‘Let’s go back to the due process that we were criticising and make that work’
Sandhya Menon, a prominent figure behind #MeTooIndia, on where the movement stands and where she sees it going
Journalist Sandhya Menon has changed her mind about a few things since last year, when she came into the national spotlight as one of the guiding forces behind India’s #MeToo movement. After calling out three prominent journalists on Twitter herself and then giving other women a safe space from which to share their stories of workplace sexual harassment, she says the fight now needs to extend beyond social media, and towards making due process actually work.
Today, she is actively working towards bringing about cultural and legal changes to ensure safety for women at the workplace, including by spreading awareness through her journalism and conducting training sessions for corporate organisations and NGOs.
NewsTracker’s Sanjana Thandaveswaran and Sharin DSouza met Menon at her Bangalore residence, where in a candid interview she spoke about the successes and challenges of #MeToo, how her activism has affected her personally, where she sees the movement going, and the role of mainstream media in furthering the cause. This is the first instalment of a two-part interview.
What does it feel like to be a facilitator for other women’s stories on social media?
So, a year since that happened, I am not sure how I feel about it anymore. Because, at that point it had a sense of urgency. I wasn’t thinking that I was being a facilitator. I was mostly thinking that these stories need to get out there. I was happy to be that connect for women who did not want to talk about their experience on their own.
One thing that I really have changed my mind about is the way the stories were told. Even then I was uncomfortable with the very sharp details that some of the women put in their stories. I’d much rather say, “This sort of happened with this guy in this place” instead of just labelling someone as a rapist— because it takes away from the credibility. Having to deal with that was difficult. I was warring with myself, going between “I don’t think you should say that…” to “This is your story, say it the way you want”. That sort of balance.
I was conscious of the fact that I had some level of traction on social media. It was not like a million followers, but there was a presence and my voice was carried. I don’t think it ever struck me that I was doing something bigger than myself. You tend to go with the flow. How do I feel like to be a facilitator for that? I think it just happened. I mean, I had no active role to play in it apart from to just do this.
Looking back at the #MeToo movement after one year, how would you assess it? What has it achieved according to you?
So, this is the thing that I constantly yell at newspapers and TV about when they come back to us and ask, “How has it changed?” —do your work! Talk to corporates and ask, “Hey, has there been an increase in complaints? Has there been an increase in training? Instead of doing one every two years, are you doing once every six months or nine months? What is your frequency? Has that gone up? Has your methodology changed?”
THIS IS THE THING THAT I CONSTANTLY YELL AT NEWSPAPERS AND TV ABOUT WHEN THEY COME BACK TO US AND ASK, “HOW HAS IT CHANGED?” — DO YOUR WORK! TALK TO CORPORATES AND ASK, “HEY, HAS THERE BEEN AN INCREASE IN COMPLAINTS? HAS THERE BEEN AN INCREASE IN TRAINING?”
Many corporates now have just an online module, where everyone goes through it, clicks and answers a few test questions. I don’t really think this is effective. It might be effective for people who do it diligently but for others, it’s like we just need to finish this in 40 minutes. None of these questions are asked: “What have you done with the methodology of training, what have you done with the ICs [internal committees], have you trained the IC’s better?” I haven’t seen a single report on how things have changed.
So, talking from my own perspective, I have been doing awareness trainings for corporates, groups, and NGOs. In that process I tend to talk to a lot of people from corporates about how things are, and generally, the feedback is that they are doing bigger trainings, they are doing more trainings. So, my unscientific survey says that there is greater awareness, there are more conversations about sexual harassment and what it means. And, these are not easy conversations, right? Of course, the harassment part of it is a difficult conversation, but also when men turn around and state the objections that they have — “I’m not sure I want to hang out alone with a girl in a meeting room”, for example. So, those conversations, while they might be in smaller groups, they are happening. For me, that is encouraging.
