Leadership Series Episode 28 with Devyn Olin
In this episode Katya is joined by Devyn Olin! Devyn is in her final year of the JD/MBA program at the University of Toronto, Faculty of Law and the Rotman School of Management.
Devyn graduated with a BA from NYU Gallatin School of Individualized Study. There, she dedicated her studies to exploring the nature of businesses and relationships in the context of the digital age, specifically narrowing her focus through the female lens.
Devyn completed an official Business Studies minor through the College of Arts and Sciences and Leonard N. Stern School of Business. She also served as Creative Director of Embodied Magazine, Gallatin’s Arts & Culture publication, from her Sophomore to Senior year, helping transition the publication from print to digital.
In this episode, Devyn discusses her journey to law school, her law school experience, taking part in virtual OCI’s and advice for future and current law students!
Katya Rowely 00:00
Welcome back, everyone to Law School Life & Beyond’s leadership series. My name is Katya and I am the host of this podcast. On today’s episode, I am joined by Devyn Olin. Devyn is a JD/MBA student at the University of Toronto. And I’m really excited to have her on because it’s always nice getting a fellow student on the show to talk about their experiences, what led them to law school, how their experience in law school is as far especially with Devyn how the joint JD/MBA program is for her. So with that, thank you so much, Devyn, for coming on the show today.
Devyn Olin 00:31
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so honored and flattered to be here with you.
Katya Rowely 00:36
Yay. Oh, my first question is always the origin story question. What made you decide to pursue a career in law?
Devyn Olin 00:43
The million-dollar question, what made me decide to pursue a career in law? So, I think to answer that, I will actually backtrack and maybe start about, I started talking more so about my path to law school. And for me, that starts with my undergrad program, which was at the Gallatin School of Individualized study at NYU. And the program was an individualized interdisciplinary Study Program, which allowed students to create their own academic major. And it really attracted students who are left brain, right brain thinkers, and my academic concentration was focused on how technology is really shifting and impacting the ways we do business, we interact with one another and form personal identities. So, the program was extremely unique in the sense that the courses were interdisciplinary in nature, and I was learning inside the classroom, but I also had the opportunity to participate in a lot of internships on the side for academic credit. So I went to Gallatin thinking I wanted to do fashion business, and the program was going to allow me to combine those two interests with a rigorous liberal arts and academic Foundation, which was extremely important to me. And the internships allowed me to start exploring the fashion industry from various perspectives. And I had the opportunity to hold various roles in different contexts. So I worked for an online editorial position, I worked for an e commerce startup, and I worked both as an intern and then full time after I graduated, a creative agency that specialized in digital marketing for fashion, beauty and lifestyle brands. Wow. And through those positions, I started to realize that I didn’t think that this industry and all of the things that I had thought that I wanted to do, were going to be things that I actually wanted to do. And it started to become clear that while it’s important, you know, to be interested in the subject matter and context of what you’re doing, I really felt that I wanted to feel challenged and intellectually stimulated and like I was growing a lot professionally and personally. And so, when I started to think about what my next move might be, while I wasn’t necessarily sure, long term, what I wanted to do career wise, I started to think clearly about going back to school as a strategic next step. And so that’s sort of how I landed on the JD MBA, I always knew I was going to go back to school, I never felt finished with school. And the JD MBA for me felt like a real natural extension of my interdisciplinary approach to learning, in addition to the fact that I knew it would be a great foundation. And I just think that to answer your original question, both why I want to pursue a career in law, but also why I wanted to go to law school is because I know that a legal education is an education that sets you up to take in, distill and synthesize information in new ways to approach problem solving, and take on challenges with a different mindset. It’s not just an education, but I think that it really trains you to think differently. And I not only notice a shift even after three years, three out of four years and myself, but I now working at a corporate law firm I’m able to kind of observe that thinking at play with the people that I work with. And you know, the people who have been at the law firm and practicing law for many years, it’s clear that lawyers just approach problems with a very optimistic and can do mindset and are trained to appreciate and look for the nuances and situations and that’s a mindset that I really wanted for myself and valued and thought would be a concrete missing link.
