Five Countries in 12 Years with Kalie from ExpatsEverywhere | Expat Empire Podcast 25

Kalie

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Episode Description

In this episode of the Expat Empire Podcast, we will be hearing from Kalie from ExpatsEverywhere. Kalie met her husband Josh during university and they set off for a life of adventure starting in 2009. Since then, they have lived in Spain, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and Portugal. While they worked as English teachers for much of their careers, they are now producing great video content about living abroad for the ExpatsEverywhere YouTube channel.

In this episode, you will learn:

• What it’s like to live long-term in Europe, the Middle East, East Asia, and Southeast Asia
• The good and bad of teaching English to foreign students of all ages
• How to build an awesome YouTube channel with great travel and expat content

…and much more! You can follow Kalie on:

Expat Empire Updates

Eli Hermit produced the music for this episode, please check him out on Bandcamp at elihermit.bandcamp.com/.

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Learn more about Expat Empire and schedule your free consulting call to plan your move abroad at expatempire.com!

Episode Transcript

Intro

Welcome to the Expat Empire Podcast, the podcast where you can hear from expats around the world and learn how you can join them.

Hi everyone, thanks for joining us today for the 25th episode of the Expat Empire Podcast.

Before we jump into today’s interview, I want to give you a heads up about some new free resources we’ve recently released. The first is related to the FBAR filing. For those of you that don’t know, American citizens living outside the US have to fill out and submit the FBAR filing every year by April 15 or you could be on the hook for more than $10,000 in fines. This worksheet makes it a breeze to calculate the values to put into your FBAR filing, so grab our FBAR Calculation Worksheet to quickly get the numbers you need to submit your filing before the deadline in one month.

We have also just released our free International Job Search Tracking Worksheet. This worksheet will help you to keep up-to-date on the status of your job applications, see which contacts in your network you need to reach out to next, and view metrics on your overall job search process to better understand how it’s going.

You can find links to both of those free resources in our show notes.

I also want to take this opportunity to remind you that we’re offering a free 30-minute consulting call to anyone interested in moving abroad once the pandemic situation has settled. It’s never too soon to start planning for your next big life change! Whether you’re looking to make your first move abroad, transition into life as a digital nomad, or just want someone to talk to about your moving dreams, we’re ready to help you think about the next steps in your journey. Send us a message at expatempire.com and let us know what travels you’ve been daydreaming about!

With that said, today we will be hearing from Kalie from ExpatsEverywhere. Kalie met her husband Josh during university and they set off for a life of adventure starting in 2009. Since then, they have lived in Spain, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, and Portugal. While they worked as English teachers for much of their careers, they are now producing great video content about living abroad for the ExpatsEverywhere YouTube channel.

Without further ado, let’s start the conversation.

Conversation

David: Hi, Kalie. Thank you so much for joining the Expat Empire Podcast today.

Kalie: Thanks for having me.

David: Awesome. It’d be great to hear a bit about your background, where you’re originally from, where around the world you’ve lived so far; I know that’s a long list, and where you’re currently living right now.

Kalie: Sure. So, I’m originally from the United States, I grew up in Florida. In 2009, at the time I was dating my now-husband, we moved abroad to Spain. Spain was our first spot that we moved to. So, Josh and I actually met when I was in college in 2008 and he was already looking to go abroad. He had already graduated and I wanted to go abroad actually. I wanted to do a study abroad when I was in college, but I couldn’t find anyone to go with me and I did not want to go by myself, I wasn’t that kind of person. So, when he and I met, I thought, well, this is a good opportunity, but he was ready to go. And I said, just wait for me to graduate and I’ll go with you.

And so, he was a little skeptical because we had just met, but he waited and we went ahead and moved to Spain. That was the first spot in 2009. We were there for two years. And then in 2011, we went back to the United States, we got married in the summer of 2011 and then we went to South Korea. We were in South Korea for two years, after South Korea, we went to Saudi Arabia for a year, and then from there, we went to Singapore and we actually were in Singapore for four years, that was the longest place we’ve lived. And it’s kind of a funny theme, we realized we kept moving to places that started with S, and that wasn’t intended, it’s just kind of how it happened. But now we are currently in Portugal, so we broke that habit. We’ve been in Portugal since last year, October.

David: Okay. Amazing. That’s an incredible journey in quite a few countries and all over the map, not just in Europe, not just in Asia. So, super excited to dig into all of that, but first it would be good to know maybe where you think your interest in living abroad originally came from. Was there any certain trip, or experience, or story, or something that led you to think like to get abroad or even that first idea of the study abroad experience, which didn’t ultimately happen? But what kind of led you to that point?

Kalie: So, my family traveled a lot when I was young. My dad was a major league baseball scout, he used to play baseball even before I was born, but by the time I came around, he was into scouting and my dad’s from Cuba, so he was for a while, either like the Latin American scouting director for certain clubs or an international scouting director so a lot of what he did was international anyway. He traveled a lot for work, and I have two older brothers, and what we did is we kind of just ended up making it family trips. My dad would have to go somewhere for work and the whole family would go. And then sometimes if my dad was away working, we’d go somewhere with my mom.

So, it was kind of just, I think, ingrained in me because of my dad and my mom’s lifestyle, they traveled a lot too. I remember even when I was young, they would travel just the two of them, and then my grandparents would come to stay with us for a couple of weeks or we’d have a babysitter for a couple of weeks. So, for me, that type of travel both nationally and internationally was just normal to me.

When I got into college, I had already been to Europe before. I just wanted to explore more, but I’d always done it with my family. It had always been with someone and so that’s kind of where I think the idea of like doing it by myself. I was never that kind of person that did stuff by myself. My friends can tell you when it was time to eat lunch or whatever, I would always call someone and be like, hey, are you ready to go to the school cafeteria? I didn’t want to walk in by myself and try to find someone to sit with or anything like that. I didn’t like that. And I’m very social like that.

So, I thought it doesn’t sound very fun to travel and do stuff by yourself. I want to do it with someone, I think it’s because I had always been with my family when we traveled. I think travel for me, it was just kind of always there. It was just common for me. So, it didn’t seem like an odd thing to want to do it in college. And actually, my parents encouraged me to do the study abroad, they think they were a little worried when I decided to move abroad after college because they wanted me to continue schooling, but I was burnt out from school. I didn’t really want to go into graduate school just yet, so I think they were a little worried about that, but at the end of the day, it didn’t surprise them that I wanted to live abroad.

David: Yes, that’s great. It’s a good environment to grow up in and to develop your interest in travel and living abroad. So, did you have Europe specifically in your mind from the get-go, or were you pretty open as far as where that first destination would be?

