Mikey Weinstein on MRFF’s Military Activism
*Full biographical sketch at the end of the interview.*
Michael L. “Mikey” Weinstein is the undisputed leader of the national movement to restore the obliterated wall separating church and state in the most technologically lethal organization ever created by humankind: the United States armed forces. Described by Harper’s magazine as “the constitutional conscience of the U.S. military, a man determined to force accountability”, Mikey’s family has a long and distinguished U.S. military history spanning three consecutive generations of military academy graduates and over 130 years of combined active duty military service in every major combat engagement our country has been in from World War I to the current Global War on Terror. Mikey is a 1977 Honor Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. Mikey has been married for 47 years to his wife, Bonnie. He is the proud parent of two sons, one daughter, two granddaughters, and one grandson. His oldest son and daughter-in-law are 2004 Graduates. Seven total members of Mikey’s family have attended the Academy. His father was a distinguished graduate of the United States Naval Academy. Mikey served for more than 10 years with the Judge Advocate General (“JAG”) Corps. A registered Republican, he also spent over three years working in, and for, the West Wing of the Reagan Administration as legal counsel in the White House. In his final position there, Mikey was named the Committee Management Officer of the much-publicized Iran-Contra Investigation in his capacity as Assistant General Counsel of The White House Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President of the United States. Mikey has held numerous positions in corporate America as a senior executive businessman and attorney. After stints at prominent law firms in both New York City and Washington D.C., Mikey served as the first General Counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time Presidential candidate H. Ross Perot and Perot Systems Corporation. He left Mr. Perot’s employ in 2006 to focus his fulltime attention on the nonprofit charitable foundation he founded to directly battle the far-right militant radical evangelical religious fundamentalists: the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What kind of hate do you get now, individually or through the MRFF?
Mikey Weinstein: If my last name were Smith and I was a plumber instead of Weinstein — obviously Jewish and a lawyer — I don’t think we’d see 99% of the harassment we go through.
My wife has written two books, published in L.A., that include the hate mail we receive, which is unbelievably vile. Every single day, we still get a flood of grotesque, hateful threats that we have to live with. But we’re not going to let that impact our sailors, soldiers, Marines, Guardians — what they’re called in the Space Force — or any of our other clients. We’re built to handle it.
You can imagine, though, if we get this level of harassment, how hard it is for an 18- or 19-year-old service member to stand up. I remember one of our key cases: a Navajo sailor on one of our huge aircraft carriers — small cities with 4,000 or 5,000 sailors aboard. A fundamentalist Christian chief petty officer was relentlessly proselytizing him.
Jacobsen: Chief petty officer? Only that rank? Not like a lieutenant colonel or something?
Weinstein: No, just a senior NCO. This sailor’s Navajo faith is about 10,000 years old, yet he was mercilessly evangelized. We disciplined and reassigned the chief petty officer to another part of the ship. About a week later, we received a message via Window Rock, Arizona, the capital of the Navajo Nation. It was from the parents of that 19-year-old sailor.
The message still gives me chills. It was brief, just a few words. But it became our mantra: “Please tell Mr. Weinstein and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation thank you for being the voices we are not allowed to speak with.” I think about that every day, multiple times.
Most of our clients are Protestants, followed by Roman Catholics. Only 5% of our nearly 91,000 clients are non-Christians. We have over 1,100 staff at the foundation, both paid and volunteer, similar to many civil rights organizations. Our representatives cover most U.S. military installations worldwide, with a network of about 1,000 people. Roughly 84% of our staff are Christians themselves. So this narrative from the religious right, claiming that “Mikey and his people eat good Christians for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, with snacks in between,” is complete nonsense. However, it does create a security issue for us. We live with cameras, infrared surveillance, and everything else for protection.
And by the way, Article VI, Clause 3 of the Constitution states that no religious test shall ever be required for any position in the federal government. The last time I checked, being a member of the U.S. military qualifies as a federal position. Under the guise of ensuring “spiritual readiness” for our military members, they’re trying to impose a religious agenda. We recently broke a story about Lieutenant General Ryan Eifler, the most senior personnel officer in the U.S. Army. As Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, he oversees all Army personnel worldwide. He has disturbing ties to the New Apostolic Reformation — a group I’d describe not just as Christian nationalists but as Christian extremists working hard to create a modern-day Gilead, a fundamentalist Christian nationalist state like in The Handmaid’s Tale.
He’s also associated with people deeply involved in the January 6, 2021 events. So, it’s a dangerous situation. You can deny it, but facts are stubborn things, Scott. You can argue all day that something doesn’t exist, but if I put my hand over an open flame, it will burn.
Sometimes, people ask, “How pervasive, how systemic is this problem?” So, since we’re on Zoom, I’ll take advantage. I usually ask them to pick up a pen or a pencil and hold it up.
Jacobsen: Okay, I’m listening.
Weinstein: Then I ask, “Why did it drop, Scott?”
Jacobsen: Gravity, Mikey.
Weinstein: Exactly. How pervasive and systemic is gravity on planet Earth, Scott?
Jacobsen: Completely.
Weinstein: There you go. So, that’s what I tell them. If you go to the International Space Station, you won’t have the same gravity issues. But here on Earth, it’s inescapable. That’s how fundamentalist Christian dominionism and nationalism have become embedded in the very DNA of our military. It’s in the air conditioning of what we often call the “Pentecostal Gong” of the Pentagon.
When I speak around the country, people say, “I served in the Marines for 20 years, and I never saw that.” I’ll ask, “Where are you from?” They might say Nashville, Toronto, Vancouver, Boise, New York, or Denver. I’ll follow up with, “Did you ever personally witness a rape, an armed robbery, or a murder in those cities?” They usually say no. So, if they never personally witnessed it, does that mean it doesn’t happen? Right?
Many people avoid discussing this because it touches on privilege. If you’re a straight, white, Christian male, you have a tremendous advantage over others. Acknowledging that privilege, which is unearned, often sparks outrage. But we see its effects daily.
I grew up as a military brat; my dad graduated from the Naval Academy and took his commission in the Air Force, and I grew up on Air Force bases. I had never encountered anti-Semitism before — I was involved in school, sports, and everything. However, I faced it directly during my first semester at the Air Force Academy. I was physically assaulted twice and knocked unconscious, and they never found the perpetrators.
It was almost like a taunt; they didn’t catch anyone, and there were no consequences. Thirty years later, the same experiences were revisited in my children. That was the thread I started pulling, Scott, to see where it led. And as I kept pulling, the sweater unravelled. Before I started this work, the Academy loved me.
I was Ross Perot’s general counsel — he ran for president, an Academy grad. I was also a lawyer for President Reagan in the White House. I donated much money to the Academy. Still, then I became the “bad boy” because we stood up for people who were being crushed for not being the “right” type of Christian.
As I mentioned, we have over 24 different varieties of Baptists among our clients. We’ve defended individuals from every major faith tradition here except Scientology. I’m still waiting for Tom Cruise to reach out, but he’s not in the military.
Jacobsen: He’s more of a film star nowadays, right?
Weinstein: I think he is — a bit of a maverick.
Jacobsen: That’s right!
Weinstein: So, it’s a hard fight. Technically, we report to the IRS that my workweek is 105 hours — a schedule of 7 AM to 10 PM daily. This morning, it started at 4:25 AM with calls for help from a military base overseas. This happens a lot.
And I’m not playing a violin here. I’m not saying, “Oh, I’m so wonderful, such a tough guy, with such a tough life.” No, I’m the most flawed person I know, but we’re fighting something that must be fought. If you look back to Machiavelli’s The Prince, when you aim at the prince, Scott, you better kill the prince.
So, yes, we’re aggressive and militant. Still, our militancy supports the bedrock separation of church and state within the U.S. military. Even though some people crossed us three times within six weeks, like when a certain commander first took over, he did eventually do something positive. We called that out with cautious optimism. He’s not a 20-star general; he’s a three-star general, and maybe he’ll never get a fourth star, but at least it’s something.
Other military branches have nothing equivalent to Air Force Instruction 1–1, Section 2.16. So, we must rely on other regulatory provisions or the Constitution itself. In most cases, our biggest weapon is media exposure. We don’t necessarily need reporters; we have direct access to outlets like Daily Kos and sometimes get picked up by others like L.A. Progressive. However, we still engage with traditional media. Some ask why we even talk to outlets like One America News, Newsmax, Fox, or Breitbart.
It’s simple: we can’t just speak to outlets that already understand this. The Humanist and American Humanist are great platforms, and they’re not tied to these belief systems. We don’t criticize anyone’s beliefs. We don’t care if you believe in Spider-Man or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Our focus here at the foundation is clear: we address when, where, and how superiors deploy their faith or lack thereof.
In over 20 years of this work, we’ve only encountered one instance of misconduct from an atheist superior and addressed it immediately.
