Thoughts on Growing up Biracial in Boston, the Mixed Race Experience and Mixed Heritage in the U.S.
Ingram: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and welcome to BWTM News & Entertainment. We have a very special guest with us this evening all the way from America, Dr. Zebulon Miletsky. Dr. Zebulon, how are you?
Dr. Miletsky: Greetings. I’m well. How are you?
Ingram: I’m blessed and highly favored as always. Thank you so much for being on BWTM News & Sports, and in particular, we’re focusing tonight: race, culture, heritage, Black history, really looking forward to talking to you about such subjects. So for people who don’t know much about you, give us little backgrounds to who you are and what you do.
Dr. Miletsky: Yes. Well, first let me just thank you again for having me on. It’s a pleasure. I know there’s a strong fanbase out there and a strong audience, and I just want to say greetings to everybody. I am Professor of African-American Studies, of Africana Studies at Stony Brook University. I am on the tenure track. I am teaching, I am working with various groups. I love working with students and I love teaching minds. And so it’s been very rewarding for me.
Ingram: Okay, great. So Doctor, first and foremost, straightaway, I know you talk about being of mixed heritage but even when I saw your picture, when I first saw it, it’s like, “Wow, this man is talking about Africana studies,” and the first thing that comes to my mind is, “Well, is he actually being accepted by the black community, those of darker skin? How does that — how does he relate to them and how has — is there a battle there or not?”
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it has to do with the U.S. context, first of all. Race here, the way it works, say in states are so different as you all know from you know, Europe and from other parts of the world. And so you know, to reverse that question if you know, if I were to be doing that, say, over there or somewhere else, I don’t know. But here in the United States, we have a lot of traditions, a lot of histories one — known as the one-drop rule. I don’t know if it’s too soon to start talking about the one-drop rule when we’re five seconds in here, but the one-drop rule and also more importantly though, in my case, it just so happens that I grew up in the Black community in the United States in Boston, Massachusetts, Roxbury. Went to school at Roxbury my whole life from elementary to middle to the higher grades and lived kind of like right on the edge, in Jamaica Plain.
And, so that has a lot to do with it. It just so happens in my case, I grew up around a lot of members of the African-American, Afro-Caribbean side of my family; luck of the draw. And so for that reason you know, I’m able — I guess, I’m able to — I’ve always had that battle though, that’s for sure, and I could tell you a lot of stories. But there is room, and ultimately in the Black community for someone like myself, and that’s actually kind of how I got interested in African-American history or when I got interested I learned about someone named Charles Chesnutt who probably looked whiter than I do even. I think of people like that who — nobody would dispute that he’s a celebrated African-American you know, writer. And so, I learned about you know, Walter White, not from the TV show but NAACP. But yeah, he’s white. I don’t know. We might have to — well, I don’t even remember that jokes. But — so you know, blond hair, blue eyes you know. He was able to go down south and investigate lynching and use that. He was the head of the NAACP.
So once I started learning about folks like that, I said, “Wow you know, maybe my situation is not as new way or as unique or as you know, different as I always thought growing up, you know like there’s nobody out here like me but it’s not true. And still that’s a long tradition in the black community in the United States. I want to — you know, it changes when you go to the Caribbean, it changes. You know, where — how I would be seen as black in other places? Probably not, and I know that and I know the places. But so yeah, it is still a shock. It doesn’t change the shock on the first day of class you know. That’s never going to change, I don’t think. That first day, you’re like, “Okay, okay,” you know. But I earned it you know, you got to you know, I let the information and the training and the facts and the evidence and you know, what we put together and what we have put together and the field of African-American studies speak for itself and it really, really does. So you just become sort of the shepherd of it. And so — but, yeah, yeah, to answer your question, it still shocked people I believe.
Ingram: So let’s talk about your — I know you mean — you said African-American but maybe we talk about the Caribbean — you didn’t quite delve too much into that because my family is from the Caribbean, from Trinidad and Grenada. So talk to us about your family, where they come from, where they are from?
Dr. Miletsky: Oh, boy, why did I bring that up? Well, brother you know, I don’t want to delve on this too much but — no, I’m just kidding. But — well, in fact you know, I’m proud of that you know, I’m proud of that. The fact is — the fact is that there’s so many shades to the Black experience, there’s so many shades to the Caribbean or so-called West Indian experience. In my case, it just so happens that my grandmother on my mother’s side, my mother’s mother was — both of her parents were Jamaican.
Ingram: Oh, wow.
Dr. Miletsky: And yeah, and so that’s — that was my grandmother. Winifred Deare was her name, her maiden name — had a different maiden name obviously, Sinclair, which — so, anyway, yeah. But she was born in Boston. So she’s from you know, in the black immigration spectrum. She’s you know, you’re born in the U.S. you know, so a lot of the cultural things, there were some things but that just — it just so happens to be the case of my mother’s side. And in the other side of — that is to say my Black — my Black side — my Black parent mother — mother’s side is also African-American and her folks — and their folks are in down in North Carolina.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: And so — and there’s a little bit of Barbados thrown in there somewhere but I don’t want to you know, misstate it so there’s a little bit of that in there.
Ingram: Okay. Wow. Wow. I know you talked about your father’s side being Jewish.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah. Yeah.
Ingram: How did that work out? I mean, obviously, a Black woman and a Jewish man in American, how did that all work out? And then being together and to be so strong to have that relationship do you think?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah. Well, it’s not as rare as you might think you know. You know, in the Civil Rights, for example, there was a lot of Jewish, Black Jewish partnership in fact. We tend to forget that sometimes.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: There’s a few other way more famous marriages of folks who are Black and Jewish and you know, I’m thinking of Marian Wright Edelman and a lot of other people. Alice Walker, the famed author and poet.
Ingram: Yes.
Dr. Miletsky: So her daughter wrote amazing book about it and so — Rebecca Walker. So yeah, it you know, there’s a thing. There is a thing you know, here in the U.S. on that. And my parents are a little — pretty similar to that you know, in a lot of ways except you know, a bit of — they were a little bit late for the Civil Rights Movement.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: They were more — they were more sort of on the edge of the power movement or what other people have called the Rainbow Power Movement and, say, Black power. And they met out in Berkeley, California. You can sort of — the context, the place is right you know.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: And it’s you know, so — like I said, they were a little late for the movement. But it was out of that same kind of spirit and tradition. And for them you know, none of that stuff matter. It was just like two people who met each other you know.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: You know, like, most of these relationships.
Ingram: Right. Let’s talk a bit about what you teach, I mean, go more deep into what you teach at Stony University.
