007.
Thomas Hörl
Artist from Salzburg, based in Vienna.
In your performances you work with a specific type of mythology – the Austrian folklore. My first contact with this phenomenon was in Hallein, where they organise the annual Krampus-run. Comparing what you do with it on a performance level and the original, ritualistic processions of these particular myths, I was struck by how well the old processions transcends into the modern performance art. Do you know what I mean? Have you noticed it too?
Well, not really. I never planned it to see it like a open-source-format. In the beginning I was more interested to know more about these practices, customs and these festive events and all the stories behind. Because as a child, it was such an important impact for my childhood. But not only the Krampus. Then there were some other stories about creatures, it was more like an oral history, like a fairy tale or a legend, which had a scary impact as well.
The stories about the Oat Goat, about Frau Berchta, that they open your belly and put dust inside, or your toys, if you don’t clean up your room at night. These figures were also part of some Perchten runs, not in the village Golling where I grew up, more inside the valley; Gastein, Altenmarkt, the Pongau area. I think it creates a big fantasy for a child, when you only hear it and don’t see it.
I was coming to that, that these extraordinary stories and happenings must leave a huge impression when you experience it as a child.
Yeah… somehow you forget it. There are always two separate things that get mixed up here when people talk about it. The Krampus parade, the transformation of the devil, which accompanies Sankt Nikolaus. That is very organised. In our childhood, they “only” came to your house to visit. There were some events, but now there’s like these big parties and Krampus events in every little town. Also like the christmas season itself, the Krampus got extended into one week before and after the actual day of the 5th of December — if not even longer.
But I think we maybe suffered a little more, because it was very intimate situations. That you are in your protected family house, then these guys enter your house and.. (laughs) that was very frightening for me. I was so… scared. I don’t remember if I knew that there were persons underneath the masks, at least not when you are three or four years old. But later, of course, when you go to school and everybody talks about it and so.
It was a mix of fun and scare. As kids we used to tease them a little bit, like a game. The days before December 5, the teenagers do the running in the neighbourhood, you tease them. It was a kind of hide-and-seek-game with them. They try to catch you and so.
The parents agree to this, is there some moral lesson they are trying to teach here, or what’s the purpose?
I think, yeah, it’s such a tradition that nobody asks anymore about the reason (laughs). Of course as a child, you begged your parents “please, don’t let them in”. On the other hand, you got a present you know? (laughs). They had like this bag with chocolate, nuts, socks, gloves, things like that. Maybe a little toy.
So first comes Krampus and then Nikolaus, or how is this working?
They come together. But nowadays, the parents can do it differently. Like “just let in Nikolaus”. And everything is arranged of course, a constructed, theatrical situation. Even though it’s a tradition, you have to call them now. In our society it’s not like they go from house to house and knocks anymore, now it’s more organised.
All this stuff, I think, at least in the alpine regions, comes a lot from the Catholic church, from the catechism, the teachings about religion to get a deeper belief and so. And somehow they invented this devil figure, which funnily got independent over the years.
Somebody told me that the Catholic church would only allow the old pagan, pre-christian traditions if they could adapt them somehow to fit their own doctrines.
The scientific standpoint is that you can’t proof exactly how the specific myths came to be. In some cases the church just built new temples over the old places of belief. It is probably like that. I wouldn’t say that these customs are thousands of years old. They are very much contemporary, I think. Created within the last 300–400 years or so.
There is some stuff in there that interests me very much, there is a female figure. Frau Berchta, and she didn’t show up in our childhood. I found it really interesting to do research on this figure later on. As mentioned, it was invented and probably played by monks and later it got somehow a transition to independence, like people used masks and old coats to dress up not to get recognised while begging. Yes, actually the very popular Sternsingen could be the contemporary version to this too. The masked customs turned out quite versatile and different.
Also, it’s a funny mixture of carnival tradition and from the courts, where they had all these super-fancy carnival traditions and masked balls and everything. Then normal people somehow copied this and made their own parties. For example, it’s very obvious and visible that some textiles brought along the Säumerwege which were connected to Venice.
