Expat Empire Podcast 21 | Working in China and the Netherlands with Patrik Wilkens | Expat Empire
Episode Description
In this episode of the Expat Empire Podcast, we will be hearing from Patrik Wilkens. Originally from Germany, Patrik followed his brother to China at the young age of 20 and stayed for eight years. After returning to Germany for another six years, he moved with his family to the Netherlands to further develop his career. With stints working in multiple countries around the world, he has a lot of great advice to share, so take notes!
In this episode, you will learn:
- The skill sets you can develop abroad that will help you no matter where you end up in the future
- How to put your career in the fast lane by going international
- The difference in deciding where and when to go abroad when you are young and single vs. older and with a family
- Excellent tips for building your personal and professional networks in a new environment and culture
…and much more! You can follow Patrik on TikTok at https://www.tiktok.com/@gameindustryinsights and find him on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrik-wilkens/. He also organizes events for Game Industry Networking at gameindustrynetworking.com.
Eli Hermit produced the music for this episode, please check him out on Bandcamp at elihermit.bandcamp.com/.
Please leave us a rating and review at ratethispodcast.com/expatempire.Learn more about Expat Empire and schedule your free consulting call to plan your move abroad at expatempire.com!
Episode Transcript
Intro
Welcome to the Expat Empire Podcast, the podcast where you can hear from expats around the world and learn how you can join them.
Hi everyone, thanks for joining us today for the 21st episode of the Expat Empire Podcast. I hope you all had a safe and memorable holiday even during these difficult times. I’m very glad to be able to kick off the Expat Empire Podcast in 2021 with a great interview I think you’re all going to really enjoy.
Before we start the interview, I want to let you know that while things still look bleak in many places around the world, this is an excellent time for you to be thinking about where you want to be living after we come out of this challenging situation. Moving abroad normally takes at least a minimum of 6 months of planning, so this is the perfect time to get started.
At Expat Empire, we’re seeing a large increase in people reaching out to discuss their moving plans as we begin a new year, and you can join them! Whether you are looking to make your first move abroad, move to a new country, or transition to life as a digital nomad, we’re ready to help you think through the next steps in your journey abroad. We’re currently offering a limited number of free 30-minute consulting calls to help people just like you to jumpstart their moves abroad, so please contact us to book your time before it’s too late and our busy agenda fills up!
With that said, today we will be hearing from Patrik Wilkens. Originally from Germany, Patrik followed his brother to China at the young age of 20 and stayed for 8 years. After returning to Germany for another six years, he moved with his family to the Netherlands to further develop his career.
Without further ado, let’s start the conversation.
Conversation
David McNeill: Hey, Patrik. Thanks so much for joining us today on the Expat Empire Podcast.
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah, David, thanks a lot for having me — much appreciated.
David McNeill: Yeah, I know we’ve been talking about getting together on the podcast for a while, so I’m really glad that it finally came together, even if it’s here at the end of the crazy year of 2020. So thanks so much for making the time.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, of course, a pleasure.
David McNeill: So I’d love it if you could first tell me a little bit about your background, where you’re from, where around the world that you’ve lived so far, and where you are right now.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, I am German, originally from Germany. I moved to China when I was I think around 20 years lived there for a while 8 years and then moved back to Germany for 5, 6 years. And now I’m actually in the Netherlands in the beautiful town of Amsterdam.
David McNeill: Okay, wonderful. So you’ve definitely had a worldwide adventure and it’s interesting as well that you have the opportunity to go back to Germany for a few years after China and then go to a brand new country. So I’m really excited for us to dive into that further. Where do you think that your interest in living abroad originally came from, especially at 20 years old? How did you think, China’s the place for me?
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah, I’d love to tell you a big story on how this was all planned and you know, being German, maybe somebody expected that as well. But the answer is actually more, it’s simple, my older brother, who lived in China, invited me to visit him in my last year of high school. And yeah, so I traveled there, I really liked the vibe, I liked the people. I liked that things were very different and I decided to go there for a year after finishing high school and I did. And every year I kind of like called my parents and told them that I will stay a while longer and I stay another year and another year and another year. And yet it became ultimately 8 years, I am trying to say it wasn’t really, you know, like an urge to leave rather than after experiencing it for the first time, as a desire to have that, you know, the experience of feeling a while longer. And yeah, I still enjoy having it.
David McNeill: Yeah, I can imagine, it’s great to hear that you were able to take it step by step, as you said, year by year. What was it at the end of those years, did you ever think before you actually ended up leaving that okay, did you have any question of, am I going to stay one more year or not? How did it ultimately culminate in deciding to leave after 8 years instead of after year 1, year 2, and year 3? Was it just too much fun or what was it that was keeping you there?
Patrik Wilkens: Really good question. On the one hand, China is a great country and just the opportunity to be there. Again, my background on the work side, I do work in gaming and for games, you know, 2006 or 8, in 2010 has been really interesting years for gaming in China, actually. So that was one major reason, of course, for me, to stay there. Another reason that I had was I was always, you know, like looking also towards my friends, seeing what they’re doing right now and, you know, seeing if I can kind of like, yeah, keep up. There was a very healthy amount of peer pressure and then obviously competitiveness. So, I was always looking and benchmarking myself and it really made a lot of sense for me to stay in China because things were developing so rapidly. You know, there was a great community, I mean, the way that we met was through a common friend, actually.