Kalie: It was definitely Europe for me when I was thinking about doing the study abroad, I was interested in Europe, and then when Josh and I met, he was also interested in Europe. So, for me, it had always been the place that I was going to go to first, I hadn’t actually really considered anywhere else maybe because Europe was a little familiar already for me, by the most I had traveled there the most as a kid. I think that was probably the most familiar and that was a little comforting to me, so I hadn’t actually considered any other place besides Europe.

David: So then, when you think about Europe, there’s obviously so many countries let alone, so many cities. How did you both get your first start into making your move and deciding on where to move to within Europe?

Kalie: Yes, that’s a good question because initially for me, I was like, “Let’s just go to Europe”. Obviously, even though it’s big, I was just ready for any place really in Europe. So, what I did is I had been like a nanny, and a babysitter, and stuff for many years and so I was looking into becoming an au pair. Josh, at the time, was looking into the different study abroad programs, study and then teaching abroad. I thought teaching sounded awful, that was something that I did not want to do, but I really liked taking care of kids, so being an au pair or a nanny is really common. And at the time, Josh and I were just dating so it didn’t really matter; I could live with the family that I was working for.

And so, I just got on a website, created an account, and started connecting with different families for being an au pair. And at that time, Josh was looking at doing an ESL program. I think it was in Greece actually. And I was looking kind of in that vicinity, but the funny thing was I ended up finding a job in Switzerland and Josh and I, when we met, we actually started off doing the long-distance thing because I was still in college and where he lived was about three hours away from me. And we connected through soccer, both of us played soccer at university and that’s kind of how we met, but we didn’t live in the same city. So, for us, it didn’t seem like a huge deal, if he was going to go to Greece and I was going to go to Switzerland, close enough, right?

David: Europe.

Kalie: Yes, Europe. I mean, we were just kind of, okay, we’ll make it work if it’s meant to work kind of thing. He had a friend who was interested in the program as well, so they were going to go to that program, to Greece and I was going to go to Switzerland and we were just going to see what happened. But in the meantime, when we were planning everything, the friend kind of got cold feet and decided not to go. So, at that time, Josh started looking at this other program in Barcelona because he actually would have preferred Spain anyway because it’s Spanish and I’m learning Spanish and he had a good understanding of Spanish and why I have to work on that. So, then I was like, okay, so you’ll be in Spain, I’ll be in Switzerland. And then what ended up happening is a family that I was committed to everything was working out, the woman ended up losing her job and they decided, well, instead of getting an au pair, I’m just going to stay home with the kids.

So, then they said, “Well, we don’t need an au pair anymore”. Then I was back to square one looking for jobs. And soon after that, I connected with a family in Madrid, and so Josh and I were like, well, that’s cool, well, at least we’ll be in the same country”. He’ll be in Barcelona; I’ll be in Madrid, so let’s do that. And I really liked the family that I connected with. And I was explaining that the guy I’m dating is going to go to Barcelona and she’s like, no, no, no, that’s way too far, he should come to my hood. And I was like, “Well, I mean, I guess if we can find something” and she ended up kind of helping, like researching places at different schools that he was kind of looking at and helping out there and it all worked out that he ended up doing a master’s program in multicultural and bilingual education in Madrid where he was getting his masters. He already had a master’s in business, but he was getting his master’s in education and then also teaching in a school, which is what he wanted to do. And then I would be an au pair with a family. So, it ended up working out that we both ended up in Madrid.

David: Yes, it’s funny how things work, looking back at it. I mean, are you kind of struck by how fortuitous and lucky, if you want to call it luck, everything kind of worked out, or maybe you’d call it fate, but it seems so perfect in a way that you had this idea of both going into Europe and then it was going to be again, long-distance and suddenly it’s in the same city. So, it sounds really like it worked out really well.

Kalie: Yes, I think you can see that it was orchestrated that we were meant to be together because of the time when we were dating and doing the long-distance thing, it was all still kind of casual and we enjoyed being together but weren’t sure if it was going to work and then us ending up in the same city kind of made it seem like we’re meant to be together.

David: How was it to try to plan and organize and just make it work with the move abroad to a very different country, very different culture and language with somebody that you were just dating at the time, as opposed to, I guess, married or in a more definitely committed situation? I can imagine that maybe there was a lot going through your mind or maybe actually it was very casual and normal and it didn’t faze you at all, so I’d like to hear your thoughts on that.

Kalie: It really showed us that we, again, are meant to be together because I think how we did it, it’s kind of a make-or-break situation because we put ourselves in a lot of stressful situations, and so it kind of tested like how we were as a couple and how we work with each other, and if we want it to be like that the rest of our lives, I guess. So, it was casual. I think at the time Josh was a little more like, “I don’t know if this is going to work beforehand”. Then I said, “If it doesn’t work, let’s just go ahead and travel as friends, and then we’ll just end up in our places and Madrid and that’ll be that”. And I said that but I really liked him, so I was like, I’m determined to make this work. It was like, okay, let’s just go ahead and plan.

So, we planned as if, even if we weren’t dating, we would still travel as friends and I’m a planner, so organizing was pretty easy for me, just kind of doing stuff and Joshua’s pretty go with the flow, so, “Okay, what would you like to do in this city?” And we did the typical crazy in and out of cities, like every few days, lots of like traveling and we had all of our stuff. That was another thing that was kind of funny. So, we started in Ireland where Josh had a friend and we had a big, bulky suitcases and everything. And by the time we made it just to England and then London, my suitcase broke,the handle broke and we had to buy this strap for it, and it was just a disaster, like trying to roll it around. And then, eventually, when we got to Germany where we had another friend, he’s like, “Let me help you, like mail this and send it on to Madrid, to the family that I’ll be living with so you don’t have to carry it around the rest of the places that we go”. So, all of our stuff made it really difficult. And this is before Smartphone’s actually.

So you can’t just get on and kind of figure out, look, I’m staying at this hotel, which direction do I go? So, we have like one of those old school GPS, like the Garmin’sthat we use to have in our car. Oh my gosh. So, that’s what we have. We didn’t have much money either, so we weren’t taking taxis or anything. We would always get on public transportation and we’d researched beforehand what Metro stop we need to get to and then we’re like, we’ll just use the Garmin to find exactly where the hotel is. So, we’d come out of the Metro stop and the Garmin wouldn’t know where we were and we would just start walking one direction, and inevitably it was always the wrong direction by the time it figured out where we were.

