Let The Record Show: R.A. the Rugged Man & A-F-R-O
Classic hip-hop and R&B dominate the crates of the seasoned MC and his buzzing young protégé
For our third episode of Let the Record Show, Warren Peace and I met up with twenty-five year rap veteran R.A. the Rugged Man and his up-and-coming 19-year-old understudy A-F-R-O (All Flows Reach Out), during their Las Vegas stop on their Definition of a Rap Flow tour.
As the story goes, A-F-R-O — who has been called “the future of old school hip-hop” — became a huge fan of R.A. the Rugged Man after hearing his verse on “Uncommon Valor: A Vietnam Story.” Boasting over 2.3 million views on YouTube, the song is told from the perspective of R.A. the Rugged Man’s father, Sgt. John Andrew Thorburn. While on duty during the Vietnam war, Thorburn was exposed to Agent Orange, later causing birth defects in R.A.’s siblings. The 2006 song was met with huge critical acclaim, shaping the tastes of a young A-F-R-O who has said, “He’s been my favorite emcee since I was 13.”
Fast-forward to 2014, when R.A. was holding a “Definition of a Rap Flow” contest, inviting aspiring emcees to spit over his track of the same name. Also judged by Talib Kweli, Murs, and Vinnie Paz, A-F-R-O slaughtered the instrumental, and “won the contest before it even ended,” in R.A.’s words. With a deep, bass-heavy voice and a breathless, multi-syllabic delivery, A-F-R-O shocked his old school peers with an amazing, technically skilled performance. Through DJ Premier, A-F-R-O would star in VH1’s throwback hip-hop drama The Breaks as rapper D Rome, and last year he teamed with producer Marco Polo for the A-F-R-O Polo LP, released on Duck Down Records.
R.A. and A-F-R-O agreed to sit down with us for Let the Record Show to discuss their favorite songs of all time, most of which we were able to track down on vinyl in time for the episode. Some last minute schedule changes found us shooting the interview in a cramped hotel room at the El Cortez, resulting in four large men sitting on the edge of a bed. It’s a living.
Nevertheless, the duo came to the table with a handful of incredibly dope selections, representing some of the highest points of the golden era of hip-hop. Watch the full video or read the abridged text below. Thank you for your continued support!
1.Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth “T.R.O.Y. (They Reminisce Over You)” • Mecca and the Soul Brother, Elektra (1992)
Mike Pizzo: We’re just going to go for the jugular with “T.R.O.Y.,” which is one of your favorite cuts of all time. A-F-R-O, tell us about that song.
A-F-R-O: Man, I would say I was around 12 or 13 years old when I first heard it. I was going through a time where I wasn’t really feeling anything during school and everything. That song was a major outlet. I heard that song and I fell in love with hip-hop.
Mike Pizzo: We could make a case for this being in the top 5 hip-hop songs of all time. Would you agree, R.A.?
R.A. the Rugged Man: Oh, that argument could be made. And the argument could be made that it’s the greatest beat ever made. I don’t think it’s the greatest beat ever made, but it’s close.
Mike Pizzo: I also wanted to bring up that Heavy D & The Boyz introduced Pete Rock & C.L. Smooth to the world.
R.A. the Rugged Man: That’s my favorite group of all time, one of them. Yeah, you know that, knowledge.
Mike Pizzo: And Pete really sewed this album together brilliantly, because he had those little interludes, with those bits of flavor.
A-F-R-O: I love the beat interludes. I love those, I love those.
2. Brand Nubian “Step to the Rear” • One for All, Elektra (1990)
R.A. the Rugged Man: Whooooooa.
A-F-R-O: I own that. I have that joint on my wall at house.
R.A. the Rugged Man: That’s one of the greatest albums of all time. That’s arguably the greatest hip-hop album of all time.
Mike Pizzo: I would debate and say [Public Enemy] It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back…
R.A. the Rugged Man: Oh, that’s arguably the greatest album of all time too. No, no, Nation of Millions is arguably the greatest album. I’m just saying, these are the ones that are of such a high caliber that the argument could be made. Nation of Millions definitely changed everything.
Warren Peace: What was your cut off of this album?
R.A. the Rugged Man: Well, Puba was game changing at the time, so “Step to the Rear,” of course. But I like every song on it. Every song on the record.
Warren Peace: I think mine was “All for One.” The party hit was “Slow Down,” but…
R.A. the Rugged Man: Legendary.
Mike Pizzo: And this was back when Sadat was “Derrick X.”
R.A. the Rugged Man: They dropped the bomb. Lyrically, Jamar went crazy on that one. And I like the fun shit too, like “Grand Puba, Positive and L.G.” I like every record on that album.
