Sir Lady Java/A Story of Trans Liberation and Power
Hailie Sahar, the trailblazer award-winning actor widely famed for her role as Lulu Abundance in the TV series POSE is again making history with her new project — a biopic celebrating the life and legacy of trans performer and pioneering activist Sir Lady Java. Teaming up with director Anthony Hemingway (Genus: Aretha), she is both producing, and playing Java.
I had the privilege to sit down with Hailie to talk about her personal and professional journeys, her friendship with Java, and her vision to bring this trans liberation story to the screen.
Listen to my conversation with Hailie here or where you get your podcasts
The transcript of our Kiskadee podcast conversation has been edited for length and clarity.
Bia
Hailie, can you share with us how you decided to become an actress? What was your journey and how did you get to Pose?
Hailie
I will tell you the short/medium version, because it’s super long. I was one of those kids who was more withdrawn, and my friend when I was a kid was the television. I loved watching the Oscars with my mom and I loved watching the Grammys. I remember one Christmas, I saw the Nutcracker, and told my mom, ‘that’s what I want to do.’ My mom said, ‘okay.’ So I began to self train. I started watching clips and stuff I got from the library. At the time YouTube wasn’t even around. So I would rent movies from the library and I taught myself the basics of ballet. My mom put me in a performing arts school, she has always been super supportive.
I was a trained dancer. I geared up to go to American Ballet Academy or the Alvin Dance Academy. Acting was something that I had always done as a kid from theater, to auditioning for commercials and things like that.
I was at about 15 or so when I found the ballroom scene, and I didn’t know anything about the ballroom culture. That was where I found Haile. I found myself. For full context, I’ve always felt as who I am today, as far as being a woman or a young woman at that time. It made everything make sense. I took a break from dancing and acting, because I wanted to discover myself. That’s when I started my physical medical transition, as a teenager.
Once I got to a point of being comfortable within my own skin, I decided to get back to what I had always done since I was a kid, entertainment. I had been on a few projects prior to being on Pose. I did Mr. Robot, and a play in New York called Charm. That was my first time in New York. Alexa Fogel, who is the casting director for Pose came to the theater and saw me there. My agent at the time told me about an audition that Ryan Murphy had coming up called Pose about the ballroom scene. I thought, I know this, I came from ballroom.
I auditioned for Mr. Murphy, Steven Canals and Brad Falchuk and with all the people at the production. I originally auditioned for two roles, the only two available, Blanca’s character [portrayed by MJ Rodriguez] and Electra. I think Indya Moore’s character was already cast. I didn’t think that I fit either one, especially remembering what they were looking for. But I auditioned for Blanca’s role. Ryan Murphy thought ‘you are interesting, tell me your story. Tell me about you.’ I was like, ‘Ryan, what do you want to know?’ I was talking to him as if I already knew him. I think I felt like I did because I was such a huge fan of American Horror Story.
We just began to talk, it was a regular conversation. After that, I went back to working on the play [in New York City] and my agent called me.
I was near Times Square, and my agent said, ‘are you ready for this? I have good news and bad news. I don’t know if it’s bad news, but you didn’t get the roles you auditioned for. But the good news is that Ryan Murphy is going to create a brand new character and he’s going to create the character, and he wants to make you a series regular. I just remember breaking down, crying in my taxi. The guy is looking at me, trying to console me and asking, ‘what’s wrong with you lady?’
I was so happy, because as we know, my journey as it is for a lot of trans people, just isn’t easy. All the glitz and the glam can make it seem as though it’s easy, but it’s been very rough for me.
To know that I was seen! I was even more appreciative that I was seen for myself, that something was just for me. It would have been great to get those characters too, but for someone to see something me and say, ‘I believe in you enough to take a chance to create something and then make you a regular on the show.’ I was just so honored. And that’s how I ended up on Pose.
That’s the short version of a very long story in the industry.
Bia
That is so beautiful. Sounds like your mom was very supportive of you. Who were others folks that really cared about you and supported you through this journey?
Hailie
My mom is the only person aside from my brothers. My brothers have been a great support for me when I was trying to make sense of myself.
Growing up in the nineties the only thing I could equate with what I felt, was being gay. That was all that I would hear on television. I told my mom, ‘I’m gay.’ I told my mom that, and it was so much more, but I couldn’t articulate the full knowledge of it. My mother went out and got all these books on what it meant to be gay just to support me.
I was as a child, I told my mom this when I was eight years old. I had this neon green egg from Easter and I wrote a letter and said ‘I’m gay.’ I tossed it in her room and ran. And then she came and said, ‘it’s okay’. When I said, ‘no, mom, I’m not gay, I’m actually a woman, I had the knowledge and the verbiage to articulate that.’ My mom did the same thing, she went out and got books. At this point I was a teenager, she got a book called Transamerica, I think. She got a movie for me as well, Rocky Horror Picture Show.