And then we would eventually get there and we would always be a sweaty mess, we had gotten in an argument, I’m sure about something, but then we’d get to the hotel room and like, “Okay, we’re here. Oops. Sorry”. “Okay”. And so, it kind of became this expectation as we rolled into each new city that we were going to get into a fight, but then we were going to be okay after we found the hotel and could unload this stuff just because of the stressful situation and having all of our stuff. So, in a way, it’s like we knew we were going to get mad at each other, but it was going to be okay. And again, I think it was a really good test. That’s how to test if you’re meant to be with someone, is to travel with them and see how it works out. At the end of that trip, I think it was pretty evident that we worked well together; we complemented each other in different ways.

David: And so, that whole trip was driving then to Madrid. I guess you’d already had everything planned that you were going to be there. You had your job. He had his study program.

Kalie: Yes. We had left about three weeks early so we could travel and then end up in Madrid.

David: Okay, nice. So, when you were first arriving there, then in Madrid, were there any things that really stuck out to you that surprised you culturally or just in terms of getting yourself set up there and making everything work? Because I know that those first few months can usually be tough, especially the first time.

Kalie: Yes. I think it helped that I was living with a Spanish family and the woman spoke English so that was really helpful. Because initially, we booked a little hostel for Josh,he had set up a temporary room, but we weren’t sure what day he’d be able to move in, so we’d booked a hostel. And when we got there, we came in on train because we came from Barcelona and the family that I lived with picked us up and we were explaining, “Here’s where he booked his hostel” and she was like, “No, no, no, that’s too far from where we live”. So, she helped cancel that one and booked one that was just right down the road from where they were, so that was obviously very helpful having that connection. And then I got a little cell phone with them and stuff, but getting Josh set up that was pretty much from ground zero, so just trying to navigate the bus system, the Metro, getting a phone, those things.

I think the hardest thing with Spain and it might be a little better now because obviously, this was back in 2009, I remember trying to get him a cell phone was the hardest thing because every time we went, it was like they were closed for siesta and we couldn’t engage like we’d go at different times and they always seem to be closed for their siesta. So, it took us days to finally get into this cell phone shop to get a phone because we couldn’t figure out their actual closing hours. I think culturally, that was a little difficult at first, trying to navigate when they opened or when they close because every place is kind of different, but sometime in the afternoon, they’re going to take that break and so they close. I think culturally, that was probably one of the hardest parts of getting set up, was just knowing when like shops and stuff were opened or closed.

David: Yes, absolutely. And in my trips there as well, not necessarily to Madrid though, I’ve been there many years ago, but just in Spain, it was so funny.Now, of course, you have Google maps and smartphones and everything, which is different from when you moved there. But just looking and seeing that it’s open from, I don’t know, 10:00 AM till 8:00 PM or whatever the time is. So, you just stroll up there and then it just keeps being closed. And you realize that you can’t really trust these hours and Google maps and fair enough, it’s a cultural element, I couldn’t figure out from the short trips that I took there exactly when I was supposed to go when it was going to be open when it was going to be closed. So, I can imagine the difficulties.

Kalie: Yes, it’s pretty funny. I mean, it’s just so much easier now with smartphones. I mean back then when we traveled, even when we were in Madrid and we’d go to a new place, I would look it up online. I would use MapQuest. If you remember MapQuest, I looked it up online, and then I would print out the map so we would have an idea of where to go. It’s just so much easier now, but yes, culturally things are a little different there with the opening hours for sure.

David: And was Josh able to improve on his Spanish like he wanted to, or was that more difficult to make happen than he expected? And also, what was your experience with the language if you had much?

Kalie: Yes. So, obviously, in the United States, we learn a second language in school, but it’s not, I don’t know how you would say. It’s not a joke. I would say it probably depends on how interested you are, but it’s one of those classes you have to take, but it’s quite easy to pass when you learn beginner Spanish. So, we’ve both done that. Josh had a lot of Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese friends, so he was really interested in languages and he’s much better at learning the language. My dad’s Cuban obviously, but we did not really grow up speaking Spanish in the house, unfortunately, just kind of a little bit here and there. So, when we moved to Spain, we had an idea of Latin American Spanish, but when you get to Spain, you find that it’s very different. The Spanish there is very different.In Madrid, they aren’t as helpful, I would say, as other cities when trying to learn, so that would be difficult if you’d have to ask them to slow down and please repeat themselves.

And a lot of times they would just say the exact same speed and you’re kind of like, “Please work with me, I’m obviously not a Spanish speaker”. So, that was always, I guess, stressful for me and Josh picked up on it much faster, but he’s really good with languages. I find that I struggle with it. I have a harder time, but I was kind of forced in a way to learn because, at that time in Madrid, no one spoke English. So, if we were getting around, I at least needed to know when I was getting on a bus if I need to ask something or I need to know that stuff.So, I was forced to learn that. But when you travel abroad and move abroad, you also tend to find people who speak your language,so we ended up making a lot of friends with Americans, or Canadians, or Brits. And so, then that always kind of stunts it.

But I did find that we would end up having a mix and there’d be like some from South America and some from Mexico and they always spoke English, but they were easier to practice with like when we would go out. So, it would be like, “Okay, let’s try to speak Spanish tonight and practice that”. And when I drank, which is very common culturally in Spain to go out, I always found that I was a little more willing to try to speak and mess up with my Spanish, so that was always good, but it was always helpful having other expats there practicing with them was a little easier than practicing with the Madrileños I found. Yeah, but it went well though, speaking and learning. And now that I’m in Portugal, I realized I remember a lot more than I thought I would just because of the similarities.

David: its funny how it comes back, right?

Kalie: Yes.

David: So, it sounds like, I believe you lived in Spain for two years, in Madrid. So, how did that come to a close and how did you both decide what to do next?

Kalie: So, we had been there for about a year and a half and we were thinking maybe it was time to try something different and we had never been to Asia,didn’t really know much about Asia. We were engaged at the time and we were planning on getting married,so it was like, let’s go back to the States, get married there, and then move on to somewhere else. Just the idea to move was just to try something different. So, Josh was the one who really thought Asia would be a good place to go. I remember in high school I had a friend who went to Japan and I thought, well, that’s the coolest thing because Japan is so far away and it just seems so different and so foreign. And that’s something that I hadn’t done as a child,so Japan was pretty intriguing. We decided to look into Asia a little bit. Initially, we looked into Japan, South Korea, and Malaysia; and Josh has some teaching experience now and he had that master’s, which was helpful for him for finding a job.

