Leadership Series Episode 26 with Keith Driscoll

This week Katya is joined by Keith Driscoll! Mr. Driscoll is an Attorney at Confidant Consult PLLC. Mr. Driscoll advises clients in a wide range of intellectual property (IP) matters, including the procurement and enforcement of IP.

In 2013, Mr. Driscoll began working as a law clerk, where he worked full time and attended evening law school. As a clerk, and under the mentorship and supervision of Attorneys recognized by Chambers USA and listed as some of America’s Best Attorneys, Mr. Driscoll become proficient in the procurement of IP, supported the enforcement of IP, and conducted legal research. More specifically, he drafted patent applications, office actions, IP agreements (Non-Disclosure, Work-for-Hire, etc.) and patentability, non-infringement, and validity opinions. Since becoming an Attorney in 2018, Mr. Driscoll has continued to develop and expand upon these skills, among new ones.

Mr. Driscoll is also an Adjunct Professor at the University Of Detroit Mercy School of Law where he enjoys teaching the Intellectual Property Law Firm Program course, and mentoring students.

In this episode, Mr. Driscoll discusses the different types of intellectual property, the litigation side of IP law, how he defines success, and advice for future and current law students!

Katya Rowely 0:00
Welcome back, everyone to law school life and beyonds leadership series. My name is Katya and I’m the host of this podcast. On today’s episode, I am joined by Keith Driscoll. He has an intellectual property lawyer in Detroit, at Confidant Consult. And he actually was also my intellectual property professor in the law firm program I took at Detroit mercy. I’m really excited for this episode, because we haven’t discussed intellectual property on this show yet. And it won’t be that you guys learn as much as I did last semester, and through this interview from Professor Driscoll about intellectual property law. So with that, thank you so much, Keith, for coming on the show today. Call thank you very much appreciate you having me. So I start off with the origin story question always, what drew you to a career in law,

Keith Driscoll 0:44
I was actually working as an engineer. And I did, I was just bored. I wasn’t doing enough engineering. And so for me, it was, I was going back to do advanced schooling either as a for a PhD in biomedical engineering, or I was going to go and pursue law, because it always interest me, ever since I was a child, and I was informed about patent law, and intellectual property. And I thought that the two were a very unique combination and thought that law school would be something I would enjoy and working in intellectual property is something that I would enjoy. And so that’s why I pursued a career in intellectual property.

Katya Rowely 1:25
Okay, and do you mind just describing the different types of intellectual property for listeners?

Keith Driscoll 1:32
Sure. There’s really three main types of intellectual property, there’s patents, trademarks, and copyrights. And with each, I’m really focusing on patents and trademarks, there are subsets to each of those that honestly take years to understand and get into. I know very high level. Patents are going to focus on the utility of a product or an invention, trademarks, we’re going to focus on protecting your brand. And then copyrights are intended to really protect artistic works. You know, great authors have got copyrights on their works. Great inventors have patents, and great businesses have trademarks. Okay.

Katya Rowely 2:32
And when it comes to patents, most people that go into patent law, have an engineering background. Yes, yes, they do. And we spoke the other day about how there’s actually a separate bar, the pattern bar, can you kind of describe that process? Because that was something I did not know.

Keith Driscoll 2:49
Yeah, so in the in the United States, you are first. But you can actually take the patent bar as an engineer. Yeah, so I’d say it’s a compliment. For for any engineer that has an interest in protecting their inventions, you can study for the patent bar, and you can be licensed what that license provides to you is the ability to practice patent prosecution before the United States Patent and Trademark Office. Patent prosecution is really just related to the filing of a patent application. In the correspondence, the correspondence between you as a as a representative of an inventor or yourself as an inventor with the USPTO. The purpose of of that, as you know, the patent patent law is very, very complex. The book that the that you have to study 1000s of pages. And there is just a lot of detail. And so the patent office wants to make sure that the person who made might be drafting a patent is going to be sufficiently knowledgeable in in drafting patent applications and USPTO procedures and patent law generally, in order to represent someone. And so if you just if you’re an engineer and you just take the patent bar and you pass, you are what is called a patent agent. You may represent clients before the patent office specifically preparing and filing and communicating with the patent office. But then also if you are an attorney, so once you become licensed as an attorney in any state, you and if you have this patent bar whether you get it before you are licensed as an attorney or after, you can notify the the patent office and you will Be come a patent attorney under the USPTO records, and you have to have both the state license and the patent bar in order to also market yourself as a patent attorney. Most patent attorneys today we’ll classify themselves under the umbrella of intellectual property attorney. I, I do not have the baton bar. I, which is something I’ve not gotten to yet. But I call myself are, you know, I said, you know, practicing intellectual property law because the majority of my work has been has related to patent patent litigation, acquisition of patents, licensing of patents, and then trademarks, some trademark filings because you can make trademark filings and communicate with the United States trademark office without a separate bar, just being a licensed US Attorney allows you to do that. Same thing with copyrights. And so the focus of my practice has really been in the litigation licensing realm of all IP, which then also kind of gets me into sometimes you trademark, you know, simple trademark filings, simple copyright filings. And then, you know, making sure that the recording of IP is is appropriate in each of the various offices.