Katya Rowely 04:52
That’s a really nice like picture that you painted of like what a legal education is, I think I’m gonna remember this sentence when I’m grinding Through exams, because that was very uplifting that it uh, there was it is a means to an end like there is a definite benefit to this kind of an education. You’re absolutely right.
Devyn Olin 05:09
It’s something that I’m glad I painted a good picture of it, it’s something that I have to probably remind myself or say back to myself also, when I’m grinding through my exams, I think that even in the darkest moments, not to say that it’s so so dark. But even in the tough moments, I always know that I’m doing this for a reason and that the education is of such value. And so it’s it’s easy to kind of be in the moment. But also, it’s important to take a step back, I think and remember why you’re doing this and what the long term value is.
Katya Rowely 05:44
Mm hmm. And so then how was the transition from New York to Toronto? Like, how long did you take? Did you take a lot of time in between your undergrad and coming into the into law school? Or did you go right immediately into it.
Devyn Olin 05:59
So I took a year off in between, and I spent most of that year in New York, I was working full time in New York at the creative agency. And I really, I loved being there. I just felt ultimately that it wasn’t what I wanted to do. But the transition was, it wasn’t bad. And I think that’s because it was really a choice for me. It wasn’t by force, it was something that I actively wanted to do and sought to do. And when I think about the transition, and what that looked like, even though it was a choice, and I think it was pretty easy. There are obviously there were big changes that took place not only going from working full time back to school, but also going from living in an apartment with a roommate and being extremely independent two, moving back home with my family, and all five of us under one roof. And who could have ever predicted that this pandemic would have happened, and we would all be very much under one roof on top of one another. But yeah, I think that moving back in with my family, even though it was part of the transition was something that was way more a blessing than it was a curse. Because you know, New York is an incredible place that can be so empowering, it’s forces you to be by yourself a lot and learn to enjoy being by yourself. But at the same time, it can be incredibly lonely and isolating at times. And so even just to be at home, with bodies on the other side of the couch, who you don’t have to talk to, but who are there. And not only who are there for me, I’m fortunate, like I love my family. They’re my people, they support me, they are my shoulders to cry on and my advice and my sounding boards and also unfortunate enough to like have dinner on the table at night and not have to go grocery shopping. And those are huge perks when you’re in one Owl and also in the first year of the MBA where you barely have time to breathe. So in that sense, having my family was for sure. A blessing as part of the transition. But I think the other part of the transition that I would speak to was just also the difference in academic programs that I had experienced my undergrad was, as I already kind of mentioned, very individualized and very interdisciplinary. And the program was intimate, the courses were seminar style, every kind of evaluation that I did was pretty much a paper which I could write on a topic of my choosing, I developed really close relationships with several of my professors who I still keep in touch with to this day and going from that to law school where I was an extremely small fish in a big pond and in a program that was far more prescribed. And, you know, learning a language which felt completely foreign to me was definitely I think the biggest culture shock of the transition from and it’s not even a transition from New York to Toronto in terms of cities, it was just a transition like part of the transition from undergrad to law school. So I think that to me, sticks out the most but in retrospect, when I think about it, I think a lot of the independence that I practice and cultivated not just living in New York, but being in my undergrad program helped give me the confidence to approach what was a very hard transition academically with. Yeah, with a lot more confidence and knowing that even if I didn’t know what I was doing, and I still often don’t know what I’m doing, I know that I’m somebody who can develop processes and has, you know, a mindset of this is going to be okay because I will make sure it’s okay and I will get things done as and I will accomplish all that I need to in my own way in my own time.
Katya Rowely 09:54
That’s a really, really good point. Just having those experiences. being independent just gives you that confidence to know that But you said, this is going to be fine. I’m going to get this done. I’ve got it done before. It’s not pretty right now, but it will be fine.
