Mango Market 創辦人 Daffy Durairaj 作客 Solana Podcast 翻譯
前言
Daffy Durairaj 於 2021/11 作客由 Solana 共同創辦人 Anatoly 主持的 Solana Podcast，暢談如何進入區塊鏈開發的世界以及 Mango DAO 的未來。
本次錄音檔由 Mango 中文社群翻譯，由音檔較長且有諸多術語，為避免翻譯失真，我們特地保留原文供大家參考，這是一篇認識 Mango Market 的優質文章，值得一讀。
時間軸
00:28 — 緣起
04:44 — 關於訂單簿
10:20 — 創造Mango Markets背後的思維
15:38 — 從編寫智能合約到創立Mango
17:32 — DAO規模有多大？
20:01 — 發幣
29:15 — 風投(VC)與發幣
32:43 — 去中心化與搞定任務
34:55 — DAO將來會與大型科技公司競爭嗎？
40:43 — Mango Markets的下一步是什麼？
Anatoly (00:09):
Hey folks, this is Anatoly and you’re listening to the Solana Podcast, and today I have with me Daffy Durairaj, who is the co-founder of Mango Markets, so awesome to have you.
嘿，大家好，我是Anatoly，你們正在收聽Solana播客，今天的來賓是Mango Markets的聯合創始人Daffy Durairaj，能採訪你真是棒極了。
Daffy (00:20):
It’s great to be here.
很高興來到這裡。
Anatoly (00:22):
So origin story, how’d you get into crypto? What made you build Mango Markets?
來聊聊一切怎麼開始的吧，你是怎麼開始接觸加密貨幣的？是什麼趨動你創立Mango Markets?
Daffy (00:30):
How did I get into crypto? So, I started off really not wanting to get into crypto. I was really interested in algorithm training. I did that in college and did some competitions that I did well in, and I wanted to trade equities, but it turns out if you have not enough money, if you have a few thousand dollars it’s just not allowed. You’re not allowed to algorithmically trade. There’s a patent day trader rule, and I was infuriated and I was just looking around and I found Poloniex where you can do anything you want. The thing that actually hooked me first to Poloniex was the lending market because immediately as soon as I saw an open lending market, I was like, “Oh wow, I have to buy some bitcoin, and I have to lend it out.” And, Poloniex was all bitcoin, and then it gradually got into just the meat of it, which was algorithmic trading and everything about crypto seemed exciting, but I actually didn’t want to hold bitcoin. Poloniex was all bitcoin, but again, I think the government sort of pushed me in the right direction.
我是如何開始接觸加密貨幣的？噢，我一開始真的不想涉足加密貨幣領域。其實我對訓練演算法（交易）非常感興趣。從大學開始我就這麼做了，參加過一些比賽並且表現出色。我想進行股票交易，但事實證明如果沒有足夠的錢，像是如果只有幾千美元，這一套就行不通了，你不被允許進行演算法交易領域。我被一個叫做「專利日交易者」規則的激怒，於是我四處尋覓直到我發現了Poloniex，在這個交易所，你想做什麼都可以。
實際上，Poloniex最先吸引我的是借貸市場，當我看到一個開放的借貸市場時，我就想著，「哇哦，我必須買一些比特幣，而且把它借出去。」由於Poloniex 都是關乎比特幣，我隨著這點逐漸進入了核心部份：也就是「演算法交易」。關於加密貨幣的一切似乎都令人興奮，但我實際上並不想持有比特幣。Poloniex 則總是是比特幣，但再次地，某種程度上政府把我推往了正確的方向。
I was like, “Okay, I don’t want to hold bitcoin, I’ll hedge off my risk on BitMEX, but again, not open to US persons, and so I was kind of reluctantly holding bitcoin and thinking, all right, I have a few thousand dollars if things go bad in this whole bitcoin thing. I’ll come out okay. I’ll get a job or whatever, but just never got a job, just kept holding bitcoin and continue to trade crypto, and I did that for about five years. Then, I wanted to actually start trading on chain because I thought this was probably for a lot of the reasons that you built Solana, the censorship resistance, and the global liquidity of it, and the openness of it, the fact that you’re not excluding people that have a few thousand dollars. I wanted to build on chain and I was just not very bullish on a lot of things, so I kept going back to trading, and then I saw Serum DEX, and I was just hooked. I placed a trade and it felt totally natural and normal. It wasn’t like $40 and takes 20 seconds and you don’t know if it… And, then MetaMask was jammed and you’re like, “Oh, but how do I cancel this?” So, that was a long-winded way of saying I was a trader and then I saw Serum DEX and then I had to start building the tools that would make Serum DEX even more fun.