There were some worker unions, especially in Nuremberg. They wanted to have one day of the year where anybody could be the boss, a so-called verkehrte Welt, the opposite world, the servants could be the kings. This is how the carnival tradition started.
So all this traditions and folklore must be a like a rich treasure of stories and ideas for you to be inspired from?
For me it’s very much inspiring because there are so many impacts. As you mentioned in your question earlier, some people think it’s a super old pagan culture, then there’s a scientific point where they say it’s more related to the carnival traditions and the church, then there’s the folkloric side where you created so many things over hundreds of years, that every village has something special to show in the festival season, you know.
Of course it was used for ideological reasons, very notable in the nationalistic movements in the 19th century and later in the NS-propaganda too. Customs always tell you about the time, and its even very easy to create new ones.
So for my work, I collect it, somehow. Research, watch it, I talk to scientists as well.. or I go to the library and read some texts. From this I bring it to the contemporary and try to interpret it in an artistic way. I like to transform it, to deconstruct it, mix it up with other things like popular culture, for example.
I also see these parallells to the visual arts; if you see how they make the costumes, the sewing and stitching, the masks… everything. They even have professional choreographers. I think it’s very much related to the visual arts, or theater artists, directors, performance artists, you know. So I think you kind of share the same passion and you need a lot of time, because you don’t get paid for it. You do it because you love it. And in a way the structure is similar; you also have presentations and exhibitions, stuff like this. There are dates in a year where they show their talent.
I’m also interested in the fact that both sides cannot stand each other. They kind of hate each other.
Which ones?
Yeah, the traditionalists and the contemporary artists. I think they work — maybe not in a research-based way — but in the way of crafting, there are a lot of similarities. I just found it interesting that there’s a really big gap between the two. It’s because “we” are more liberal, “they” are more within the conservative parties, traditionalists, nationalists, to show what your region is about. It has a kind of smell of the past, of something un-moveable.
There is a very big fraction inside them where they don’t allow women to take part of the parades, because of some self-created law… or something. There are many, many things like this. But who is doing the work in the background… ?
Do you engage in a conversation with the traditionalists, as you call them?
Sometimes I am more in between these two fractions, if I’m working with it. I try to avoid to be pedagogical, to be the person who says what is right or wrong. For me it’s important to show, to bring it to another level. To bring it out in the open, so you can read it. In an ambiguous way, I sometimes have to explain my work. It’s not understandable from the very beginning. You might get a feeling that there’s something more to it, like with fairy tales and folklores.
I was getting to that, because for me, with a lot of conceptual art there are often many layers of meaning to understand the message. Can it be frustrating to have to explain the message to an audience, does it bother you?
Me, I am a consumer of other art as well and I like to discover the artworks and that I need more information about the context and so. I enjoy that. I am also happy to explain what I do, to write about it, yeah.
As an example, the shape of the rhomb or diamond is visible very often in my work. It’s a stark symbol and I find it very often in folklorisitic aesthetics as well as in arts and design.
What kind of reactions do you get from an audience, is there any typical reaction that you have recognised?
It’s really different, depending on if you work towards the art scene, where everything is possible and everybody is really open. But not all people are telling you the truth. You can get some compliments, but they are not really honest. It would be a better reaction if it’s happening in an art context.
Generally I’m not getting so much criticism. But when I and some colleagues were doing interviews with people who work in the folklore-scene, we got some agressive tones then. They were not interested in our questions.
Why was it a problem for them, do you think?
First of all, I think they are afraid that you will copy their traditions. They don’t like to get criticised, when you ask them why they exclude women from their performances. They often mention that it’s a “body thing”, that the women cannot wear the heavy masks. They can sometimes have hats weighing 20 kilos or so… but there are other figures without heavy masks, so…
You think it’s about misogyny?
Yeah… we did this other project in an art in public-context, and got together people from the village to a podium. It was part of the Medicine Mountain project. There was a Salzburg version and a Tyrol version. Both were research-based projects and also included a video performance.