Dr. Miletsky: Oh, yeah. I teach African-American history courses. I teach like — I get to teach some pretty interesting classes, like one class recent African-American history; I love that. I get to talk about the ’90s, I get — I have a lesson on the crack era you know, there being like I have a lesson hip hop you know, yeah. Like we talk about HIV you know, AIDS you know, crisis. I mean, it’s like — it’s pretty satisfying to be able to sort out some of that stuff that was happening you know, so recently. But you know, politics is a big part of it. And we’re going to be offering a class on hip hop very soon. It just got approved actually. So it’s exciting to get to do a lot of you know, my core thing is African-American history and those kinds of classes. But I’ve got a chance to, like, go in other areas. I taught a class on Black popular culture, read a lot of Stuart Hall. The students loved it. We did it you know, so I’ve been dabbling a bit you know, outside of my field, you know what I mean, but it’s fun. And as long as you put the prep in, you know what I mean, it comes out — it comes really you know, it comes out pretty well.
Ingram: Diversity is a good thing, isn’t it?
Dr. Miletsky: It is a good thing. It is. And, yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that — yeah, we have to find, like, some new ways to teach it you know, some of the — some of the true you know, the — people hear the same things over and over again, it gets a little bit boring. It gets a little bit stale. But absolutely, it’s a good thing. And it needs to be embraced in the curriculum you know, and it is, yeah, it really is, mostly due to our department and other multicultural departments at Stony Brook.
Ingram: Right. Let’s talk about your appearance on TED Talks, let’s talk about that and how that came about and what it was about.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah. Oh, the TED Talk. Well, it was an interesting thing because that TED Talk — the theme of that TED Talk was actually on women. And so when they approached me, I was like, “Are you sure you know, you want me to do it? Like, are you sure this is — this is something that you know, you want a man to do?” But — or maybe I was like, “Maybe they have the wrong person.” But it was really fascinating. And I actually had a chance to delve to talk a little bit more publicly about my grandmother who I was talking about before and my mother and really just go through leading up to it, like I kind of had to just like lock myself in my room and really think about my connections in that regard. It was hard. It was not easy. It was a lot of soul-searching and it was a lot of — a lot of stuff got churned up. I was dealing with my own stuff. And I just, wow, I didn’t expect all that you know. I really didn’t expect it. I didn’t see it coming but it was — it was cool you know, even though the theme was women, it was open enough where it was really just like you know, something that I just don’t — I almost didn’t even notice or even think about it actually.
Ingram: Okay. In terms of — people usually have a back story as to why they do something especially when they’re at the top of something, usually someone that may be upset them or there may have been a triggering experience to make them think, “You know what? I can do that better, I can do that a different way, why is this happening that way?” You may have been persecuted and felt, “Well, why me? I’m going to put this right.” And you kind of put some sort of, I don’t know, you become some sort of a — you become molded by experience to go out and make change, why is it that you felt so passionate to go for African studies?
Dr. Miletsky: Oh, wow. Well, it’s — it has to do with some of my mentors actually.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: Okay. I mean, some people — I won’t even just — mentor is not the right word. I mean, friends and — who became colleagues later and who — who cared and looked out for me. And so I — when I — I mean, I guess I could say, like I always loved history you know. I really did. I always liked history, just U.S. history, the stuff you learned in high school. And especially you know, times — the very few times that African-American history would be talked about in those kinds of textbooks in the classroom. I’m sure your viewers know this and I don’t know what the condition is you know, abroad, but here African-American history is mentioned very rarely in U.S. history books. It’s — you may be get like a page on — a couple pages on slavery and — you know, literally, yeah.
Ingram: That’s it? That’s it. We got tutorial over here.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, well, at least when I was in school –
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, yeah, when I was in — right, right, when I was in — when I was in high school, that’s how it was. And I hasten to say that it has gotten as much better as it should you know, but there’s a great book about that called a “Lies My Teacher Told Me” that — well the title says it all. I know. It makes you start laughing and flatter at the same — at the same time. Yeah. But I always like the history. And I think when I was younger and I was at that point where I was like starting to think about my own identity and every mixed-race person, biracial, hell light-skinned, black person might tell you you know, will tell you — in the U.S. especially will tell you, like you go through things around. It’s either colorism within the community or just the “where do I fit in,” you know, “living betwixt in between,” which is a real condition in the literature, a lot of us referred to it as the mixed-race experience.
No matter what the combinations happen to be racially, there is a common set of experiences that all of those people tend to go through being asked what are you and you know, all that stuff. So but anyway you know, when I got to college, I had an amazing gentleman who was there at that time. His name is Steve Pemberton. He’s well-known in other circles today. But back then, he was Admissions Officer at BC where he also went to school, and he was the one who suggested that I take Black Studies class. That’s just true. He was the first one and he insisted on it, in fact. And it changed my life. It basically just changed my life. Once I added — once you added the part about learning about my own Black heritage and my own Black ancestry, which was a big you know, was a gap for me, even though I had gone to school in Roxbury.
I went to William Monroe Trotter Elementary. We sang the Negro National Anthem every day, I mean you know, it’s not — it’s not like I didn’t know anything, but I knew a lot and it had — that had peaked in early interest. But once he added those two things together, I was hooked. I said this is what I like — this is all I like, and that’s what I want to do and that’s — I just started taking Black Studies at Boston College, an amazing, amazing program headed by a woman named Amanda Houston. Back in the day, a lot of folks have taken the helm. It’s a great program.
Ingram: Well, today, I want to pick your brain on the mixed-race experience for a — for a number of reasons and I will reveal those things to you. But one thing I want — but first, let’s start off being — being of mixed heritage or mixed race, is there almost — when you realize that you are of mixed heritage, what’s the first sort of things that you’re confronted with being of mixed heritage? What are the personal questions that — as a young person, not so much as an adult, as a young person, maybe 11, 12, 13 of age?
Dr. Miletsky: Hmm. Interesting you know, it’s funny you mentioned those ages because if I had to pinpoint that moment where I think I you know, really had a sort of consciousness about — in a sort of clarity about the fact that I was — that I identified as a Black man like — or as a — or a young Black when I was 12, but would one day you know, that was around that age, that was around that age, around middle school. I went to a great middle school, Phillis Wheatley Middle School. I don’t think it — I don’t think it’s called that anymore. But that was what was happening then. It was a predominantly Black school you know, great teachers–Roberta Logan and Zuhaira Bilal and some other folk who taught us — they were teaching us about the history. It was — they were planting those seeds then. Race was something we actually dialogued about, especially Mrs. Logan’s class, phenomenal teachers at that school.
And so, all the meanwhile you know, on you know, as kids and as students, we were bumping up against one another. We were working things out, resolving you know, things on a very — in a very sort of expedient way regarding identity and race. It’s not a, you know, at that time, there was not a lot of you know, that — it could be a little bit rough. And so, I mean, what I had happening then was I had friends, one friend in particular, as — brother’s name is Farouk Brown. And he kind of like — he kind of like kind of coached me you know, kind of like you know, this is how — this is how you do it. I’ve been fortunate enough to have a lot of you know, Black big brothers or you know, just friends, like just people you know, who act as a — almost even like a father figure sometimes you know, older guys take your side and they see what you’re going through. They see the struggle you know. And they’re like, “This is a possible answer.”