Katya Rowely 6:31
Okay, and was just writing the patent bar, something you ever considered? Or was it always going to be law school as well as the patent bar?

Keith Driscoll 6:40
So I, I did want to do law school and the patent bar. But since I’ve been practicing, my career goals have changed slightly. And so I think the patent bar is going to be out of the question. Just the mainly, again, just my career goals, they have a different focus rather than just for me drafting patent applications, and the communications with the USPTO. I don’t know if that’s something I want to necessarily do on a day to day basis. I like the intellectual stimulation of like, litigation, and also assessing the law, in the totality, you know, the premise of the law, why is the law applied the way it is, etc. And so that’s where I would like to focus my career moving forward.

Katya Rowely 7:27
Okay. Okay. I remember I, my brother had like a little baby invention, and I started looking up different patents. And I was like, this is German. So specialized. Oh, wow. Like patent law is just so far out of my scope. It’s not even funny.

Keith Driscoll 7:42
Yes, yes. Yes, reading a patent is it takes some skill, and honestly, it takes years of practice. Even after years of practice, there’s still a lot you don’t know, it’s been suggested to me that to be a good patent attorney, you need seven years, because in seven years of practice, you’ll probably see things once. But that’s, and so then the same thing is once makes it difficult to be an expert in an area. So it the complexity of it just makes it a very unique practice. And something that what you’ll find is that a lot of attorneys, you know, if they’re a patent attorney, they’ll focus in the patent prosecution world where that is as acting really, as the agent, you know, having all the communications with the USPTO. And representing clients in that way. You’ll also have like the IP litigation bubble, where you’ll have attorneys who typically are patent attorneys, they do not have to be though, that oak is third career on patent litigation, so enforcement, infringement issues, defending against a patent infringement claim. And then the third and smaller group is the licensing. So the individual, the attorneys that will focus on licensing, purchasing, selling patents, and those types of more business oriented IP aspects. And that’s where I’ve been, I’ve been in the business IP, and then the, the litigation side.

Katya Rowely 9:22
Okay. And so what is the litigation side look like? What is your day to day kind of look like in that role?

Keith Driscoll 9:27
Yeah, so that really is, you know, there, there’s a lot of work in it. There can be long days sometimes in but the thing that I like about the IP litigation is that each case is unique. And I also get to see just all the different technologies and I also get to see how those companies implemented those technologies. And then I also get the opportunity to rely on my engineering and my tech technical background to make legal arguments on why something may infringe a patent or why something doesn’t infringe a patent. And so that’s something that I really have enjoyed. And I really enjoy talking to the clients about their technology, because they’re always so excited about it. And then, you know, you get someone that’s infringing, and they’re like, all they copied bang, and, but then the nuances of patent law, we have to articulate to them, which is sometimes difficult to do, because the words in a patent, specifically, the words at the end of the patent, they’re similar to the words that you’ve seen a deed for property, there’s only a few people who really understand how all those words operate what they mean. And articulating that to a client can sometimes be difficult. And also articulate, articulating that to an A chord, in understandable terms is awful, also very difficult to do, because not all judges are a scientist or engineers. That’s true. I never thought about that. Yeah, that presents a very unique challenge for most intellectual property attorneys. There are, you know, during patent litigation cases, the attorneys, the the the highest end, patent attorneys, or IP patent litigation, attorneys that you’ll come across, are rare, have a very unique skill set, and that they can take very complex subject matter. And just boil it down into a very simple concept. And that simple concept is, so that a jury can also understand it’s not only just the judge, but we had they have to make it so that the jury can understand what something means and how it’s applied to the product at issue. I think that is very interesting. And it is very challenging. You know, and if you really want a career where you’re going to be consistently challenged, that the IP litigation is absolutely something where that will happen. Wow. Well,

Katya Rowely 12:11
I think that that’s what’s really cool and novel about the legal profession in general, is that you’re explaining a lot of very, just like kind of niche subjects and words to the general population or to your clients. So that would just be completely heightened, and patent because that is something that’s out of most people’s scope is reading this kind of language, like engineering is just so specific.

