🇺🇦#BarAtWar

Volodymyr ‘Mamay” Pavlenko

Real warriors are not these lawyers who, like me, sit in the trenches and try to deliver provisions and protect ours from scratch. Real heroes are at zero.

Interview by Dima Gadomsky. Translation by Olga Panchenko. Photographs by Maria Matiashova.

Tell us why we met here?
We are here because a little further, there is a checkpoint, and the civilians are no longer allowed because this is a zone of potential hostilities, and there are many of our men in trenches. That’s why they wouldn’t let you in there.

Are you in the Armed Forces or the Territorial Defense?
I’m in the National Guard. We have an operational battalion. There is the National Guard, which ensures law and order in various territories, there, in Kyiv, in cities, and so on, and there are units of the National Guard, they are operatives engaged in hostilities. We have such a unit, it is subordinated to the Armed Forces, and in fact, I am an employee of the National Guard, mobilized to the army.

Why Mamay? [Cossack Mamay is a Ukrainian folkloric hero]
Mamay? I like this name. I have the picture with Mamay at home, so I called myself Mamay. I’ll show you later, it’s such a cool picture.

How did you meet war?
Meet? I met the war at home, woke up from the explosions. I have a house there. Everyone in Kyiv heard the explosions, and everyone woke up. But since then, these explosions have been happening here all the time, because there are a lot of ours nearby — artillery, “Grad”, and the first four days my family, children and friends, neighbors, they all ran to my house, because I have a good, protected cellar. And as soon as the alarm, everyone immediately ran to the basement. The explosions near us were from our army. I’ve already learned to tell when it is our army’s answer and when it is Russian hitting. Today there was not much.

I do not consider myself a hero at all against the background of boys who are at zero.

And just now, what was the explosion? Is it ours or not?
I just didn’t even hear it.

I understand, you don’t even pay attention to it anymore?
Yes. From our answering, plates bounce, and the gate shakes. It sucks that it scares children. So three days suffered, four, and then I said that you should not fucking sit here and sent everyone away.

Abroad or in Ukraine?
No, in Ukraine. But my parents, sister, live here, not far away, in Kyiv, in an apartment. And I left immediately… I wanted to go to the Territorial Defense, but there was a queue for three or four days. Plus, I looked at the people there — all the guys from the area who were at the place and did not go anywhere. I decided that it was better to go to a more professional level. I was a junior lieutenant in reserve. I came to the National Guard, they accepted me there. Now I am no longer a junior lieutenant but a lieutenant because I am doing something.

You are just moving up the career ladder!
Yes! (laughing) Well, we were taught for a week, and then… nobody knew where we would be sent. They thought that, like everyone, somewhere here at checkpoints near Kyiv. But we were sent to the asshole (laughs). We were told that we would have a second line. There is a frontline — it’s zero in military terminology. Zero is where you directly cut, shoot, and so on.

And you are now at zero?
We… well. We call it the “second line”. But this is the second line to which mortar shelling constantly strikes because a kilometer or two from us is already zero. And accordingly, our task is to deter a possible enemy offensive. Our people “cut” them there from scratch, then retreat so that they are not attacked. We stand on this second line. It looks like it’s in the woods, trenches, dugouts… The first day we arrived, there was fucking nothing; for 200 people, there were five shovels. We scattered, and everyone dug trenches.

Are we winning?
Eh… this is a question that is difficult to answer just like that. Look. You’ve been sitting in the woods for two weeks, and every day you get hundreds of mines that you dodge, right? Your sense of victory is quite relative. We can hardly catch the internet, the connection too. Therefore, victory is when you do not have 200 or 300. Because it happens that there are 200 or 300, and then this is not a victory. Someone goes to the city, reads the news, comes, and tells what happened. It is clear that our… we are not standing there alone, we are standing together with others… The Armed Forces, and so on. They also tell some stories. I will say this: here we stand, and here is a civil atmosphere. Nothing prevents us from talking. The atmosphere there is not civil, and it changes the feeling slightly.

Are we winning in this environment?
In this environment, the mood is to fuck to the end. Everyone understands that we will lose people. But first, we all know for sure that we lose much less, everyone wants to bury everyone who came here. There is no desire for any negotiations, everyone just wants to kill them. Ours is done by those who are at zero, we support them. We did not have fire contact with machine guns, but there were contacts — it’s mortar shelling. I drove in my car, picking up provisions, and two mines fell nearby. I don’t know how lucky I was, God forbid that all the survivors (laughing), well, that’s it.

When you think you have to shoot a person, what will you believe [at that moment]?

Absolutely nothing.

Does that scare you?
No. It’s scary when you’re in ordinary civilian life. On the first day, I saw the guy’s leg torn off by a mine, our guy. I saw our boys being killed. A mine flew into the trench, we collected them in pieces in the woods. When you see this, your perception changes.

There are excesses, misunderstandings between soldiers, but they end very quickly because everyone has a weapon. There is no time to argue for long.

What scares you the most right now? The bar of fear is now very much raised, but nevertheless — is there any fear? Is something terrifying you
Fear? Well… I want to live. This is not fear, this is the desire to live. The possibility of a nuclear threat is globally frightening. You know, there is no special fear for yourself, there is fear for your own. Relatives, children. It’s scary for them. They are far away, but this freak may reach for that red button sooner or later.

For whom or for what are you here now, on the second line? For whom did you go to the National Guard? Or for what? First of all?
I would say it’s a feeling of hopelessness because you can’t do otherwise. I couldn’t go. I knew I wanted to be here. I did not know exactly how this would happen. Once again: when I came to the National Guard, I did not say “Let me go ahead”. I said, “Let me come and help here as much as I can”. I was told that I needed to help here. Accordingly, I now help here and there. It is not that he took a machine gun and went to cut down the Chechens. It doesn’t work that way (laughs).

Well, are you in your place now, how do you feel?
I feel so. I feel that way because I help the guys a lot. As for me, I am a platoon commander. We have positions there …

How many people do you have under your control? I’m not rummaging.
Fifteen. It may be thirty during civilian time, but actually, I have fifteen. But I don’t just command a platoon — they all dug in there, sit, and have everything there. I am engaged in deliveries, I help. At first, I helped the company man, now, I help in the unit. Due to the fact that I know many people, they respond and constantly bring something there.

And who are these people in your platoon? Are they also volunteers?
No, we have a mixed platoon. We were trained in the reserve company. There are all involved in a row — there are reservists and voluntarily mobilized. But when we were sent to the frontline, we were mixed together with contractors, there are no conscripts. That is, we have only contractors, mobilized, and reservists. Accordingly, there are different people. There are dudes of 50 years old who were at war…

Are you a tough commander? Or are you a kind one?
But it’s not about toughness. It’s one thing when you’re in the barracks and say you’re tearing up the floor to walk in white socks. It doesn’t work that way there. There, everyone is trying to protect each other. The brutality there is that when mines are fired, everyone goes to the floor, that is tough (laughs). And so everyone understands everything. There are excesses, misunderstandings between soldiers, but they end very quickly because everyone has a weapon. There is no time to argue for long.

I was stabbed in the face with a Kalash at checkpoints a couple of times when I forgot my password

What bothers you the most right now or what annoys you?
It is annoying… all of my guys are annoyed with sitting in the trenches for the second week, hiding from those mines, and we are not moving forward, the command does not give any instructions, except to sit, everyone would like to go to the rotation to wash a little, because two weeks in the trenches without a shower, (laughs), and often without hot food. Everyone wants to bring themselves a little human. But I’m talking about the feelings of living people who are actually sitting in the woods under a mortar fire for the second week.

What will be a victory for you?
Impossibility to continue the war on the part of the Russians.

That is, it means that we must destroy all those who have now entered the territory of Ukraine and make their rotation impossible?
It can be anything. I am sure that our victory is not in Hostomel and not near Kharkiv, it is there, in Russia. They must become impoverished. I am convinced that they must either change their government or reach such a state that they will not be able to finance the war. They must undergo tectonic changes within the country. Because I am sure that even if there is a temporary truce, they will withdraw the troops, perhaps, they will regroup and come again, I’m sure. I am convinced that the victory must be such that further military action on their part is impossible.

Listen, this is the most idiotic question, I’m not sure what will be included in the interview later, but: don’t you have such a feeling that Ukraine is now saving the Russian Federation from their idiotic power?
They deserve this power, right? What is their level of support for Putin — 70, 80 percent?

I do not think that we can operate with these numbers, so it may still be a piece of shitting lie. But the fact that many Russians deserve this power is absolutely certain.
I think he just has to smash his head against our wall, and they will have a chance to change something. But what they will change there and how — I do not know. But we save not only them: we save, first of all, ourselves, but also the whole world from this bastard. This shit is not only in what the weapon says, the shit in the thoughts they replicate. The same thoughts –make it impossible for anyone to exist normally. This is a constant threat to all. And now he came to us, thinking that everything would work out quickly, but look, it didn’t work out quickly. But I am sure that this war is not for two weeks. I think we are here until summer — until autumn, and this is a good forecast, and God forbid that we stay alive.