The problem is a lot of — a lot of times some of us mixed folk, if it happens to be, especially a Black-White mix you know, we have — we have difficult experiences and relationships to blackness and people have a lot of stories, stories of pain. They have stories of you know, of hurt, of rejection. It’s so complicated. It drills right down to our history as a country. It’s like to really you know, and it is like I’m 11 you know. It’s like I’m 12 you know. I’m 11. Oh, yeah, so I’m 12 right now. So what am I, you know — so you get — you get bits and pieces. You’re getting puzzle pieces. I got a lot of puzzle pieces from the teachers, Miss Logan especially, friends you know. You know, people will test you, you know, blackness is not an easy path to walk. You got to — you either better be about it or you have to — I mean, you have to live it, you have to feel it, you have to claim it you know. And that’s what I’ve had to basically always do is just you know, make sure that, like, where folks knew where I was coming from, but it’s coming from a place of love. And actually Black people will reciprocate beautifully because they feel like, wow, you want — you want to be with us? All right you know, like good, like you know.
Ingram: Did you — did you have to pick like, say, “Well, I’m a Black brother rather than being a White brother?” Did you ever have to have to select? Did you have to — did you ever hot fancy and say, “I want them to know I can be White, I am going to be Black, I’m going to be in the middle,” this fight — it doesn’t fight between a Black guy or a White guy in the playground, was there ever an issue for you? Did you ever have to? Or was it just — were you neutral to these things?
Dr. Miletsky: You know, you know it takes a while to become fully consciously aware in a sort of 360-degree way, I think, about how this all works you know.
Ingram: Yeah.
Dr. Miletsky: And you know, and break it all down. For a long time you know, you — this thing called race is so — it’s real you know. It’s okay, right, right, right, okay. I say that because you know, we have you know, this — there’s a lot of misunderstanding sometimes. Like we make the point that under the skin we’re not different necessarily, right? Race is not real there. But day to day in your scenario on the playground, the Black, White, yeah.
Ingram: It’s scary.
Dr. Miletsky: And so, see, Americans see — Americans you know, love for you know, I think like you know, Americans, we you know, we eat, sleep you know, breathe. Like race is just part of us, it’s part of our day to day like you know, you don’t think about breathing, right?
Ingram: No.
Dr. Miletsky: It’s just — it just happens you know, right under your — right under your nose literally, right? That’s how we are with race. Like, we know there’s a — there’s an encoding, much the way maybe like language, I think, works you know, how children can learn, how they say it like at early ages. They can, like, sponges with it, something on that –
Ingram: Yes.
Dr. Miletsky: That’s how race is for us. We learn it at a very early age. We take it in. It’s unfortunately you know, the — what goes along with just race is racism. It’s like mother — it’s almost like mother’s milk to us, and the thing is — unfortunately. But that’s our legacy and that’s real. The problem is it’s also invisible a lot of times you know. It has an invisibility. So something that’s so powerful and, yet, invisible, that’s hard to — to work with sometimes you know. But we you know, we you know, like, I think — I think Americans when we — when we meet each other, there’s a mental thing that happens very quickly. You know, you’re sizing up, your categorizing, where, who, what are you?
Ingram: Wait, are you Mexican, are you Black, are you –
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah.
Ingram: And you look at the — you look at the Hispanic there you know, brother you know, I’m you know, I’m African-American? Huh? Like, why is it?
Dr. Miletsky: Right. Right, right, right, but you know, we do that size up. You may ask and get a different answer. But the sizing up thing is something we do as American without even thinking about it like breaths you know.
Ingram: I get that.
Dr. Miletsky: And it’s true. And you know, and so — and I don’t know how much we’re always aware of it but — so for that reason, if you happen to be ambiguous and you happen to be racially ambiguous, my — a good friend of mine named Keegan has this T-shirt called racially ambiguous, if anybody you know, want to check that out. He you know, if you happen to be in that ambiguous place then you know, they can’t — the sizing up thing doesn’t — it’s not working.
Ingram: No.
Dr. Miletsky: The feed — the input is not coming back, and so — and so that’s where problems can come. And so, 90% of the time you know, I used to — I could explain to you all the multiple scenarios and how they played out, but the point is — but the point is coming back to kind of what you were saying, your question I mean, is you know, in Boston, Massachusetts at that time when I was growing up, the question was, “Why do you want to be with them,” you know, like on the part of Whites. They wanted to — they consent, they’re like, “You look — you got something going on. I don’t know — I mean, we would work with you if you were interested but let us know you know.”
Ingram: You’re okay if you look a little suspect, I mean, not quite white about you but we’re not quite sure what it is.
Dr. Miletsky: We would take you but we would take you, that’s — no, but that’s it. (Laughter) No, that’s it. But we will — we’ll take — we’ll work with you. We’ve taken a lot of people darker than you, so if you want to come in, great. But no, so that’s kind of the thing, it’s like, where do you stand? Why do you, you know, because — you know, and the last thing I’ll say is that, in my case, I’m the mixed-race sort of spectrum as I like to call it. There’s some of us who are sort of more, not really that dude, like I don’t — I’m not like you know, I’m more on the spectrum of White enough to pass you know, on the mix there. And there’s a lot of people like that who I was talking about. So Adrian Piper is another name that folks may want to look up, amazing philosopher, wrote a an amazing piece in Transition Magazine out of Harvard University. It used to be published in Uganda, but she talked about things like that.
She would leave cards you know, on the table that basically — like after hearing and witnessing a racist incident or someone saying something racist, she had these cards already printed. She’s an artist and she had these already printed up and she would leave them you know, and it’s basically essentially said you know, thank you for you know, you know, for your racism and so forth but you know, and it so it was like a thought experiment, really deep. In other words, my experience is the one where I’m in the room and I get to hear the things that people say when they don’t think Black people are around.
Ingram: Wow.
Dr. Miletsky: You know what I mean? Yeah. That’s been my life if I’m just going to keep it 100 as they say. And I used to think it was because, well, yeah you know, I usually know, it’s so weird, we can see our own, I guess, we find our own, yeah, experience that more often than not. People were like, “Ah, I knew it you know, I thought maybe Puerto Rican but whatever,” you know.