I didn’t have any teaching experience and we found that really being an au pair only works out best in Europe. So, it was time to, if we were going to continue doing this, I needed to start getting into teaching. So, before we left Spain, I actually went through and did my TEFL and some of those smaller programs at the time, which were helpful. Now, it’s a little more competitive, but I got some credentials and I was looking around, we found that South Korea was the easiest to get into for me with no experience. Malaysia, actually, you needed a lot of experience to get a good job and Japan was okay, it was a little harder, but they were at the time, having some problems with the tsunami there and things were going on there,so we thought maybe South Korea would be better. So, that’s kind of how we landed in South Korea, just worked out with my job experience and what was going on at the time.

David: Yes, absolutely. You mentioned at the beginning of our interview that you weren’t as interested in the idea of teaching English. And so, I’m curious how you came around on that. I guess it sounds like maybe it was out of necessity kind of more than a pure passion, but just curious about your thoughts on how you kind of came around on it and how you think about it now.

Kalie: Yes, it was definitely a necessity. When I was in college, I had a lot of education friends that were getting their education degrees and I thought, I had to tell them too, I thought teaching sounds awful. It sounded like the worst thing in the world to me. Why would you want to do that? It just did not sound interesting. And then obviously, like I said, when we went to Madrid, I was like, “I’m not teaching andthat sounds awful”. But I guess seeing Josh do it and kind of how it looked, it was a different dynamic doing it abroad compared to being a teacher in the States. So, kind of seeing how he was doing it and I had started doing some private lessons, so I was getting into it a little bit. It didn’t seem so bad, but a lot of it was out of necessity.We decided this is something that we want to do probably long-termin teaching, especially right now, teaching English is the best way to go, at least to start. So yes, it really was out of necessity. And so, I started teaching English and we initially were working for the public school system in South Korea, and we eventually got to Singapore, where we were working for an international school. So, kind of just working our way up through that and I ended up enjoying it and I really enjoyed the most being at an international school because of the setup. And it was an American international school,so it was run very similar to the curriculum and everything that we have in the States and the flexibility and freedom I had at the international school compared to when we are in Saudi, we were at a university actually. And then in Korea, Korea is kind of tough because you’re like a co-teacher, so you have a Korean teacher and then you’re like the assistant, I guess.And unfortunately, they don’t use you to the best they could.

A lot of times they’re like, okay, create a game in English. When it’s your turn to teach, you play the game. So, you kind of become like the fun English teacher, and when it’s your turn to be in that class, the kids are excited because they know they get to play a game. So, it’s not as serious as if you’re actually trying to learn English.

But when you get into the international school system, whether you’re teaching English or at that point, Josh had moved over to PE, it’s actual school, legit teaching. And so, I did enjoy that part more of it, but yes, at the beginning it was really just out of necessity knowing that we want to do this long-term, so I’m just going to have to get into it and see how it goes.

David: Yes, definitely. And it’s cool that your opinion on it changed and also recognizing that yes, there’s a lot of choices to make, whether you pursue a certain career or it’s the goal to just see as many countries as you can, you have to focus on your priorities and figure out what makes the most sense for you to be able to achieve your goals. So, I think that’s great. And for South Korea, now I hear about it and, of course, I visited a few times and I have some good friends there, but it really seems to be this place that’s gaining so much momentum and a lot of people want to go there for a lot of the cultural exports and the K-pop and the food and everything else. And I’m curious what it was like when you both moved there, did it have that feel to it or did it feel still a bit kind of off the map, especially compared to maybe a place like Japan, for example, that seems like a lot of people just have that idea about Japan, like you did?

Kalie: I think it was probably a bit more off the map. A lot of people had obviously known about South Korea, especially because of the war, so really, if we had met anyone, it tended to be older men who had been in the military, who had been to Korea. So, they were like, “Oh yes, Korea”. But obviously, the Korea that they were seeing was very different than the one that we were seeing. So, it would be funny when we go back to visit and we would meet someone and they would talk about they were there for the war and we’d be like, “No, like it’s very different now, very developed”. And they did develop pretty quickly after that, but it was still kind of off the map. I would say that things like K-pop weren’t as popular or well-known as they are now, they were getting there, but Japan was definitely more well-known when people had just kind of known about South Korea because of the war, or maybe they had known someone who was teaching English because, at that time, Korea was kind of good or bad letting anyone in who had a passport from an English-speaking country to go in and teach. They were really trying to work on their English and at that point, they had really low standards. So, you can kind of meet someone who, “Oh, I have a friend who did that” or “My nephew did that” or something like that. People had known about it a little bit like that and then, obviously, North Korea was in the news off and on, so people were always asking about that, but it’s definitely not. I think nowadays it’s more traveled than it was back then and a bit more well-known for people who are interested in international things and in Asia.

David: Yes. Given that there was such an interest in developing the local English ability of the students and that brought you in a lot of other teachers there at the time. And based on my own experience, traveling there a few years ago, I didn’t get a sense that there was a high level of English proficiency to put it kind of bluntly. So, I’m curious how it was to get set up there, to live your life, especially coming from, I guess you said at the same time, Madrid also didn’t have a strong English-speaking population, but very different life, very different cultures. So, we’d just love your thoughts on how it was to adjust to that.

Kalie: Sure. So, Korea is very homogenous, you’ll get that. They have their own culture and it’s a very different culture, even going to Spain, obviously, there’s cultural differences, but it’s still the West, so the Asian East culture is very different and then Korea has their own very strong culture. So, it was difficult to get set up, but in another way, it was easy in a sense that obviously, when someone from Korea would look at you, they would know that you’re not Korean. They would work with you a little bit, hand motions or if you’re buying something, they would type it on a calculator and show you the price so you could see the numbers. Obviously, since you didn’t look like them, they were a little more helpful in that sense compared to like in Madrid. That was okay, but still, there was a huge language barrier and obviously, the letters and everything are very different.

That’s a whole new starting over learning from the very beginning and actually kind of funny enough, we had friends who were Asian-American and some of them would be like Korean-American and they decided to go over and teach. So, they would look Korean, but full-on American maybe didn’t even know how to speak any Korean so they’re trying to learn and fumbling through it. And actually, they would have a harder time speaking with a Korean than I would because the Korean would be like, “How do you not know how to speak this language?” That was always a little harder for them compared to if you didn’t have any roots in Asian culture, but also too, unfortunately, they pump a lot of learning English, but they are doing it the wrong way, which is probably why even a couple of years ago when you went there, they’re still not very advanced in English because all the public schools will have an English teacher. But like I said, it’s almost a bit of a joke in a way, they get to play the game and everything and then the kids would really learn English when they would go to Academy afterwards.