Keith Driscoll 12:34
Well, and even even as the attorney, even with your engineering background, and even if you had years of experience in industry, the you these products that come across like even AWS, talking to the engineers, it takes some work to get us up to speed. Because the people that we’re working with are the, these are the cutting edge engineers of the world. And I mean, these people are brilliant, they create amazing inventions. And it is our job as it’s the job of patent attorneys to get that amazing invention down on paper. And then working with the patent office to find out okay, what is novel about this? And how do we how do we, how does this patent protect the novelty of this geniuses invention? And then from the litigation side, it’s okay, how do we make sure that someone else isn’t making selling or using this product in an unauthorized manner? And then the licensing IP attorneys, their job is how can we possibly help this company or this individual inventor to monetize the the work, dedication and ingenuity of that individuals or that company’s invention? And so it’s a it’s a very, it’s a multifaceted area that you know, you have to have a lot of high level and low level knowledge, you know, sometimes from a business perspective to

Katya Rowely 14:17
it must be really cool though to see these inventions just like personally, like there’s probably some cool stuff that like flops in front your desk. Oh, yeah. Yes.

Keith Driscoll 14:25
Yeah. I would love to disclose. Some of them, but some of the inventions like I have had, I think it’s been I think I’ve had three that I have seen where I have went, Oh, wow. That is really cool. Wow. And you can’t tell us about it. I can tell you broadly that at least one of them is in the golf industry as it relates to a golf club cool. In so I like golfing. I am horrible at golfing with My long golfing but talking with this inventor, it’s going to be one of the founders things I will look back on on my career thus far and and, you know, been an attorney for a relatively short period of time. But the way he describes his technology is just, it’s astonishing because the the concepts are simple but so complex, and it’s just a, it’s really been amazing to see how his product legitimately can help you in your golf game. Yeah. And in that industry, it’s so such a niche industry, that his slight variations in that slight improvement, it really makes a drastic impact on you know, how a golf ball travels when you hit it are, you know, for the amateur golfer? How can you How can it help you swing the club a little bit better? It’s been really interesting working on that, those types of

Katya Rowely 16:09
that is really interesting. My next question then is, how are you currently defining success for yourself?

Keith Driscoll 16:16
You know, I think when you’re in law school, most people will think that success is defined by why made partnership and you know, large firm, making a lot of money. To me, that was not where I as a person felt that I was going to feel successful, even in law school. Yeah. Okay. Because there’s, you know, for me, becoming an attorney was a little bit more than just, Hey, I’m out here to go make money. If you want to go make money, and you’ve got the intelligence, you can absolutely go do that. And then the legal career, but, you know, as I am in law school, and then coming out and teaching, and then also, just like my experiences in the legal profession, as far as what I saw was, that path is, is a struggle, you know, it’s, you don’t get to spend much time with your, your friends, your family, you know, if you want to, you know, spend every, you know, the dinners with your family, like, it’s, it’s really not a reality, that can mean that. And for me, that’s been something that I struggled with, and something that I was like, Okay, if I’m doing this, maybe I’m making a decent amount of money, but is it worth me not, you know, not seeing my daughter on a regular basis, and maybe just being able to spend a couple hours a week with her. To me, that wasn’t success. So Success to me in my career is going to be defined on was able to also be a good father, a good husband, a good friend. But even more importantly, was able to serve the profession and and really, almost apply, like the, you know, the all attorneys are under ethical obligations. And the question is, was I able to serve those fully? You know, was I able to provide a benefit to the public to my clients? And what impact that I have when I left? Did I just sit there and make money and serve, you know, other profiteering efforts? Even if they are legitimate and completely legal business ventures? Or did I making an impact by serving someone who maybe was isn’t that doesn’t have the big Pocket Books and making a difference. And for me, that was where I was going to define success is finding a way to make sure that I did the most that I could with my career that I, I handled myself in the most professional and respectful manner. And that I have a relationship with my daughter and my wife 1520 years from now that I know is, you know, we love each other and that’s a good relationship. And to me, that is what is going to define success. Okay. Okay.