Ingram: Puerto Rican. Okay. Let me — let me — let me throw some another way to you. If you argue in another — if you — okay, how important was it for you if your parents sent you to an all-Black school or predominantly Black school, since you told White school or a mixed school, why did they choose — you think they choose you go to a Black — predominantly Black school and the — and what do you think the benefits were or the pros and cons of that?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah. Oh, this is everything. I mean, without that — without the fact that I had to — I attended all Black schools or predominately Black schools my whole life, I’d probably be much different you know, I don’t know what I would be doing now. I don’t know had I been on that sort of journey. I didn’t know I was on any kind of journey by the way, you know, any you know, all these times. But you know, looking back retroactively, I tend to see many things. And it’s really fascinating. I was really like nurtured in the heart of the Black community of Boston you know. And the thing is my mother’s family was kind of like — people knew them, especially my uncle. My Uncle Paul Deere was his name — is his name. And it was — it was a real sort of, you know — so, but they didn’t emphasize it a lot. We didn’t talk about the race thing that much. They just kind of let me do my thing and no one worried about it. But they did put me and out into predominantly Black schools and always, somehow, Montessori. You — I don’t know if people know this about the Montessori movement, Montessori school, anyway. But the Black Montessori is different.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: But in a great way. And so — and so — you know, boy, I got so caught up in that, I forgot what you’d ask me, but you know, I mean –
Ingram: What’s it been the Black school as opposed to being a White school? I mean, put in a white school environment and if you hadn’t been educated about your Black side, I mean, and just being pushed into a White school because of the way you look and because of your features, they said, “Oh, no, let’s go put him in a Black school. Let’s put him in a more of White school you know, he can’t be all that way,” you know.
Dr. Miletsky: Ironic — it’s funny — I mean, it would have been deadly for me you know. I just don’t know who I would have been. I think I would have lived a much different life. But if I had gone to, say, a White school, it’s hard to be — it’s hard for me to be that you know, to represent blackness in such a White space alone, you know I mean? Like, I can’t — I can’t do that. But — it’s pride. But I don’t think it would have been great. The funny thing is — it’s funny you ask that though because you know, in Boston, Massachusetts, maybe some of your viewers might know this, we had a thing segregation in the 1970s. It made headlines across the world at the time you know, basically moving you know, bussing African-American students from Roxbury where I was talking about where I went to school to South Boston, which was then very White and vice versa.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: And a city like Boston you know, if you know Boston, not just Copley you know, the downtown part but like you know, the other parts of Boston, it’s you know, racially that wasn’t pretty — that was pretty hard thing to go through. So anyway, after the bussing thing, there was a new idea of a — for a new school to be a new model, it was called William Monroe Trotter Elementary School. It was the first sort of like school to see if this could work and that’s where you know, that was by the 1980s, that’s where I was gone you know, into elementary school. So this is beautiful Black school, brand-new building named after the famed you know, journalist William Monroe Trotter, the pride and the jewel of the Black community. But they were they had enough Black students. And my mom wanted me to go to that school. My parents wanted me to go to that school. And to do it, to actually get in, they had to put down that I was White because they needed white students at the school.
Ingram: Wow.
Dr. Miletsky: And so the only reason I got was part of that rich Black heritage you know, and all that that came from going to an all-black school was because of a strange twist in the whole system. We got it changed later. But you know, but, anyway, that — that’s how Boston could be you know, after bussing. It was — it was a trip. But yeah, I said you know, I want — I don’t want to say I survived the Boston Public Schools. I credit the school system a lot. But it could — it’s — it was a pretty vigorous place to grow you know, to kind of come of age in.
Ingram: Your mother and your father both acknowledged of you know, that there was a bit — you’re going to be of mixed race or mixed heritage. From your father’s side of things, how much of his heritage did he want to impart on you or how much of that — of being of White heritage, how much of that did he want to impart on you or — because, obviously, you’re put into a Black community now, how much of that Jewish heritage was pushed or pushed upon you as well to keep the balance?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, not much really you know.
Ingram: Okay. I mean, if you think about it — I think in a lot of mixed marriages, whoever the White you know, part — person happens to be in that relationship, whether it’s the wife or the husband you know, they’ve chosen a Black mate, they’ve chosen a Black you know, partner, spouse, that — not in all cases. Now, I want to be — not in all cases, but, oftentimes, we have to re-categorize all of the interracial marriages because — or try to, you can’t get everything, because it’s marriage, it’s life you know.
Ingram: Yes.
Dr. Miletsky: But oftentimes it’s usually a person and oftentimes the White person who is excommunicated from their family for marrying a Black person.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: Right. So you know, they’ve lost their family for this choice. And in my case — in my father’s case that was — that was sort of true for a while. We patched things up. We’ve tried, but rough early years there. And so — all I’m saying basically is that — so for someone who has basically cast their life with Black folk, right, who has been kicked out of their family, you’ve essentially been kicked out. Your whiteness has sort of been revoked in a — in a way; you’re no longer recognized there because you’ve chosen to be with Black people. And that’s my dad you know. That’s basically the story of my father. He’s pretty — he was a pretty courageous individual. He is still with us, thank God. He’s a — he — yeah, yeah, he did. And so in his case, you can imagine his ideology, it’s not one of me, it was you know, that wasn’t like that. He was — he was incredibly supportive. He was incredibly — he knew Black history himself and would talk to me about stuff, very compassionate.
Someone else, a colleague of his who wrote a sort of book of memoirs, this amazing doctor, Dr. Jim O’Connell, who is a doctor, a street doctor to homeless folks in Boston, Massachusetts, my dad worked with him for many years. And he wrote in his book, called my dad’s — I want to get this right, but like a philosopher on race and guilt something to that effect, great book, Jim O’Connell. And, yeah, my dad was like that; I always thought so. He tutored me on everything having to do with the 1960s you know. He has a lot of stuff from the ’60s you know, counterculture stuff. He really brought in my education. I didn’t understand, I didn’t know that at the time but — and gave me a lot of books. I’ve got so many books on Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Black history, most of them are all signed you know, inscription by him. So it’s a — that’s how he was.
Ingram: He encouraged and inspired you. Great.
Dr. Miletsky: Totally.
Ingram: Okay, we’re going to put — so we have more of the psychological side of things. No Man’s Land, not accepted by the White society because you’ve got a drop of black in you, not society — accepted by the Black community because you’re not actually fully Black, you’re White, how does that work and how do you psychologically overcome that No-Man’s Land when you can’t win one way or the other situation?
Dr. Miletsky: Well, see that — the thing is I’ve always — I’ve always felt like unsure about that that characterization you know.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: I mean, for me, for my belief system and who I am and also what I’ve learned and studied as a historian about this country, there you know, there is — there is — it’s not a no-man’s land; there is a place for you. It’s in — it’s in blackness you know.
Ingram: Okay.
Dr. Miletsky: You know, because Black people are the most accepting folk. You know, they’re open. And then also as I had mentioned earlier on, you have — we have something called the one-drop rule. It would essentially you know, at least used to say that if you had you know, any Black ancestry, you are considered Black.
Ingram: It still exists very much so.
Dr. Miletsky: It still exists.
Ingram: Very much so. Very much so.
Dr. Miletsky: Listen, you know, it’s the rule, right? It’s the one-drop rule.