3.Big Daddy Kane “Set It Off” • Long Live the Kane, Cold Chillin’ Records (1988)
Pizzo: Next up we have Big Daddy Kane Long Live the Kane LP and damn, this is a great album. Your cut off of here was…
R.A. the Rugged Man: “Set it Off.” Well, I like “Ain’t No Half Steppin’,” “Raw”…
A-F-R-O: “Set it Off” was the first Daddy Kane song I ever heard.
R.A. the Rugged Man: All of it, “Long Live the Kane.” I even like his singing shit. “You’ve got me waiting…”
Mike Pizzo: This is so dope. And he’s rapping incredibly fast right here.
R.A. the Rugged Man: Not just fast, though. Clarity and vocals, with the fast speed. And the syllable slaughters and the lyrics. All of these bullshit rappers today, still don’t sound this good. They’re all thin and whiny and gross.
Mike Pizzo: And I always felt that we turned on him. The audience turned on him when he did the Madonna book and the Prince of Darkness album. People don’t really do that to rappers anymore…Even if you drop a wack album, they just reinvent you. In the case of Kane, he just had those two or three albums [and the audience moved on.]
R.A. the Rugged Man: But that was the era, though. Rap was still discovering where it was going. If your style didn’t change at all within a year or two, you were done. Even if you were the most lyrical, people would be like “Oh, this is a new sound that I’ve never heard,” and then the labels would push that. It wasn’t like they could go on the Internet and say, “Hey, here’s my new shit. Buy my shit on iTunes!”
4.Kool G. Rap & DJ Polo “Poison” • Road to the Riches, Cold Chillin’ Records (1988)
Mike Pizzo: So keeping with the Juice Crew vibe, another cut you pulled was Kool G. Rap & Polo “Poison”… Tell us about this cut.
R.A. the Rugged Man: Well, they used to play it on the radio. I taped it on cassette tape. I had never heard a rapper so ferocious in my life and was just like “Nobody can rap better than that guy. I’m done, why the fuck do I even rap?” I was like 14, 12, or 13 years old or something.
I never knew years later that he would become a close friend of mine. There were nights out where G. Rap and my father were chillin’. Hanging out together. So that’s my idol right there. That’s everybody’s idol.
Mike Pizzo: I think Nas, also. NORE, definitely.
R.A. the Rugged Man: Everybody, not just them.
Mike Pizzo: And this song “Poison,” was also sampled for Bel Biv DeVoe’s “Poison,” as well. How did you feel about that?
R.A. the Rugged Man: I loved it. New Edition is one of the greatest groups of all time. And Bel Biv DeVoe, it was incredible. When “Poison” came out — the Bel Biv DeVoe version — I was like “Yo, they sampled G Rap!” It was one of my favorite songs of that year.
Mike Pizzo: Oh I loved it. It was a party cut. The snares on there? That was kind of like the pinnacle of New Jack Swing. That was its highest point.
R.A. the Rugged Man: You know the highest point of New Jack Swing, to me, is all of Teddy’s [Riley] work. I think “My Prerogative” was a higher point than “Poison.” Teddy at his peak.
Mike Pizzo: I feel you, but I feel like “Poison” just pushed it higher.
R.A. the Rugged Man: I don’t think so, but that’s an opinion. Or do you remember a group called Today?… Teddy had a song called “Him or Me,” that he produced on Today’s first album. That was the pinnacle to me.
Warren Peace: Yep…That was when New Jack Swing was in full…
R.A. the Rugged Man: I’m a big New Jack Swing fan and a lot of my authentic hip-hop people fought against it at that time. They were like “Naaaaahhh,” and I was like “Are you kidding me?!”
5. Guy “Groove Me” • Guy, Uptown/MCA Records (1988)
Mike Pizzo: So while we’re on the New Jack Swing tip, Guy “Groove Me,” which is another one of your cuts, R.A, which is kind of surprising…
R.A. the Rugged Man: This is actually my favorite album of all time. My favorite album ever made. It’s the album I’ve listened to the most in my whole life. Probably 500 times.
Warren Peace: This is an incredible album. I can attest to that. This album had “I Like”…
R.A. the Rugged Man: Every song is a single and every song is a masterpiece…The cuts, the scratches, the New Jack Swing, with the funk, the soul… It was taking black music to another level, that nobody had seen before.
Warren Peace: Without a doubt. It was that bridge between hip-hop and soft R&B.
R.A. the Rugged Man: And was too hard for the pop charts, it was too soulful and black for the pop charts and it still sold a million copies.
