Shazina Masud — Creativity in Solving Large Scale Social Problems
New Podcast Episode of Creative Flow: Thinkers and Change Agents
We are sharing the podcast and transcription of the twentieth episode of the Creative Flow: Thinkers and Change Agents Podcast featuring Shazina Masud, Chief Executive Officer at the Aman Foundation, and Sindh Integrated Emergency and Health Services in Pakistan. Don’t miss this inspiring discussion of how to use creative problem solving to deal with social issues such as hunger, nutrition, healthcare, and education, by focusing on people and defining the problem correctly.
Listen to the Podcast:
Hosts Kim Marie McKernan and Anthony Billoni share their favorite quotes from the guests.
Kim’s Favorite Quote
“It was “us” who moved the needle, not me who moved the hand.”
Shazina Masud
Tony’s Favorite Quotes
“ You must understand that every change model or leader is leading people. Unless you focus on the people, none of these theories or models work.”
Shazina Masud
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Hello, this is the 20th episode in the creative flow podcast series, hosted by Anthony Billoni and Kim Marie McKernan. It features discussions with thinkers and change agents important to the science of creativity.
ANTHONY BILLONI
We would like to welcome Shazina Masud, Chief Executive Officer at the Amman Foundation, and Sindh Integrated Emergency and Health Services. She’s a graduate of the master’s program at the International Center for Studies in Creativity, SUNY Buffalo State. In her current role, she leads an organization of 700 people to provide state-of-the-art ambulance and emergency services in Karachi, Pakistan, offering advanced emergency care for people who previously had no access. She’s worked worldwide and applied creative problem-solving in a range of commercial and social sector organizations. Welcome, Shazi.
SHAZINA MASUD
Thank you very much, Tony, for that introduction. Hello, Kim
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Hello. Let’s get into it. So, can you please share with us the story of how you became involved in deliberate creativity?
SHAZINA MASUD
Well, my inspiration came from my cousin. She taught us about creativity; she was a great inspiration to us. Her name is Ismet Mamnoon, and she is the one who first suggested Creativity to me and to my cousin, who later also was a graduate of ICSC, Romana Hema. I think the timing was perfect because I had been working in the social sector by that time for five years. One of the things that I realized was that we keep on doing the same thing repeatedly. Still, we expect different results, you know, and the world community, the global community, spends millions of dollars towards the social sector, trying to create some social impact. But if that dollar doesn’t make that impact, it’s sad. So, for me, creativity became essential because of my work.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
That’s beautiful. Of course, Izzy was one of our first podcast guests, and she’s beloved in the community. So that’s a great story.
ANTHONY BILLONI
She’s terrific, definitely terrific, inspirer, and very, very generous with her knowledge and skill. Shazi, please describe how you’re using creative problem-solving in your organization to achieve profitability and grow your services.
SHAZINA MASUD
So, as I said, since I work in the social sector, it’s a nonprofit organization, profitability has an entirely different meaning to us. So that is improving lives and creating some social impact and whatever work we are doing. When I joined our foundation and this new organization, it was really at the cost of being a funded organization to a self-sustainable organization. Not understanding where we were, I did take on that challenge. I was so fortunate that I was doing my master’s at that time. I came across this change leadership model, which is John Kotter’s Change Leadership Model, which has eight steps. I followed that. I followed one of the companies that I was working on or researching, the Lego Foundation. They had gone through this fundamental change, as well, around 2012, 2013. I learned so much from Dr. Cabra, and from what I was reading, and what I was experiencing. To me, I think that was the creative application of creativity that in those eight months, I used everything that I was learning, and I applied it to what was happening to us. The result was that we did make that pivot; we are self-sustainable. We are restructured, both financially and manpower-wise. So, a huge success.
ANTHONY BILLONI
That’s, that’s fantastic. We always love to hear the story of taking the theoretical part of creativity, not only seeing it applied but the downstream success story because so often as facilitators, we’re not there for the wins; we get there for the here’s the prediction of the victory. Then, weeks months later, something happens. So, congratulations.