Ingram: Absolutely, it still exists.
Dr. Miletsky: So I mean you know, I think — I think some folk you know, if you try to — and I admire people who — you know, they have — they’ve developed a really complicated and interesting ideologies about where they are racially. And I think — I think of this gentleman, Charles Michael Byrd is his name, B-Y-R-D. Amazing theorist on like that betwixt and between what that was about; interesting perspectives, not always — I didn’t always agree, I didn’t always agree but in fact, yeah, but very illuminating. And so some people you know, I’ve really taken seriously the notion that a White parent and one Black parent you know, that’s both of your heritage is you are both in other words. And I do believe in that to a point. I think that it puts at least, in the case of Black-White by ratios you know, essentially we are another subset of blackness, right? We are struggling about it and we don’t want to quite you know, be there and — sometimes and it can be hard. And so I think it’s the rejection by — some folks have felt rejected by the Black community.
Ingram: Yes.
Dr. Miletsky: Not everybody went to — like me, I just so happened, like I told you, went to all-Black schools and you know, you — that’s — you can — you can hang you know, you can talk, you can be around because that’s who you actually are. But for folk who grew up in like, say, in the suburbs you know, in the U.S., who grew up in you know, areas that did go to the White schools, not the Black schools like I did, whose complexion may even be you know, much darker or just be Black you know, in the suburbs or Black in rural areas, they don’t know that much about Black history sometimes. They don’t — they just don’t have the connections. It’s also luck of the draw you know. It — in a lot of mixed marriages, like any marriages that break up, if it’s the father who is Black who happens to leave, let’s say, okay, you’re not going to get that you know, connection; you’re not going to get that knowledge. It depends. There’s a lot of White mothers who buy those books –
Ingram: Before you go on, I want to hold you right at that point. Black father, White mother; Black father decides to leave because the relationship is confrontational, mother decides to hold father or to stop the child from seeing father and mother wants to keep the child in a White environment, doesn’t want — isolating to just White people, White environment, White schools, and doesn’t want to engage the young boy or the young girl into Black culture or Black community. What are the effects of something like that later on for that young person?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, it’s the luck of the draw. I mean, the effects can be some real damage in terms of identity, dislocation, carrying around and I know a lot of biracial friends and I’ve really observed this who carry that pain still. You know, they weren’t accepted especially during say like the 70s black power era. It’s everyone has got their fists they’re raising black power and you’re coming around and talking about well, a mixed it’s like okay. And yet some very mixed people in the black [Indiscernible] themselves in the black probably who chose blackness. And so that’s my point like, you know, really it’s an uphill battle. If you want to try to go against that grain but a lot of people do it.
But and I think the reason is because of [Indiscernible] about rejection. I actually like started a group, it’s called the Learning about African American Culture or Black because my idea, my notion is that it’s never too late to learn blackness. And you [Indiscernible] with this and carrying this your whole life. You cannot learn blackness but learn black history, black culture that’s kind of like I’ve seen it happen in my classroom, it happened to me. The knowledge is empower, it’s enlightening, it’s exhilarating, it’s life changing. And so biracial is learning about African-American culture and people find it to be very satisfying. Its one thing to identify as black but it’s nice to have a satisfying black like this. You know what I mean?
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: So, there is a lot of satisfaction in learning about that culture. Knowledge is power, always has been, still is. You feel empowered, you feel like you can [Indiscernible] and even if somebody might you know and it happens to me still sometimes people questioning it. I’ve found most often that folks who question my blackness have issues with their own blackness like in every single case.
Ingram: Yes.
Dr. Miletsky: You know, like if we’re all standing in a room together, I’ve found dignified people dressed nice, looking good, you don’t know. You can’t tell like someone inside is hurting about their blackness I can’t tell that. But the way that I can have been able to tell though is the person who is coming and tries to question mine that’s what I’m like bingo. It’s you sir, I didn’t know, okay.
Ingram: But when they look at you, they have got a question, are there any [indiscernible] about themselves they face you and they look at you. And then I’ve got to question further because you’re and the question to be asked, so where are you from? Yeah, I tell, [Indiscernible] black brother. And then the brother goes, no, no, no, no, you’re not black, I’m black.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, well, that’s a good point. It’s not always coming from a bad place. So not always yeah that’s true. I can kind of tell the difference. So they look like they’re about to explode when they say, that’s what well, okay, like there is something going on with this guy. But not all the time, that’s right. And then people are curious, people do want to know. I can usually tell that difference and when I know that it’s a friendly fire I’m like, I’m totally open. But yeah, I think people do want to know or understand a little bit. I think also though I still have to say just a little on it that I think sometimes I don’t know I never thought this could happen. I never even knew if I’d be accepted as such myself.
But I think sometimes people are like oh, like it’s just to being black like, you know what I mean, like how do that, it stops them for a minute and that’s our conditioning man. I mean, like this is oppression is real. The effects of it are real. The effects of colonialism are real on the mind. Let your audience know that black folks of the US we’re also think as a colonized people and that’s been the most useful framework to understand our true, hence in the US to my opinion. Reinvention of the Earth, [indiscernible] the mind. I don’t fault anybody in fact even the guy who was me who just made a comment at me wrong we always [Indiscernible] [00:49:55] because I get it. I’m like you’re in pain, I get that, it’s not your fault, it is not our fault.
We’re brought in the US experience and the Caribbean folks were brought involuntarily into this situation called slavery colonialism and race and the effects are with us still. And those of us who do work to eradicate it we try but it’s still out there, one mind at a time.
Ingram: I was watching a clip actually it was, I Am Not Your Negro, the movie that I haven’t seen the movie yet but I’m going to see it. But there was a clip where you saw black men being pulled off by white officers now for a personal a black person watching that around that time they would I’m sure they’ll be lot. And maybe a lot of beating still was going on. Now for somebody over mixed heritage, black and white heritage if you’ll see a black man being pulled off of a rail by a white or Caucasian individual, what goes on in the mindset of a mixed race individual of a mixed heritage of black and white heritage? What goes on there? And so is there any sort of like maybe some hatred or it’s because I’m black this is going on or because I’m white look at the terrible things I’ve done to black people. How do you interpret something like that when you see it?
Dr. Miletsky: Now if I understand the question I mean, you’re saying how a mixed person might — can you help me with that question a little bit because I want to make — . It sounds like a great question.
Ingram: It’s from the heart that’s probably why it’s so –. You’re watching clips back all things happened in 1970s right and there is a mixed race individual seeing a black man being pushed down or black man being pulled off aside of a street and the police are being very treating the black people very distastefully. How do you view that? How would a mixed race person view that situation or watch things back of that? Would there be any some hatred going on one way or the other? It’s because I’m black this is happening? It’s because you’re white because this is happening? What goes on there when you as a professor or a doctor watching that? What sort of internal feelings you’re getting?