Warren Peace: The only pop single was “I Like.” That’s the only one that went to radio.
R.A. the Rugged Man: But it was still too R&B for them.
Warren Peace: But you’re right, every song was a single, except for one of the slow songs. They had various 12-inches.
R.A. the Rugged Man: They had eight or nine singles and a bunch of videos.
Warren Peace: This album and this song started a whole revolution.
R.A. the Rugged Man: And then they gave Teddy like six million dollars to do one side of a Michael Jackson album. But that was more after “My Prerogative,” because it blew up on a commercial level. Bobby had the bad boy, pop music attitude.
Mike Pizzo: And this was before Puffy was at Uptown, right?
Warren Peace: Yes.
Mike Pizzo: But you could see how much Puffy copied Teddy Riley and the polished look that he basically brought to hip-hop. Prior to that, the R&B guys were real polished with the nice outfits on. Then Puffy came in and tried to give that same aesthetic to hip-hop and really polish everything up.
R.A. the Rugged Man: That’s that Harlem shit. Those boys are from Harlem. Harlem influences Harlem.
Warren Peace: But Puffy did not have the musical genius that Teddy had.
R.A. the Rugged Man: Nah. Teddy’s a musical genius, but what Puffy had was the marketing genius. Puffy’s a genius too, just not a musical genius.
6. Madvillain (Doom and Madlib) • Madvillainy, Stones Throw Records (2004)
Mike Pizzo: This is Madvillain, MF Doom and Madlib. Man…A-F-R-O, this is one of your favorite albums.
A-F-R-O: Oh, absolutely. It’s in my top five albums of all time. I own the instrumental vinyl and the album LP.
Mike Pizzo: When we were running HipHopSite.Com, we gave this a perfect 5 out of 5 rating. We were one of the few publications to really get behind it. Eventually, as time went on, everybody was like “Oh, Madvillainy is such a classic…!” Do you have a favorite cut on here?
A-F-R-O: Man, I love it front-to-back. But I can name a bunch. “Figaro,” “Strange Ways,” “Raid,” “Rhinestone Cowboy,” there’s a bunch of joints on there I love. The whole album.
Mike Pizzo: Talk about Doom’s style. Has he influenced yours?
A-F-R-O: Oh, Doom is a major influence on my rhyming. “Wild long Islander…” I just love that voice and that lazy, ill flow. I think it’s ill as fuck. He was a huge pioneer in that lazy flow, but would still kill it rhyming.
Mike Pizzo: I noticed a lot on this record, the title of the song would be a word or sentence in the actual lyrics. It’s not like he’d have a hook.
A-F-R-O: Like if the song was called “Figaro,” he’d be like “Figaro, Figaro.” Doom to me isn’t really a huge hook guy. More like an ill, two or three minute joint.
7. Gang Starr “Moment of Truth” • Moment of Truth, Noo Trybe/Virgin Records (1998)
Mike Pizzo: Now we have Gang Starr “Moment of Truth,” another one your favorites, A-F-R-O.
A-F-R-O: It’s extremely personal for me. I was going through some mad bullshit when I discovered it. It literally got me through a bunch of my days when I was going through some heavy, heavy shit. This album was there for me majorly, straight up, front-to-back.
Mike Pizzo: I know this cut, the title track “Moment of Truth,” is really special to Premier, because at that time, Gang Starr was kind of breaking up. Guru had a court case against him, which is what the album cover is about, with them in court. Preem basically called Guru up after not speaking for a while and was like “Look, I got your back. I’m there for you.” Preem went to court, basically there supporting Guru, and then they came back together and made this album. This track has got a real emotional, somber beat.
A-F-R-O: I’m going to be completely honest, this song has made me cry a few times, where I felt exactly the words that Guru was saying.
Mike Pizzo: There’s that message from that girl at the beginning that really sets it off. You really feel it in your heart. It’s the same with “T.R.O.Y.,” another the song that hits you and really makes you feel something.
A-F-R-O: Absolutely, absolutely.
Mike Pizzo: Rest in Peace, Guru.
8.GZA/Genius • Liquid Swords, Geffen Records (1995)
Mike Pizzo: Now we’re onto GZA/Genius’ Liquid Swords. Man, classic Wu album. Talk about that.
A-F-R-O: My favorite album of all time, personally. I remember I was in 7th grade in the back of the class with headphones on, bumping “4th Chamber” and all of the joints, front-to-back. I discovered Liquid Swords and the atmosphere of the album, I identified to that world of that grimy, dirty, nasty shit.
