An EU of values, including gender equality
Interview with Alexander De Croo, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance and Development Cooperation
On 9 and 10 October 2019 Alexander De Croo, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance and Development Cooperation for Belgium, visited Luxembourg. He combined the meeting he had with his fellow ministers of finance in the Eurogroup with a presentation of the book he published earlier this year entitled ‘The Age of Women — why feminism also liberates men,’ presented during a meeting at the European Stability Mechanism. He also visited the ECA, where he met with President Klaus-Heiner Lehne and ECA Member Annemie Turtelboom. Alexander De Croo links the topic of gender equality to some of the big political, economic and social challenges the Union faces today.
By Gaston Moonen
Men can be feminists
Alexander De Croo is clearly pleased to see that more and more men — including the interviewer — show interest in his recent book ‘The Age of Women — why feminism also liberates men’ ’I am always happy to see when the book is bought by men. Sometimes the buyer then asks me “Please write something in it for my wife.” But that is actually not the idea. Because I believe that it is foremost men who should read it. Getting the topic a bit away from women and get it more circulated among men was an important reason for me to write the book.’
The Deputy Prime Minister explains that feminism is not a neutral word and that actually some people, for different reasons, really resent it. ‘Sometimes I get the question from women: how can you be a feminist while you are a man. I find this a bit of a strange argument. I can fight racism while being a white person, I can act against poverty without being poor myself, etc.’ He points out that apparently with feminism it is much less neutral, while exactly on this topic more men are needed. ‘What I see a lot today is “I am not against gender equality.” That is a start. But what you really need is men who say: “I am going to be an active champion in this, I want to make this happen.”’
For Alexander De Croo it is clear that it is the right thing to do. But there is another important driver: ‘Because it makes economic sense! What we are doing today is a gigantic waste of resources. As a society you cannot have the goal to have the highest educated housewives of the world. But this is what we actually do now.’ He comes with figures: ‘If you look at education there are more women graduating than men and their academic scores are generally better.’ Then he looks further: ‘While in most careers there is actually equality of men and women streaming in, ten years down the road, only men survive. What happened?’ In his view, in any domain of society, one would say to look at the numbers if there is such a bad utilisation of resources. ‘We would be extremely active. But on gender equality, for so many decades we have said: okay, that’s what it is.’
Time to act…with the aid of quota
He points out that often the gender policy remains highly anecdotal. ‘But we need to act. Until a few years ago, I was vigorously against quota. And actually many women were against it. Same for my wife. She told me: “I have read your book but regarding your view on quota, I completely disagree!” But you see that minds are shifting.’ Why did Alexander De Croo change his mind in favour of it? ‘Quota used to be: you have an organisation, mostly men. Oh, gender equality…let’s take a woman from three levels below, we pull her up and we have solved it. Obviously you have not solved anything and it is incredibly stigmatizing.’
He makes clear that if you do not put quota on the table you do not make it measurable. ‘And then we will never going to get there. I have seen so many times: a shortlist of candidates…with five men! And if it is a list of 10 then they will put one woman.’ Alexander De Croo believes that today, in any domain of society, you have woman who have the right competence, the right experience, and who have the right ambition. ‘They are there, but we tend to completely overlook them. And men have the habit to feel more comfortable with other men around.
He identifies several reasons why one has to try harder. ‘Men and women handle opportunity in a very different way. Men will apply, even if they hardly meet half of the criteria, and in general women are a lot more perfectionist about it and might decline even if there is a perfect match.’ He underlines that a systematic approach is needed to break that. He also thinks that this can be done while taking the best candidate. ‘That is often the argument against quota. But is the best candidate always a man? It is not! But if you look at the choices we make you would then come to the conclusion that, since we always take the best candidate, the best candidate is always a man.’ He adds ‘So for me the value of quota is that it enables me to say: “You go back and you try harder in finding the women — who do exist — and to put them on this shortlist.”
“… we will have gender equality the moment we have as many incompetent women in leadership as today we have incompetent men in leadership.”
Elaborating further on this, he refers to a definition he really likes, which is: we will have gender equality the moment we have as many incompetent women in leadership as today we have incompetent men in leadership. ‘That is gender equality! We actually look and judge in a very different way: if a man is failing, we will say “too bad he failed.” If we promoted a woman and she is failing, the reaction is often: “we knew it, it’s a woman.” We put the bar much higher for those people who are not fitting in our own mold, be it women — or others.’ He treads carefully here. ‘We should not mix gender with minority policies. Mainly, because women are simply not a minority, quite the opposite. And if you equalize gender policy with minority policy you are not doing a favour to either one of them.’