My mom started to do her own research. The interesting thing about this story with my mother, is that when I found the word and knowledge to convey how I felt, my mom started to remember some things about her pregnancy with me. She had her ultrasounds and visits to the doctor up until the point where I was going to be born. The doctors consistently said, ‘you’re having a girl.’ My mom went out and bought me a little dress. And she’ll tell you the story. She bought me a dress and my name was actually going to be Brittany. So when I was conceived, my mother did not know that I was not going to be a biological female, because that’s what she was told this whole time. I’m so big on the universe connecting dots.
My mother was the hugest support and she still is to this day. My brothers are amazing. I’m also a preacher’s kid. As you can imagine, it’s the same old story. It hasn’t been easy from my father’s side of my family. My father hasn’t been a support to me, and my family on that side really hasn’t. I think now they’re trying to, which is great. [It’s been] many years of trauma and pain, and being alone in this journey for me brings up a dark emotion.
Bia
You were certainly very brave as an eight year old kid to name, to go through this journey of discovery to find yourself. I’m so happy that your mom has been there for you.
I’m wondering if that is related to your interest in the project with Sir Lady Java. Can you talk about how you met Lady Java, who she is, and why this project is so meaningful for you?
Hailie
I became aware of Sir Java, about at least 13 years ago. At the time I hadn’t been on any shows. I hadn’t seen any trans representation. No one was really on television. I remember that I was doing burlesque shows, like lip sync performances, and I was at this production company where my manager rented out space for me.
During that time, I didn’t have the understanding of protecting myself and was feeling like everyone had to know my truth. I ended up telling the gentleman who owned the facility that I wanted to work there consistently, and wanted to be able to book out the space. They were doing a small TV program, and I shared, ‘I want to let you know that I’m a trans woman, a lot of people don’t know that from looking at me or talking to me.’ During that time I felt that I needed to tell everybody. I said, ‘I don’t want you to hurt me or do anything to me. I’m going to let you know upfront.’ It was in that conversation disclosing my truth that he told me that I reminded him of someone named Sir Lady Java. And I said, ‘well, who is that? I don’t know who that is.’ He said that she was very popular in the sixties. ‘And you look just like her and you act like her.’ He said ‘you need to know your history.’
I thought ‘why don’t I know my history?’ I found this stunning photo of Sir Java from the sixties. It’s a black and white photo. And she had her hair pulled up like this and she was giggling. I was just enamored by her beauty. And I was like, ‘I need to find this woman.’ Not only do I need to find her because I admired her, but I began to read that she was responsible for changing law number 9 (Rule 9).
Law number 9, for our listeners who don’t know, [was an ordinance in] Los Angeles used to prohibit anybody from dressing as the opposite gender that you were assigned at birth. People were thrown in jail for this. People were murdered for this. During the sixties, Lady Java who worked at the Red Fox night club, opened up for acts like James Brown, Lena Horn, Richard Prior. During that time, for full context, we always hear about trans people being enamored [by] the LGBTQ community. But for a Black woman, trans woman in the sixties, to be respected by cis-society, and to be featured as a headliner, that in itself is mind blowing! Java and her story is just so fascinating. I wanted to find this woman.
But going back to law number 9, Java was eventually prohibited from working. Word got out in the LAPD, and they came and shut Java’s act down because she was going against the law at the time. Java’s response was to say ‘someone has to do something about this. I’m trying to make an honest living. My sisters are trying to make an honest living. And furthermore, everyone in the community just wants to live and thrive like every other person.’ It took her four years, but Java and the ACLU eventually got the law overturned.
During that time, one of my friends, who’s no longer with me today, (he passed away), said, ‘you know, you have to play her. You have to play her in a movie.’ I thought that would be so amazing because for one, our community doesn’t know our history and two, this woman deserves her roses.
This woman’s act of selflessness has trickled into mainstream society today. And it doesn’t stop, as you would think, with trans people being able to be themselves today. It trickles into cis people who don’t even identify as trans men now, who wear nail polish, into music groups like Kiss, acts like Madonna, Beyonce, Janet Jackson, Billy Porter, RuPaul.
All of these people are standing on the shoulders of a Black trans woman from the sixties. A Black trans woman who was fearless, who believed that people should have the freedom to be how they want to be, dress how they want to dress, and make an honest living.
I reached out to some people I knew in the community, Jasmine and my former manager, Cornelius Wilson, and he helped me to find Java. I remember the day that I found her, I brought her some tulips, because a classy woman deserves flowers. I remember her coming to the door. Please excuse me if I get emotional, because for a trans person to see something in history like that, it’s just mind blowing. She came to the door, or someone came to open the door at Lady Java’s residence. And then I thought, oh my, she’s in the room! She had her poster, the same one that I had seen before, set up there with signatures from celebrities over the years. I saw this beautiful older woman coming towards me with these beautiful green eyes.