So this expat life, I think it’s really different, people have to experience the international vibe, the different types of people that meet on a regular basis. It’s just a very energizing kind of experience that I did really enjoy having there. And that’s what kept me in China and what actually made me leave China. Many things came together, there was a personal reason, my father, his health, wasn’t that good and I wanted to spend some more time with him. 2013 was a point where China as a country in relation to games was less interesting because it was much more inward-focused at that point. And another really important reason was that there was a great opportunity in Germany, a great next career step. And maybe the most important of all was you know, I met my wife in China, we got married. You know, we thought about the next stage of our life and Europe was more of an opportunity there. So again, we decided to return.
David McNeill: Yes, that makes perfect sense. And as far as getting your first start in China, I mean, going back to the beginning of that story. Because I definitely think that there’s a lot we can dive into in terms of your experience there. How did you find your first opportunity or how did you get your start other than having that first trip, but to really make a long-term move that ended up being 8 years in total in the end?
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah, so, I mean, again, my first start in China was to simply live at my brother’s place. But shortly after I had the opportunity to actually work for a Chinese company, to help them create a brand experience and also sell their products to a Chinese audience. And it was amazing because again, in Germany for Germans, things are a bit more structured. And, you know, unless you have had an apprenticeship for 3 years in this particular field, or unless you studied and have a degree in that particular field people usually do not give you the opportunity to succeed. And China was very different. I had a conversation and we gave it a try and it worked out quite well for us. The person that I did business with till today, we are in really close contact, we meet each other regularly, still did a couple of other things together in the meantime. And that was really for me, the kicker that I realized, you know, Jesus, unlike other countries in this world, if you’re good at it and you can show it, you know, you get the chance of actually doing it. And that really was a feeling that kept me in China for many, many years.
David McNeill: That’s a great point. And I get the question many times about, is it better to develop your career internationally first or to start out in your home country? And in fact, does going abroad help you to get higher up on the leadership level and potentially pay scale quicker than if you were to stay in your home country. Naturally, that depends on the industry, the countries that you’re talking about, a lot of factors. But what’s your general take based on your experience? It sounds like from what you just mentioned that indeed you were given more opportunities, more chances to lead and to move up in your career by actually going abroad. What’s your general impression or perhaps advice for other people?
Patrik Wilkens: I agree and you made a really valid point there, it depends on the industry, it depends on the country, it even depends on the time that you go there. So talking about China, talking about gaming, because that’s something that I’m more familiar with, you know, gaming in China today is very different than gaming in China you know, in 2006, when I moved there. And for foreigners, that’s even more true because, in 2006, I went to China or China was still at that point in time for gaming. Again, this part that I’m talking about has been a country that was mainly focused on outsourcing work. So, you know, you were more likely to find a job in a company that is actually working with one of the big international companies and doing cost-efficient development of games. And of course, since then China developed into a gaming powerhouse, you know, it’s the biggest country in terms of revenue for mobile games. For example, you know, the audience shifted towards a more national audience, meaning the Chinese audience becomes much more powerful. So again, 2006, Patrik wouldn’t have made the same career in 2020 as I could have done in 2006, I think that’s really important. And to the second part of the question could I drive or climb the ladder up faster, I do think that’s true. The experience in a foreign country really helped me and still helps me today actually to just, yeah, be more open, you know, have more experiences. And I think all of those parts help you as the manager to become more successful.
David McNeill: So it’s fantastic to hear that you were able to leverage that experience into more personal and professional growth, not just in China, but abroad in your home country as well. But as you said, it was different in 2006 versus looking at 2020 right now. So perhaps you were just on the fortunate end of the luck scale or the luck factor was there. But you were in the right place at the right time, and in an essence, according to what I’m hearing so far. So how do other people make that happen or do you see any other particular economies on the horizon that are on the way up that might provide a similar opportunity to people looking up in the next 2, 3 years to make a move abroad?
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, when I would look into gaming and maybe beyond that into some of the reports that I’ve read to me it seems Southeast Asia in general, again, not China because China developed very far already. But like Indonesia, for example, India, certainly, and some of those countries, Vietnam are some of those, you know, rising stars. And there are many more, I think everybody just has to read the latest, whatever Ernst and Young report on the state of the industry. And against, in particular, I think those areas in those counties are also quite, quite relevant. So again, if I would be looking into a similar environment that I found in China in 2006, in 2020 or 2021, I would probably be looking into those kinds of countries. And then if you go maybe in 2025, and again, I’m not an economist and I’m not particularly smart. But again, if you would ask me today, I would say 2025, you know, Africa, certainly Nigeria I’ve seen is going to enter the G7 eventually. So that probably be a country for me to move in again, even in gaming, by the way.
David McNeill: Yeah, oh, that’s some great advice and some good places for people to look for opportunities. So when you just moved to China, of course, you traveled there first, but when you moved and started that followed by 2 years and so on through 8 years, which city were you based in? How did you find it originally, as far as, you know, openness to foreigners being able to adapt and kind of adopt the Chinese culture and society with the language? Just give us kind of your initial impressions and how those first few months, and maybe even the first year went for you.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, I actually started my China adventure in Shanghai and I ended up in Beijing. And I changed from Shanghai to Beijing relatively soon because that’s where the opportunities have been at that time. And so again, I did the move there and in terms of openness, I think one of the beauties of going into another country is to be open to that country. And rely on that more than you rely on the openness of the other country to be open to you if that makes sense?
David McNeill: Right.