Devyn Olin 10:05
Yeah. And it’s always when you’re in the moment, you don’t feel that way, necessarily all the time. But when I think back about each thing that was difficult for me. And each, obviously, each time you go through something tough and you get through it, it’s only another experience under your belt to then reflect back on for when you come to the next hard time. And you’re like, well, I got through the last one I got through the criminal law exam. So you got to get through the next exam.
Katya Rowely 10:36
Exactly. Yeah. And then how has the How is your experience been doing the joint JD and MBA?
Devyn Olin 10:44
My experience has been fantastic. I think that it’s been really great to do the joint degree. And to do them simultaneously. So I’m not sure if it’s, it’s like this at other schools, but at U of T, you do 1L and then you do your first year of your MBA, and then you do a combination of both for your upper two years. And I think that while it’s definitely a lot at times, and you’re you’re balancing a heavy course load, I think it’s for sure nice to have the balance of both at the same time as in the upper two years, because you really do start to see the synergies in the different subject matters that you’re learning. And I think, you know, in addition to law program is structured in such a way where you’re taking these semester long courses, and it’s much more of a slow burn towards 100% finals or 100% papers. And it’s also mainly independent learning and study. Whereas in the MBA, it’s constant deliverables. And it’s a lot more team based evaluation. So I think that, again, while it can be a lot to juggle, it’s nice to have the balance at the end of the day, because you’re, you’re forced to stay on the ball. And you’re also forced to consider what you’re learning in both places, and how they interact and relate with one another. I also think that I would be remiss to not mention the people. And I think, you know, the greatest part of being in this program is meeting all of these incredible people who are really interesting, diverse, bright, come from all walks of life, I have a I feel like I have a huge network. And it’s not just a network to tap into. But I think I just also have made great friends and people who I’m going to be able to have at my disposal for the rest of my life, which is incredible. And I’m so fortunate to have and i think you know, whether it’s from my first year of law school, or the first year of the MBA, or even in my cohort, JD MBA, dual degree peers. I’m really lucky to be surrounded by such talented, smart, cool, fun people. So I think that’s been for sure the highlight of the experience.
Katya Rowely 13:13
Okay, and how many people are in the joint JD MBA with you, and you’re you’re
Devyn Olin 13:19
in my year, I think there are around 25 of us. And if I’m not mistaken, it was the largest JD MBA class and the largest cohort of female JD MBA students that they’ve had, which I feel very proud to be a part of.
Katya Rowely 13:35
Yeah, that is awesome. Wow, wow. That’s really cool. And I think having an MBA makes you so much more marketable with a law degree as well, because you get the nuances of the business end. Because there is a business end to law that I think a lot of people don’t take into account. I’ve learned a lot from the guests that I’ve had on the show that they always mentioned the legal field as a service based industry. And people forget that and but it is a service based industry, these are clients that you need to take care of that they need to feel that they’re being taken care of. and with that comes How do you run your business? And so that MBA will be invaluable? I think, in your career.
Devyn Olin 14:09
For sure. And I think, whether it’s even the, you know, tangible subject matter whether the fact that I know what a bond is, or I’ve seen a balance sheet before and so when I’m, I’m working at a corporate law firm, and when I’m on a deal, not all of the terms are typical. Yeah, it’s not totally foreign to me. But I think even putting that aside, going back to what I said before about the difference in the way that the programs are structured, having the opportunity to work in teams versus independently is very applicable to a law firm setting where, you know, you are maybe a lawyer doing a lot of independent work, but you’re constantly liaising with your colleagues on a file and it’s a very social profession. And so I think that having opportunity to work in teams in school is also a value add to, you know, the just the pure JD degree.
Katya Rowely 15:07
Okay, and then my next question is Why did you or what prompted you to start the Law Film Society at U of T?