She said, ‘hi baby, it’s so nice to meet you.’ I was just looking at her and looking at the photo. It took me many, many years to find her. So the amount of anxiety, and passion, and excitement I had was like, oh my gosh! We began to have a conversation and I instantly noticed that Java and I not only resembled each other, but we had a lot of similarities in our story. Our relationship was going to go a lot deeper than just me portraying her, we were going to be friends.
At first Java said, ‘baby, you’re beautiful. And it is no offense to you, but I don’t know you.’ She said, ‘many people have wanted to play me over the years, and my story is very powerful. I want the right person to play me. You have to have the right heart and the right level of understanding of what I’ve been through.’ And I said, Lady Java, I understand. ‘Before getting your blessing,’ I said, ‘let’s just be friends. I want to pray with you because the only reason I was able to find you is because I prayed and the universe heard me. God heard me.’ Java and I started praying together and I began to visit her every other week. Sometimes I called her every week.
Eventually I asked Java for her blessing. I said, ‘I would be honored to portray you and tell your life story. I would be honored to produce it and also to play you.’ [It took] about two years to build a relationship, and Java finally said to me, ‘baby, I would love for you to play me. I’ve gotten to know you. And I know that you have a good heart and I know that you understand.’
The biggest thing that Java has given me, aside from her blessing, is that she has become one of my personal trans mothers. She gives me life advice and encourages me. For me, a young woman coming from the things that I’ve come through, (that I have not disclosed here), to have an iconic woman like that to see me and want to take me under her wing and give me her blessing, is amazing.
I feel that portraying someone is very intimate. For someone to share their story, and to let somebody else tell their story, is a very intimate thing.
We don’t know our history. I don’t know my history because society covers it up and doesn’t show it. No one talks about the dynamic things that we do as trans people, that we do as an LGBTQ+ community, or people of color, no one talks about it. People always emphasize negative things.
For the longest time I thought that the best a [trans] person who looks like me could be, is a sex worker. Because that’s what I saw other women doing. That’s the only thing that I knew. I didn’t know that this dynamic woman existed, I didn’t know that once upon a time she was on the cover of Jet Magazine, that [she was ] alive and still with us today. She changed the law and has done something bigger than herself.
I thought, why don’t I know this? I began to tell my peers about Java. And they said, who is that? And it hurt me. It crushed me. It crushed me that we don’t know our own history. And as we have seen, if you don’t know your history and you don’t see yourself represented, you don’t see the possibilities you have. That’s what pushed me to speak up for Java, to tell her story, to connect the dots within the industry.
I was given this platform and I’m so grateful, honored, and happy that I was able to be on such an iconic show like Pose. I have a platform now and with that platform, it’s my job to be a voice, to give back history, to give back knowledge. To know your history is a human right.
Bia
That is such a powerful idea that to know your history is a human right. Tell me about how you are envisioning the film, where you are in the project. How might other people be able to support you in this journey?
Hailie
Currently I have the amazing gentleman, Anthony Hemingway, attached as the director and co-executive producer. He has produced some amazing and powerful shows like Aretha Franklin, the OJ Simpson Trial, and so many amazing projects. He’s such a gentleman. We met in New York, [and he] instantly loved the story. Java loved him as well.
We are looking for fundings to support the film. As we know, it’s never been easy to tell trans stories. Oftentimes people don’t see the importance of trans bodies. So now we are looking for fundings to make this project happen. Java has done so many amazing things for society, and I really want to see that she gets her roses while she is with us.
Java is up there in age and she’s still so gracious. In my opinion [she] deserves a star on the Hollywood walk of fame. She has changed pop culture.
I’m looking for people to support the vision of a humanitarian. That’s who Java is, and telling her story would encourage so many people. And there’s an astonishing number of trans youth and people who are even older, coming out and saying, ‘hey, I’ve been trans this whole time and I’m courageous enough to say it.’ There are so many people that need that inspiration.
This is the future, this is the new society. What better way to honor people of today than to give them a sense of history, and a sense of understanding of themselves?
Bia
Hailey, you are very inspiring. I am grateful that we had a chance to have this conversation about Java and this project that is so meaningful to you — I know it will also be very important to so many people. Thank you for sharing your story, Java’s story and the passion to make this film. You are amazing!
Hailie
Thank you for saying that. I’m working on taking information that people say kindly about me. So thank you for saying that. I always feel the need to do more, and more, and more. Thank you. I appreciate everyone on this podcast. I appreciate the opportunity and the space to speak truth and love.
Follow Hailie Sahar
@hailiesahar
More About Sir Lady Java
http://transascity.org/sir-lady-java/
https://qvoicenews.com/2022/06/10/sir-lady-java-is-a-transgender-pioneer-who-fought-discrimination/
https://nhm.org/stories/sir-lady-java
https://www.transfamilyalliance.com/celebrating-15-historical-transwomen-of-the-world/