Before we started to film the video performance, we invited experts to talk; about the region, cultures and so. Plus it was open to everyone. Therefore we created a so-called Meeting Mountain. It looked like a baldachin and was carried by ourselves. We had a press release, we told the villagers that they are welcome to talk with the expert, or with us at the podium, like a speaker’s corner.
So people from the village showed up and they were really angry about it. Also, I didn’t know that in Imst, Tyrol, they organize a children’s and a grown-up’s version of the Imster Schemenlaufen every two years. I was really shocked that the girls are not allowed to take part of this. I imagine if I would be a girl in this town, I would go mad. I mean why? They have this dances, it’s a huge event… it’s also protected from the Unesco now, registered as a Intangible Cultural Heritage in Austria.
But if you understand the dialect its quite clear: Buabefasnacht!
You then teach the children that this is a tradition, but what does it mean? You see that your brothers are allowed to join… really weird. I was really happy that people showed up and asked these questions at least. And the guy who organised the laufen was really cool about it. It was interesting for me to see how he was reacting to it. He didn’t see much of a problem to it… and to us, for our artproject he was so helpful, he even allowed us to do what we want in the museum.
There’s also the question, like when you’re a village guy, or an immigrant from a foreign country; is it open for them too… ? Because you’re not really from the village. Probably, this is all changing now.
So the podium you organised was it an effort to change the way people are thinking about this stuff?
It was in the format of “making things possible”. Not in the political sense, like a Gemeinderat, a political gathering in villages where you can complain about stuff… our way was more like creating an atmosphere. Of course, we wanted them to get more into the practices of our art; like how a movie set is created, you know?
And girls were welcome?
Everybody was welcome (laughs). But this was the part that didn’t work, only the part with the discussion, maybe it was just not interesting performing with us, I don’t know.
Is performing your main way of expressing yourself in art? You’re also busy with illustrations, collage, installations, videos…and mix them into a kind of holistic experience?
I think so. “Collage” sounds so old-fashioned somehow. For me, collage is a perfect way of dealing with different layers of subjects. To divide it and split it, you know, mix it up. Even if I do other things, I use the traditional collage very often as a starting point, or parallell to my work.
With photographs I made from these parades, from nature, collected material from newspapers, drawings I made, paintings, I mix it all.
It’s a starting point, but it’s also ongoing, parallell. Right now I’m working on installations in Salzburg and Germany… it’s all of the different medias coming together in one atmosphere, to one room, the room I am creating.
Maybe you can call it three-dimensional collages as well. I use the medium of video/film, I use the performance part to re-enact, like a dance scene in a choreographic way. I also make re-enactments with photos. And there’s a sculpture/object point, which is very important. For the first time, I will produce curtains as well. They all come together in my installations.
You are often using your own persona in the center of the artwork.
I don’t know if I’m in the center. Maybe I’m around… (laughs).
How important is the geographic context in the art piece? Is location as important as the other components? I’m thinking about Meeting Mountain, for example.
Yeah, I like to work site-specific. And it’s a little bit difficult for me to work in Vienna. I think sometimes people in Vienna don’t exactly understand what I’m doing. Maybe they don’t know it, or they didn’t grew up like this. And I have this impression that, if I for example talk about the mask customs, people always think you are talking about the devil. They only think about the Krampus… the guys with the fur. But this is maybe the smallest part of my work. I’m mostly interested in the other figures – Schönperchten – which were created around the female figure, Frau Berchta. You can find it in hundreds of different forms, figures, costumes…
So, for me, it helps me for my work in these areas where they have these traditions. In Salzburg I experienced that people got some other feeling for it than people in Vienna. It was very interesting at my degree show, which was based on the figure of Frau Berchta. All the questions from the jury, they were always asking about this other figure, you know? Anyway I am very much looking forward to present new works in Vienna too.
Also when I do artists in residence-programs I’m always interested in the region I am visiting. What’s happening there, how people dress up, costume-plays, traditional festivals, what dances they have. It’s a kind of old-fashioned field research trip.
A bit anthropological maybe?
Yeah, but that’s also from a contemporary point of view. Maybe everyone is doing it anyway. Somehow you always look, how you can compare things. You discover a lot of interesting stuff, it’s very inspiring.