Patrik Wilkens: So for me, what I always loved about it is that I was a German in China and I never had the aspiration and I would not recommend anybody actually to have this; to expect the country to change towards you. But you should adopt, you know, the best thing, take whatever is best in your country and of your mentality, you know, and try to bring that to the place that you’re living in. But also whatever is best in the other country, you know, really adapt to them and make it your new reality, and that’s what I always try to do. I tried to do that in the Netherlands, and I certainly tried to do that in China, and also, by the way, I tried to do that in Germany. And take whatever was best in, you know, from my experiences in China and try to bring that to Germany as well. So that really helped me a lot, it’s what, today, I still believe to be the best advice to myself, actually. I don’t know if other people will benefit from it, but, but I certainly benefited from it.
David McNeill: I’m sure that they will. What were some of those things that you did in the early days to adapt to the Chinese culture, as opposed to trying to kind of impose your home culture, as you mentioned what did you do to integrate yourself into the society and culture and make yourself an active contributing member of a society of course, outside of your work?
Patrik Wilkens: Good question. I mean, of course, paying taxes was a big thing, right, like after starting your job, if I’ve done nothing else, at least I pay my taxes and contributed to this part. I think it was really queuing, for example, is a great example, queuing is a great example. In China, at least while I was there queuing was not necessarily a concept that people adapted to. So it was really a free-for-all whenever you were entering the subway or the bus or anything actually. And I could have probably been very German and I’ve seen some people, I do have some, not a lot but some German friends of course. And a really small set of those German friends complained a lot about, oh, you know, why isn’t anybody queuing there, you know, why aren’t they doing it as we are used to, you know, in Germany. And then yeah, why would they, because it still works and it worked for them, it honestly, probably still works for them to do it the way that they’re used to. And once I accepted that, and once I try to find, you know, 1.3 billion people that tried to convince them that the way that I think is the best way is certainly the only way in this world to act. You know once I accepted the fact that it’s not better or worse, it’s just different and in this country, this is how we do things. Yeah, for me, it was easy and I never second-guessed it and I was everybody else on the subway trying to, you know see my way around.
And had a personal pride if I was the first in the car, I think the only exceptions were really when there was like, you know, whether there were kids in front of me or like an older lady. Right, I think that’s when you remember and also to the defense of Chinese people, that’s when they also remember that there is something more important than being first. Which is, you know, help some of the people that are for whatever reason I’m not able to go there for… So again, that’s one of the examples of really adapt to the culture and accept that you’re in another country and accept that this other country has something to teach you. And once you have that openness you know and that willingness also not just open this but also willingness to learn. I do think you are able and very well equipped to live wherever you want. And then it doesn’t matter if you speak the language whether; I didn’t speak Chinese at all. Staying in the Netherlands by the way, I did not speak, oh, although of course German and Dutch are very similar. But you know, once you have that openness, it doesn’t matter, don’t worry about the language, and don’t worry about the job have that openness go to the country, you’ll be successful, and I honestly believe that.
David McNeill: Well, that’s great advice, but I think it will take some of the listeners, maybe some extra courage to make that happen. Do you feel like that’s just your general outlook on life, or have you developed that as a result of your international experiences? Of course, they may go hand in hand, but when you were 20 years old, did you; it sounds like maybe you just had that deep belief within yourself that I’m going to go. Of course, you had your brother there, so that’s great, you had that first landing pad, but then let’s just figure it out. Was that your mentality or do you think that that’s something that has changed in you over the last 14 years abroad?
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah, I think nature was nurture, right, is that how you say it in English?
David McNeill: Yes.
Patrik Wilkens: Honestly, it was a mix of both, I think you need to have a certain openness to it and you have to have a certain mindset to embark on the journey. But once you’re on that journey, I think the experience that you make on a day-to-day basis shows you that this is not the only way, but one way that gets you further in life and I think you can stick to it. So I think once you’ve done the first step on the journey, once you bought the ticket, once you agreed to be somewhere for 6 months or for a year, I think that is probably more a mindset topic. But once you are there, I think the experience will just show you that this is a smart move. And by the way, I’m not the only one saying it, I think most of the people that I met in China and I’m still in contact with really great people. Some of my closest friends have a similar story that they came to China first, and then they prolonged and stay there longer.
David McNeill: Did you find out of curiosity that the German, subset of friends that were, for example, quite frustrated at the queuing issues that you talked about. Did those same individuals managed to make it work for themselves in China, for the long-term or did they tend to go back earlier, on the earlier side compared to other expats there? Because I think that adapting and trying not to get too frustrated at the local norms is a key part of being successful abroad. So I’m curious if they were able to find success eventually?
Patrik Wilkens: No, I don’t think they did in the end; and for some, I know that they didn’t. And success does not mean they are successful at life, yes, and they have found places elsewhere in the world. Mostly in their home country and they have great careers and great families and go in a relationship, this is what I’m saying. But if you ask me if they’ve been successful in China in the long-term or really enjoyed the trip, as much as maybe I have some other people to join it, I don’t think they did and I think that’s one of the key risk indicators. If you have somebody, or if you are yourself a person that is very judgmental or has a very high opinion on how things are supposed to be done, then probably you should not pick a country where things are fundamentally different, right. Maybe pick a country that’s closer, you know, if you’re American go to Canada and that’s a European opinion, by the way. I’m pretty sure if you are actually American, you, you like, what are you talking about, Canada or China same thing, you know, it’s all a different culture. But yeah, stick to a country that’s closer to your own if you; still do it, but again stick to a country that’s culturally more close to what you’re used to.