Katya Rowely 19:38
And so aside from like that advice, defining success and how you’ve defined it, what advice do you have for current and future law students?

Keith Driscoll 19:50
One of the biggest things that I think every law student should do is to seek out a mentor I would suggest seeking out a couple different mentors that you can keep in touch with throughout your career. I had the pleasure of having several, somewhere my colleagues in law school that might have been a year or two ahead of me. Some were attorneys that I talked to before law school. Some were attorneys in the firm’s I’ve worked with that are, you know, maybe five years ahead of me. And then there was the mentor that I had, who trained me while I was in law school. So I had the opportunity and pleasure to work in a firm that provided this training program for engineers, that were also in law school. And so in this training program, you would work on IP matters. And that relationship I am forever grateful for, for having because without it, I would not, I really don’t believe I would be where I’m at today. And I also don’t believe that I would have the same legal skill set that I have today. And so when you’re in law school, if you can find someplace to work, where you have an attorney who is well, you know, has the experience necessary, where they can teach you and you know, it’s a bit of a mutual beneficial relationship where you can do some work for them. And they can also take the time to teach you. That, to me is the best relationship or the best thing you could ever do for your career. And they don’t necessarily need to hire you either right out of law school, you know, it might be a clerkship, it might be even a volunteer opportunity. Those experiences are going to last you throughout your professional career. And I think in certain situations in your lifetime, they’re going to have an impact on you. And they’re also going to help you understand how and how you want to practice law. And then what types of law Do you like practicing? And what types of law Do you not like practicing? So getting mentors? That is, I think the the most important advice that could be given to a law student. And I just so happen to have that opportunity. When I was in law school, and I didn’t even realize it was kind of funny, because I didn’t realize the opportunity I had, until I was complete, I was out and practicing for about a year and a half. And then it dawned on me and I was like, wow, like, how grateful am I? And it was when the the? I think it was, it was about a year and a half, maybe two years where the associated class came in behind me in seeing how those the knowledge and skill set of those associates, versus where I was at just one year ahead of them Now, don’t get me wrong. You’re going from year one to year two, as an associate in any firm, you are going to learn a lot. Yeah. But what I realized was that the work that they were capable of doing, which was different than what I was capable of doing at that point in time. And I realized that where they were going to be at the end of their first year versus where I was at then was going to be slightly different. And the only difference was that I was given an opportunity that they just did not have, it was nothing against their ability or their intellect. Like most people that are in law school are very, very smart individuals. And so that mentorship really sets you apart. And I’ve also noticed that some of the other associates that I’ve worked with the ones that are generally considered exceptional. That is the one thing that they have is they have someone to go to, or they’ve had some other type of experience whether at a courthouse or or another firm that helps to set them apart from the the individuals who do not have that.

Katya Rowely 24:30
Okay, okay. And I think that’s what I really appreciate about UDM is their externship opportunities, they’re constantly throwing those at us. And I think that that is a really good way to. I mean, if people look for listeners that are listening, if people are nervous to reach out and kind of start those conversations with potential mentors, I think that the extra chips are a really good avenue for that.

Keith Driscoll 24:50
Yeah. And, you know, for anyone that’s listening, you know, please feel free to put my contact information out there if anyone you know, I’m happy to mentor myself. But if the area of practice that you’re looking to go into differs from what I’m doing, and your goals are different, at the very least, if I can’t provide you any, like advice or mentorship, I’m happy to see if one of my colleagues can. And you know that that’s a great start. And I sincerely mean that. And I’m sure if any of you are listening, and you don’t think I’m being sincere, please reach out to Kathy out because she will hopefully attest to the fact that you can reach out to me or she can help get you in touch with me.

Katya Rowely 25:36
Know that I will definitely put your contact information out there. And I really appreciate you coming on the show. Kate, this was awesome. And I’m so excited to hear this episode.

Keith Driscoll 25:45
Thank you very much, Kathy. I appreciated this as well.

Katya Rowely 25:49
And that concludes today’s episode. Thank you so much, everyone for tuning in as always, and be sure to tune in next week for law school life and beyond next episode of the leadership series.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai