How Mushrooms Can Save The World with Louie Schwartzberg
Louie Schwartzberg is the director and producer of cult hit Fantastic Fungi. It’s a beautiful, evocative, slow-motion exploration of all things mycelial narrated by Wonder Woman herself, Brie Larson.
I was offered the chance to chat with him about his new film and used the opportunity to ask how mushrooms might get us through some of the difficult challenges we face today.
Louie was a real pleasure to talk to, the kind of person who immediately puts you at ease with a smile in his voice when he speaks. If you haven't seen it, the film is excellent. It’s full of wonder and amazement and for an hour and 20 minutes, you feel like we might just be able to work it out after all.
So Louie, how did you get into mushrooms and what led to you making this film?
I think that it all starts with the fact that, right out of college, I was fascinated with nature. Learning photography, developing that skill from shooting the anti-war protests on campus, documenting police brutality. I was a poli-sci history major. Back then you had to learn photography, you couldn’t just pick up a phone.
That turned me onto filming with the greatest teacher on earth, mother nature. Everything about lighting, composition, texture, I learned from the master. I’m still learning.
When I graduated, I wanted to shoot 35mm film but I couldn’t afford it. One of the ways to get around that was filming in timelapse, which no one had ever done before. I figured out how to make these old movie cameras shoot one frame at a time and it fed a sense of wonder. The other benefit, besides not having money, was that I could shoot all day long for weeks shooting one frame every ten seconds or one frame every minute. It would take me a month to shoot a four-minute roll of film which was something that was affordable. It’s was $100 a minute back then to shoot 35mm movie film. It’s probably even more now.
When I started to do timelapse, I just got seduced by flowers (laughs). Their colour, their taste, their touch, their smell, you know, when you see a flower open. Back then, they only did time-lapse from a scientific point of view with a grid behind it so they could go ‘hey look, flowers grow’. ‘Add sugar water, it’ll grow some more’. They didn’t do it from the point of view of art or beauty, you know.
I’ve been shooting nonstop timelapse flowers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for almost 4 decades. I thought, well, that’s kind of reason enough to be involved, essential beauty. But when I heard about colony collapse disorder, that the bees were disappearing, I figured well, maybe that’s the reason why I’ve been doing it because you can’t tell a story about bees without telling a story about flowers and how they coevolved. They coevolved over 50 million years, I call it a love story that feeds the earth, and if that relationship unravelled, according to Einstein, we would only have 5 years left to live. All of our fruits, nuts, seeds, vegetables, it all comes from a pollinating plant.
So I had this epiphany that pollination, the intersection between the animal world and the plant world, is what supports life on our planet. Because plants can take solar energy and turn it into food. So if plants are critical for survival, what do plants need? They need soil. Where does soil come from?
I went to a Bioneer talk where Paul Stamets was speaking and I got turned onto this whole idea that fungi create soil. They break down organic matter, even rock, minerals, and they’re really the bedrock of life on our planet.
Then you learn that not only does it create soil for plants but you also learn it could be the greatest natural solution for climate change, in partnership with plants in photosynthesis. You learn that you can sequester carbon under the ground, you know, CO2 goes into a leaf, oxygen is released, the carbon then goes down the trunk of the tree, into the roots, and then is traded with the mycelial network, for nutrients that it needs. Really remarkable.
Then you discover, wow, it also clean up a toxic oil spill, it can heal your body, as you see in the movie. Then, of course, the ultimate is the fact the psilocybin can also unlock a receptor in the brain that enables you to travel into your own inner worlds and what a remarkable gift that is.
It was like one big revelation after another. Then, as you see at the end of the movie, the biggest revelation of all is that the mycelial network is, I believe, a model for how we can live our lives on our planet. Coming out of this pandemic, it’s a blueprint for natures operating instructions. A sharing economy, under the ground, not based on greed, where ecosystems flourish, where everybody does well. That's how it works.
There are some big statements in the film made by very well respected scientists on this topic. Roland Griffiths says that mushrooms are potentially critical to the evolution of the species. So this all came about, as many things seem to do, through Paul Stamets?
Well, the biological side of it. Back then he didn't talk about psychedelics. Everyone was very fearful and he didn't want to impune his scientific research. So it’s only in the last year or two that everyone has sort of come out of the closet about this topic. You can ask the question why now?