SHAZINA MASUD
Thank you. I mean, I think it’s also about what happens on a day-to-day basis. It’s not only about what you were doing or a unique experience; it is how it becomes part of who you are as a leader; also, that creativity helps you on a day-to-day basis. For me, I think two things become my go-to when I’m talking to the person in front of me. Especially if it’s the first few times, I am trying to place them in the Thinking Skills Model and trying to understand where they are on the Foursight Thinking Profile. That helps me to communicate with this person so that we can collaborate better. I would never have thought of doing that. Till I, you know, till I learned about creativity. So, to me, that has been huge. The other thing is to focus on the problem through creative problem solving; understanding what the problem is, has helped me tremendously. I think it has helped my team tremendously.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
So, what are some success stories you have experienced using creativity in your career?
SHAZINA MASUD
To continue from what I was saying, I think one of the biggest successes was, of course, this managing that change, pivoting the organization. But a lot of it is also about designing new kinds of programs, right? So, like I said, trying to do the same thing repeatedly will not get us where we want to go. Trying to educate all your stakeholders on what creativity is about and suggesting new ways of arriving at a solution has been very fulfilling, very satisfying, because, you know, you see that “aha” moment. So even when you’re talking to the government, or you’re talking to your partners, or you’re talking within your organization, I’ll give you an example. We have a business review meeting every Monday because we are heavily operational, and generally, my head of operations will conduct that meeting. But sometimes, I go there, and I sit with them because it helps them understand what is happening day-to-day; it’s not only about strategy but connecting the strategy with the operation.
We sit there, and we are talking about things, and I can tell them to look at a problem a different way. The solution comes then for me to create a problem-solving process. The whole focus of creativity has helped me not only on my strategic side, not only in change management but also in teaching my people the importance of defining the problem correctly. Yeah, I think that has been a success.
ANTHONY BILLONI
That’s awesome that you’ve taken the full use of creative problem solving and plugged it in as a meta-tool and technique into the organization. It’s not just let’s pull it off the shelf because we’ve got a problem. Instead, let’s say let’s use it all the time so that we’re always focused on challenges and not that it rises to the point of being a complex problem. So, building on that, you’ve seen the value of putting creativity into all aspects of the organization. Why do you see creativity functioning within the nonprofit sector? What advantages does it bring?
SHAZINA MASUD
There are two things relating it again to the previous question. I told you is that from being a funded organization, we were going into being a sustainable organization.
With the limited resources that are available to us, we were able to run not only the same operation but increase the impact of our ambulance services. That was through just creatively looking at every aspect of the problem, right.
But specifically for the nonprofit sector, I think creativity is essential. Because what we consider to be straightforward problems of hunger and nutrition and education and health are just loaded words. Why? Because they’re dealing with people, and people are diverse, and they are diverse because of the culture, because of where they are, the geography, the weather, the climate, everything that impacts them. If we try and do the same thing for every one of them, it’s not going to create a solution. You must contextualize. You have to be creative about your solutions. The problem is the same. It is the lack of education in Africa. In Asia, we suffer from it because we do not get the education we need. But how we address that need is very, very different.
As part of my course, I did a project for the education of street children. Because in Pakistan, that’s a huge problem. Families get the space from the villages because there’s not enough water or it’s not viable for them to do whatever they were doing for the past 50 years or 60 years. They come into the cities and have no employment, and the children then become street kids. They have nothing to do. They can’t go to school; they don’t have the money; they don’t have a family structure, which they can rely on. I made this model, which takes a lot from Latin America, as well, and from other Asian countries, on how to customize that education for street kids. I believe it can be done. Right? But that is not the model that you would choose for low-income kids who have income where they can afford to go to schools. Right? Their solution will be different. So, I think that creativity is critical for the nonprofit sector to stretch out those resources and to be able to set them and adapt them to the actual need of the person or the people of the community that you’re serving.