我當時的想法像是，「好吧，我並不想持有比特幣，我要把風險對沖掉，但還是那個老樣子， BitMEX不對美國人開放，所以我有點不情不願地持有比特幣，然後想著，好吧，如果比特幣出了什麼事情，我買了幾千美元，那就停損出場吧。我會找到一份工作或什麼的，但就是一直沒有去找別的工作。我只是一直持有比特幣、繼續交易加密貨幣，這樣持續了大約五年的時間。接著，我想開始真正的鏈上交易，因為我想這些可能是你建立Solana的理由：抗審查、全球流動性、開放性等等，實際上也不排斥只有幾千美元的人。我想把一切建立在鏈上，但我對很多東西不太看好，所以我一直回頭持續做交易，直到我發現 Serum DEX並為此深深著迷。我做了一筆交易，感覺非常自然和正常。它的交易費不需要40美元，也不需要20秒，而你不知道是不是⋯⋯交易送出後一陣子，MetaMask被卡住了，你會想，「哦，但我怎麼取消它？」囉囉嗦嗦說了這麼多，我曾經是個交易員，看到了Serum DEX後決定建立讓Serum DEX更加有趣的工具。
Anatoly (02:59):
That’s awesome. I got into it by trading. Basically, I set up like an Interactive Brokers IRA account, and that let me kind of bypass the rules.
這真是太棒了。我是從交易進入加密貨幣的。基本上，我開立了一個像是盈透證券的IRA賬戶，這讓我可以繞過規則。
Daffy (03:11):
Really?
真的嗎？
Anatoly (03:13):
With a very small amount of money. I think they probably closed these loopholes already. I wrote a bunch of stuff on top of their Java STK and started trading there.
只要花一點點錢就能做到。我想他們可能已經把這些漏洞堵死了。我在他們的Java STK上寫了一堆東西，並開始在那裡交易。
Daffy (03:22):
I remember I actually got started that way too. I did a bunch of stuff for their Java, and we can tell you we’re both programmers. We wanted to build this money machine. It’s so fascinating, and it’s a machine that-
我記得我其實也是這樣開始的。我為他們的Java做了很多事情，我可以告訴你我們都是軟體工程師。我們想建立這台賺錢機器。它太迷人了，它是一台機器 — —
Anatoly (03:40):
It prints money.
印鈔機。
Daffy (03:40):
It does things and it prints money. What more could you want? So, I got started with Interactive Brokers, but I guess the whole IRA thing… Because I was a college student, and so even talking to an accountant would take a huge dent out of my net worth.
它即能做事又能印錢，你還想要什麼？所以，我開始使用盈透證券，但我一想到整個IRA的事情⋯⋯因為我是一個大學生，所以即使只是和會計師談談都會大大減少我的淨資產。
Anatoly (04:01):
Totally, it’s all really not designed for… The whole financial system in trading in the US is designed to funnel retail towards an app like E-Trade or Robinhood, which takes a cut, and then sells that trade to somebody else, who will take a cut, and then 10 other people until it gets an exchange, and that’s how everybody’s protecting their neck. They’re all taking a little slice, and I think what’s cool about crypto is that even centralized exchange like FTX is 1,000 times better and less extractive of the users than anything in traditional finance, simply because they can guarantee settlement. Such a very simple thing.
完全認同，這一切設計都不是為了（讓你直接交易）⋯在美國，整個金融交系統設計成將散戶引導到像E-Trade或Robinhood這樣的應用程式，讓它們從中抽成獲利，再把交易轉售給其他人，這些人也會抽成，接著是另外10個人，一直到交易所為止，這就是人們保護自己利益的方式。每個人都從中分一杯羹，而我認為加密貨幣最酷的地方在於，即使像FTX這樣的中心化交易所，都比傳統金融中的任何東西都要好上1000倍，從用戶身上壓榨的少多了，就只是因為它們可以保證結算。就這麼簡單的一件事。
Daffy (04:49):
You feel it right from the beginning. You go to Poloniex in 2016, and it’s like, oh, you have an email, you have deposited bitcoin, and now you’re just lending to people. So, just talk about not being extractive. To see the order book through Interactive Brokers or Ameritrade or whatever costs you a lot of money and it costs them a lot of money to provide it, and I don’t think I’d ever seen an order book. This was my passion, this is what I love to do, and I’ve never actually seen it.