Dr. Miletsky: Well, I mean, first of all, you got to see that movie, you got to see that movie.
Ingram: Yes, I’m going to.
Dr. Miletsky: I Am Not Your Negro, it’s amazing we did a screening of it in Long Island for a very select audience. And it was a communal experience and plus I saw it myself and everywhere I’ve seen it there is a communal experience and response in the audience to what’s being shown. I think that I mean, I can always neutral myself, I think we tend to complicate some of the issues of race we have or it comes down to being even having a distinct point of view.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: Someone is like well, I took it like this and I took it in that direction and you’re like okay. And I mean, me the racial violence it’s familiar to me. We saw it in Boston like there were places in neighborhoods back then and I’m ashamed to say that better now but back in those days there were neighborhoods where black people just simple could not be after dark. We just couldn’t go there. And if you were it was almost 100% chance of some kind of racial violence or racial assault or attack for having breached that borderline. And so when I was watching I Am Not Your Negro and watching some of the ways that we’re policed.
The ways that we’re warehouse that we’re sort of cordoned into one place and controlled. We fool ourselves in our modernity in this time and think well, we have the police and we have law and we have this. What I see is I see the same things I used to look when you look at those images during slavery. If you look at those images during that time it’s a different name to it but the racial control part is the same. You have to be sort of boxed in and forced into. And so I don’t know that’s what I think as a historian I’m trained not to feel anything.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: In fact, when you watch that and that’s a little bit of a pity sometimes and unfortunate being of the field but of course because you feel it of course you feel it. And you want to you wish that things weren’t the way they are that blackness, the skin, the color was not a mark, you know what I mean?
Ingram: Yeah.
Dr. Miletsky: It’s a mark in this country. It’s a visible mark. When you look at the system slavery and how was devised it’s just [Indiscernible] [00:55:48]. They found a way to visibly mark in a sense someone has to slave upon side. There is a new book about that [Indiscernible] [00:55:58] about a lot of other things even Kendi’s book that just came out. And so yeah, Stamped from the Beginning, it’s called and yeah, Stamped from the Beginning and we are Stamped from the Beginning. What a brilliant way to look at it and true. So I don’t know but it’s painful of course.
Ingram: It is absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: All of us I think who work on the side of justice instead of feel that pain. But at the same time from a movement point of view you need things like that. You need the crises, you need the calamity, you need I mean, as hard as it is having Trump as President right now I mean, one thing about it that’s good is the movement has never been stronger. Ten years ago, you could even like find anybody to like do anything. Voter registration, we’re going to have a protest, people are like, yeah whatever. And we’re trying to do anything that was like Civil Rights kind of environment you know nothing.
Ingram: But now?
Dr. Miletsky: And now it’s changed because there is yeah, it’s a thing called it’s about justice. It’s about justice essentially you need then justice can spark our real justice based movement and there is one building now.
Ingram: Okay, now we’re going to start going there.
Dr. Miletsky: Oh, okay.
Ingram: Obama. I’m just going to say a few things and then you can respond to it. All, you black should be happy now because you got black president. We’re not racist in America, we got black and we got black president, all you happy now. And then black people will say, well, no, he doesn’t do anything for us. He does stuff for you but he does nothing for us you get [Indiscernible] others say, we’re proud to have a black president and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [Indiscernible] your take home the Obama era?
Dr. Miletsky: Oh, man, I’ll tell you. There is a scholar named Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor who has a book about black lives matter but then also this article that’s what I believe was for the nation. And it is the best explanation of the Obama era I think I’ve ever read. Yeah and so folks may want to check that out. I mean, basically it was confusing at the time right, we have a black president so like why are all these, why are black young men and women getting arrested or getting killed. Why is Trayvon Martin getting killed? We were having we had a real sort of like crazy moment there. And I think that the racial thing it kind of threw a wrench in the works. It changed everything for the moment. Black was white, white is black. It’s like you can only explain like the fact that Trump got elected now in my humble opinion because we had a black president.
And so the racial thing it changed the landscape. I think it was such across the board change only racial scholars the best some of the best racial scholars could really explain to us what was happening in these last eight years. I took a stand about it written a piece which is hopefully coming out soon. And he was just talking about some of those issues. It’s incredibly complicated, it’s incredibly complex but I think to sum it all up, one thing I would mention is the idea of color blind era that we’re in, right. The post racial era but even not so much post racial yet but the color blindness idea that lends helps to explain a lot of the stuff that took place. I did a whole of talk on this and maybe I just referenced that and it is up now, people look on mixedrace.org I think they put that up. I believe Steven Riley [the editor] put that up.
But yeah, it’s hard to predict sometimes what was happening. We now know that all the wile while Obama was elected obviously like a lot of white nationalists groups and that kind of things who have been were organizing. They were building the tea party, the thing with Trump. All of the science were there and I think we were in a sort of almost like a racial sort of panacea at the time where that’s another part that has not been talked about the sort of eyes closed nature of the black leadership and the black infrastructure during the Obama era because it was sort of, you kind of didn’t have to worry about it. But it was all happening and we sure have paid the price. And Obama for himself I think that people last thing I’ll say about is that people need to stop bending and twisting Obama to something that he wasn’t.
He was a black politician and a liberal politician. He was sort of a centrist democrat and I think that he reasoned I assumed that they reasoned with themselves as the first black president. We’re not going to move in a lot at too many directions on the racial thing, we’re going to just sort of like be the best president that happened to be black. Does that make sense?
Ingram: Yeah.
Dr. Miletsky: So, with that kind of racial approach now could have been different. If someone else Jesse Jackson have been elected I think it’d have been more of a radical democrat but that’s what we got and that’s and black folks as you may recall were slow to accept Obama at first. People came around. John Lewis, I think was with Hillary and a lot of people finally came at the end because so I think a lot of things goy projected on to him, a radical he wasn’t. But at the same time he freed more prisoners probably than anybody else. He went to the prison, I can’t recall another US President doing that but he also had drones and he also did a lot other bad stuff in the name of American Imperialism and yeah, I’ll stick with what I said.
So, I mean, that’s it. You got to take the Obama that was — now it’s time to look at his historical legacy. The moment has sort of passed and really dig down into what he was and what he was not is what I think.
Ingram: But I want to make a point for a moment in terms of Obama and I had it quite what to bring up and I just completely lost it typically. He wasn’t supported as he could will have been. So they say a lot of things he wanted to put into place, he couldn’t put in place because he wasn’t supported. One of the things I know is from the UK or from Europe that was quite evident is that despite us, that despite America talked about their cutting down on racism and racist things even within the government Obama was still being called racist unacceptable names.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, well it happened all across the world too. I mean, there was that Belgium newspaper that had picture of Michelle Obama and Barrack Obama as apes, it was on the cover of –. So right everybody in the world in my opinion but at least your viewers needs to watch a documentary called Ethnic Notions, it’s called Ethnic Notions from 1980s bit dated but actually totally stands up. And it explains the history of sort of those races images and how deeply ingrained they are and people’s spirit and so forth.