Mike Pizzo: This era of Wu-Tang, man. During this time period, they could do no wrong. They were dropping these albums that were front-to-back, perfect records. Enter the Wu-Tang, Cuban Linx, this… arguably Tical and Return to the 36 Chambers also fall in that vein, maybe not as celebrated as these, but the production was top notch.
A-F-R-O: Yeah, I think this has absolutely some of the best production on a hip-hop album of all time.
Mike Pizzo: So many great tracks on this album. One of them is “Labels,” where GZA did that thing where he listed every record label. And actually I wanted to connect this back to you, R.A. He had “Labels” and you had yours as Crustified Dibbs…
R.A. the Rugged Man: Mine was first. In fact, I was like “Hey GZA, did you listen to my shit, man?” It was like a year later. “Did you listen to that song on Hot 97…?” (laughs)
Mike Pizzo: And let me ask you this, I think I remember reading somewhere years ago, that song “Every Record Label Sucks Dick” was the reason they shelved the [Crustified Dibbs] album.
R.A. the Rugged Man: Nah, that’s not true. If all it was was a record, I’d be okay. They shelved it because of me. I wasn’t normal.
Mike Pizzo: Yeah, I remember hearing legendary tales. But also you had Biggie on the album. Where was Biggie at in his career when he jumped on that record?
R.A. the Rugged Man: We did one before he started taking off, and then we did one for Jive right when he started taking off, a little bit. I had known him for quite a few years before he blew up.
Mike Pizzo: Since that record got shelved, did they ever re-use that verse later on some posthumous Biggie album?
R.A. the Rugged Man: They wanted to. In fact, Dante [Ross] and Faith [Evans] hit me up about something, something, so I’m not sure. But I own it, it’s mine. Fuck them… Not Faith and Dante. Fuck Jive.
9.Al Green “Let’s Stay Together” • Let’s Stay Together, Hi Records (1971) // Pulp Fiction Soundtrack, Geffen Records (1994)
Mike Pizzo: Okay, now we have the Pulp Fiction soundtrack, picture disc. Great, incredible soundtrack curated by Quentin Tarantino. Originally you gave me that you wanted Al Green “Let’s Stay Together,” but this is such a dope piece of vinyl, I figured we should show this piece of vinyl on Let the Record Show… So tell us about Al Green “Let’s Stay Together.”
A-F-R-O: I heard “How Can You Mend a Broken Heart” through the Book of Eli. I watched The Book of Eli in theaters and that song came on and I was like “That song is incredible, I gotta look that song up.” Then the first time I ever heard “Let’s Stay Together” was in Pulp Fiction and I was like “That’s a fucking awesome song.” I remember the first time I heard “Let’s Stay Together,” I bumped it over and over and over for like a good five hours straight. No breaks, at all.
Warren Peace: This is interesting, because this song came out in 1971 and the first time you heard this song was in Pulp Fiction. So you, being younger, when you hear these songs, you just go “I gotta find out more about this,” and you research the album. Did you go back and listen to the album?
A-F-R-O: Yeah, I actually listened to the whole album of Let’s Stay Together, with “How Can You Mend a Broken Heart” on it.
10. Super Lover Cee & Casanova Rud “Girls Act Stupid-aly” • Girls I Got ’Em Locked, Elektra Records (1988)
Mike Pizzo: Now we have Super Lover Cee & Casanova Rud Girls I Got ’Em Locked LP.
R.A. the Rugged Man: One of my favorites.
Mike Pizzo: I personally like the title track.
Warren Peace: That was my cut!
R.A. the Rugged Man: “Girls, I Got ’Em Locked” with the O’Jays sample.
A-F-R-O: That was ill, man.
R.A. the Rugged Man: “Girls Act Stupid-aly when I’m pumpin’ em!” Because when I was a kid, a little teenage kid, 12 or something, that was the funniest, fly shit “Girls act stupid-aly, when I’m pumpin’ ‘em!” They rhymed like nobody had ever rhymed before.
I just put A-F-R-O onto this song two or three months ago and he lost his fucking mind. Then he downloaded it himself and was going crazy.
Mike Pizzo: Embarrassingly, I first found out about these guys from their Yo! MTV Raps trading cards. Remember that?
R.A. the Rugged Man: I remember they had one.
Mike Pizzo: I was like “Who are these guys?” Then somehow I stumbled upon “Girls, I Got ’Em Locked”…
R.A. the Rugged Man: Yeah, you should be embarrassed, because they were the shit way before that fucking card man.
Mike Pizzo: I bow my head in shame. (laughs)
Listen to all of the songs talked about in this episode in the Spotify playlist below.