ANTHONY BILLONI
I think what I also hear you doing is making the most of the data gathering step where you’re first. I was surprised to hear you say these simple problems of hunger and poverty. I never quite thought of them as superficial. But then you went right ahead and said that the difference within those problems is the people and then did data gathering. You made a fascinating distinction: someone with little money is not the same as someone with no money, yet someone in America would probably look at them as the same situation. I think that’s excellent in that what CPS promotes is, there are differences, and all differences should be paid attention to.
SHAZINA MASUD
Absolutely.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Let’s move to your work as a leader. What advice do you have for other leaders in using creativity for change leadership?
SHAZINA MASUD
So, one thing that really, I learned during these two and a half years that I worked with, you know, all the great professors there. It was, again, coming from Pakistan, and having been educated in the local educational system, we’re here, let’s say, I was fortunate. I studied in very good general, universities and colleges and everything. But what I noticed in terms of the way creativity is taught is the immense flexibility that every individual must be who they are. Right? To be their person and mold whatever they’re leaning towards what they are doing and who they are.
The way I learned creativity is very different from one of my very close classmates who was a housemate from Carolina. She was running a business and what she invites from it was very different from what I did because I was looking at my situation, my country. She was looking at hers. My advice to leaders would be whatever you learn in creativity or outside it even, you know, there are such popular change models, emotion, and this and that and every five years something comes up. Then everyone runs after it, Six Sigma; whatever it is, you must contextualize it. You must understand that every change model or leader is leading people. Unless you focus on the people, none of these theories or models work. What I loved about Kotter’s Change Model was that he made people the center. It was not my way or the highway. It was everything shared with the crew. It was us who moved the needle, not me who moved the hand. I just feel that you must be very aware of what kind of model or strategy you’re adopting. Not only should it be contextual, but it should also suit the people that you’re going to work with for it to be effective.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
That’s amazing. When you think about it here, you studied internationally and then applied it in your home. Right? That’s what we all need to do. Take those big ideas and make the change, where we’re able to.
ANTHONY BILLONI
I almost feel like we’re hearing the answer to this next question in your previous responses, but I feel like maybe this could lead to a tightening of the focus. What do you see as the future of creativity? Where would you like to see our community, our community of creative professionals, focus on in the end, and why?
SHAZINA MASUD
I ultimately knew that when I took this up, it was a conscious decision, but I didn’t realize how much research was at the back of creativity. Right? So much work that had been done was a pleasure. It was so enlightening to read all that research and see how invention had progressed over time. It’s understanding and the tools and everything. But I do feel that a lot of the work is focused on teaching. I worked with different cohorts; I figured that most people were coming into creative work from the point of view of education. They were trying to instill creativity in education. There’s also much emphasis on facilitation. I feel that more research needs to be done on the social sector and more research on how creativity is effective in nonprofits. Precisely the questions you were asking me, and what I’m telling you is a sample of one. Right? You need much more than that to come up with a scientific conclusion on what kind of creativity would impact the nonprofit social sector. I think that would be wonderful. With all this emphasis on Environment and Climate and all of those things, I think this is just the right time to do it.
ANTHONY BILLONI
I feel like you are beginning to take a leadership role in that. I seems like; I feel like you have the energy and the smarts to do it as well.
SHAZINA MASUD
Thank you. I would love to.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Yes, I think some of Dr. Cabra’s work in Myanmar is an excellent example of that. He was that was a previous episode we did as well. I think that he was also showing the way.
SHAZINA MASUD
Yes, this is a great example. He did it while we were with him. Mary Walsh was with me and she is from the social sector. She has a great experience. I think she would be a great ambassador for something like that.