And so it’s deeply ingrained or not it’s also a tool to them. It’s like it’s a way of keeping a black man in his place I believe. Okay, like yes, you maybe the President of the United States but here is what we can do to. We can’t destroy you but we can destroy your image or we can try to or we can thus so creative. I used to live on the Midwest of American Midwest at a time. And people would have built things like in their backyards like with stones and bricks and painted it and all horrible stuff it was like lynching or something of Obama or like but isn’t like it just makes you think like what is all the time that you put in stuff like this, you know, was it.
But of course it does it has a powerful effect and so that’s what that imagery is about I think. Yeah, I mean, his hands were tied in a lot of ways. His hands were really tied. As I think we should expect first African-American President nobody saw that coming. When Obama got elected people said I never thought I’d see it in my lifetime, right. Two or three years later it was like, oh, yeah, there is Obama, he is on TV again. You know what I mean? When he first got elected what I remember everybody talking about was like the fear that he would be assassinated.
Dr. Miletsky: I think it’s been enough time now to be able to talk about is I hope is appropriate to talk about I don’t even know. But I remember a lot that’s what was on a lot of people’s minds.
Ingram: Of course.
Dr. Miletsky: Gosh, I don’t know, that’s touchy subject but –.
Ingram: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: But I think you get my point is just so in a lot of ways he succeeded use that as your sort of starting point. And I don’t know how everybody expected that to go. You know, what I mean? I mean, it wasn’t going to go well. It wasn’t going to go great I mean, it wasn’t going to be perfect anyway. But no way and it taught us a lot I think about what’s this I think people really thought racism had gone away. We really was thinking that like we solved this thing. I mean, when I was coming of age in my generation I would be like I guess, Gen X that’s what we thought. We really did like we got a few problems here and there but we’re working on it [Indiscernible] to be races. Not so right now and so Obama’s election was about more than just a presidency, I think it was about the searching for the soul of this country honestly of our country, the US and the world apparently because the [Indiscernible] and everything it’s pretty amazing.
Ingram: Okay, I want the last for today our last kind of full process would the American dream. I hear so much about the American dream, the American dream. Is the American dream limited to white Caucasians because it seems that if you have a drop of black or you’re black then you’re going to get stalked, there is a possibility of you getting shocked and there is a possibility you getting incarcerated. Talk to me, is the American dream an American dream for everybody or is the American dream just for a select few depended on race?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, great question. I think you’re right. Those are infringements upon liberty. You’re not free if you can move about. If you’re a black man and you cannot like drive your car from point A to point B without being stopped, without being harassed that’s not full freedom. And it’s definitely not a fully realized version of the American dream. I think I do think that the American dream is something that has to be [Indiscernible] too, right that’s our legacy in America. African-Americans have been fighting to live that American dream and thereby making it a real thing like through we fought in every American war, right. This time if give our blood and we’ve got, you will finally accept this.
And every single time they find us not the case but it starts to have a residual effect, right. A dream is created. I think that for African-American’s case that American dream it’s not a given, you know that’s the difference it seems to me. There is a black American dream though.
Ingram: Right.
Dr. Miletsky: And it’s one that has had to be hard fought, protected, sustained, the planning, the power that has gone into some of these things that the black church. Don’t forget about the power of that. The thing that people need to understand is America is about certain things from day one, right, let’s just boil it down. We’re about, all men are created equal. This is the home of the American dream. It’s the home of liberty. And yet it could never reach its own goal, right that this country could never quite live up to its own stated principles. Its black folks in America who make America live up to its own stated principles through the Civil Rights Movement and through the different movements. And so therefore its — African-Americans are the ones that helped America realize its own dream.
And without black folks it never would have and it’s like Martin Luther King talked about it, a lot of folks have talked about it but essentially it’s like, this is what you said you wanted to be about. I think that’s how black people look at it’s like this is your stuff. Be true to what you put down on paper, right. But that’s okay, even though you’ve dogged us, even though you’ve treated us badly, we’re going to help you realize your own thing. And we’re going to make it real for you and for black people and for all Americans. That’s the point. Black people are the conscience of this nation. They are the ones that push America to be great, truly great, right and other groups not just African-Americans, Mexican-Americans or Asian Americans, Latino, the young lords, the brown, everybody, the farm workers movement, you know that’s what’s pushed America to live up to its own things.
And a Supreme Court that understood. The Supreme Court apparently has understood what these movements are trying to do all along. And once those cases have come up they affirmed it and they said, yes. And so it’s a broadening of liberty for all people essentially, it’s a broadening of liberty. And right now we’re seeing an assault on that liberty and that’s the problem. But it’s — for black folks it’s not a given, it’s something we have thrived for everyday and thank god like thankfully a lot of people have been willing to do that and are doing it right now as we speak.
Ingram: When will all men be made equal in America?
Dr. Miletsky: It says, we’re only created equal. I mean, I don’t even think it’s about necessarily equality in terms of having everybody be the same but it’s about the access. It’s about equal opportunity just be true again, like I said before. Be true to what you put down on paper. If you said these things are possible for all Americans and I’m an American and I happen to be a black American then therefore I should be able to do these things. And yet there is all these restrictions, there is the 13th Amendment that has in it that clause that explains that essentially, let’s say like if you’re arrested or not arrested but convicted I should say of a crime there was a whole great documentary about it called 13th.
Yeah, the exemption clause then essentially you are slavery is only like exempt is only illegal except where you have been convicted of the crime. In other words, it’s saying right in the law to our faces essentially that if you contradict that that you are in effect legally that slavery is that you are a slave, legally.
Ingram: Legal, yes.
Dr. Miletsky: It was right there and so America is real good like loopholes after slavery you got to remember that in our country Abraham Lincoln at one point he had the idea of removing black people somewhere else. He is the person who wrote the Emancipation Proclamation, the “Great Emancipator” but he himself earlier on had a different idea. Nobody could quite envision what America would be like with black and white people both being citizens like no one could see that. And a lot of people didn’t think it would work a biracial democracy, biracial not in that sense.
And so it’s a great experiment and as I’ve been saying its black folks who push the boundaries and actually widen those rights and liberties. I mean, the Civil Rights Movement and then the other movements that follows. The LGBTQ Movement has used every part of the Civil Rights Movement and then the movement is an important movement and liberated themselves, gay marriage, etcetera. So these things work. Now we’re seeing the backlash to that but in the end its about widening the opportunity for liberty as you say for more and more people but it’s not a given for everybody unless you fight for it.