It’s also nice to see historical photographs of customs, there’s a really big attraction to it, I think. Also you can see the poorness, they just used what material they had available. Compared to today you see this gap, you have the welfare state. The countryside of Salzburg is really rich, people are rich… not like millionaires, but you can see it. It’s all so perfectly-ish made everything somehow.
So these old traditions turned out to be super-events, also for tourists. I think that’s an important part of this, to make your region more interesting, like advertising. And it´s very popular to create new old customs as well, found in records about the region. In Golling a new Perchtenplay was inventend in the 1990's… so finally the figures I imagined as a child became true…
It doesn’t sound so bad, I think. That old traditions finds a place in modern times. Even if it’s commercial.
That’s true. There’s also another movement where people are hiding themselves, to get away from this touristic stuff. Even visitors, you know. They don’t like so much when people are coming and watching, so they want to keep it for themselves, they distance themselves from the event culture, don’t even tell the newspapers about it, but the farms they pay a visit.
Working as a performance artist… you put your own person out directly to the public eye. Does this make you feel vulnerable or nervous in some way? That you are the artwork itself.
Well, first I have to say, I’m not doing live performances so often anymore. I used to do it quite a lot. I’m more into video performances. Even if you’re not doing live performances, you will always be vulnerable, you will be scared somehow. But if you do a live performance in a funny way you can hide yourself… so you’re not really present. When you are doing it, you are the art piece and nobody can ask questions.
You always forget it, somehow. But I don’t like the time before doing a performance. It’s not something I enjoy. It’s the same with presentations. I recently did a presentation in Medienwerkstatt Wien in the lecture format, in a kind of PechaKucha-format. Even there, before I was to make the presentation, I was uncomfortable. But then, once you start, it always works out somehow and you feel better afterwards.
I’m not a professional, I have to say also. I don’t have any acting techniques or so. I also very much see the performance art different from acting. With performance art we are not doing any rehearsals, it’s more about talking about something and creating a scenery. But it’s not that I don’t like it!
You consider yourself to be a performance artist, or are labels irrelevant?
I do care about it, but I’m a little bit surprised that some people think I’m a performance artist, I would never describe myself as that (laughs). This is really funny. It’s not a problem for me, I’m just so surprised. Most of my time, I’m doing a collage, I’m cutting a video or creating installations… so it’s the part I give the least shit about (laughs) but which is the most recognisable for others, I don’t know.
And maybe my performances are mostly visible when I am performing together with Peter (Kozek), than of my works as a solo artist. Anyway, I am planning now a performance-based project for later on, probably together with Peter. But for my solo works the performance part are maybe more visible as the re-enactments I am doing on video.
It’s funny how language, or descriptions can make one thing more important than the other things. Very interesting.
You and Peter work together and separately. How do you go about your working process when you want to do a project together. Is it planned out, or more organic?
It’s organic in the way of how the projects come in or like how our focus is. For one or two years, we were both concentrated on our respective works, our solo things. Peter is also working as a curator and scenography and set designs for other exhibitions. But we did a research trip together this year to Japan. We got a nice scholarship from the Bundesministerium which allowed us to do research in Japan.
We were very much interested in the traditional Japanese arts. This was in Tokyo, but with a Japan rail pass you can easily travel around in the country, to different regions, it’s very comfortable with the Shinkansen.
We were very much inspired by the so-called Noh theater. I think it’s very related to a religious way of performing. It’s like a minimalistic opera, only three instruments and a choir. Very minimalistic stage design. Not only, but mainly they use masks. Very rich costumes.
That’s also organic, in the way we work… we cannot see the impact of what will come when we are doing this stuff. It’s a starting point for us, to do new works from this Japanese research trip. There were different kind of festivals there every day, they call it Matsuri. It’s like summer festivals, mostly dances and showing different skills, also hanabi, the fireworks.
All very beautiful things.
Related links
Homepage of Thomas Hörl
Homepage of kozek hörlonski
Interview by Anders Khan Bolin | @strayl1ght