And that’s where it was rigorous type learning, but it’s very book-type learning, not every day learning, they’re learning to take the tests in a sentence, so it’s harder for them to actually get out and communicate. And they’re very shy as well, especially the girls trying to practice, so that kind of makes it hard for them to be more proficient, especially with communicating in English. And then the older generation, they’re not exposed to it really at all, so you won’t find any English for the older generation. It’s mainly the younger generations that are now learning it a lot more and it really depends on how much they practice themselves. So, we actually met a friend on a bus. Josh met him. Josh was a practicing Korean, I think, on the bus and then this guy noticed, a young guy, at the time he was 19 or 20 and he had great English, which was not very common. So, when we ended up hanging out with him, becoming friends, we asked him how he had learned such good English and his pronunciation was very good. He didn’t have much of an accent because he had never been out of Korea.

And he said what he would do is he would put on different people to listen to. He would watch Friends, for example, the TV show Friends, and he would just listen and then repeat, listen and repeat. And so, he would kind of talk long or different speeches from Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, different speeches he would just listen to and then just say it over, and over, and over. And he taught himself more that way than you actually would have learned at school, but he was very motivated to do so, and so his English was really good because of that. I think that a lot of it is if their English is good, then it’s a lot more self-motivation to practice and really want to know the language and communicate with people.

David: And how was it to build your friend group there? Did you also find that you were connecting with a lot of other foreigners? I’m not sure how many were over there, how you were making those connections, but did you find a lot of Korean friends, locals that you could communicate with like that? Or how did it all work for you?

Kalie: It ended up being quite a mix. There are a lot of foreigners, a lot of expats over there, so you, again, just kind of gravitate to those people when you see them at a restaurant or a bar. We were in Busan in the South, along the beach, you can definitely tell the Koreans from the Westerners because the Koreans are out on the beach fully covered in pants, and long sleeves, and big hats and then you’ve got the Westerners who, guys had their shirts off, girls are in bikinis. We want the sun, they don’t. So, it’s quite easy to find the Westerners there.

You would just kind of get a mix again, just like in Spain, really anywhere you tend to gravitate to people who speak your language and have the same cultural background as you, it just is a little easier, but then you also want to integrate as well. A lot of that does come down to language as well, especially in Korea, because if you don’t know too much Korean and they don’t know too much English, then you can only go so far.

But finding the Koreans who were interested in being friends with Westerners and who had a good level of English, then you could end up hanging out with them a bit more. And again, you would just befriend them anywhere, as long as you’re outgoing and interested in meeting new people, then it’s easy to do that, whether that’s through meet-ups or different groups. We went to a church that had a good mix of Koreans and expats and it was in English, so we met a good amount of Koreans there, which is fun. So yes, you just have to be kind of willing to open up and try to meet people and hope that the language doesn’t become too much of a barrier.

David: Yes, absolutely. So, how did you both decide that it was time to move on and especially to a place like Saudi Arabia?

Kalie: After being in Korea for, I guess a little over a year, I was getting itchy. I’m one of those people that when I was a kid and a teenager, I would change the furniture in my room every couple of months because I need to change, something different. I think that’s kind of played out in where we moved to and how long we stayed in places as well. Because Korea is so homogenous, it was funny. Again, being in Busan, it’s the second-largest city in Korea, Seoul is huge, there are loads of foreigners, expats in the whole country and I would see expats every day.

But even being in Busan, every day you’d get stared at, a lot of us from the older generation. And it wasn’t just like this little coy type staring, trying not to be obvious, it was like, you’d be walking and they would stop their walking, and they would just track you and follow you the whole way, watching you. I was just so tired of that. And some people think it’s funny, like, “Oh, it’s like, I’m a rock star celebrity” but I took it as like, why are you looking at me?

David: Right, it loses its appeal pretty quickly.

Kalie: Yes, even just like being on the beach, people would come up to you and they would want to take a picture with you. It’s just like I would just want to live here. I want to feel like I live here. Not that I’m some sort of spectacle or I’m on vacation. Maybe if you’re traveling, it’s kind of funny, it’s not so bad because it’s a short-term thing, but yes, like you said it kind of loses its appeal when you’re trying to live your life. So, I was kind of getting tired of that. Josh was fine with trying something different. We like to move to different places and base ourselves in different areas so that we can travel that region. And at that point, we had done a lot of traveling and so it was like, okay, let’s try something different. And Josh really wanted to go to the Middle East, I had never even considered it, hadn’t thought about it, but he really wanted to try out the Middle East. And I think that time they were in the media and it was always quite negative and you didn’t really know what to believe. So, I think he was like, “I want to go there and I want to see it for myself. I want to meet people for myself and come up with my own conclusions, not what I’m being told by the media”. He was very much, “So, let’s try the Middle East”. I was like, “Okay, let’s try the Middle East. I’m open to Dubai, Abu Dhabi, some of the more modern, I guess, places or ones that seem a little more liberal”. And I was like, “I will go anywhere but Saudi Arabia”. And of course, that’s where we ended up.

David: Of course. I guess the universe has a way of doing.

Kalie: Right. And I think for me, Saudi Arabia seemed the most closed-off, the most conservative, you just didn’t know much about it. It didn’t seem like women had many rights and I just was not interested in going to a place like that where I didn’t know if I was going to feel suppressed and I didn’t want to just walk into something like that. So, that’s why I was like, okay, not Saudi Arabia, but yes, that’s where we ended up. I mean, he wasn’t intentionally looking in Saudi Arabia, it kind of just ended up that way.

David: And how did you adjust to it and come to terms with the one place in the region that you weren’t so keen on is the one where you ended up? And ultimately, how was it compared to your expectations?

Kalie: So, at the time, we had jobs in Dubai is what ended up happening and we were going to be teaching there. We were going through the visa process and there were just a lot of red flags that came up, it’s like they didn’t know what they were doing. It’s like, “how are we supposed to get our visas if you’re not helping us with this paperwork? We don’t know, you should know this”. And so, Josh and I talked about, if there are all these problems with this, what’s it going to be like when we get there? How disorganized is it going to be? We ended up and it was before we had really signed the contracts and everything, so we said, “well, maybe this isn’t a good idea”.

