A DIY path to Product Management with Tom Lui

This interview is part of our Roads to Product Management series. Questions and responses have been paraphrased where necessary for clarity.

Tom Lui is a Product Manager for the Driver Experience Theme at GOGOVAN. He previously studied at University of Toronto’s Rotman School of Management and worked in banking-related roles before creating his unique path into Product Management. You can find him on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Can you tell us a bit about yourself, your background in school and in work?

I’m Tom, the PM responsible for Driver Experience at GOGOVAN. I graduated with a Bachelor of Commerce, mainly studying Economics and Finance. I worked as a management trainee in corporate lending at a bank for over two years before I started looking for a transition. At a startup seminar, Ray Chan, the founder of 9GAG, was present. He used to be a trainee at a local bank as well, so I asked him a few questions about why he made the change and how it went.

We exchanged contacts and started chatting. He asked if I was interested in product management. At that point I had no idea what product management was, so I read articles by the legendary Paul Graham and started to grasp the basics of it. I interviewed with Ray but didn’t end up taking the offer.

I had considerations about the transition, and whether I should give up my banking career to jump into an area I didn’t really know. I hesitated and declined, but I was still intrigued by product management and the internet startup scene.

I know you did end up joining 9GAG, so how did that come back around?

I was lucky enough to join the Google EYE program.

As I worked with my partners on different projects, I realized that the type of business and product thinking I was doing was something I felt really passionate about. Once the program ended, which was one year after I had rejected Ray, I went to another career seminar that he happened to be at as well.

They had a mock interview session and somehow picked me to do one on stage. Ray openly asked me, “why did you reject my offer at the beginning?” and I immediately cursed at myself.

I explained how I wasn’t sure that product management was for me at first; but now, I will treasure the opportunity because I know this is what I want. I want to excel in this area, and it’s something I really look forward to.

The next week, we interviewed over breakfast at 7am — he made it that early to test if I was sincere enough, or if I was just going to reject his offer again. Of course, this time I took the offer and left my banking job to become a Product Associate at 9GAG. A year later, I joined GOGOVAN as an Associate Product Manager.

That’s definitely quite a winding road to get into product. When you went through that phase of uncertainty, what ended up being the triggers that convinced you to switch into product?

To be honest, when I was working at a bank, I just clocked-in and clocked-out sharp at 5pm.

When I started working on the EYE program project, I didn’t mind the over-time or extra work. I think that is a good sign for whether you’re passionate about something and whether you will persist down the road.

In the group, we didn’t really have people who were engineers or with tech backgrounds. We had a photographer playing the designer role, so we just worked with paper prototypes. It was all pretty scrappy, but it gave us a taste of what working as an engineer, designer, or product manager might be like. They had a lot of speaker sessions from industry experts, designers, and founders who shared how they transitioned and started their careers, and I found that inspiring as well.

What I gained the most from that project was not what they taught me, but what I learned about myself.

What were those main things that you were willing to put extra time into, that you were passionate about?

I spent most of my time planning out the business model. In the program, we had to come up with ideas, and we had to pivot if our mentors didn’t think it was sustainable. We also had to come up with prototypes. At the time, I didn’t have much knowledge in tech or design so I was mainly focused on the business plan: how to make the idea scalable and sustainable.

It was quite exhausting, but I found it very challenging and rewarding because you think about how you can turn an idea or vision into a real business: something with value.

What was your biggest challenge when you first became a product associate?

I knew very little about product management and had no idea to do when I first joined 9GAG. I was told that part of the job is breaking things down and having ownership of the product you ship. But I was a product associate, so I didn’t really own the product, and I didn’t know how to help.

One of the tasks I was given was app store optimization, which neither me nor the PM I was with had prior knowledge of. We just had to read a lot of articles and share our learnings.

It was all quite challenging to me because I had quit my stable banking job to be a product associate with a heavy pay-cut. A lot was at stake and I didn’t want to screw it up.

I just had to try and figure out different ways to show that I am capable and do bring value to the company, even though I had no tech or PM background.

Were there any challenges you faced that you feel stemmed from your previous background or studies?

To be honest, I don’t think so. I was quite blessed that back in my university days, I just took whatever courses I found interesting — though that did not help boost my GPA. I took psychology, I took digital economy, which was some new subject nobody would take, and I took one called Integrative Thinking about holistically approaching problems instead of solutions.

Those weren’t very helpful in the beginning when I was at the bank, but when I transitioned into PM, those were the courses that helped me the most, more so than finance or economics.

Are there still ways your background in finance and economics has helped you in product?

I think economics and accounting helped, but particularly economics. It is a subject that teaches you how people make rational decisions. There’s also always supply and demand; and especially with GOGOVAN being a two-sided marketplace, that knowledge helps when me make different decisions.

With accounting, it gives you the business perspective, seeing things as costs or investments. It also gives you mutual understanding with the finance team because you know what they would think and how to see things from their perspective.

When you transitioned from a product associate at 9GAG to an associate product manager here at GOGOVAN, were there any major differences?

It wasn’t really about the role transition, but more about the company cultures. I think 9GAG was more Silicon Valley-styled, especially as a graduate from Y-Combinator. Meanwhile, GOGOVAN was more of a local company. We didn’t really have the processes for product discovery or channels for discussions with engineers. It was a shock to me when I first joined.

Before Vincent (our Director of Product Management) joined, there was literally no product mentor.

We had to work our way out of things: go online and read articles, blog posts to learn some of the best practices. Even if we knew what the best practices were, we didn’t have the authority or bargaining power to drive changes, so that was one of the struggles as well.

After Vincent joined the company, it took him months to rebuild trust so that stakeholders were willing to share their concerns, propose requirements, or give feedback on solutions we proposed.

The biggest change I’ve observed in the past few years is the level of trust between the product team and others stakeholders in the company.

What advice do you have for PMs working somewhere that doesn’t have a strong product culture yet (like in the earlier days of GOGOVAN)?

Back then, the feedback loop was broken, but I have to take some blame for that because I didn’t voice out the problems we were facing. Even if I observed issues and knew so-called best practices, I didn’t really step up to talk to managers, so we just carried on with the same way of doing things.

I think if other PMs are in a similar situation, and they are not in a position to make changes, they have to voice out to their product leader or even the CEO, especially if they think the issues are critical to the company.

I also just talked to engineers directly, even if the culture back then didn’t encourage it. Out of curiosity, I wanted to know what people thought about my ideas, so I would grab coffee with them in private.

In your path to product, there were a lot of instances when you had to take a scrappy, DIY approach. You mentioned relying on a lot of reading and self research. How do you go about finding and choosing those materials?

I asked my Senior PM to share some of the blogs or people that they follow. Back then, I only knew a few product leaders, so I just followed what they read as well. I figured if they were leaders, then the things that they read or liked must also come with good insights.

But even with product leaders, you have to be careful, or even skeptical, of the solutions they share. Just because a solution worked for them at the time or at their company, doesn’t mean that it is going to be the same for you.

You have to ask yourself, why are they making such a decision, and why do you think that solution worked for them in that environment? Instead of just thinking “oh, they are using agile, then agile must work perfectly for our company too”, you need to know that it works for them because, say, their engineers trust their PMs so in the iteration process, people are willing to give feedback. Therefore, if the level of trust in your own company is low, even if you use the same processes, they wouldn’t achieve the same outcomes.

The context of the company’s culture, priorities, and challenges might not be shared in the articles, so you really have to dig deep and understand the problems that you are facing versus the problems others are trying to solve.

Looking back, what is the biggest difference between what you initially thought product management was, and what you think it is now?

I think everyone is familiar with the stereotype that “PM is the CEO of the product”, so it seems like you have total ownership and final say on all decisions regarding the product. What I’ve learned is that while you are the one to decide the roadmap, in most cases, you’re not the one to decide the ultimate product vision. Usually a PM turns the founder or company vision into a reality, so you’re still under a hierarchy and don’t have that hundred-percent authority. It’s not like you are the CEO and get to decide how other parties should work either, so there’s compromise and learning to work with other stakeholders.

At first, I also thought product was simply about breaking things down to solve. That is part of it, but you have to go beyond to distill and unveil the opportunities behind the problems.

Back at 9GAG, the Senior PM would define a problem, then I would think of a solution and break it down into different MVPs or stages. I didn’t really have visibility on the entire thing: why the problem is worth solving, what solving this problem meant to the company in the long-run. So in transitioning from a Product Associate to a PM, I’ve also realized the importance of opportunity and priority, and not just product solution.

What do you enjoy most about being a PM?

Despite not being the CEO of the product, I still have a lot of autonomy. When the trust level is high, it’s much easier for you to pitch your ideas to different stakeholders, local teams, or teammates such as engineers. It gives me the autonomy to decide what is best for a team on the problem and solution levels.

Being a PM at GOGOVAN in particular, there’s a lot of potential. We have been growing rapidly in Southeast Asia, as well as other countries. Also, because GOGOVAN is a two-sided market, the problems you get to work on are much more challenging compared to typical products in e-commerce, gaming, or utility functions.

Let’s say you change something on the driver’s side, how would that translate into changes on the demand side and so forth? There’s a lot more hidden complexity when you make decisions, so I find that a really great learning experience.

Given your experience and all the resources that exist today, how would you design a roadmap for someone who doesn’t have much leverage in their current role, but wants to transition into product management?

Have coffee chats with different PMs or people who are in the tech industry, so at least you know what it’s going to be like, and what are the risks involved in making the transition.

I say tech industry meaning companies that were born during or after the internet age like 9GAG or GOGOVAN, as opposed to a very traditional bank. Even though the first two are in different industries, it’s more about the internet vs traditional mindsets because the way we approach problems is different.

For companies in the internet age, distribution cost is low for the most part, so you’re more focused on how to optimize variable costs, how to scale up to increase revenue and number of visitors or service users.

In a more traditional industry, they’re really thinking about how to maximize profit or revenue for certain locations or certain products only. The culture is different as well. In traditional industries, they often have a lot of laws and processes with strong hierarchies. In tech industry companies or startups, the culture tends to be more open to feedback and the organization is more flat.

The second step, I would say is to participate in events like Startup Weekend, or other hackathons if possible.

Get to know what it’s like to be in a rapid environment, how to work with teammates under stress and a tight timeline — that is a must, whether you have the resilience to work under stress.

You’ll also know if running a product or building a product is something that you find interesting.

The third point, if you find out you are interested, then I would suggest that you look for a position opening in some well-established internet company instead of jumping into a newly-founded startup, which is a high, high risk.

You want to minimize the risk of the company failing because you’re already making a huge transition and bearing the risk of you failing a new role, so I would suggest you join a company that’s relatively established, but still with that internet startup DNA.

After you have established yourself, you can decide if you want to try a smaller startup to have even more autonomy.

Once you do make it into your first role, you have to set weekly goals, or any cadence faster than a quarterly review, so you get rapid feedback from your mentor. You can see whether you’re making significant progress to the metric defined, and it keeps you on your toes that you have to keep improving.

Besides your product mentor, you can also ask teammates for feedback. What they think about how you handled a certain situation, or what you can do to help facilitate them further — these are all helpful as well.

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