ANTHONY BILLONI
To bring that back, they validate what you’re saying. The stories that we made into two episodes because there was so much material. The second episode was just the stories that the students brought back from their experiences. Nearly every one of them was about a person. So, your point about it being, especially in the world of social change, I couldn’t agree more with that. I think that when we talk about capitalism, social change is about human capital. Your point about creativity being about people, especially in this sector, is spot on.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
When we spoke earlier, Shazi, you shared some numbers about the impact and the number of calls you could take after applying creativity. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
SHAZINA MASUD
Well, so we have this call center. It’s a telehealth platform that we run. It’s a 24 by seven call center. We’ve got trained nurses and professionals operating it, and we’ve had it for six or seven years. We were trying very, very hard to make sure because we’ve got trained people because we know it’s an issue for people in Pakistan to go to doctors or clinics. After all, transportation costs are very high. So, we wanted to make it work, but our call volumes were very low, and we threw money at it. But somehow, monthly, we would get around 3000 calls, then we started looking at it from another point of view. We leveraged what was happening in COVID, where people were housebound. We collaborated with the government and WHO (World Health Organization), and because of that advice that we are giving and because of the areas that we are now covering, we have 1000 calls per day.
We had to really scale up our work and the people and this training happening, whatever. But now it has come to that level where you know, where we are doing the work you wanted to do. All of that came out because we got together and started thinking about what we were missing. What we were missing was that we were not dealing with the uppermost issue or the most critical issue in health for the people we want to connect to us. Right? Because if you say, Okay, if you have flu, please call me up. They have a million other options. But if you want one vaccination, call us. We’ll tell you how, how we can manage it, or you have COVID in your housebound, we’ll help you out and let you know how to handle yourself. This is how we got into it. Now, even though COVID is down, we’ve gone through a third wave. Nationally we have around 700 cases. We are still getting those 800–900 calls a day.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
I think that’s a fantastic story.
SHAZINA MASUD
Yeah, it’s fantastic.
ANTHONY BILLONI
If you build it, they will. Yeah.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
If you build it for them, they will come. Yeah. Beautiful.
SHAZINA MASUD
Yeah, exactly.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
So, our last question, which we ask all our speakers, is, tell us about your creative flow.
SHAZINA MASUD
So, my creative flow is my passion for problem-solving. I ideate a lot. Then I want to implement immediately; I just want to see the change happening. I’m very passionate about social causes. So that is my flow. I see a situation happening where I can pitch in, even if it doesn’t affect me directly or It’s not my work, as they say, right? It’s not directly within my scope; I don’t care. I’ll put in my time; I’ll put in my effort. I go for it. And I will pitch in with my ideas and everything. So, to me, I think that is my field. It’s the passion that comes from solving problems and solving social issues.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Thank you. That’s beautiful.
ANTHONY BILLONI
What could be better?
SHAZINA MASUD
Yeah, I feel very fortunate to do something that I never imagined I would be doing. I didn’t think I; I was drawn to it. But again, I think because you’re reflective and you think you find your parts, you find the right place for yourself. And there’s nothing better than that.
ANTHONY BILLONI
Yeah. What Adam Grant talks about in Give and Take is that the people who find tremendous success in life are not just the givers, but the givers who have that sort of clear view of a path. They don’t just give indiscriminately. They’re able to give based on their skills, passion, and awareness, that alertness that you’ve been talking about through the whole call. And it’s not only fulfilling into the world, but it then becomes self-fulfilling, much along the lines of what you’ve been saying. Well, you brought a fascinating use of creativity and powerful social energy at the same time to this call today. So, we’re very, very appreciative. Shazi, thank you so much for joining us.
SHAZINA MASUD
It’s been a pleasure. Thank you for talking to me. I enjoyed that.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
Thank you. Shazi. Awesome. Thank you.
ANTHONY BILLONI
We’d like to thank everyone for listening. This is Anthony Billoni.
KIM MARIE MCKERNAN
And Kim Marie McKernan
ANTHONY BILLONI
We invite you to tune in again to the creative flow series. We hope you will translate your creative flow into action and that your actions change the world
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