The overwhelming majority of the time, we haven’t had issues with Muslim supremacism, and we’ve rarely encountered problems involving Jewish or LDS Mormon beliefs. Almost 99.9% of the time, the issue arises from Christian dominionists or Christian nationalists. And it doesn’t stop, nor will it stop, until we see punitive measures that make people reconsider their actions — similar to how someone might avoid speeding on the highway if they know it’ll result in an $80,000 fine.
If you look at this election season, we’re up against entities pushing the “Make America Great” agenda, where terms like diversity, equity, inclusion, and critical race theory are targeted. Critical race theory, for instance, merely acknowledges systemic issues and historical injustices, yet opposing it is branded as patriotic. Then there’s the label of “woke,” which is equated to Marxism or socialism. Meanwhile, we already have social systems: public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, the postal service, police, and fire departments — all funded by taxes. So, debating whether something is “socialistic” misses the point. The point is that people are people, and their rights deserve respect.
To tell a member of the U.S. military that they lack integrity, character, discipline, honour, intelligence, or worthiness because of their faith or lack thereof is no different than telling someone they’re lesser due to their skin colour or gender. As I’ve said, it’s as simple as a hamburger or a hot dog — it’s not complex.
After nearly 20 years of this work, we’ve reached a point where we’re well-known. When we contact someone, especially on behalf of multiple subordinates — most Christians — they know why we’re there, and they don’t like it. Our clients include Sikhs, Muslims, Jews, atheists, agnostics, humanists, and secularists. We represent everyone.
Senior commanders who blow the whistle on their organizations have been an interesting phenomenon over the past 8–10 years. In a shadowy fashion, they reach out to me or the foundation, pointing out issues. They need to respond to us reactively rather than proactively trying to address it independently. We don’t shame them for that. I could say, “Yes, Admiral, General, you’re the one with stars on your shoulders — why don’t you do something?” But they know we’ll address it often because they trust us to handle it effectively.
If their chain of command does not fault them, then “Hurricane Mikey” and “Hurricane MRFF” roll in. We get it — sometimes they had to do what they had to do. But little do people know that commanders, generals, and admirals bring us many of these issues.
So we bite our lips. I don’t lecture them about it or say, “Hey, we’re not a line item in the budget like you are.” We don’t run on chocolate sauce; we run on dollars. We’re just a cherry on top. They’re the ones who will retire as generals or admirals with pensions, and there’s a reason they have those stars on their shoulders. But we don’t shame them; we’re glad they come to us. This started about a decade ago.
There’s a famous movie, Casablanca, with Humphrey Bogart. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. In the film, his character, Rick, runs a casino in French-controlled Morocco during World War II. It’s a restaurant, a nightclub, and an illegal gambling spot. At one point, the gendarmes come in and accuse Rick of running gambling. He says, “What? Gambling? I’m shocked, shocked!” — knowing full well it’s happening. That’s how it feels when these generals or admirals whistle on their organizations.
When their old bosses come around and ask, “What happened? I didn’t know this was going on!” Well, we help fix it.
By the way, with a name like Jacobsen, are you Jewish, either ethnically or otherwise?
Jacobsen: That’s astute! “Jacobson” has roots in Reform Judaism, founded by Israel Jacobson in 1810.
Weinstein: Early in the 19th century.
Jacobsen: Reform Judaism began in Germany around that time. My family background came up in my DNA results — 100% Northwestern European with a trace of something my grandmother used to call “gypsy.” So, some of our family might have roamed a bit. But you’re right about Israel Jacobson; he started around 1810 in Germany. Israel Jacobson, spelled with an “o-n” rather than “e-n.”
Weinstein: I’d like to know if there’s any relation.
Jacobsen: Given my last name, I would like to know if there is some Jewish heritage, but 23andMe mainly shows nationality. Given the European background, it could indicate Ashkenazi heritage, but it’s hard to know for certain.
Weinstein: Right, it could be Ashkenazi, but who knows? All our blood is bonded — we’re all connected. I’m not here to argue whether the world is 6,000 years old, as some of the people we challenge believe. Like I say, I don’t care what someone’s beliefs are. Every morning, I wake up to about two dozen messages from some of the largest Christian organizations in the country, all proselytizing to me.
I also get texts from individual Christians with Bible verses, often from Proverbs or the New Testament, urging me to convert. I always tell them, “It’s not about your beliefs. We don’t care about anyone’s views; it’s only about the time, place, and manner they think they can impose them on subordinates.”
Jacobsen: This was a great conversation.
Weinstein: Glad to hear that. Thanks, Scott. Appreciate it.
Jacobsen: Bye, and talk again soon.