Bringing gender policy into the economic realm
For Alexander De Croo there is another reason, an economic one, in favour of introducing quota. ‘We should know that we judge in a very male way. And the consequence is that more men succeed. Perhaps we should be questioning the way we are judging.’ For him there is no doubt that in the fast changing and turbulent world of today the most successful teams are mixed teams. ‘As I explain in my book, there is no magic solution, not one thing you should do. There are many different things to do. But let’s finally get moving!’
With a background in economics and experience in for example development cooperation the Belgium politician could have selected many other pressing issues to write about. But it became gender equality. He explains that it is a topic close to his heart, also because of his mother, an active feminist and foremost a family lawyer who shared many dreadful stories of women in trouble. ‘But when I went to university, I thought “We are there, the big feminist topics, we have achieved them, for example through legislation.”’ He refers to a recent study by the World Bank which says otherwise. ‘There are six countries around the world where the laws make absolutely no difference between men and women. Belgium is one of them. But there are more than 190 countries in the world, so there is still a long way to go!’
“… There are six countries around the world where the laws make absolutely no distinction between men and women. Belgium is one of them.”
Initially Alexander De Croo thought it would be a matter of time before the gender differences would be solved. ‘But it is not, it is a matter of policy.’ His experiences as Minister of Development Cooperation opened his eyes. ‘For example, in Sub-Saharan Africa one thing became really essential in our development policy. It is called SRHR — Sexual Reproductive Health and Rights — basically family planning.’ He explains that if you give a twelve-year-old girl access to family planning, it makes a difference between becoming pregnant at that age and having seven kids, or having an education and standing on her own legs. And this is an issue that everyone understands. ‘Because everybody can relate to it. If you, between the age of 16 and 25, would not have had access to family planning, would you be living the live you are living today? Obviously not and everybody understands that!’
“If you, between the ages of 16 and 25, you had not had access to family planning, would you be living the life you are living today?”
But taken this topic to the policy level for action, translating it to the agenda of colleagues, also those not working in development cooperation, turns out to be difficult. ‘In my Council meetings as Development Minister it is a topic on the agenda, but not for all 28. Some countries will just pull back. And I think we have stalled on this topic in the EU.’ He points out that the dialogue with like-minded countries is easy. ‘But the real discussion is with Saudi Arabia. And within the EU perhaps with more conservative governments like in Hungary or Poland.’
Also in the setting of Finance Ministers, it may arrive on the table, but indirectly. ‘For example, the link is now made between finance and climate. For Finance Ministers this is relatively new. And linking it to the Sustainable Development Goals — the SDGs –enables you to put more in it.’ He adds that money drives policy and since the Finance Ministers are responsible for certain financial institutions which are financing a lot — the European Investment Bank, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, national development financial institutions — these ministers can push for certain topics. ‘Today these institutions use so-called ESG criteria — Environmental, Social and Government. We should add a second G and add the gender dimension as well. But it is clearly not yet a topic discussed in the Euro group meetings.’
“… a link has now been established between finance and climate. For finance ministers this is relatively new.”
The Deputy Prime Minister finds that gender is more a topic now in national politics. ‘Look at Justin Trudeau, when he launched his government in 2015 with a government at parity. When asked why the new Prime Minister said: “well, because it is 2015.” And Emmanuel Macron did it the same way, as did Ursula von der Leyen.’ For Alexander De Croo it is clear that things are moving. ‘But today you have also more pushback on it.’
One of the criticisms he received regarding his book is his opinion about part time work. ‘I am rather critical about it because I see what the consequences are. Because part time work almost always ends up with women. Leading to part time careers, part time salary, part time retirement and part time opportunities.’ He concludes that too often women are pushed into that direction. ‘Many people do not agree with me on this. I think the real question in the end is: do you have a fair discussion on this? Or is it a discussion where the men think that their self-esteem is linked to be the income earner in the family and many questions related to it, including being the last one to leave the office building? It is a mental thing, and also a cultural issue.’