What Rolan Griffiths said was people come out of the psychedelic experience with ‘love thy neighbour as thyself’ which is the golden rule that most spiritual religions practice. The idea of compassion, the idea of this oneness. Not only is the earth truly connected but life is connected. When you have that feeling, then you want to love it and you want to protect it.
We’re getting down to the most basic, basic questions. ‘What is the meaning of life? Why are we here? What are we doing? how do you achieve happiness?’ We’re getting into some really deep territory. That's really beautiful. It's so deep that people lose their fear of dying and because they lose their fear of dying, they embrace living.
The people in the psilocybin trials had severe diagnoses. You have this tragic event that occurs, your body is in trouble and on top of that you’ve got a mental issue of ‘what does that mean? what happens to me if I die? Where do I go?’ The ultimate existential questions. If you are suffering both mentally and physically, that's not good. The whole idea of mind-body-spirit being all tied together is one way people can heal themselves. To eliminate anxiety in the mind when you're dealing with a problem is a gift that should be available to everybody.
Another of the key messages is, of course, a resurgence of the Timothy Leary doctrine and the 60s movement. Is that something you’re trying to reignite, reimagine, for this generation with the film?
I think the answer to that is yes but obviously in a different way. Back then mushrooms were never ever illegal. Richard Nixon did it as a way to hurt his political enemies; the hippies, the anti-war protesters, people of colour, those were the enemy and declaring war on drugs was a way to combat those people.
We went through a flowering of consciousness in the late 60s and early 70s. I do think that there is a cycle that occurs in history. Every 50 years or so we have these kind of cultural shifts, these periods of breakdown and breakthrough. There are cycles where the same cultural demands for freedom emerge and I think we are in that same cycle again.
You've got Donald Trump, another like nemesis, who I think is going to activate more progressive thinking because for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Nixon did more to create the movement. Earth Day spawned in 1970.
I think now it’s pretty exciting because younger people have less restrictions than we did in terms of legal policy. The idea that cannabis is fucking legal in LA and now on every corner I drive by there's a billboard to go to a shop and buy cannabis. I have to pinch myself that that is real. That's unbelievable! When I was younger, not only would you go to jail but in Utah, they would hang you if you got caught, can you believe it? But obviously even today, African Americans and people of colour are incarcerated for marijuana when white folks get off, depending on what state you're in.
Look at the evolution. If you look at when President Obama got elected, he was against gay marriage. When he left, Republicans were for it. The cannabis movement, from medical to recreational, happened a lot faster than people in the movement or people who were pro-marijuana probably anticipated. So when something catches on, the zeitgeist can move quickly. I’m hopeful that it’s happening now. Maybe because it needs to happen now. As Roland Griffiths pointed out, in terms of the evolution of the species, coming out of this pandemic, what the fuck are we going to do? Are we going to live in harmony with nature? Or are we going to continue to stress it? Push climate change to the edge and think we can just get away with it?
So how does that political change happen? How do big shifts like this occur? I think the people who will watch this film are likely already on board with the idea but probably not in a position to enact policy decisions like the ones this film suggests. I’m wondering what you would like to see people doing practically to bring about change?
Well, learning about natures intelligence, which is beyond even the narrow confines of mushrooms. Once you understand that, then you want to be in harmony with it, you want to be in flow with it. Which therefore means it's going to affect your political choices. You're going to vote for candidates that have the same shared values that you do. That will not continue to fund fossil fuel companies. That will create programmes that will shift behaviour so people can be more sustainable.
It’s not a hippy-dippy thing. I can proudly say I was part of that movement and you know what, we were right. Everything we did was right. The idea of ‘if I can't change the world, maybe I’ll just change my community’, you know. What does that mean? Well, we can elect our own officials, we may have to grow our own food, we may have to live a little bit more off the grid, we’re going to need to live more in harmony with nature. These are things that we need to adapt to because the pandemic is forcing us to do that. And maybe that’s a good thing. Put the machine on pause. Put the whole global machine on pause because we are definitely going off the rails.
A lot of people do seem to be waking up to that idea right now. You talk about the fast pace of change, just look at the BLM movement. That was something that really set the whole planet on fire in a very short space of time. These things can happen but they can also be quite frightening or difficult for people and even at the start of your documentary, one of the scientists says ‘people are scared of mushrooms’ — why do you think that is?