David McNeill: I think that’s a great piece of advice and probably goes without as much thought for most people go with as much thought behind it as it should be. Which is, if you are a bit rigid in the way that you want to do things, or you think that your home culture, home country maybe does things better in some certain aspects in other countries than indeed. There are so many countries out there that maybe you don’t necessarily need to go as far away from that culture that you used to as you possibly could. So there are plenty of options. And I think that’s a great point, I should probably spend more time thinking about that on my own. Well, I think I’ve done a decent job, but I hadn’t been able to put it together so succinctly before, so I appreciate the insight.
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah. And for you, I mean, again, right now you’re a part of it, right. So that’s, I think is also a great country to be in and I think also culturally different to what you’re used to, right? So I think you picked a good spot for yourself.
David McNeill: Yeah, I think I ended up in the right spot and it’s for the reasons that you mentioned, but definitely I guess it, yeah, it wasn’t said so directly. And I think that that’s great for people to think about. I’d love to hear a little bit more about how you developed your career in the gaming industry. It sounds like it was a great place to be when you were first in China. But how did you get your start? I’m sure there are some listeners that are curious about how they can break into that industry and get those opportunities. And just to hear about how your career has developed since those early days.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, again, not just China, but also gaming of course advanced a lot, but I will try to make some examples that are still relevant today. And I’m not just talking about like guess I’ve been lucky, that’s your takeaway, better right, Patrick. So I started gaming in 2008 in China and believe it or not, I was actually answering an advertisement in a local newspaper in the Beijinger. And the headline was; are you interested to work in the games industry. So I read this and I was like, yeah, hell yeah, I’m interested to work in the games industry. I mean, I do not have a background there other than, you know, I am an avid gamer. But I certainly have the willingness and I think also general ability to make things work that I’m interested in. So I applied and I got the job and it was honestly the best thing professionally that happened to me.
Because not just did I get a chance to work in the gaming industry, but I also had, you know, amazing teams and bosses from the start, you know, Are Mack Growen, Ori Elraviv,2 great guys. And I met many people through them and because of the opportunities there, so it was a great start. Not just a great country, but also great, great, great company to start with and a great process to have.
David McNeill: And as you developed in your time there, I know you also started the game industry, a networking group. Could you tell us a little bit about that and also really in general, more broadly, how you developed your network in China, outside of, you know, your colleagues, your coworkers, and maybe how other people can try to tackle that when they move abroad?
Patrik Wilkens: Oh yeah, I mean, here is, Patrick’s a one of a 2, 3 step, let’s see where I end up at advice for people who are bored. I mean, the first thing is, you know, do a team sport, if you’re a tennis player or, you know, yeah, fine, start playing at least double. But really football, you know, basketball, any team sport basically hockey doesn’t matter, pick a team sport. Because every city that I know of has a certain club in this sport and usually that’s where all the expats gather? And these people are very open and do great at welcoming the community. So one of the best things I’ve actually done was to join a 5 side soccer team. And that’s, by the way also where I met quite a few people and that really helped. And those was one of the reasons also for me to actually start gaming this to networking, actually have been taken to some of the dinners, was a dinner that was happening on a monthly basis. I think every first Thursday in Beijing and I was in a way the youngest, the most junior one to be taken to those dinners? Again, thanks to Aramai, my boss at that time, who brought you there? And it was so obvious to me that this is the place where everybody should be because you know, everybody around you is smarter than you; you know, had more experiences, has done more things in life, you know, better than you.
And just I’m a talkative person, but just being at those meetings and just be quiet and listen was such an experience and helped me so much in becoming a better person, myself. That it was an absolute no brainer for me to grow that to say, well, you know, we need more people, we need smarter people. You know, I just need more people to listen and learn from. And that was really the reason for me to start again, just do networking and make it professionally. I never made money with it, I don’t plan to make money with games networking other than learning and getting an energy kick every time an event like this is hosted. Again, we started in, I think in 2010 it was, and by now we’re still doing it and yet to be honest, yes, of course, it grew right. We have a lot of C-level decision-makers attending those events you know, we do that during every major gaming conference, like summer, whether or not this is in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Berlin, Amsterdam, doesn’t matter. We usually try to do like dinner by now, this dinner is fairly well-known, so we already have a lot of people that are generally interested in it and asking. And of course, it makes it easier, right?
As opposed to the early days, when you still had to, you know, be your best ambassador yourself, right, go out there, actively ask people. It actually changed, I think around 2012, so I think it changed actually significantly, more people are asking me to be invited that then I actually have to ask and invite. That’s another thing that makes things easier, but it’s also a sign I think that this is something that people value, right? Like an honest exchange of stories, information, in general, just having a good time in a casual environment without any sales pitch or content marketing. Because that’s one thing we really don’t do, I think it’s good; which by the way, can be copied. I didn’t invent something new, I basically just took what other people have done before me and did it for the games industry. So if you were listening to this one and you were in whatever in automotive or in education, it doesn’t matter where you are. You know, you can copy that yourself.