Devyn Olin 15:15
So what prompted me to start the Law Film Society? Well, I love movies, I’ve always loved movies, it’s very natural for me to connect with people about them, music, TV pop culture, it’s probably one of the first questions that I love to ask people upon meeting them. And I’ve particularly always loved movies that have law related themes, whether it’s legal thriller, courtroom drama, that kind of thing. My two friends and I met in 1L, constantly talked about and recommended legal films to one another. And during the pandemic, I became particularly invested in working my way through my list of films that I had yet to see. And we had talked about starting this club before, but we felt that during the pandemic, actually, it was a prime opportunity to start it because it was not only a club that we could run in a remote environment, but it was certainly a way to just stay connected with people during a particularly isolated time. We also thought it would be really nice for incoming students who we, you know, anticipated having a lack of connection. And we wanted to help be part of fostering a community for those students at the law school and give them a little bit of a taste of what we had experience in our first year. And so all those things, I think, are the reasons why we started the club. And it was pretty much just a natural extension of our, our own love of legal films.
Katya Rowely 16:49
Okay, and then so how does it work? Do you guys all watch movies together? Or, like remote? Obviously, how did you what are the logistics at this club?
Devyn Olin 16:59
Yeah, so we started the club, as I said, during the pandemic, and so we didn’t have the opportunity this year to have in person screenings. But we would pick a film and we would usually try and pick a film and center on one of the themes of the film. And we would follow up that viewing with an event. So we’d asked people to watch the film and come to either what was a book club kind of discussion of the film or an event of some kind. For example, we had a panel discussion on the film that traveled Chicago seven, which included one of our professors, and a judge and a member of the movement Defense Committee. And we also had a an event which consisted of Jeopardy and trivia based on Erin Brockovich, which is my personal film of choice. And we just, it was just a nice way for, you know, professors and students to come together and interact. That was, I think, one of our greatest takeaways of starting the club was having the opportunity not just to interact and meet new students interact with and meet new students, but to interact more casually with our professors, when you know, you couldn’t go to office hours in even if you could go to office hours, I feel like a lot of students maybe would be too shy to go to office hours, but still want it to have kind of form of relationship with some of their professors. And so it’s really nice to have this outlet to connect with some of the professors on a more casual level. And I think this coming year, we are hoping that we’ll be able to have some in person screenings because I think our vision overall for the club was to all gather around, watch the movie and have the event take place, whatever it may be immediately after a screening, which would hopefully involve popcorn and snacks, and beanbag chairs, or whatever else. We can get our hands on to make it you know, an intimate, cozy bed.
Katya Rowely 19:00
Or I was going to say you should rent out a movie theater and see if they’ll show you that would be great. That’d be so fun.
Devyn Olin 19:05
Such a good idea noted writing down after credit. Yeah.
Katya Rowely 19:10
I’ll just come there we go. Yeah. Yeah, that is a really cool a really cool club. That is awesome. And then so now do you have people like one l reps to L reps that you’re going to have to kind of fill those positions so it carries on beyond your graduation?
Devyn Olin 19:24
Exactly. So we had reps and every year we also had somebody helping out with social media this year. I think, going forward, we want to maintain the positions that we had but also perhaps bring someone on to deal with or to be I guess a treasurer of source and especially if we are hoping to have in person events which would involve a bit more budgeting and costing of funds. But yeah, I think that was also such a nice part of starting the club because we we had these reps who engaged in the different years and I think we were our own little community, um, it’s the greater community. And I hope that, you know, we were able to kind of be a source for them as much as I felt that they were a nice source of, you know, community for us.
Katya Rowely 20:15
I’m sure you were and that sounds like a really cool club. That’s awesome that you guys put that together.
Devyn Olin 20:19
Thanks. There’s actually a course that’s going to be offered in the fall reel. It’s called law and film. I mean, I haven’t found out what course I got into. But it was number one on my list, I felt like it was meant to be done is basically made for us. Yeah,
Katya Rowely 20:37
Yes, you need to have words with admin if you do not get into that course. I agree. So, can you also describe your experience with the OCI recruit?