What is most valuable to you or with you now?
I did not understand the question. From material things?

Understand as you want. Such drama (smiles).
The most valuable thing is what is not around now. The most valuable thing is to hug your children. But from what is most valuable to me — bulletproof vest (knocking on the vest). Hypothetically, it will save me from something.

The previous interview was with Masi Nayem. Here, he gave you a cartridge from Kalashnikov gun. I will now try to briefly tell you what he meant when he gave you this convey. He says you need to remember why you are doing this and not forget who you really are. Our next interview will be with Artem Donets — do you know Artem Donets? What would you like to tell him, convey to him, or any other our next hero?
I would tell everyone this, and I will tell him, especially considering that he is from Kharkiv. We live here beautifully in comparison with Kharkiv, and it’s hard to imagine what’s going on there. I want to wish him — and anyone who is now involved in the war — under any circumstances, no matter how difficult, not to lose faith in our victory and in the fact that we are doing this not only for our own sake. .

And to give him a machine gun cartridge.
Yes. Here, I hope that he will be able to pass someone a shell from “Grad” (laughs).

Fuck, I won’t bring it! You put me in an awkward position!
I want to say a few more words. I know that many guys like me serve somewhere — even in territorial defense or hang out there with SSU officers. Well, that is, to some extent, they help the army, they did not go to Transcarpathia. And this, of course, deserves respect. But. I’ve seen a lot of posts on Facebook about glorifying ourselves — how we’re going to kill everyone now and so on. I’ve seen that especially from office dudes, who may have picked up a Kalash for the first time, are photographed at checkpoints. I’m not saying this applies to everyone. I just want to say clearly about myself: I do not consider myself a hero at all against the background of boys who are at zero. Yes, we are sitting in the trenches, they hit us — it’s scary, yes, it, of course, changes the psyche a little. I saw blood, and it’s different from sitting in Transcarpathia on barbecues. But real warriors are not these lawyers who, like me, sit in the trenches and try to deliver provisions and protect ours from scratch. Real heroes are at zero. I’m not sure that the lawyers I know are people who work at zero. In order not to have the feeling that if a person wears a uniform and a bulletproof vest, he automatically becomes a terminator, who overwhelmed half of the Chechens in Hostomel, because it is not like that. I myself regret that I haven’t taken out any tanks yet, you know (laughs).

It’s worth a million!
I would like to! (laughs) But it hasn’t worked out yet.

We save, first of all, ourselves, but also the whole world from these bastards [russians].

And what is the greatest heroism you have seen, justified or unjustified?
Well, I drive up to where ours, one from Armed Forces stops me, asks — to Kyiv? Yes. Will you give me a lift? He puts a big heavy sports bag in my trunk, we go, he goes out, forgets this bag. I got back the next day, dude, you forgot your bag. He says — exactly, thank you. And what is in that bag, I didn’t even open it, I ask. Oh, then we squeezed the armored personnel carrier from the motherfuckers, he says, there are a couple of shells from it in the bag, a thermos, and some other shit. That is, it is a bag stolen from the enemy armored personnel carrier? Well, he says, we drove to an armored personnel carrier, and I took this bag. And imagine this man black from soot, he went to war, he could be overwhelmed there but stole the armored personnel carrier, and quietly went home to the city. And there are so many guys like this around.

And what stories have you heard? Well, like the ‘ghost of Kyiv’?
Well, about the ghost — I’m skeptical about these stories, it seems to me that there are several of these pilots. We do not have such legends. We have fucking bad legends. The dudes were sitting in the cellar, a shell flew in, and they were uprooted with that cellar, minus six. This is not a legend, this is shit. There are enough such stories. Two days ago an ambulance was driving from our unit to the frontline, for some fucking reason, it was sent at night. And this was during this extended curfew. They drove closer to the frontline, did not slow down at the checkpoint, and ours dismantled this ambulance from a machine gun and even added with RPG — because everyone is on the line. Because it is necessary to slow down. I was stabbed in the face with a Kalash at checkpoints a couple of times when I forgot my password, and you can see that the dude is also white and shakes, that he keeps this Kalash for the second or third day, took it off the fuse, and you will be killed now. It will not be good, but you will not explain anything to anyone.

What will you do on the first day when the war is over?
On the first day, I will do my best to meet the children — either they will return, or I will go to them. What I will do next in life is an interesting question, I do not know what will happen to legal services and to whom to provide them. I think we need to retrain as builders. Here I have a builder as a friend, I will go to him in a brigade, there will be fucking great amount of something to build.