Ingram: Who do you think was the brainbox to brain all the Africans over to America as slaves and at the end of little day knowing that you brought a first ship of slaves over and you know it’s not working, it’s not working doing it. It’s not working the integration is not working, you don’t want your women to be in pregnant by a black folk but you bring them over. You don’t want to be in your shots, you don’t want to be in your land, yeah, you bring them over. Well, who was the brainbox behind this? And surely now what you’re getting is the backlash for what you created in the first place. Should it just left the people along the way they were?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, yeah, that’s interesting. My mentor, one of my professors, John Bracey, used to teach us. I went to grad school at UMass Amherst and he used to teach us that contrary to popular belief that the south is the most integrated place in the country. We talk about like the years of Jim Crow and segregation and you get this sense of two separate world. But this is yeah, that’s the surface internally and what’s really makes things work is a very integrated society. The food, I mean, if you’re a white southern or during that time of slavery every food you ate was prepared by black hands. We know that but also had a little black seasoning and a lot of it’s like sometimes I’ve been in a city where I want soul food, well, you can’t food soul food. I’m like I’ll take the southern restaurant because they eat the same stuff.
Ingram: Yeah.
Dr. Miletsky: I mean, not everything but I’m sure thats the one you’re going to get emailed about!
Ingram: But there was Rosewood. Was it Rosewood, the movie Rosewood I watched? Was it Rosewood?
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah.
Ingram: That movie disturbed me so much. Yes, it disturbed me so much.
Dr. Miletsky: Great movie. John Singleton.
Ingram: Great movie, yeah.
Dr. Miletsky: I mean an upsetting movie but yeah, they tell it well there, they give a good, they give a good sense of what that’s about perfect exactly. And so yeah, and that’s what I mean, thank you, that’s what I meant by that. And so you know, I think it had to be the money and it had to be mostly greed and had to be mostly that and then a Christianity that sort of seem to justify things at least the way they interpreted it.
Ingram: Portrayed it, yes.
Dr. Miletsky: I’d mean, I mean the fact that most of the slave ships were named after –.
Ingram: Jesus.
Dr. Miletsky: Jesus and the religious thing.
Ingram: 1855.
Dr. Miletsky: That’s, see? Listen yeah, its like why don’t you hold a sign up that says: “I’m feeling guilty about slavery.”
Ingram: I’ve been told stories about the slave ship. It will say the just bring me sweet Jesus and I thought it was actually Jesus but is actually the slave ship get me off from the plantation I want to go back home. So the ship was made as Jesus.
Dr. Miletsky: Amazing, yeah, amazing. You have things like the “Curse of Ham” that’s supposedly able to explain these things in the Bible and a lot of people believe that stuff. They did, they believed in that kind of stuff depends on which era, great work on that black image in the white mind that’s for all that stuff. And I believe and so I’m yeah, yeah, it’s true. And so the clues are there to answer your question about the psyche of thinking there this slave ship means is the clue that suggests something. A lot of things that we end up seeing happening kind of give us an insight into the mind there. And I don’t know, I mean, I think that anyone — people who are wondering like how America became like the richest country and the fastest growing were the youngest empire, youngest sort of –
Ingram: Exploitation.
Dr. Miletsky: It’s yeah, a shortcut, so sure, it’s a big shortcut.
Ingram: And it’s the only way it could have been done.
Dr. Miletsky: It’s had devastating effects and consequences. And so you got to that’s now we’re drilling down. It’s this thirst; a hunger for conquest.
Ingram: It’s on power.
Dr. Miletsky: It’s unimaginable. Yeah, willing to do anything, go through anyone, yeah. But also with an understanding though like we tend to think they didn’t understand anything about Africa. But they did, they knew that Africa had had its empire already. Africa had had its place already and they knew of that great empire. But they’re like they’re not doing so great right now like we can exploit this and that’s what happened that’s part of what happens.
Ingram: Wow that is definitely something we need to go more in depth with another conversation because we’re going to get all day, all night talking and it’s so much.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, that’s right.
Ingram: Doctor, is there anything else you want to just give us to end on for just for today?
Dr. Miletsky: Well, yeah, I mean, I would thank everybody for listening. I mean, I think that the thing is we got to talk to each other more like this.
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: I want to thank you brother for this and thank you for your show and thank you for what you do because it’s hard to get people to talk about all this stuff. And I don’t always have the opportunity to do it but it’s like, it’s real critical, the timings demands it. The timing demands it and we got to figure it out, we got to start talking to each other. We have to share what we do know and what I don’t know maybe you know and we match that together and then we might figure out a piece of the answer because it’s got to be about some solutions. It’s got to be about clear thinking and I like your show, I love how you do this.
And it’s good clear thinking and answers because like a lot of the stuff we look around and think, well, like I started like that I said. People said like you’ll never solve racism that’s unsolvable. You can’t solve that stuff no, but that’s how we used to think. I mean, [Indiscernible] [01:23:26] that’s how it work.
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: It was like that’s something that’ll never been solved. No, it turns out there is a science. It’s called black studies first of all and it’s called also whiteness studies and it’s called anti-racist curriculums. And there are some stuff those things that work. There are some stuff that actually works and you can spark that change. And so we’re not interested in doctor or anybody, we’re just interested in finding the truth.
Ingram: I’ll tell you where you stop. Your greatest expo. Do you know what America great expo is?
Dr. Miletsky: Britney Spears.
Ingram: Media. If you could change the way those who control the media control the minds. And I believe that if we were to educate via the media and stop propaganda and saying one race versus the other race and put things out the way they should be as opposed to the way they wanted to be. And the history, not his story but the truth, the facts, if those things are put out the way it should be, great people come from how they got there, the original points. If those things are put out there then there is less room for the finger pointing the accusations and the preconceived ideas.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah.
Ingram: Because medias tell the truth.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, you’re onto something. I think you’re onto something, it’s true. It really is and it’s only in that confusion and then fake news and everyone is confused and social media is a factor. I don’t care what happens. I mean, 30 years from now they might be beaming the information into our cerebral cortex. What will never change is facts and evidence and argumentation and information that’s universal.
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: They had to do it in 1776, they had to do it in 1619, they got to do it in 2017.
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, and so its about hope. I love what you do man [Indiscernible] so it’s a blessing and it’s a beautiful thing that I’m really glad to be part of.
Ingram: Doctor, we look forward to having you on our regular basis to educate us and to stimulate the mind. And with your expertise and my enthusiasm hopefully together we can continue to educate others and stimulate conversation and maybe just change some mindsets if not change then just flicker light switch on.
Dr. Miletsky: Yeah, one mind at a time.
Ingram: Absolutely.
Dr. Miletsky: All right, brother, thank you so much.
Ingram: Dr. Miletsky, thank you so much for talking to BWTM.
Dr. Miletsky: All right.
Dr. Miletsky: There you have it Dr. Miletsky from Stony [Brook] University with us. We appreciate you, and thanks for watching. Take care.
Dr. Miletsky: All right.