There’s that story of the blind men who are touching this elephant, and so I had kind of figured out maybe what the order book looks like, but then on Poloniex, you go there and you just see the order book and you see all the lights flashing and you’re like, “Oh, this is it. This is where the trades are happening.”
And, that’s free, and of course, a big part of Mango Markets as well is you can see the order book. That’s it, that is it, there’s nothing more, and it’s all on chain and all this stuff. So, in terms of not being extractive, it’s a really big piece of what motivates people to come in.
你從一開始就感受到了。你在2016年去Poloniex交易，這就像，哦，你有個電子郵件信箱，你存入比特幣，現在你就只是借給別人．關於剛剛談到的「別被壓榨」，如果透過盈透證券、德美利證券或其他方式查看訂單簿你會花很多錢，而提供訂單簿也花了他們很多錢，甚至我認為我從來沒有看過訂單簿。（訂單簿）是我的熱情所在，這是我喜歡做的事情，而我實際上也從來沒有真正看到過。
像是瞎子摸象的故事，我對訂單簿可能是什麼樣子有個模糊的概念，但在Poloniex，你在那只是看到訂單簿，你看到營幕閃爍於是你想「哦，就是這樣。這就是發生交易的地方。」而且是免費的，當然了，Mango Markets的很重要的一點也是您可以看到訂單簿。 就是這樣，就是這樣，沒有別的了，全部都在鏈上，這些所有這些。也就是說，在不被壓榨這方面，這是很大的誘因鼓勵大家來用Mango Markets。
Anatoly (06:02):
I don’t know if you ever tried to get data, real data. I wanted timing information when a bid comes in or when an ask comes in versus when it’s filled. How do I get access to it? Because when you get data from any of these places, basically it’s like a little better than Yahoo Finance, which is like every five minutes they give you a low and a high.
我不知道你有沒有試著抓過數據，真實數據。我想知道出價時、詢價與成交時的即時資訊。我要怎麼取得？因為當你從這些地方取得數據時，基本上它比雅虎財經好上一點，就像每五分鐘更新一次低點和高點。
Daffy (06:27):
I don’t know, did you ever succeed at doing that in Interactive Brokers?
我不知道，你有成功從盈透證券抓過數據嗎？
Anatoly (06:32):
No, I recorded some of it, but it just never had that fidelity and it always felt like a gamble. I’ll build some models and sometimes stuff would work locally against my simulations, but then whenever I would actually try to run it, I’d see that fills take a little longer than they should and all this stuff really feels like you’re not interacting directly with the trading system, that somebody when they see your order they’re like, “Well, maybe I’ll put my order ahead of yours or do whatever or slow you down a bit.” It just sucks.
沒有，我紀錄了一些，但從來不精確而且總讓我覺得像在賭博。我會建立一些模型，有時候模型在模擬和我的主機中跑得好好的，但是每當我試著把它丟到真實系統中運作，我會發現訂單成交需要的時間比模擬的時候還要長一些，所有的一切真的讓人感覺你不是直接使用交易系統，而是有人看到你的訂單，他們會說，「好吧，或許我會把我的訂單放在你的前面，或做些什麼，或者讓你慢一點成交。」 簡直糟透了。
Daffy (07:16):
It feels very opaque, it’s like a black box, and of course, this is all for people like me who are kind of looking on the outside looking in. So, if I had gotten a job at Citadel or somewhere, then I could probably see what’s actually happening, but the fact that the vast majority of people are going to look at it and not really know it’s actually happening, not everyone wants to see an order book. That’s an important fact, but there are a large number of people who need it to be a little bit transparent to be involved.