David McNeill: So I guess that wraps up maybe most of the conversation for us today, around your time in China. And you talked already at the beginning about why you decided to leave, but I wanted to touch on one question there; which is, you said by the time I believe it was in 2013 when you decided to leave that the games industry was not as interesting anymore and you talked about the evolution a little bit. But I just would love to get a little more background on how you saw it shifting and also how you were ultimately able to find your next opportunity, which was indeed back in Germany, your home country.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, and to clarify the games industry, of course, even today, I’m pretty sure in 50 years, it’s still going to be very interesting. But for me in China; the amount of value I could add to the games industry in China was not that much anymore. So that was really the point when I realized professionally it’s time to move. And again, together with personal reasons of meeting my wife, with my father not being well in Germany, that those 3 things really were the main reason for me to do the move ultimately. And what happened, so as I mentioned in the beginning, the Chinese user, the Chinese gamer did not spend as much money on games as they’re doing today. And the Chinese audience was not as much a focus even for Chinese developers as it is today. So while it was perfectly reasonable and smart for a foreigner to be in China, working for a predominantly Chinese company, although my boss were foreigners, again, 98% of the company was actually Chinese while it made sense. At that point, it would not make as much sense today anymore, given my command of the Chinese language and some game design experience.
Because today Chinese game design is quite unique in a positive sense, it’s very monetization driven, it’s very fast-paced, and there are a lot of life operations.It’s expanding a game from its core to like it really like behemoths of multiple features and Meta loops. That’s really something that people in Asia and that people in China do particularly well and probably do better than Europeans. So why would the Chinese company today; we had a guy from Europe to go to China to develop the game in China for Chinese people; it’s just not that easy anymore. And that became a bit more apparent in and again; the Olympics by the way, has been a major change in my opinion, towards how Chinese and foreigners interact and also how foreigners see China. Again, the Olympics were 2008 was one really big change and then again for the games in the financial crisis, of course, 2007, 8, 9. And then the games industry shifting in roughly around, yeah, I would say 2000 and don’t nail me down on this one, but again, 2011, 2012, I think there were enough signs like where you were seeing friends leaving.
You know, there were not that many new foreigners coming in, obviously having the game’s networking, I was very much up to date on everything happening, right? I’ve seen other companies, you know, there hiring plans and the ideas, and a lot of changes again. Being at that networking event, not just hosting it, but simply being at that networking event, you know, being in touch with your industry. And again, it doesn’t have to be games that can be whatever you like, but just being up to date on things. I think it was also clearer for me to see the writings on the wall in a way. And today, if you look at it, the number of foreigners in China and the amount of foreign-owned enterprises in China. It’s just less than it has been in; well, the percentage of those, maybe not the total number, but the percentage of those in relation to Chinese organizations.
And certainly in relations to Chinese organizations, generating revenue is far less than it has been in 2008, for example. So again, all of those reasons why my value ad for the Chinese gaming industry was diminishing year-over-year,and then taking that experience of 8 years in China, bringing it to Europe, that was a very obvious benefit to myself, but also to the companies that I worked with. So it was relatively easy for me to actually make the move from again, China to Europe. And then it turned out to be Germany, there were some other offers on the table. But of course also my father, my father’s health made it an obvious choice to actually go to Germany.
David McNeill: Yeah, thank you for that overview; it’s really insightful and helpful. And I’m curious as well when you looked at the idea of 8 years in China, how can I leverage this experience in Europe? It’s great to hear that there were many companies that were receptive to that, but I think if you know, 8 years is 8 years. It’s not 2, 3 years and it’s also not 20 years, it’s a long time. So do you ever get a sense that there was some, not hesitancy, but more like a, you would be fitting more into a China-focused role even in another country, even in Germany? Or was that never an issue, was it always welcoming this, you know, your 8 years in China experience with open arms from an employer’s point of view,
Patrik Wilkens: Really good point, I was having a call a week ago, I think with a friend from China. And what he said is something that other people that I met and also I feel every now and then. Is after all those years in China or doing another job, people forget that you have that China experience as well. So, and I would assume it’s not related to China’s related to the foreign experience at one point, you have that experience for yourself and you have it also in the resume somewhere. But you have it mostly for yourself; I don’t think that the job in Germany nor the job today, or the job in 5 years from now, my experience in China will be the deciding factor. What will be a deciding factor hopefully is my open-mindedness, my experience dealing with multiple cultures, my flexibility, fixing issues in a variety of environments. You know, my experience starting things from scratch in an environment that is unknown, I think those things are more valued. And then again, whether or not you have been; if you’re a German in China or in American in Brazil or Brazilian in whatever Poland, I think having that experience is more important than the country that you have that experience in.
So as a result of that, I do not think that you should focus on keeping the experience of that country.One exception, of course, if, and I haven’t done that, a bit, of course, but not that much, if you would have been in China and if you would have studied Chinese a lot. And if that would be really, you know, like a superpower of yours, now you are one of the few foreigners that speak perfect Chinese that can write a contract in Chinese, all of those areas. Of course, then yes, it makes sense to, or any other language for that matter. It makes sense, of course, to make that one of your USP’s and you would be all related to that country because of it. If that’s not your focus, still the mindset, the experience; for me for example, having been in China, what I learned is that management, whether or not it is agile or waterfall.
Whether or not it is, you know, like a top-down bottom-up approach, whether or not it’s more offered, you know, participatory or delegators mentioning style. There are many, many ways that lead to Rome in a way, there are many, many ways of managing and dealing with teams. And there are many, many ways of dealing and managing different cultures. So just that understanding that the German way is not the only way, just the understanding of the American way is not the only way. Just this openness already gives you a competitive edge against everybody else who didn’t have that experience. Once you have that experience, you will be able to leverage it and you will be a better manager, a better person, a more open-minded person for that. And I do think that more open-minded people have a chance to add more value to wherever they are.