Alexander De Croo goes back to his roots. ‘The topic of gender equality is about life. I am an economist and I believe in economic growth. But only economic growth as a number does not make me happy. What makes me happy is that more people have access to a good life. If we want to have a good life, we need to create more prosperity. But we are not creating more prosperity by squeezing it out of the small group that is doing it today. We are going to make the pie bigger if more people participate in a more balanced way — so more quality of life.’ He observes that on this aspect Scandinavian countries do it in a better way than most EU Member States.
“…. economic growth. But economic growth as a number does not make me happy. What makes me happy is that more people have access to a good life.”
Another issue he touches upon is the importance of role models, having women become leaders, also in financial institutions, for example Kristalina Georgieva at the IMF and Christine Lagarde at the ECB. ‘Both women will tell you that they were against quota but that now they are in favour of it. The financial world is a good test case because a big part of what the financial sector is doing is dealing with risk, so managing risks. And men and women deal with risk in a very different way. As Christine Lagarde said: “If it would have been the Lehman Sisters instead of the Lehman Brothers, we would be in a different world.” And I kind of agree with that.’ He considers that having these two women leading key financial institutions sets a strong example. ‘You now have financial institutions making a point of it, making an effort to diversify their leadership.’ He recalls a conversation he had with a CEO who is doing this. ‘He said that he is doing this because it is the right thing. But also because it makes economic sense: “I just have better results.”’
“… men and women deal with risk in a very different way. […] If it had been the Lehman Sisters instead of the Lehman Brothers, we would be in a different world.”
Taking the lead…starting with a clear EU vision
When it comes to what the Deputy Prime Minister expects from the Commission to do for the upcoming mandate on the issue of gender equality he is rather clear. ‘First of all, what we need is a Commission that is leading and puts forward a certain vision. If you work in an EU context you will have to make compromises. And for a Member State it is easy to explain at home a compromise if you can say “This is the vision why we do it.”’ He explains that as national politician he can a compromise in view of a big picture where one wants to go. ‘What we have seen over the last few years that there are more and more Member States defending their so-called national interests; but this often means that the European vision is getting lost. That’s why I have expectations of a Commission that is at gender parity, for the first time a female President, which gives as message: gender equality is an important issue. And I hope that Ursula von der Leyen and her team manage to put forward a positive EU vision, clear objectives that we want to attain and a forward-looking and positive dream. Then, I believe, many things that we have been struggling with in the last years may become be a bit easier to pursue.’
A second point he underlines is that the EU is not only an economic and security project but also a project of values, of human and democratic values. ‘And when the Commission is critical about certain things that are happening in the legal system of certain countries, I think that is rightfully so, and we should go further on that line. One of the Commissioners will be responsible for Justice.’ Alexander De Croo believes that the EU should be clear in the case of laws leading to discrimination. ‘But we should also do it a less stigmatizing way. For example, too often we speak about the new and the older EU Member States. We should stop that, we are all equal, we are 15 years further!’
As third issue he refers to certain topics being high on the political agenda. ‘Take for example climate, which is a good thing. And the jump from climate to SDGs is actually quite an easy one. And within the SDGs gender equality plays an important role. And there are really some high-quality people in the European Commission from whom I have high expectations and who, I believe, that for example Executive Vice-President-elect Frans Timmermans has an open mind on this, and is pretty vocal on this.’ However, the Belgium politician questions whether you need a Commissioner for gender equality. ‘I am not so sure. In the end this is a topic for everyone.’
Alexander De Croo hopes that the European Commission also plays a bigger role in the political debate. ‘The Commission needs to bring certain policies to a human level, a level that everyone understands. And takes sometimes decisions that may be a bit controversial but at least you become part of the political debate. And avoid the scapegoating that we often see. Anything that goes well we — national ministers — say that that is thanks to us and everything that goes wrong we say, this is the European system.’ He explains that one of the effects of the UK’s efforts to leave the EU has made the 27 others more aligned. ‘We are sometimes highly vocal about what goes wrong in the EU. But all 27, we will defend the single market, freedom of movement, etc. The discussions with and about the UK have really shown how dear this all is to us. There are strong foundations in this European project!’