Well, anything that is so powerful that it can heal you, it can feed you, it can kill you, is to be feared. There are some poisonous mushrooms and a lot of folklore. The English are really good at this, they coined the term mycophobia. The other thing is they’re underground (laughs) and they just pop up out of nowhere! They're mysterious. Sometimes they’ll grow, sometimes they won't. They’re an enigma. They have power. I think all of that creates fear. That which is unknown always creates fear.
To me, the film suggests the world would be a better place if everyone had access to psychedelic mushrooms — is that something you would like to see?
I think it definitely would be a good idea. There are some studies that were done, for example, in prisons that found out that prisoners became less violent and other studies that indicate that people become more conscious about the environment and protecting nature. Being kinder is a good thing.
Would I recommend it? I think the answer would be yes in a safe, controlled environment, in a responsible way, with a lot of respect. Initially, it will do what cannabis did. It will be a medical thing where people have to have a condition to access it. Eventually, it will open up and now, as you know, in California cannabis is 100% legal in terms of recreational use. It went down this track where it fixed psychological problems. The same now with psilocybin. I’m proud to say we're going to be involved in a trial combining my nature imagery with psilocybin to treat alcohol addiction in Santa Monica, in the fall, at St Johns. Pretty amazing!
It’s going to have to be found to be medically valid and beneficial first but the truth is it needs to be available to everybody because we all, at times, need to have a bit of an adjustment and alignment. When people want a break they traditionally drink, which I think is the wrong way to go. Its a depressant and it’s contributed to a lot of violent behaviour. I don't know of anybody getting violent on magic mushrooms.
Going to your interest in political change, I think that we're shifting from a political ideology of ‘survival of the fittest’, the whole macho thing of ‘kill or be killed’, which was adopted by imperialistic countries to justify the invasions of third world countries, Teddy Roosevelt did all that. Darwin didn't speak about survival of the fittest. The majority of his writing is about botany, about symbiosis, about relationships, about networks, that’s where it’s at. I believe that's where we're at politically and culturally.
What's hurting now more than anything is social distancing. That’s the biggest pain that we are going through right now, for everybody. Social networking is what we need. The mycelial network is a wonderful example of social networking. I think in a way we’re shifting to the feminine. It's about rebirth, regeneration, relationships, connections, symbiosis. Not ‘kill or be killed’, not ‘survival of the fittest’. We need to let go of that story. That story has been told in our movies, in our culture, over and over and over and I'm done with that story. The films that I make are not about survival of the fittest, they're about survival of the kindest.
It's a very hopeful message.
When we did screenings, I can't say how many young people came up to me and said ‘thank you. For the first time, an environmental film where I walked out of the theatre feeling hopeful’. Because it’s solution-oriented and that's a big thing. If you're young today you just hear doomsday reports on climate change. Wow, what a depressing future you think you're guaranteed to inherit.
For sure. People of my generation and the generation below are incredibly worried about the future of the planet so to come out of this film feeling positive about the world is really nice. But we’ve been having these arguments for years, for decades, and not a lot has changed. When you think about the progress that was made in the 50s and 60s with psychedelic research, why has it stalled?
The reason why we’ve stalled is because of propaganda and we’re dealing with propaganda now worse than ever. ‘Fake news’. Shit man, it’s a major fucking problem.
What you’re asking is why did we shift our behaviour, when we had the facts and the science? Unfortunately, when it escaped the lab people were partying and some people were getting high who shouldn't be getting high. Maybe people were having accidents or dying but there was lot of misinformation about people jumping off roofs or people who thought they could fly. There was a tonne of media put out there that did shift behaviour. We live in a world where the media shapes our culture. People like you and I are afraid to talk about it for fear of being incarcerated. Timothy Leary went to jail for saying what he said. People are scared.
Unfortunately, it was forced to go underground. But it didn't go completely dead. What happened is that a lot of the therapists and psychologists who were treating people or friends or patients, they maintained a small but underground therapeutic movement. Look at Steve Jobs. Look at guys like him. Anyone who wants a journey can get access to a journey. It evolved. Technological breakthroughs, scientific breakthroughs, that we’re benefitting from today. The invention of DNA, Watson and Crick, that happened on an LSD trip. Look at what Jobs did in pushing the computer in terms of design. The effects are enormous.