David McNeill: Yeah, I think it’s a wonderful point and I’m glad that you’ve had that experience. And now that let’s say after China, you were there for 8 years, you went back if you got a job in Germany, you went back to your home country and you started working there. Did you have any reverse culture shock or did you find that you’re indeed; your increased openness and open-mindedness is at odds over with, you know, your colleagues or your friends or just your network there in Germany as well?
Patrik Wilkens: Luckily, shout out to all the German friends that I know from kindergarten, actually and from my earliest years of a child, they always put up with me. It’s an amazing group of people that I’m yeah; can’t express how fortunate I am to draft those guys and girls in my life that never was a culture shock. So once I met them again, it was like, as if I’ve never left, so that’s a good thing. At work, yeah, very much, of course, it was a culture shock. I mean, back in the day in China, it was very much top-down the manager needed to know everything kind of an environment. You are not really asking, you are telling people and it was not slavery, very far from it. We had really close and great relationships and we went to each other’s weddings, we knew each other’s wives. So it was even though you were the boss, in some instances, or degree, of course, there also, it was never as bad as it might sound when I’m talking about it. But yeah, the same way of approaching people in Germany did not work at all. And I had to learn that and I had to learn that there are advantages of doing it the Chinese way and I had to learn that the advantages of doing it the German way.
By the way, my professional career, my very first jobs, I had some student jobs, of course in Germany, but my first professional jobs for the first 8 years were all in Asia.So I’m actually Asian educated if you want to say it this way, and I had to re-educate myself, once I arrived in Germany. And that’s another learning that I had just by speaking the language, doesn’t make you part of the culture. Like you have to not just the same way, by the way, just speaking Chinese doesn’t make you more adept to China I don’t think. It helps, but it does make you more adept, the same way just speaking German, doesn’t make him more adept you have to kind of also get a feeling for the culture. And yeah, of course, it was a reverse culture shock, especially of course with my parents and the older generation, right? The more traditional people, sometimes they’re just looking at me and shaking their heads, you know, it should, this level of like, why would you ever do that?
And then the answer is, yeah, because I lived 8 years abroad and I’ve seen other people doing it and not, and the world still continued to turn. And that subject, what thing, regardless of culture, people have in common. And that’s the amazing thing about being in a foreign country.
You ask in the beginning, hey is it your nature, is that the nurture? You know, we agreed it’s a bit of what, I said could be both, I don’t know if you agree, but I think it’s a bit of both.When you go to another country and that might be more a little bit for the European set listening than it is for the Americans set listening because America is rather a melting pot. But again, in Europe you have an opportunity; for example, you go to a subway in China, you’re a foreigner, it means you do not look Chinese most of the time. And you see another foreigner and it doesn’t matter how it looks black, white, yellow, green, pink dotted. It doesn’t matter. You and him or she have a connection in a sense that, hey, we are both not from here, yet we both thought it’s a smart idea to do that, right? We thought it’s a smart idea to ride that subway in the country that you do not come from for whatever reason and that connects you. And this connection makes it so easy, I’ve never met so many people from so many different countries with so many different backgrounds then I did in China.
Because I had this confidence that whoever I talk to, at least we have one thing in common, we’re not from here. At least we have one we’re open to other cultures, statistically speaking. So that’s another really important thing. When you go abroad, of course, things are different, but there is going to be a local community that you should certainly engage with. But there’s also an expat community that you will be maybe surprised, maybe not surprised has things in common with you. And sometimes it’s easier to meet new friends in another country than it is to meet your friends in your own country. Because if I need another German, we might have nothing in common other than the passport, but when you need another person in a foreign country, you have at least 2, 3 things in common. So I think that’s another really important thing.
David McNeill: This is a great point and I 100% agree and maybe some folks listening would think, well, I want to get that local experience. I just want to hang out with the locals; I don’t care about the rest of the foreigners, that’s why I left my home country, so on and so forth. I’ve had those thoughts before in the past too; I know plenty of people who have had them. And I can also say that I’ve noticed that even from my first experience, studying abroad where, I mean, that’s a different situation indeed from living somewhere for a very long time and being in the working environment. But, just purely, like of course you try to make those local connections, but you might just be on very different wavelengths. And obviously have different goals with how you want to spend your time, especially if you’re somewhere for just a semester, but those connections like you said, it’s in a way so easy to make because you already have so much in common.
And yeah, I didn’t define these groups are very welcoming as well, they’re, you know, just safe spots for new and old foreigners to go and hang out, make connections, help each other out. And really show the new folks, the ropes and that helps when you’re first there and then people get in this habit of giving back because they were accepted the first time. And I just saw that happened so many times in my career and moving to so many countries. So I think it’s great that you brought that up because I think it’s easy to forget that and you might be concerned, how am I going to make any friends there. But in most cities that have at least some form of an expat community, it doesn’t have to be that big. There’s going to be the expat bars, the meet-up group, or the sports and sporting events like you mentioned to be able to make those initial connections.
Patrik Wilkens: I mean, honestly, that’s, and asked for I know, but when in Portugal of course the first, you know step either a football or be in an organization like the one that you were having. Well, the expert empire is for me, it’s an absolute no brainer, my friends, my family, my kids, once they are old enough, you know, I would always tell them exactly the same thing. You know, look for an expert organization and then join a football club or whatever sports club you like whenever you were in a foreign country. And it will be so much easier afterward,
David McNeill: Yeah, a hundred percent, so I guess, just to try to understand a little bit of the most recent part of your story as we wrap up here. It’d be great to understand where things went for you once you were in Germany and ultimately a couple of years later. 5, 6 years later, I think you mentioned then you moved to the Netherlands. So I’d love just to hear about that process and also how you decided to go back into that foreign environment from your quote-unquote safe home country, where it might be very clearly within your comfort zone.
