“Empathy is pragmatic.”
I met Galen Krumel when we interviewed him as part of a Job Portraits story on the Eventbrite engineering team. I was struck then by how intentional and inclusive the team was, and by how kind and thoughtful Galen was in particular. I had a hunch he was one of those people who was truly helping to shape a team, but in a subtle, almost invisible way. And since that’s a big part of what Leading By Example is all about, I wanted to find out more.
Miki: When I asked you for this interview, I shared the earlier Leading By Example interviews I’d done. I’m curious to know if anything from them resonated with you.
Galen: I relate to your story about getting more in touch with your authentic self. I can divide my life into two parts: the part where I was barely in touch with myself, and the current part where I am slightly more in touch. Right around the dividing time I had a relationship fall apart, which was difficult, and I did a fair amount of personal work. There wasn’t exactly an epiphany moment — it happened over time — but now I trust myself and my intuition more.
Miki: Had you ever thought about that shift in terms of masculine or feminine energy before?
Galen: Not whatsoever.
Miki: How did you think about it? I’d be happy to find a less loaded phrase than “masculine and feminine.”
Galen: For me at the time, I thought about it as being accepting of one’s self. Or loving yourself, as somebody put it to me once. I wasn’t always aware of it in the moment, but I began to note what felt right and to roll with it. If being myself meant slowing down or listening to what somebody else had to say, cool. Or if being myself meant pointing out to someone that they’re talking over people and being disruptive, then that’s okay too.
“I wasn’t always aware of it in the moment, but I began to note what felt right and to roll with it.”
Miki: Is there anything you do more of now because you’re more comfortable with yourself?
Galen: Uncomfortable things, like telling someone what they don’t want to hear, or potentially disappointing people, and generally being more vulnerable. I try to make it clear what I don’t know. That helps people see I’m not perfect and hopefully makes them feel comfortable, even if the overall situation is uncomfortable. That makes it much easier, and faster, to address problems head on.
Miki: When you went through this “transition,” let’s call it, were you in a leadership position?
Galen: No, this was a job before Eventbrite. My company had contracted with a consulting group to help to build a product, and I was embedded on that team. Our project manager had a lot of masculine traits, and personally, that was really helpful to see. He was very direct and action oriented, and something just clicked when I saw how well that worked.
I thought, “Okay, so in order to be successful in running a project, one needs to be focused on the end goal, and when some decision needs to be made, it’s okay to be the person who guides us in the right direction.” That was the license I needed, because I saw how it drove us to good outcomes. I’ve been doing that ever since, but in my own style.
Miki: How do those traits play out in your work at Eventbrite? Has your style changed since over time?
Galen: I came in as a software engineer. My initial role was partially to do development, but also to help the team have better practices. Initially I’d primarily focus on if the team was operating in an effective fashion. Later, it evolved to include how different teams interact. Are they communicating effectively or is everyone talking over each other? Fundamentally, working well together depends on interpersonal and communication skills.
Let’s say you have three different teams, each with five developers, working on a month-long project. If it turns out they never agreed on the point of the project — which can happen without anyone noticing if communication is poor — that’s insanely expensive.
“I feel like I’ve stumbled into a dream job. Basically, I help people interpret what other people are saying, and direct conversations toward big goals.”
Whether it’s technical communication, or personalities that aren’t matching up, or feelings-based stuff, there’s a real business case to be made for these things working well. And that’s what my role has mostly evolved into. For instance, if we set out company goals for the year, are the teams interpreting these goals correctly? Are individual managers? I feel like I’ve stumbled into a dream job. Basically, I help people interpret what other people are saying, and direct conversations toward big goals.
Miki: That’s a very cool job.
Galen: When you boil everything down, my job is about efficiency. We’re a business that’s doing fairly well, but we don’t have a lot of room to make mistakes. Our engineering team is a lot bigger than it used to be. If we do a bad job of marshaling and motivating that team, we’re going to be unsuccessful as a company.
“Our engineering team is a lot bigger than it used to be. If we do a bad job of marshaling and motivating that team, we’re going to be unsuccessful as a company.”
Miki: This comes back to an idea I talk about a lot, which is, “How you’re being is as important as what you’re doing.” It’s like you said: you can call a meeting, and even put a process in place for how to run the meeting, but if people aren’t actually hearing each other, it’s a waste of everyone’s time.
