Primary Maths and the Importance of How We Think About Thinking: An Interview with Caroline Rickard

We were so lucky to have Caroline Rickard provide world class teacher training at Pardada Pardadi Educational Society with our K-5 maths teachers in Anupshahr, India. During this episode, Caroline graciously offer insights about her time at the school.

Do you have a skill or expertise you’d like to share with us? We love hosting volunteers in India that can help us bring the best possible education to rural Indian girls. If you’re interested in getting involved, or want to learn more, click here.

Intro: Welcome to this first episode of the Pardada Pardadi Voices podcast. For almost 20 years Pardada Pardadi has facilitated the creation of a socially and economically empowered model for rural development. Based in western Uttar Pradesh, India, Pardadi Pardadi provides free education, job opportunities, healthcare, and livelihood enhancement for girls and women from the marginalized sections of society, and enables them to break out of the cycle of poverty. This is no easy task. Beyond its founding team and core educators, Pardada Pardadi utilizes an extensive network of expert volunteers. That being said, you don’t need to be an expert in education to volunteer at Pardada Pardadi. But of course, it’s a plus.

Today, I’m fortunate enough to sit down with Caroline Rickard. With an established professional career in primary mathematics I was eager to speak with Caroline, hear about her experiences at Pardada Pardadi, and about how she is helping to bring top notch education to rural India and the world.

Jake: Caroline, thanks for being here tonight.

Caroline: It’s a pleasure.

J: So, before we jump into Pardada Pardadi, what got you into education?

C: I decided to become a teacher once I done my A-levels (finished college). I decided that primary school teaching with mathematics as my main subject would be my choice. Taught for twelve years and then there came an opportunity to teach in teacher education in the university sector, and I’ve been in that job now for over 17 years and thoroughly enjoy trying to enthuse other people in mathematics. Hopefully, I’m managing to do the job.

J: Why maths?

C: I don’t really remember mathematics, particularly in primary school, but in secondary school I was lucky enough to have an inspiring teacher. It was probably that teacher who gave me a deep enough understanding of mathematics that I retained a passion for how maths works. It was that which made it a good choice of main subject for me and in primary school that means perhaps leading the subject and coordinating other people in terms of best practice in teaching mathematics.

J: Along those lines, coming back to the Pardada Pardadi piece of it, what’s been your role here and how long have you been a volunteer here?

C: This is just the end of my second week. I think two weeks was important because it gave me the chance to get to know the three teachers I was working most closely with and find out what their strengths and maybe areas for development might be. Beyond this to begin to think about how we could develop practice, you know they’re fairly young teachers, in terms of their professional life, so it’s a chance to support them and help them grow in their lives as teachers of mathematics.

J: What impact do you feel like you’ve been able to make over the course of your two weeks here?

C: I’m going to be honest and say to start with during the first week, I wasn’t sure I was having very much influence on practice. It was awkward because I was conversing only in English, as I don’t speak Hindi (the native language of all the teachers), and therefore the confidence of the teachers just to speak with me in English needed to grow first before we could speak confidently about mathematics ideas. Actually in the second week, we encouraged the teachers to do a lot of things, but in particularly to get the children to think more deeply about mathematics. The culture [here] seems to be heavily focused on the answers students give and the teachers focusing on the answer and praising the child for getting the answer right whereas, my approach is much more focused on how the child is thinking about the answer to the question.

Let me give you an example: If we were trying to calculate 12 x 5, there might be a number of different ways we can think about the answer to that question. I would love the children to be talking about those ideas far more as opposed to just focusing on the answer 60, and it being right. It’s how we understand that the answer is 60. So for example the children today were thinking well if I know 10, 12’s then I know 5, 12’s. So that’s been one of my big challenges with the teachers is how we can get the children to think more deeply about the mathematics that they’re engaging in. I think it’s paying off. I’m finally getting to the point in the second week where I’m starting to see the teachers talking back to me about the messages I’ve been working with them on.

J: So even in the two weeks you’ve seen an evolution?

C: Even in two weeks I’ve definitely seen progress. The teacher who is most confident is now confident enough that he’s explaining things, for example we worked today with another teacher who we hadn’t worked with before and while working with the new teacher this particular teacher was able to explain what I would be looking for in a way he wouldn’t have been able to at the beginning of the process. They’re beginning to take forward some of the ideas and incorporate them into their own practice.

J: And in many ways, and as a teacher I’m sure you can attest to this, you’re focusing on primary mathematics but this way we think about how we teach, and how we think, is applicable across disciplines, isn’t it?

C: Absolutely, and I found it wasn’t gaps in the subject knowledge from the teachers, they know the math. It’s the pedagogy of how I want children to think about the mathematics, to understand the relationships and structures and connections within mathematics. That if they understand those things beyond just knowing the answers to things, then I stand the chance of progressing as a mathematician and some of these girls will be able to hopefully go on and study maths at a higher level. Though of course I want them to think more deeply in science, in Hindi, in English, in any of the lessons that they’re taking part in.

J: So I think I know the answer to this already but, even in your short time here, you feel like you’ve been able to make an impact and vice versa, that an impact has been made on you?

C: Absolutely, it’s been a real privilege to work with these teachers, many of whom come from the same villages the children come from, and to work with them and to analyze and help them think more critically about their own practice. That’s been a real privilege and I’ve learned things too. I’ve learned to count to ten in Hindi, but also about how they approach mathematics that are different to how we approach them in U.K. I think the privilege is the greatest thing, to be able to come and work closely with someone in their classroom is a really special thing to be able to do. I would encourage anybody whose got expertise in particular area to consider volunteering for a couple of weeks ideally, so you can settle in and get to know how things work and then potentially start to have those conversations about best practices with the teachers in the school.

J: You answered my last question. I wanted to ask, if someone was on the fence about coming, would you recommend that they come?

C: Absolutely, though they should come at a time of year when it’s not too hot!

I was fortunate that it was an old student of mine who recommended that I come. She was spot on and we have all benefited. They are keen and willing to engage in dialogue about best practice.

J: I just know from spending some time with you how nice it is and how much I’ve learned so I can only imagine you’ve had that much of an impact on the teachers and girls.

C: Let’s hope so.

J: Caroline, thanks so much.

C: Thank you.