So, at that point, we were kind of deep in with them and it was later in the game, in the spring looking for the next school year to find jobs. And at this point, we were already back in the States. We had left Korea; we were back in the States for a little bit because we thought we would be going back to the States for a little bit and then off to Dubai. We started looking for jobs and really all the ones that were available were in Saudi Arabia. So, at that point, it was like, well, we either go to Saudi Arabia or we try to find something else. But again, since it’s late, you’re probably not going to find a very good job and really anywhere because, at that point, it was like the jobs that are available are the ones that people don’t want or people thought they wanted and then they said no, this isn’t looking good.

So, that was a little worrisome, but we ended up finding a job that wasn’t one of those scenarios. It was at a university, they were done with the hiring process, but then the university wanted more teachers because they had seen a bump in student numbers, so they were going to create more classes. They were like, “We need more teachers”, we had been contacted just when that opened up. It actually ended up being a really good job, even though it was late. So, that’s kind of how we ended up in Saudi Arabia with those jobs. And as far as teaching goes, it is probably the easiest job I’ve ever had because the curriculum was just laid out for you. They had the books; they had the lesson plans. You didn’t even need the lesson plan, you could supplement if you wanted to, but you didn’t even have to, you could just go by exactly what they did and you only taught for four days and then every fifth day they took a test. So, there it’s Sunday.

So, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, you taught the chapter of the book, and then on Thursday, they would take a test on that book. So, you would just facilitate the test. And then you had off on Friday, Saturday that was your weekend. As far as teaching goes, it was a really, really easy job. Culturally, the Saudi people are really, really nice, they’re very interested in Western culture and Americans even more so, so learning about that was really nice. Obviously, it was a university, so you could communicate a little better because the kids are a little older as opposed to if they were seven- or eight-year-olds, and women teach women, men teach men there, so I obviously don’t have much experience with men because men don’t really talk to women there. I would guess this is coming from knowing the girls’ side, the 18, 19-year-old girls, but they were very nice and very interested in your culture and wanting to teach you their culture.

We were in a big city. We were in the Eastern province on a smaller area, so it was more conservative. Of course, anywhere you went, you covered up and you didn’t really walk anywhere, you had a driver. It was very different culturally because they don’t really go and hang out at places. Now, this is opening up a lot more now. When we were there, it was still like movie theaters weren’t a thing because you don’t go and hang out like that. The models were meant for families. It wasn’t like a hangout spot, it was like families would go there, but they did have everything. They had Starbucks, they had Nike, you could go shopping, but what’s interesting with the Starbucks, for example, is there are two different entrances and this is a common there. So, there’s a male entrance and then there’s a family entrance. If you’re a single guy, you have to go in through one entrance and it’s partitioned in the middle so you can only see half of the store or restaurant, so you have to be on that side.

If you’re a family, you can go in through the other side and they have booths that you can order. And then you go into the booth and there are these curtains that you close. You close the curtains so that the women if they want, can uncover their face, their hair, and they can be comfortable. The single men aren’t allowed on that side. So, if Josh and I were together, we could go in on the family side. If Josh is by himself, he would have to go in on the other side. And then the women always go in on the family side, whether you’re by yourself or not. So, that was something that was definitely interesting and different culturally, for guys, because you just don’t mingle. You don’t talk to people you don’t know anyway.

David: And did you have to carry some identification to say that you were a married couple legally? Or how did that work? Did you have any issues with those types of problems when you were living there?

Kalie: We never had any issues, but I did, just out of the recommendation from the organization that we worked for, I did always carry a copy of our marriage license just in case, but we never had any issues with it. And I don’t know anyone who ever had to actually show that, but it was recommended that we had it just in case. And I know that like when you book hotels and stuff, this is how it used to be, at least, in Saudi, you would have to provide your marriage license to show that you guys are married to book the room together. So, that was something that you would have to do.

David: Did you get to do a lot of the travel around the region that you wanted to during the time you were there?

Kalie: We did. Yes. It was really easy. And with our job, we had a lot of time off and then obviously make good money in Saudi, so that helped with traveling. We didn’t get to everywhere that we wanted to, but we did do a lot. We were able to go to the UAE, we went to Dubai and Abu Dhabi, we went to Oman, which we knew nothing about online, but we loved Oman. It was just beautiful and the people were really nice and they’ve got this turtle sanctuary there, it’s actually really popular. It’s, I think, one of the best in the world because apparently turtles, wherever they lay their eggs and they hatch instinctually, they go back to that spot to then lay eggs themselves. If you can get the little turtles to survive, then they’ll come back there, and it just kind of compounds on itself. So, there are a lot of turtles that go up to this beach to lay their eggs. You get to see that, which a cool experience, the little things like that you wouldn’t even know about unless you’re in the region. So, we did that, we did Qatar. Not while we were living there, we’ve been to Jordan and Israel and everything, but we did that at a later time, not when we were there. We never got to Kuwait though, so that was one thing. That’s a bit of a bummer. But we were able to travel the region easily, so that was good.

David: Yes. And there’s something to be said for leaving something still to do, but you don’t have to do it the first time, right?

Kalie: Right. Yes.

David: Right on.If I remember correctly, you stayed there just for one year, and then you moved on to Singapore. So, if you could just explain a bit about how that decision was made, of course, to leave, but also to go to Singapore next.

Kalie: Sure. So, we went into Saudi Arabia with an open mind, not knowing how long we would want to stay, but we had signed a year contract and at that time, Josh wanted to kind of meet the people. We had some financial goals that we wanted to meet, knowing that we would be able to save a lot while there, so we were going to kind of play that by ear as well. And then while we were there in the first few months actually, we ended up meeting those financial goals. We thought we could stay here longer because it’s pretty easy or we can base ourselves somewhere else, try something different. It was a little boring in a way you could travel a lot, but while you were in Saudi, there just wasn’t much to do. We lived on a compound, the compound had a pool and a soccer pitch and you could play games, but I think a year of that was good enough for us. People stayed longer. We have friends who were there before we got there and they’re still there. And it just kind of depends on what you want to do.

But we thought after probably six months into it, we’ll probably start looking for something else. And another thing too is we couldn’t bring our dogs so that was tough. The Middle East isn’t as super dog friendly as other places, so we ended up leaving our dog with my parents and we didn’t want to be away from him too long. And so, while we were in Saudi, we did a trip where we visited Malaysia, Singapore, and some of the Indonesian islands. And when we got to Singapore, we just loved it, the first night I was like, “let’s move here. We should live here”.And we actually started looking for jobs that first night in the hotel room.

David: That’s amazing.