Galen: I’ve spent pretty much all morning and most of the early afternoon in meetings, back to back. In those four or five hours, maybe two or three times I noticed one person interrupting, or unintentionally talking over the whole conversation, and I had to politely say, “Hey, can you hold on a second. This guy was about to talk,” or “I hear what you’re saying, but I want to hear what she has to say.” Obviously I prefer when I don’t have to say that, but luckily it doesn’t feel like playing referee — it just feels like supporting elements of the work culture that I think are important.
Miki: You’re more like a facilitator?
Galen: Yes, that’s a better word than referee. My goal is that nobody is aware when it’s happening. I don’t want people to be like, “Galen is telling me to stop talking because he wants to hear another person talk.” I just want it to be a natural conversation, and sometimes that takes facilitation.
Miki: How do you help someone become a better communicator?
Galen: First off, if you have a sense of why they’re not being a good communicator, let them know. If I notice someone tends to shout over people, for example, we’ll have a conversation basically the moment I first see it happen. I’ll say, “It’s better overall for the group if all people have a chance to get a word in. I’d like to help you get better at being mindful of that.”
Miki: What does ‘leading by example’ mean to you? To me, what you’re doing is modeling good behavior. If you want people to communicate clearly, you work hard to do it yourself. Or if you want people to be respectful, then you yourself are careful to learn about each person’s voice and what they need to feel comfortable expressing it.
Galen: I like the way you put that because I haven’t yet drawn a connection between my role facilitating clear communication and my own tendency to be straightforward with people. To me, leading by example means, as much as possible, I demonstrate what we should all be doing. If we’re discussing ways to make sure everyone feels heard, then in that conversation I’ll work very hard to make sure you yourself feel heard.
“If we’re discussing ways to make sure everyone feels heard, then in that conversation, I’ll work very hard to make sure you yourself feel heard.”
But it’s more than feelings — you can build it into systems, too. For example, I was talking to the head of Account Management today. We’re trying to set up a desk where engineers can sit with that team for a few days at a time. I think it would be helpful for engineers to see how their tools get used on the front lines, and also for the account managers to have an easy point of contact. If they do a support call where the event organizer is flustered with the product, the account manager can turn to one of us and say, “Man that was difficult.” It’s like an empathy-building exercise.
Miki: Why is empathy important?
Galen: It just seems like an obvious thing that people should do all the time. We’re all working towards a common goal; but if we don’t know how our work is related, then it’s not a common goal anymore. In that way, empathy is pragmatic.
From a human sense, I’m here five days a week and I want to have some sense of connection with my co-workers. And I’m saying this as a deep introvert. I recharge by being by myself and not talking to people, but at the same time I recognize that it’s cool to talk to people, and we’ll run a better business by engaging and listening.
Miki: I love the idea that empathy is actually more efficient. To me that seems like a relatively radical idea.
Galen: Really? It’s completely bonkers to me that associating empathetic practices with better business operation would be radical.
Miki: Yeah, I think a lot of people recognize that, I’m just not sure how many people talk about it that way. We’re all steeped in the concept of UX research and understanding our users, but that doesn’t always get applied to the person sitting next to you.
Galen: I think this company has an advantage due to its genesis. Eventbrite was founded by a husband and wife team. Julia, our CEO, is a very empathetic person. She has helped raise awareness of the term and, I’m going to over-generalize a bit, but over the course of the company there have been a lot of women in leadership positions. I think that has helped. Some of the more feminine traits, like listening, they’re really respected, and that’s also why empathy is taken seriously.
Miki: What happens when people disagree? Does it look different from any other companies you’ve been at?
Galen: We favor acknowledging and addressing disagreement as quickly as possible, so they don’t fester. That means setting aside time to address it and to do so in a way that’s likely to have a good outcome. If you and I have a disagreement, or if you say something in a room full of people that offends me, you’re not going to hear about it in a room full of people. I’m going to pull you aside and say, “Look, we’ve got to talk about this.”
“We favor acknowledging and addressing disagreement as quickly as possible, so they don’t fester.”
For instance, I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago where a co-worker took a course of action that, when I thought about it later, I realized I didn’t like. A couple of days later we were discussing it. I had this feeling of extreme vulnerability, just because I was talking about my feelings. “You said this thing, here’s why I didn’t like it, here’s how it made me feel.” That is not what I’m used to in the professional world. But this person was extremely respectful and thankful that I said something. It felt like a more than just a work thing — it was a relationship thing.