That is one part of it. The other conversation is about women from marginalised groups. That’s come to the fore like never before. But, again, that’s on social media. I don’t see it spill over to other media apart from like a Wire or a Scroll that has that access to people on social media talking about marginalised groups. A lot of Dalit women are very active on social media and these people have reached out and have us write pieces for them. But, English is so little read. As far as I know, regional newspapers haven’t opened up that conversation. Still, it’s a start. If English-speaking, privileged women are talking about intersectionality and protection for women (and also other genders) from marginalised sections, it is definitely a step in the right direction. That’s one change that I have seen.
The other change that I think this movement has brought about is a little bit of fear, awareness where men are concerned. Men are thinking about consent. Men are talking about consent. Men talking about what happens if they are accused of sexual harassment, what are the implications of that. The conversation has just exploded around that. Now, whether they understand consent or agree with the idea of continuous consent, that’s a different thing. But the conversation has opened up.
THE CONVERSATION ABOUT WOMEN FROM MARGINALISED GROUPS… THAT’S COME TO THE FORE LIKE NEVER BEFORE. BUT, AGAIN, THAT’S ON SOCIAL MEDIA. I DON’T SEE IT SPILL OVER TO OTHER MEDIA APART FROM LIKE A WIRE OR A SCROLL…
The fourth thing that’s changed is that more women are aware of what to do when they have complaints. When I was 24–25 years old, the Vishaka Guidelines were in place but I had no clue — who do I go and talk to, what is a committee like, how do I file a complaint? Nothing. I just knew how to go to HR — because for any complaint you go to HR. Now I think a lot more younger women, even when they just start college, are aware of where they can take these complaints and how to go about it. I think that is a hugely important thing. Whether the men change or not, I think this is important that you can be empowered to register a complaint.
The fifth conversation that’s opened up is about personal responsibility, although that is still to gain a little traction among people. For example, if I have consensually sent a text or a picture to someone, how much am I responsible for what goes on from there? So, I’m not saying that I’m responsible for a guy behaving badly with me, but what is my next step? Does personal responsibility mean I go to HR and file a complaint saying, “Hey, without me asking for a text or a picture, he sent me something”. Does it mean that I talk it out with the guy because this was consensual? Do I go to the guy and say, “Hey, what you did was not great”. So, that conversation has just started to happen, which is also great because then that automatically makes us view women as adults with agency… and we are constantly fighting against being infantilised by society. So, here you’re being an adult and saying, “No, this is my responsibility.”
Finally, the change that I’ve seen — even though we’re all stuck — is people are now starting to think about how can we better the law, how can we have a more fleshed out POSH Act, how do we approach questions of false or malicious complaints?
One year ago, I was naïve enough to turn around and say, “No woman’s going to lie about this.” But I’ve seen three cases in the last year that were false. And for me, that is really heartbreaking because that really ruins the cause of rest of us who are making complaints that are legit. That is a good conversation to start having — what are the punitive measures if there is a false complaint? What are the punitive measures for an IC that hasn’t done their job well? Should there be punitive measures? So, there is a whole bunch of questions around the act and around the ecosystem of the ICs and the POSH Act as a redressal system. So, there is a conversation happening but the movement forward, I haven’t seen yet. I think it’s too early to say.
You mentioned that there is a regional disparity when it comes to women being able to voice their stories. In your opinion, what can be done to open those conversations?
One, I think English-language media needs to make inroads into those places. Not just the one odd story once a month saying, “Oh, this little village in Haryana did this”, but a regular beat. I generally think sexual harassment and safety of women has to be a daily beat in a newspaper, like politics is. We need more reporters in smaller cities and towns from regional newspapers, and more editors who are willing to put those stories out. I get the concern with what will sell and all of that, but there is a greater responsibility. Now more than ever that responsibility is huge.
I GENERALLY THINK SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND SAFETY OF WOMEN HAS TO BE A DAILY BEAT IN A NEWSPAPER, LIKE POLITICS IS. WE NEED MORE REPORTERS IN SMALLER CITIES AND TOWNS FROM REGIONAL NEWSPAPERS, AND MORE EDITORS WHO ARE WILLING TO PUT THOSE STORIES OUT
Another thing is, regional language media needs to start talking about these things in a less derogatory manner. They talk so badly about sexual harassment, it has to be better. I don’t know — how does it start? It starts with awareness, it starts with maybe more women in these spaces. Let’s go to schools and start talking to them about equality…not equality, I hate using that word. Let’s start talking to them about parity and respect. It has to start from there. But apart from that, the only thing that I can think of straight up is English-language newspapers consistently finding new stories that are outside urban centres, not just not one-off stories.