Kalie: Yes. We just really, really liked it. And part of it was because we had been obviously in Saudi for a bit by then, and everything is kind of sandy and beige and when we got to Singapore, everything was so lush and green. And I just remember looking at the view like, “Oh, look at those pretty trees and the grass” something so silly as that, but you just don’t see grass in Saudi Arabia. So, there are places, but it’s just obviously a different region of the world. I was like, “This place is amazing”. So, when on that vacation, we just really liked Singapore and decided to start looking for jobs there. And that’s kind of how we decided to head over to Singapore as we had found a job there.

David: Nice. And what job was that?

Kalie: That was the one where we moved into the international school because, in Korea, we worked for the public school system there in Saudi Arabia. We were working at a university and then we moved to an international school in Singapore, an American international school. And I continued to teach English, ESL, so English is a second language. And Josh moved to PE, he had a lot of experience with coaching and sports. Actually, when we were in Korea, we went through a program to get our teaching licenses in the States because we knew as we continue to do this if we want to get better jobs, it’s better to be licensed as a teacher. So, there was an online program that we could do and since we were already teaching our practicum, our co-teachers in Korea could sign off for practicum. And then when we went back to the States, we just had to sit for our tests to get those licenses. So, we had both been licensed in ESL and all Josh had to do was just add to that license and take a PE, physical education test that he studied for to get that job in Singapore. So, I took the ESL job there and he took the PE job there in Singapore.

David: Nice. And how did Singapore meet or exceed or not meet your expectations? How was it compared to that trip that you had where you were so impressed and really wanting to move there?

Kalie: We loved it. It definitely met and exceeded expectations. Even the expectations were high, which probably isn’t the best thing. You probably don’t want to go into something with super high expectations like that because sometimes that can let you down, but no, we love Singapore and that’s probably why we stay there for four years, the longest we had been anywhere, and it wasn’t that we were tired of Singapore or wanted something different out of Singapore, out of the region and why we left. We just were changing our job opportunities and going more into Expats Everywhere and working digitally and really growing our personal business. It was too hard to really grow that while having full-time jobs, and so that was a decision that we made. But we can definitely see ourselves move back to Singapore, we really loved it. It’s a great country. The weather’s great obviously, it’s close to the equator, so it’s always hot, which I like, I’m from Florida, so I liked the type of weather.

It’s obviously hot and humid and you do get sweaty, but everyone’s sweats, so it’s not weird. The weather’s consistent, you know exactly what you’re going to get. It’s sunny, everything’s in English, that’s another thing that makes it easy too. They have four official languages and English is one of them. So, everyone speaks English, like the kids learn it in school, so much that’s in English. You might catch some of the older generation that doesn’t know much English, but enough to where it’s fine and its quiet and there’s so many expats there that it’s quite common to speak English. So, I think the thing about Singapore that set it aside from any other country we’ve lived in, is it felt like home. It didn’t feel like you were a constant foreigner, or you didn’t belong there, or you were just there for a short time. It’s a place that I think because of the language and because of so many expats and the culture, the different cultures there, it really feels like your home and that’s where you live. And that was kind of something that I explained was lacking in Korea. You always felt like a foreigner because people wanted to come up and take pictures with you or stare at you, but it’s not like that at all in Singapore. So, I think that’s one of the biggest perks about Singapore is it felt like home.

David: Is that how maybe it sort of satisfied that part of you that was always itching to find the next place? Do you feel like that sense of home was ultimately what kept you comfortable there for those four years, which indeed was the longest that you’d been abroad at that point in one location?

Kalie: Yes, probably. I think the great mix of it was that it felt like home, but it still was different than home. We don’t have any desire at this point to go back and live in the United States, even though that is quote unquote ‘home’, but maybe because it’s not exotic enough, even if we try different cities, still our country. So, I think that’s what makes Singapore a really good mix is that it does have that comfort of home, but it still has that adventurous, exotic difference of living in a different country.

David: Right. Absolutely. So, you mentioned a bit about Expats Everywhere, so I’d love to hear ultimately what it is, of course, and also how it developed and how you managed to change your careers to move toward a totally different direction.

Kalie: Sure. So, when we were in Saudi Arabia, just because there’s not much to do, everyone seems to kind of come up with a hobby or spend their time doing something. And we had talked about possibly in six months, like I said, going somewhere else. And when you’re looking for new jobs, it’s always that same old annoying I have to job hunt, I have to make sure my resume is updated, I had to fill in all this information because a lot of places you look for a job, they’re like, okay, submit your resume or your CV. But then they also want you to type it all in and fill out the exact same information on their website, which can be time-consuming. So, we started off with that process and Josh was pretty much like, “Gosh, I would pay someone to do this for me”. And then he was like, “Wait a second, if I would pay someone, maybe other people would pay someone, so maybe we should start doing this because we have been doing it so much”.

So, that’s kind of where the idea started initially with this consulting idea of helping people moving abroad, not just with the paperwork side, but like, if they’re ready to, what expectations would be. Actually, a lot of people are like, “I would love to move abroad”, but then when you start talking to them and you get into expectations and feelings, some people, yes, it’s for them; others, it’s not. And that actually came out a lot in our consulting sessions with people, really what expectations look like. So, we started off like that and we thought there’s so much in written form. There are so many blogs out there, but there’s really not much video. We would love to just get people on camera because when you watch someone on camera, you can decide if you relate with that person. So, this person is saying, “Oh, I lived in Taiwan”, for example. And you think, this person did it, I felt like I have this connection, they’re from Canada, I’m from Canada. I think if they did it, I can do it too. Or, I don’t relate at all with this person and they loved it maybe I wouldn’t like it.

So, you can just get so much more out of video than you can with reading, and obviously, it’s entertaining as well. You can just put the video on and be doing something else rather than sitting in front of your computer, going through a blog. So, we thought let’s put stuff in video form. And the compound we lived on, people had lived all over, so we had this great pool of expats, so we thought, let’s just start interviewing the different expats, asking them the common questions that people wonder. What’s healthcare like? How was the visa process? Did you need to know the language? Those common questions that people have when they’re exploring a new place. And so, we just started interviewing people. We laugh now, but when you go back and look at those videos, they’re so funny because we had no idea what we were doing. We literally would sit at our computer in front of the person, have the built-in camera facing them and just sit behind it and ask questions.

And they’re pretty funny, but we’ve evolved a lot from there, we’ve gotten a lot better for sure. And then the company has evolved too because, in 2019, we decided the consulting side is good, but we really like the media content creation. And we weren’t able to do both as well as we wanted to, so we really wanted to dig into one or the other and we liked the idea of talking to different expats. And then also, we, at that time, weren’t on the channel very much. We didn’t vlog or anything like that. And people were saying, “You need to get on there and vlog and talk about your lives” because we were still living abroad and people want to see what our lives look like as well. So, we thought we could add so much more to the interviews. We could show travel stuff because we were still traveling a lot. We could show our lives living abroad. We could show interviews of different people. We just had a lot more options if we really dug into the media side. So, we decided to not do the consulting anymore, but just get a lot of the content out there, which is obviously on YouTube — Expats Everywhere. So, we just really wanted to dig into that and get people videos and some fun stuff there.