Devyn Olin 20:49
For sure. So, I think I should preface this by saying that I participated in an entirely virtual recruit. So I, all of my insights will be coming from that perspective. And I obviously have no other base to compare it to. But I think that reflecting on the process as a whole, the anticipation was far more stressful than the actual experience was, I definitely invested a lot of time and effort to prepare for the process and during the process itself. But I think one of the best parts of the recruit is getting to meet and interact with so many new and interesting people. I obviously appreciated this even more so during the pandemic, when I was isolated from everyone. So having a week where I could meet so many new people at once was quite honestly refreshing. Yeah, I think another big takeaway about the recruit, in terms of overall experience was how much I felt a generosity of spirit and camaraderie within the community. I think I was blown away by how willing people are to spend their time to learn their perspective, advice, mentorship, I felt extremely supported by people that I had known, but also those that I had just met, who, you know, were just there for me and willing to invest their time to help me find my way. And so as a result, I feel compelled to pay that forward. And I think you know, that that speaks to the process, and honestly how enjoyable It is, in some ways, I think, in terms of learning. One of my greatest takeaways was that it’s important to take the time to reflect deeply on what’s most important to you when you’re applying to these firms, and what’s most important about a place where you might like to work. And then based on that, I think it’s critical to spend the time to come up with thoughtful questions, which will help you uncover the information you need to make your decision. And as a follow up to that, I think it’s important to be creative in the ways that you seek out information and to remain really observant. And I think originally, some of the more concrete aspects of the summer programs, were what I thought would help me distinguish the different firms. But I think it ultimately became clear as I moved through the process, that it was the more subtle and nuanced differences in the cultures, which were paramount for me. And I think I took a lot of care to watch how people interacted on zoom calls at social, the virtual social events, even how they communicated over email, hoping that by observing these forms of interaction, I might replicate, in some sense, what I might have observed when two people passed each other in a hallway. I think, you know, I also really got a flavor for the different firms in terms of how they handled the process. You know, were they transparent? Were the interactions that I witnessed, genuine? Were the events, casual, lighthearted fun? Was it clear that the lawyers were genuinely enjoying themselves, because I think it was quite transparent? When lawyers were happy to be there. Were excited to see their colleagues on the screen who they hadn’t seen in a long time. And those were the kinds of things that stuck with me, and ultimately helped me determine where I wanted to be.
Katya Rowely 24:43
What were some of the thoughtful questions that you kind of came up with that helped you kind of deduce that information that you needed.
Devyn Olin 24:53
So I think that you have to be, as I said, thoughtful about what you’re asking and strategic to about when and what you ask. But I also think you shouldn’t shy away from asking things that are genuinely important to you, for example, when I was going through the recruit, there was a lot of stuff going on in the news about the unequal pay for female lawyers on Bay Street. And it was definitely, you know, the elephant in the room, but something that I felt was extremely important to me to understand a firm’s perspective on what was going on and and what kinds of initiatives they’re taking to support female lawyers, not just in terms of compensation, but in terms of concrete action items to propel women forward in the workplace. And so during the infirm week, I would ask the lawyers, you know, what do you think about what’s going on in the news? And what kinds of things is the firm do to support its female lawyers? And I would ask that question, not only a female lawyers, but also a male lawyers, because it was important for me to understand everyone’s perspective. And I think that question was something that I, you know, was definitely not on my list of prepared questions going into OCI is I mean, it was very timely, of course, too, but I it was, it was beyond just, you know, the classic, like, how do you support female lawyers, it was really rooted in current events and what was actually happening on Bay Street. And I, I wanted to hear firsthand from, you know, the people on Bay Street about what their reaction is, and what the firm is doing to hopefully improve the situation moving forward.
Katya Rowely 26:43
Yeah, no, I think that that is a really good way to prepare for OC eyes is to just really think critically about what is important to you, and then going into the process with that lens, and just kind of picking up those, like you said, subtleties in different firms. And I think that’s awesome advice.
Devyn Olin 27:00
Thanks. I mean, I also think, you know, listen, and listen to what people are saying to you when you’re being interviewed, because as much as much as it’s an interview, it’s also a conversation. And I think that you’ll you’ll be surprised at how naturally questions come to you, too, when you are just listening to what people are saying to you in response, because you’re if you are a naturally curious person, you’re going to pick up on something that somebody’s saying and want to learn more. And I think you should never be afraid to go off the cuff. And I also think that those kind of questions are probably the ones that are most important to you, because they’re coming from a place of genuine interest.