Now it’s really beautiful. The mushrooms are mushrooming because of a lot of different factors. Social change is happening. Black Lives Matter. The younger generation didn't grow up with the same propaganda.
Are you hopeful about the future of where this is all going to lead?
I have to be (laughs). An optimist is someone who has their sleeves rolled up. I think that there really is no other alternative, at least for me. You can either be an optimist or a pessimist. You can both agree on the same facts but what are you going to do about it?
I think psychedelics and mushrooms in particular have always been agents for change. They've always been a threat to authority and to the establishment. Which is why they make it illegal. It’s the gateway to the divine and people want to be able to control that, either politically or, if they're religious leaders, so they can maintain control of the flock. It’s always going to challenge the status quo, which is good. That’s evolution. Diversity and change are natures operating instructions and every generation should automatically challenge the previous generation. By challenge, I mean question. What's going on? What are you doing? Can we do it better? Otherwise, we end up with robots and clones which would be really scary. That would be a dystopian future.
The film does a great job of summing up the benefits of mushrooms in a short space of time. For someone who is not very aware of mushrooms beyond what they have on pizza, it’s a great introduction.
I appreciate that. Right off the bat, we got to the deepest part of all, that it’s all about love and connection, where do you go from there? Is there something better than that? More important than that? Is there something else I should be worrying about other than that? I do feel the film does go there and when the audience sees it they cry. Not because it’s sad but because it touched the deepest part of their soul. Its a homecoming. This is like medicine we need and when you hear the truth, it feels great.
Not that I'm giving you the truth, I'm just the messenger. By making the invisible visible, I'm just showing you what you and I can’t see. Mushrooms are alive and they move and they are intelligent and they are conscious and they’re integral to life on our planet. Why don't we know anything about them? Why are we so ignorant? Why are we blind? Why are we only living in a human-centric point of view? How grossly egotistical that is when we’re a fraction of life on earth and we know now that we’re actually pretty vulnerable. Here's a little microbe that can kick our ass. I can see why everyone's really fearful. The beautiful thing about the film is that we talk about pandemics. We had no idea this was going to happen, obviously, and the whole world of fungi and mycelium is the microscopic world. We are in the 80% percentile in terms of size of living creatures on the planet. We are walking giants. A trillion cells in your body. You are a universe. A whole cosmic universe, right, with fungi living in your microbiome. I’ve heard microbes make up more cells in your body than your own cells. So being able to embrace, being able to understand, even just the outer edges of that can make you less fearful about COVID-19.
It is bizarre that the film also covers pandemics and plagues.
It’s not bizarre, the mushrooms made me do it! I started shooting this film about 13 years ago. Had I released this film five years ago or as little as two years ago it would not have had the same impact. You’ve got to ask the question why now? Why is there a receptivity now? I'm not just talking about the movie. There's a global conscious wave that's happening. I feel the film is a catalyst for a movement that is going to get bigger and bigger. It's just going to grow.
I think people are becoming more aware of the fact that the systems that they operate in right now are not good for the planet and for our overall survival. I think they’re looking for alternatives, for different ways of living, and different ways to structure society that are more sustainable. Giving people ideas like the ones you do could be very powerful.
When we first launched it, we launched in Denver because they're the first city to decriminalise mushrooms. Obviously that’s a strategic thing. You gotta sell tickets so you might as well go to the place where you might have a bit of a following. But we sold out weeks and weeks and weeks of theatre without any advertising. It was all through the mycelial network. The same thing happened in Portland. We broke records. We spent no money on ads and here we are competing against Hollywood movies. We’re a documentary which is like two strikes against you already and now all of a sudden we’re selling out.
Part of it was that I did a tonne of travelling. I would do a Q and A as the director but what we did was hold a space for conversation. We had local chefs, local foragers, local psychonauts, the local decrim movement, local scientists, the local spiritual people, the local permaculture people, you know, all coming together and having this conversation. That was so powerful. Right after the movie, can you imagine? I really felt like I was at a spiritual revival. It was great. I would tell people ‘oh I'm so glad you guys all showed up and I want to thank the mycelial network’ and the crowd would cheer. They all knew what I was talking about! Who knew the word mycelial network? They all did.
You can watch Fantastic Fungi on Apple TV.
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