David: So, as you evolved the business and change that, and of course, as you said, you couldn’t really focus on that as much as you wanted with a full-time teaching job. How did that lead to, I guess, leaving Singapore and now making it over here to Portugal?

Kalie: So, Singapore, obviously the cost of living is pretty high and the visa process, we obviously got our visa through teaching. So, we thought we’re both teaching, we’re both in this full time, it’s really hard. Like you said, to go into YouTube and the media content creation full-time, at least both of us. So, at that time, my mom’s company was looking for someone who could work digitally in compliance. And so, I talked to her about that and said, “hey, is that something that maybe I could do?” And then we decided I could do that and Josh would go into expats everywhere full-time.

So, the initial plan was for us to go back to the United States because I needed to meet with clients and kind of learn the ropes of the company. So, we were going to go back for a couple of months and I could do that. And then we would pursue looking at digital nomad visas, or freelance, any type of visa that we could get with what we were doing. We were looking into that stuff, actually funny, like Slovenia, we really love Ljubljana in Slovenia, and it started with an S so like, should we go there? They didn’t have as good a visa options and Portugal has a really good, decent visa. And we love Portugal. When we were living in Madrid, we traveled to Portugal a lot and we thought one day we would want to live here. So, Portugal was definitely high on that list, especially because we knew that the cost of living was doable with just really building up the digital stuff. And we really liked Porto, so we knew we could live there. The plan was just to being in the States short-term, work on that visa and then move over, but then I found out I was pregnant. Surprise.

It was something that we weren’t necessarily actively trying, but we weren’t preventing as well, but we’d been doing that for years. So, it was a big surprise for us actually at the timing of it, that I was pregnant. So, then it pushed things back a little bit when we thought, okay, we’ll go ahead and we’ll have the baby in the States and then we’ll move abroad. And she was born on January 1 st, 2020; she’s a new year’s baby. And the plan was after about a month to two months, when she got a little older, we could get her first round of vaccinations and we would move abroad. Well, then COVID hit. So, then we were stuck in the States for a while and that’s why we finally made it in October, but we were definitely in the States much longer than what we were hoping for, but it gave us a chance to build up, especially the vlogging side of things because we were going through the process of getting our visas for Portugal and we found out that there are a lot of Americans and a lot of people who are interested in that process.

So, we just vlogged a lot about that and it helped Expats Everywhere grow, a lot for the Portugal side of it, but we still want to keep it Expats Everywhere. So, we still continue to talk to expats around the world and their experiences and sharing what different countries are like as well, so not just Portugal. But right now, obviously, it can be Portugal heavy for the vlogging side because we’re here.

David: Yes, of course. So, just to wrap us up here, what does your plan look like for the next few years? Of course, you just got here a couple of months ago and to Portugal, so I imagine you’ll stay here for a bit, but do you feel like it’s a long-term spot for you or kind of what’s your thinking going into this experience?

Kalie: Yes, it can definitely be a long-term spot, we’re quite comfortable here, but then we also have this really big project through Expats Everywhere that we’ve been planning before COVID hit actually, that would take us traveling a lot, really just showing the world to people through YouTube and we’ve been planning on that. And then COVID hits. Obviously, popping in and out of countries is not something that can be done right now. So, we do want to still do that project, but we know that it’s probably going to be some time until that happens. And that’s actually why we started it. We have a Patreon page to just work on getting support financially for that project, just to get that really going because it’s a big one, but it’ll be a lot of fun and it’ll show a lot of really cool content, but we’ve got that on hold right now, waiting for countries to open because it wouldn’t work if quarantine is a thing, if you got to go into a country in quarantine for two weeks, it just wouldn’t work.

So, we’ve got that big project that we want to do, which we’ll see us traveling for quite a while and traveling with a baby, which a lot of people are interested in too. But until then, yes, we’re in Portugal and we really like it here and even if we do this project or when we do this project because we really want to do it, even if it takes some time. When we do it, we can definitely see ourselves coming back to Portugal. It’s an easy place to live. Again, we really like Porto, so yes, it’s a place that I think that we could stay, but it really depends. Like I said, with me, I get itchy, but maybe doing the project will help satisfy that itch for a little bit of moving around. And then another thing obviously to consider is now that we have a child, getting her into school and everything, obviously we’re teachers, so we could do some homeschooling, but I think that it’s good for kids to go to school, to get the social aspect. And for her to learn Portuguese would be great or just another language wherever we are. So, that would be something to consider when she’s a little older, if we would want to stay in a place a little longer, or at least not pop around every couple of years because that could be tough on a kid. Yes, so for right now, especially too with COVID and stuff, you can’t even travel and move around much anyway, not even within Portugal. So yes, you’re in Portugal for a bit, but yes, we’ll have that project, which will be good, and then probably end up back here and we’ll see from there, who knows.

David: Sounds amazing. Well, how can our listeners find out more about you and what you’re doing and of course, to subscribe to your channel as well?

Kalie: Yes. So, our biggest thing is our YouTube channel, which you can find us on Expats Everywhere and we also have a website, but a lot of that just filters into the different videos. We have some blogs and stuff on there, some information. You can email us at info@expatseverywhere.com or expatseverywhere@gmail.com. Either one will get to us. If you have questions, if you’re looking to move to Portugal, we help a lot of people with that. So, we have a lot of affiliations to help with the NIFs, and every location and the real estate.

I also have a lot of checklists. I’m a big list maker; I’m trying to stay organized. So, a lot of people ask for those lists when they’re looking to move over here, especially if you’re looking at the D-7 visa. So yes, we love helping people out so people can email us, we’re obviously on social media, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, everything like that. And everything has Expats Everywhere. So, you can find us there and we would love your support.

David: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for talking through your amazing journey and experiences, and can’t wait to see what’s next for you guys in the coming months and years.

Kalie: Yes, thanks, David. Thanks for having me.

Outro

Thanks to Kalie for sharing her story with us. You can find the full transcript for this episode at expatempire.com.

Music on this episode was produced by Eli Hermit, please check him out on Bandcamp and Spotify.

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Originally published at https://expatempire.com on March 11, 2021