—
Michael L. “Mikey” Weinstein is the undisputed leader of the national movement to restore the obliterated wall separating church and state in the most technologically lethal organization ever created by humankind: the United States armed forces. Described by Harper’s magazine as “the constitutional conscience of the U.S. military, a man determined to force accountability”, Mikey’s family has a long and distinguished U.S. military history spanning three consecutive generations of military academy graduates and over 130 years of combined active duty military service in every major combat engagement our country has been in from World War I to the current Global War on Terror. Mikey is a 1977 Honor Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy. Mikey has been married for 47 years to his wife, Bonnie. He is the proud parent of two sons, one daughter, two granddaughters, and one grandson. His oldest son and daughter-in-law are 2004 Graduates. Seven total members of Mikey’s family have attended the Academy. His father was a distinguished graduate of the United States Naval Academy. Mikey served for more than 10 years with the Judge Advocate General (“JAG”) Corps.
A registered Republican, he also spent over three years working in, and for, the West Wing of the Reagan Administration as legal counsel in the White House. In his final position there, Mikey was named the Committee Management Officer of the much-publicized Iran-Contra Investigation in his
capacity as Assistant General Counsel of The White House Office of Administration, Executive Office of the President of the United States. Mikey has held numerous positions in corporate America as a senior executive businessman and attorney.
After stints at prominent law firms in both New York City and Washington D.C., Mikey served as the first General Counsel to Texas billionaire and two-time Presidential candidate H. Ross Perot and Perot Systems Corporation. He left Mr. Perot’s employ in 2006 to focus his fulltime attention on the nonprofit charitable foundation he founded to directly battle the far-right militant radical evangelical religious fundamentalists: the Military Religious Freedom Foundation.
Mikey has appeared innumerable times on all of the major cable and terrestrial TV news networks and is a frequent guest on national radio networks as well. His constitutional activism has been covered and profiled extensively in the print media including the Associated Press, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the L.A. Times, the Denver Post, The Guardian, and many other national and international newspapers and periodicals including Time magazine.
St. Martins Press in New York released Mikey’s book, “With God On Our Side: One Man’s War Against an Evangelical Coup in America’s Military” in October 2006. The paperback version was released in February 2008 with the Foreword being written by Ambassador Joseph Wilson IV. The book is an expose on the systemic problem of religious intolerance throughout the United States armed forces. At this time, Mikey also made his international film debut in the Hollywood adaptation of James Carroll’s New York Times best selling book detailing the 2,000 year bloody history between the Church and the Jews, entitled “Constantine’s Sword”, and directed by Oscar nominee Oren Jacoby.
In January, 2012, Mikey’s latest book “No Snowflake in an Avalanche: The Military Religious Freedom Foundation, its Battle to Defend the Constitution, and One Family’s Courageous War Against Religious Extremism in High Places” was released. It details MRFF’s prominent case studies, struggles, and the violent reactions to MRFF advocacy.
Mikey was named one of the 50 most influential Jews in America by the Forward, one of the nation’s preeminent Jewish publications. He also has received a nomination for the JFK’s Profile in Courage Award and received the Buzzflash Wings of Justice Award. In addition Mikey was honored by a distinguished civil rights organization, Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, with the Rabbi Marshall T. Meyer Risk-Taker Award for those who have taken risks in the pursuit of justice.
In December 2012, Defense News named Mikey one of the 100 Most Influential People in U.S. Defense. As a distinguished “Opinion shaper” exercising a hard-fought influence over the U.S. Armed Forces, Mikey’s influence has been recognized as exceeding that of former General David Petraeus himself by a publication that represents “the world’s biggest military newsroom.” Defense News is a Gannett publication — as are USA Today, The Arizona Republic, Detroit Free Press, The Indianapolis Star, The Cincinnati Enquirer, and many other prominent newspapers across the nation. Gannett Government Media consists of Defense News, Army Times, Air Force Times, Navy Times, Marine Corps Times, Armed Forces Journal and Federal Times.
Reviled by the radical fundamentalist Christian far-right, Mikey has been given many names by his enemies including “Satan”, “Satan’s lawyer”, “the Antichrist”, “That Godless, Secular Leftist”, “Antagonizer of All Christians”, “Most Dangerous Man in America” and “Field General of the Godless Armies of Satan”.
On November 7, 2011, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State presented Mikey Weinstein with AU’s first ever Person of the Year Award. In their press release, AU describes MRFF as “the leading voice protecting church-state separation in the military.”
On November 13, 2014, for the sixth consecutive year, the Military Religious Freedom Foundation was officially nominated again for the 2015 Nobel Peace Prize (its seventh total nomination).
Image Credit: Mikey Weinstein.