One perception of #MeToo is that it was an anti-men campaign. How would you respond to this? What can we do to change the discourse?
I don’t see anything wrong with it being an anti-men campaign if men were the ones doing the harassing!
Still, it is a criticism…
I get that. So, that’s what I’m saying, why is that a criticism? If men were the harassers, then why is that a criticism? Of course, I see the problem. Everyone thinks that we’re just out to “get” men, whether they’ve committed a crime or not — that we are anti-all men. I get that. But I don’t think it’s up to us to change that discourse in any great sense. I think it’s important for men to understand the fact that this is a serious concern for each and every woman that they know. Unless they’ve locked their women in their house — wife, daughter, mother, sister — every woman any man knows has faced sexual harassment of some kind or the other or will face it in the next few years, if she is very young.
Now, there is a criticism that men shouldn’t be changing their attitude only in the context of women they know. If that’s the only language men understand, and they can’t be empathetic to women in general, then let’s talk to them in that language — that of every woman being someone’s mother, sister, wife, daughter. I don’t think it’s on women to change that [anti-men] impression. I think it is on men to understand, “Hey, there is an issue here.” But that’s in an ideal world, right?
ONE OF THE REASONS I GET LESS CRITICISM FOR TALKING ABOUT SEXUAL HARASSMENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA — AND THIS IS VERY PERSONAL TO ME, AND I DON’T MEAN TO SOUND CONCEITED — IS I ACTUALLY HAVE A COMPLAINT…
If we want men to be allies, as much as I dislike that word, we need to first stop saying things like “men are trash” on Twitter. This makes me sound sympathetic to men and I’m not — I understand that most men are waiting for a chance to cut movements for women down to size and this is enough to say “men are trash”, which might be the truth for many of us. But the minute you say something like that, you’re not going to have them on your side. So, I think language is the first thing we have to take care of. This doesn’t just apply to statements like “men are trash” but in the way we talk about sexual harassment in general. I am not saying we need to police our tone; I’m saying, let’s stick to facts instead of painting them with a broad brush. It might seem fair to you and me, but that doesn’t help take the conversation forward and that doesn’t help men be sympathetic or empathetic to the larger cause of women. They can be sympathetic to the women they know but we need them to be sympathetic to all.
One way to change the conversation is to be more circumspect and sharper about the language… not this random adolescent anger that seems to dominate the conversation on social media. That’s got to stop. We’ve got to have sharper, cleaner messaging. The other thing is to actually go and file complaints. We were on social media because filing complaints didn’t work. But it was always about getting due process to work for us. This was to shake the system up and have them sit up and say, “My god, what are these women doing? Let’s look at our systems quickly.” So, now that that’s happened, posting accusations on social media, and talking about harassment on social media before you file a complaint, is not a good idea.
A year later, let’s go back to the due process that we were criticising and let’s agitate a little stronger to make that work. One of the reasons I get less criticism for talking about sexual harassment on social media — and this is very personal to me, and I don’t mean to sound conceited — is I actually have a complaint. It is with the police. So, I still get trolled, but not so much because the minute I say, “Hey, do you want a copy of my complaint?” they step back completely. So, you’ve got the law on your side, you have the right steps on your side. And while you shouldn’t be afraid of trolls and men who criticise your method of gaining justice, there is a certain way things work and you can’t fight that. So, have that on your side and make a complaint. Here I am speaking to women who have the privilege and the safety and the space to make those complaints. There are some women who don’t have that.
But for those of us [who are in safer circumstances], one of the ways to stop accusations about being “anti-men” or “you’re all against us” is to make the complaint. If you make the complaint, then the impression is that there is one guy who is a harasser so she’s made a complaint against him, and the things she is saying are about that guy and other guys who have done similar things. If you have a complaint, then you have a super armour on your side.
Read part 2: ‘The lack of a regular beat for women’s safety gives the message that it’s not important for the media’