Katya Rowely 27:38
Mm hmm. That’s awesome. And so aside from that advice, do you have any other advice for future current law students?
Devyn Olin 27:47
Sure. Even though I feel like I probably need to take my own advice. Still, I think I would, firstly say, reach out and connect with people. Because as I’ve alluded to, I think that this community is really warm. And I think people are really willing to lend their time to help. I think despite also the stereotypes that may persist, I have not experienced a cutthroat or competitive environment at law school or at the law firm that I’m working on. I think people are really open, eager to learn from and with one another. And I think if that’s not your experience, then the good news is that you are in a really big pond, and there are other fish, and that you will find people who, for whom that is their experience, or for whom, they wish that to be their experience. So seek out those people. I think, another piece of advice I would give is that you should expect to feel like you are an alien. Again, the good news is that you are surrounded by many other aliens. And I think that fear, nausea, anxiety, panic are all things that are on the menu with starting a program of this nature, you should be prepared not only to feel those things, but to learn a new language and to feel like a complete imposter. But that is the most normal and I can’t say that it totally fades although you definitely feel more comfortable over time. I think another piece of advice is to take good care of yourself physically, mentally, spiritually, in the ways that work best for you. And I think you know, for me some things that have worked are ensuring that I stay active, that I eat properly, that I get sleep that I get outside that I you know, I’ve tried to implement weekly rituals whether it’s honestly putting on a face mask twice a week, taking a bath, journaling, sitting down and listening to my favourite artist or the new album that came out, lighting a candle, making my space feel comfortable, and then carving out time for things that are important to you. And again, for me, that’s spending time with my family, going for dinner with my grandparents, seeing my friends, and also just making time for myself because in reality, that is something you have to make time for. And so I think my last piece of advice and related to that point, so you have to set boundaries, and you have to honor yourself. And you need to really develop clarity on what you want to say yes to and what you want to say no to and, and that’s true, not just for the program itself. But for all aspects of the journey. It was true for me when I was doing my applications, when I was going through the recruit, on a daily basis when I’m in class when I’m working on assignments, or when I’m, you know, applying for summer jobs. And I think this program, whether it’s law, or the JD/MBA is extremely rigorous, and no one’s going to set limits for you. And so this is something that I definitely am still learning and practicing. But it’s, I think, a huge piece of advice that I would give to others.
Katya Rowely 31:12
I think there’s excellent advice, just setting those boundaries. And I think your advice kind of boils down to just really knowing yourself and being introspective through the OCI process. And then just general advice, what you’re saying is, you really just need to take a second, figure out what’s important to you, and then advocate for yourself. And I think that that is awesome advice.
Devyn Olin 31:31
Thank you. And I think you summarized it perfectly. And you were, you must be a law student with that synthesis.
Katya Rowely 31:40
I have one more question that What is your definition of success? Like, what does success look like to you? Because I think that’s along the line of what you’re saying that you really need to be introspective about what’s important to you, and not kind of get caught up in the noise that is law school. So what does that look like to you? I guess?
Devyn Olin 31:58
It’s a very hard question to define. But I think my immediate reaction to what is my definition of success is that success is waking up every day and feeling fulfilled, and like I’m constantly learning. I never want to feel like I’m stagnant. I want to feel like I’m constantly challenged and adapting and growing, both personally and professionally. And I think that goes back to even my answer to your first question about what inspired me to come to law school, and it’s a desire to constantly better myself and challenge myself. And I see that as a state of success. For me.
Katya Rowely 32:56
Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was so nice chatting with you. I cannot wait to hear this episode.
Devyn Olin 33:03
Thank you Katya. It was so wonderful to meet you chat with you. And thank you so much for having me.
Katya Rowely 33:09
And that concludes today’s episode. Thank you so much everyone for tuning in as always, and be sure to tune in next week for law school life and beyond next episode of the leadership series.
