Unlearning Narratives of
the Marginalised Communities
A Discussion Room session with Sophia Sun
Sophia Sun works as a product manager on a mixed reality collaboration tool for Microsoft HoloLens. Along with Da Eun Kim, she co-produced and co-hosts, Bamboo and Glass, a podcast where 2 Asian American womxn highlight perspectives worth sharing. Her podcast covers many topics relevant to Asian Americans and others alike, such as navigating intersectional identities and overcoming challenges particular to Women in Tech.
How did Da Eun Kim and you meet? Why did the two of you start Bamboo & Glass?
We studied in the same high school and we met when she was in her senior year and I was in my junior year, through a common friend.
We studied in different colleges and we were intentional about keeping in touch- holding each other accountable to reflect on mistakes and improve. After graduating, we ended up in different cities, and we had three realisations that motivated us to start our podcast:
- We both were very fortunate to have each other in our lives and other friends as well, who was brilliant but also thoughtful, kind, and intentional. It almost felt selfish to keep our friends to ourselves and we wanted to share their stories and insights and wisdom with the world.
- We had a lot of questions on our minds — How do I succeed as an early in career WOC in tech? What does changing careers look like? We recognized our privilege and luxury in even contemplating these questions. Also, we didn’t see anyone else talking about these difficult and important topics…so we thought we’d do it!
- We had just transitioned from the known rhythms of college to figure out the unknown rhythms and priorities of life post-grad. Podcasts helped us keep in touch with each others’ thoughts.
What was the intent behind Bamboo and Glass?
We started Bamboo and Glass Podcast with the intent to be a platform for highlighting stories and perspectives from people of marginalized communities — stories that anyone can learn from. Topics we’ve explored include learning and unlearning definitions of success; navigating early-in-career challenges; advocating for ourselves in professional and romantic relationships; navigating the tension among our passions, values, and needs; healthy femininity and masculinity; becoming politically active and aware, and more.
“We hope that by tuning in, listeners feel seen and heard, and receive actionable tips for navigating various challenges”
Over a period of time, we hope that by tuning in, listeners feel seen and heard, and receive actionable tips for navigating various challenges. We also hope our stories expand all listeners’ imaginations of who Asian Americans can be.
As an Asian-American, what narratives about marginalised communities have you unlearnt, both in life and through your podcast?
Da Eun: The main thing I’ve been unlearning is the American Dream wherein this is the land of opportunity and my job is to reap the fruits and find success. Growing up, my understanding of “success” was so limited and exclusive, that by the time I was out of college and in my first full-time job, I was probably the most lost I had ever been, and my mental health had hit rock bottom. I made it, so shouldn’t I be grateful? I used to think my pride came from my achievements, but now I realize that that is a blanket of (in)security created by white supremacy, with me as an Asian American being closer to white proximity. Luckily, I met some incredible friends along the way, who have been challenging this notion of “success” and what your life purpose should be, and these people have grounded me. Now, I see “success” in my everyday life, being surrounded by the very best people, who empower me but also continue to challenge my views and beliefs.
Also, I remember when I was back in Korea, my cousin invited me to his art showcase, and his art pieces were actually about 9/11 and Obama. I remember being shaken by his art pieces, thinking “how does he know these events?” And that’s because even people in Korea are taught American history, and yet I knew absolutely nothing about Korea. So I think now, I’m in a constant uphill battle to find the information, stories, and knowledge about my people’s history, and while I’m unlearning how American schooling should’ve taught me everything I know, I’m able to see the value of sharing this knowledge with my communities.
“Diverse stories that communicate the variety and nuance of people’s lived experiences are powerful because they motivate people — especially those in power — to interrogate biases and advocate for people with unfamiliar lived experiences, people who they may never meet in real life.”
Sophia: A narrative that a lot of immigrant families are brought up with — college is the most transformative, life-defining 4 years. Growing up, all my talents and abilities were framed in getting me into a good college. When I struggled academically and emotionally in college, I panicked — subconsciously, I felt like I was squandering the 4 years of my life that I was supposed to pack in a lifetimes’ worth of learning and growing. Several recent conversations with guests challenged this subconscious mindset. We talked to many people who tackled huge, novel challenges after graduating from college — switching careers from professional violinist to computer science, or from pharmacy to acting. It was so powerful to talk to people who looked like me, who likely shared many of my assumptions and upbringing, who nevertheless took significant risks in their careers and gave themselves the permission to explore a part of themselves far after they completed their undergraduate course.
Why is it important to be vocal about the diverse lived-experiences of people from marginalised communities?
Diverse stories that communicate the variety and nuance of people’s lived experiences are powerful because they motivate people — especially those in power — to interrogate biases and advocate for people with unfamiliar lived experiences, people who they may never meet in real life. Perpetuating narrow narratives and stereotypes is powerful in a dangerous way, but telling diverse stories about marginalized communities is one way to give power to marginalized communities. During the past few weeks, as Black Lives Matter has gained international attention, something I’ve been learning is that each individuals’ beliefs about others, even those they may never meet, shape decisions that enable or hinder others’ well-being. For example, compared to most other people around the world at my age, I have a high level of disposable income or purchasing power. Hearing stories — not just facts, but stories — of how Black people in the US have been barred from wealth accumulation really moved me to interrogate my subconscious bias about Black folks and make decisions that support Black entrepreneurs, like buying products from them directly. I’ve been learning that buying directly from Black-owned businesses is important because its a way of directing attention and resources towards a group of people who have traditionally been disadvantaged by a lack of generational wealth.
Narrow narratives based on stereotypes not only limit the imagination and empathy of the majority, but also the imagination and the self-empathy of the marginalized. In contrast, diverse, authentic stories about marginalized folks expand everyone’s imagination about who marginalized folks can be — what jobs they can succeed in, what roles they can play in their relationships, what actions they can take to advocate for themselves. A powerful example is a story we got to share from a gay southeast Asian man. He grew up with a very narrow narrative of masculinity, which included dating women and refraining from taboo and silly conversations about emotions. However, he knew from a young age that he is gay, and that threatened the only narrative of masculinity he knew, which was a very narrow one. To compensate and prove his masculinity, he felt the need to act up in class and eventually get involved with drugs. One takeaway I had from this story is that if people like him were familiar with stories that celebrate the gay Asian American man identity if he knew a more expanded narrative of masculinity, he would not have felt the same pressure to overcompensate for his “lacking” masculinity in unhealthy ways.
As somebody who publicly vocalizes sensitive issues, how do you receive feedback and criticism, both positive and negative?
Sophia: We just celebrated publishing 60 episodes and I still sometimes feel nervous when I share the journey to my current opinion. I’ve been surprised by how much our sincerity invites sincere feedback. One thing that contributes to that, is we invite people to DM us on IG. We never explicitly tell people NOT to comment on our posts, but we do explicitly ask people to DM us with their thoughts. And I think that prompt enables us to have conversations where neither party feels the need to flex or put the other person down just because others can see the public comment thread.
Da Eun: I love Minji Chang’s (@firstofallpod Podcast) approach, which is to be vocal, but be very explicit where you would love to know whether you are wrong. I would rather make a fool of myself publicly, own up to it, and make the change, rather than remain uncontroversial and risk never fully understanding the issues. I will say, I definitely couldn’t have done this podcast a few years ago. I was very wary of what others would think of me — for me, I think that’s what happens when I’m in the same environment for a long time i.e. the bubble of school. But post-grad, I really can’t tell you if I know of anyone else treading the same path as me, which has been exciting yet also liberating, to be able to lean into who I am and what my views are — because if others don’t share the same view as me, I need to engage in a conversation with them to better understand both perspectives, but also I can choose to leave criticism as a criticism because not all criticism is constructive. I try to observe my intent when I give criticism as well — is it because I have a need to feel like I’m right? Or is it because I genuinely see the detrimental effects of their words, and want to invite them into a conversation.
Article by Komal Jain
Interview Host: Reshma Rose Thomas
Research and curation: Komal Jain, Thommen C Lukose