Patrik Wilkens: Yes, they’re a very good questions; of course, it’s a personal answer. On the one hand, my father is not with us anymore, so there was one less reason my mother loves to travel. So wherever I go, she usually comes, so that’s perfect, it’s an even great excuse for most of us, that’s one reason. But also gaming is a beautiful industry, I do like it entertainment, working with customers directly, right, adding value to somebody’s life, and if it is just having more fun or, you know, having more meaningful time using the products that we’re developing. So, again, it doesn’t have to be games, but you know, games are one of the channels that enable me to do that. The higher you go, the fewer opportunities you have in any given city right and of course at one point also in any given country. So yes, if you are in a more traditional industry that has more people employed, overall gaming is really catching up a lot now. I read an article in the UK, for example, it’s one of the top employers now, and I think it was 140,000 people being employed. I think the US it’s going to be a significant more than that.
David McNeill: Wow.
Patrik Wilkens: So again, but still gaming is not, you know, it’s not traditional; I think if you’re an accountant in Germany, you know, you would, yeah… There’s probably always going to be a job for you, right, if you’re working in a bank, if you work in a car dealership, it doesn’t really matter. You know, there’ll probably be plenty of jobs, even in your own city that you don’t have to leave. Although when you change cities; on another sentence, once you agree to stay in Hamburg, once you agree to stay in Chicago, once you agree to stay in Beijing, you’ve made the decision. Priority 1 is the city; priority 2 is whatever, job. Fine, doesn’t matter that you’re not successful on the contrary, you’re probably going to be very successful. If you say the job is my number 1 priority in a way, right? And I am open enough to really not make it matter that much where I am because I always love the country that I’m in or the people that I’m with. Then you have more opportunities, and for me, that’s the case. So for me, at one point, you know, looking for the same job in Germany, there might be 5 or 6 jobs that would bring me to the next level. And those jobs at the moment are occupied by really smart and capable people.
So unless they decide to go elsewhere, you know, it’s going to be difficult for me to find a place there.And luckily I don’t have to wait for them to leave because the world is an awesome and big place. And in many countries, the Netherlands, for example, is a very welcoming place, for me, it was a no-brainer in a way to say, well, yeah if I leave Hamburg to join Amsterdam. And eventually, I might leave Amsterdam and go elsewhere. Because I have yet to encounter a country and a culture and people that are not awesome, that are not welcoming, that do not add value to my life that does not have value to my family’s life. So yeah, I’ve never had that experience that I went to a country and it didn’t have a great time that gives me the confidence to move regularly.
David McNeill: That makes sense, and I have the same mentality, especially as it relates to job versus location. And I think many people look at my background with such a deep interest in Japan and think, why did you only stay 2 years in Japan? It’s a great question; it still surprises me somewhat to this day, but I decided, in the end, to go more for a career rather than any one location. And recognizing the same as you, that there are a lot of wonderful places out there that are very welcoming and have great job opportunities. And I didn’t want to be held to only what was in front of me there in Japan and in Tokyo. So I completely agree, a hundred percent with what you’re saying and the sentiment that brought you to go to the Netherlands,
Patrik Wilkens: Which by the way, is a great example of exactly what you and I discussed like 10 minutes ago, right? You and I totally different backgrounds, totally different upbringing, different companies, different cultures, everything is different. But this we, for example, I agree 100%, right. We have the same mindset without having, I mean, how often you and I talked right in the past, like 3, 4 times. But again, we do agree on this one and we understand each other because we have the same experience. It doesn’t matter that you have been to Japan and I in China doesn’t matter that you’re in Portugal now and I’m in Amsterdam, because the experience is the same. And I think this is also what brings people forward in life that this experience is universally usable, doesn’t matter the country.
David McNeill: Yes. Yes. And that stays with you and you can leverage it on the spots. How it was moving to a new country for the second time, was it any different? And obviously, you’re in a different life situation, a professional situation. So were there any things that stood out to you that made it easier or harder the second time around?
Patrik Wilkens: Yeah, I think for me already having established that I am more adept at doing those moves. It was less the country that changed things than the status of having kids for example. So once you have a kid, in our case, we even have 2 kids. Vicki is actually born in the Netherlands 6 months ago, on the day actually; today on the day, 6 months ago. Thinking that much that of course changes things for me rather than changing the country, once you change the country, things are relatively similar, right? First, you check how is the work situation there, right? How is the weather, how is the tech situation? How has employment situation, right? What do I like about this country, what do I don’t like about this country? So those things have been the same, every time I make a decision. But what changed of course is, yeah, you have a wife, then you have 1 kid, then you have 2 kids. So it becomes important, you know, do I want to move again? It is an advantage for the family to actually do the move. You do not have to consider yourself anymore.So that’s, by the way, why the younger you are and listening to this one, if you think you have a hard time making the decision, yes, I’m sure you feel this way, and I felt the same way.You know, when I was in China every time, oh, it’s so hard to make a decision.