ECA and realising gender equality
Being in the executive branch Alexander De Croo also has some expectations from what the ECA can contribute regarding gender equality. ‘If we, within the EU project, say that gender is an important dimension then I expect that the ECA will see whether this actually touch the road, looking at what has been achieved.’ Another aspect he raises relates to the ECA’s internal functioning. ‘President Klaus-Heiner Lehne explained me that also the ECA still has a way to go to reach full gender equality. In my view, being an independent EU institution, there should be no reason why you cannot draft a plan and say: this is where we want to be in ten years from now. The more since you should be leading by example. And for the sake of having more legitimacy vis-à-vis your auditee, I think it would make the ECA much stronger if you were to give the right example.’
Keeping confidence in progress
The Deputy Prime Minister realises that the political winds in several countries make the objective of gender equality sometimes more difficult to realise. ‘We have always thought that history is going in a straight line. But sometimes it takes a turn and you go into another direction. But I stand for what I said in my book. That true freedom of choice does not exist if women cannot be equal to men. The question we have now is: are we going to defend what we have and are we ready to continue progressing it? He explains that speaking about norms and values can also take a different direction. ‘In my view a dangerous one because the next step is family values.’ Which he thinks can also be used to defend the traditional pattern: men go to work and women back in their kitchen. ‘And LGBT back in the closet! That is also family values, it can be used by populists all the time.’
“… true freedom of choice does not exist if women cannot be equal to men.”
Alexander De Croo puts the issue in a broader perspective, explaining that family values are rooted in a form of nostalgia which seems comforting for people who are looking to the future and may actually feel a bit afraid of what they believe is coming. ‘That is what is happening in Europe: we are loosing a bit our confidence in progress. This is worrying because progress has always meant -up to now — that we believe that the life of our children will be better than the live that we have had. This belief in progress was a key element in this — it kept us going. And that is gone for a number of reasons. Then you have two solutions: or you make people stronger or you tell them: the future is not what you look at, you need to look at history.’ Referring to Hans Rosling — a Swedish scientist, he concludes: ‘Research shows that on many accounts the situation of mankind in the past was in a worse state than today; in reality we have made dramatic progress. But we have become blind to these achievements. History should motivate us, not worry us. But apparently it does for many people.’
He explains that feminism used to be seen as something many men saw as very threatening. ‘The feminist story was basically saying: men are bad, men are evil and we want your job. Not nice to hear. But if you use the economic argument and explain that a better balance between men and women probably means that also men have a more balanced live, that is much more convincing.’ He underlines that both women and men get stereotyped in a rather horribly way. ‘If you say: I am a man but I am fine with working part time because I want my wife to have other opportunities to developed her career, those men get judged in a very harsh way. As are sometimes women who are in leading positions.’ He gives the example of his colleague for budget in Belgium, Sophie Wilmès. ‘When she became minister the first question she got was: ”You have three kids, how are you going to do this?” I have two children and no one ever asked me that question.’ He calls them the conscious and unconscious biases. ‘We all have them, including myself.’
Gender equality — and how SDGs can help to make it measurable
Gender equality is one of the 17 SDGs (SDG 5) which are set to be realised for 2030. When discussing how realistic this date is Alexander De Croo refer to the first evaluation of SDGs, which was discussed during the meeting of the UN General Assembly in September 2019. ‘The diagnosis was that many things are happening but we are not on track, we need to go one gear higher. And I agree with that. On the gender issue — and that is what I wanted to do for my country, Belgium- societies are makeable. Scandinavian countries did not become what they were by just complacency. They become what they are because they saw the benefits of this and everyone played his and her role in that.’ The more important he finds to make it measurable. ‘We need to have a metric. The one I use is the pay gap. The pay gap takes into account that men and women end up in different industries, women in industries that are paying less.’ He gives several explanations for the differences that occur: men and women are not working in the same intensity; more part time work for women than for men; women do not end up as much in leadership or high paying positions. ‘So if in a country this pay gap is very small, then it is a reflection of the fact that many of these facts have been dealt with. And government can play a role in that. Private organisations have a large role to play. And, as I point out in my book, men have a role to play. We will get there the moment men are convinced that it is good for their teams, good for themselves, and good for their daughters, and even their sons.’ He concludes: ‘So if you want to get something changed you need a clear objective. And preferably a measurable one.’ Then, with a laugh: ‘No doubt an audit institution as the ECA will agree with that!’
This article was first published on the 4/2019 issue of the ECA Journal. The contents of the interviews and the articles are the sole responsibility of the interviewees and authors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the European Court of Auditors.