And then when we decided, you know, with a wife together to go to Germany, oh, it still has to make the decision, have 1 kid have 2 kids, right. Then it becomes even harder to make a decision, but that’s the personal opinion because things are more at stake. So the younger you are taking risks, honestly, you can always recover. You know, if you go to a country and it’s not a nice country, you know what you leave after a year, it is fine.You know, you will be able to contemplate it. Even if you stay there for 2 years and you don’t have the best experience, go to another country, have an even better experience. You know, things become a bit more difficult, the older you get. And I think that’s the main difference for me that the family situation changes. So your decision parameter change and you become a bit more cautious about the environment that you’re moving into because that’s one thing for the older people that listening too, for the married people. It’s nice that you find a new job, so you’re covered, you have a sense you have meaning.
Patrik Wilkens: And that’s one thing that we did very well, actually as a family, I have to say, my wife is from China for the people that haven’t figured it out by now. And when I moved to Germany, we picked a location that was good, but it wasn’t perfect. And it wasn’t perfect because there were not enough expats around for my wife to meet, to have a thing in common. And that’s one big recommendation that I will do when you move with a family, consider your family, of course, and look for an environment that sustains them and that energizes them. And we’ve done that very well in the Netherlands, so to speak, Schipol to the Netherlands, it’s a very welcoming country, everybody speaks English here. There is a Chinese community that certainly helps, our son, for example, goes on Sundays to the Chinese school to stay in contact with their culture or with this part of the culture as well. Of course, because I think it’s so important, he is, for example, I think what you would call a third culture kid?
David McNeill: Right.
Patrik Wilkens: It’s a German father, Chinese mother, born in the Netherlands, I mean; it’s going to be a nightmare during the football world cup to pick a team to cheer for I guess, during the Olympics. But yeah, of course, have that in mind with every decision that you do and that’s of course at the forefront of our decision-making as well now as a family.
David McNeill: Well, that’s beautiful advice. So it’s really fantastic because it is applicable as you say, to both the younger people listening that are maybe just in school now or just recently getting out of school. And early in their careers that have that potential more flexibility to make a move and as well as some of the older folks like us that have more of a family situation to keep in mind. And I truly appreciate that advice and everything that you’ve told us over this conversation. And I’d just love to know if you have any other insights or pieces of advice that you’ve left on the cutting board that you either or otherwise like to share.
Patrik Wilkens: Going abroad is if you have the right mindset and the right attitude towards it, one of the best things that happened to me. And I would recommend it to everybody that has a similar disposition as me and I would certainly recommend it to my kids. I wouldn’t force them because I think again, it might not be for everybody, but the people that do it and the people that really immerse themselves. And that’s the next thing, for example, in China, they have this, you know, Shunyi was back in the day was like this expert village was more like a ghetto if you want to call it this. You probably could live 4 years in Shunyi without ever having to experience China. And I’m pretty sure that there’s a Shunyi in every city, but I’m not saying that that’s not an experience that people can have. I’m just saying it’s not an experience that I would want to have.
So when you are in a foreign country, of course, you know, interact with the expat community, interact with the local community. I don’t think there’s much point for anybody to go to a foreign country. And all you do 24/7 is to stick with the people that you already could have met in your own country. And then create those culturally non-adapting hang cliffs. I don’t have a problem with it, I just don’t think there’s a value or as much value as there would be if you would be immersing yourself in whatever culture that you encounter. And I think the world will be a better place if more people will be open to other cultures and more understanding towards other cultures, I think that’s really important. One more practical thing to the people that actually leave the university and go abroad; if you happen to have an opportunity to go abroad and to be in a situation where your boss is also an expat, maybe even from the same country as you are but again, doesn’t have to be at all, there’s sort of a connection.
That once again, this connection that I talk about there’s a certain connection. I do not know if I like to think this way, especially to the bosses that I had, but I don’t know if I would have been one out of 50 other people that they would have managed. And we all would have been the same, German-born in Hamburg, you know, red hair, you know, I don’t know if we would’ve ever had the opportunity to go for drinks or dinner together, but we did. Because I was 1 out of a hundred that has been; had a similar background, as they had, so leverage that opportunity and leverage that opportunity to meet people. I think the football club, for example, and the people that I met, CFO’s of German car companies; I would have never met them in a local football club in Germany. But I did everybody, that’s abroad has a deep need and deep interest and deep desire to connect to people. And that just makes it so much easier to meet people from all walks of life and this will enrich once again your own life. Yes, again, not as much as advice, it is a feeling that I want to get across that really sustains me to every country that I traveled to and then I believe makes life better.
David McNeill: Wonderful, I think that’s a great place to wrap up our conversation, I love it, great advice through and through. Where can our listeners find out more about you and what you’ve been up to these days?
Patrik Wilkens: Well, I’m a TikTok celebrity by now, I think I have 100 followers, I would get there eventually. No, but jokes aside, I share a bit of experience about games on LinkedIn. Patrick Wilkins on LinkedIn should be easy to find a bit harder to find on TikTok because my photo is sloppy. Its games, industry insights on TikTok, and yeah, reach out. I’m more than happy to have a conversation, if you have a question more than happy to try to answer it, but yeah, that’s where people would find me. And of course, gameindustrynetworking.com is a website that I’m entertaining. So if you’re in games or if you’re interested in games, reach out, check it out.
Outro
Thanks to Patrik for sharing his story with us. You can find the full transcript for this episode at expatempire.com.
Music on this episode was produced by Eli Hermit, please check him out on Bandcamp and Spotify.
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Originally published at https://expatempire.com on January 17, 2021.