這感覺很不透明，像是個黑盒子，當然了，這都是為了像我這樣的人準備的，在外面看的旁觀者。所以說，如果我在Citadel或其他地方找到一份工作，那麼我可能可以看到實際發生的事情，但事實上絕大多數人看著它也不清楚實際上正在發生什麼，並不是每個人都希望看到訂單簿的。這是很重要的事實，但還是有很多人需要它，讓事情透明一點才能參與其中。
Anatoly (07:49):
What I hate about it is that there’s a lot of people that make a lot of money from you not seeing, that they’re in the business of information assymetry and fuck them.
它讓我討厭的是，有很多人在你看不到的地方賺了很多錢，他們利用資訊不對稱賺錢，去他們的。
Daffy (07:58):
So, it’s not a family friendly podcast, so it’s good. I was going to ask that. So, there’s a funny story on RuneScape. I don’t know if you’ve ever played RuneScape.
所以說這不是個能全家一起聽的播客，這很好。我正要問那個。RuneScape上有個有趣的故事，我不知道你有沒有玩過RuneScape。
Anatoly (08:17):
I played Ultima Online, which is I think similar vibes in the early days.
我有玩Ultima Online，我想這兩個遊戲早期給人的感覺很相似。
Daffy (08:22):
Yeah, so on RuneScape, just like on the point of no one being able to see anything, on RuneScape, also they had an order book because that’s the most natural thing to do, and I actually had to figure it out from first principles. I would place a trade and I would see that sometimes it would get executed and sometimes it would not get executed, then I realized, okay, if I place a trade for these water runes or something or oak logs or something, and I put the price really high it gets executed at some price that’s not the price that I said, and then I was able to form this concept of that’s the asking price.
I didn’t even have the terminology for this, and then I did the same for set the price to zero for a trade and now I found the bid, and now I can make a lot of money actually underbidding the best asker and overbidding the best bid.
是的，在RuneScape上，就像沒有人能看到任何東西一樣，在RuneScape上也有一個訂單簿，因為這是最自然的，而實際上我不得不從第一原則把它弄清楚。我會進行交易，會看到有時交易被執行，有時候不會，接著我意識到，好吧，如果我把這些水符文或其他東西或橡木原木什麼的掛上去賣，我把價格訂得很高，但卻不是在我訂的價格成交，於是我有了要價的概念。 我當時甚至不懂得這方面的術語我就做了一樣的事情，我把交易價格設成零，現在我找到了出價，現在我可以賺很多錢了，實際上是出價比最好的要價者還低也比最好的出價還高。
Anatoly (09:18):
So, you’re market making.
那你是造市商了。
Daffy (09:20):
Yeah, so it’s funny, I was reminded because you said there’s a lot of people who make a lot of money in you not knowing, and I was just minting money. It took me years to accumulate like 1 million gold pieces in RuneScape and then I was able to just 30X it in a month.
對啊，所以說這很有趣，你提醒我了，你說有很多人在你不知道的地方下賺了很多錢，而我只是在印錢。我花了好幾年在RuneScape中積累了大約100萬金幣，然後我在一個月內就翻了30倍。
Anatoly (09:46):
Too bad RuneScape is not a crypto currency. Whoever is running RuneScape, you’re missing a huge opportunity right now to just go full crypto.
RuneScape不是加密貨幣真是太可惜了。不管是誰在經營RuneScape，你現在都錯過了一個巨大的機會就是完全採用加密貨幣。
Daffy (10:00):
There was some talk about some NFT or something on Twitter. Somebody was trying to encourage Jagex, the company, to get involved in crypto, and of course, I tried to signal boost it, but eventually everyone fell in line.
Twitter上有一些關於NFT或其他東西的討論。有人試著鼓勵開發商Jagex進入加密貨幣，當然，我曾試著出聲強化這點，但最後每個（開發商Jagex）都回到最初立場。
Anatoly (10:17):
How did you end up with the idea for Mango Markets?
你是怎麼想到 Mango Markets 的？
Daffy (10:21):
So, I have to give credit to dYdX. It was like 2019 and I hadn’t really considered that this was possible. I was heads down writing, trading algorithms and trading crypto just kind of holding all of my wealth in bitcoin and I was borderline bitcoin maxi on that, and just seeing dYdX do it in those early days… Now of course, they’re way more successful now. Those early days seemed that you could do leverage trading on chain, and they kind of showed it as a proof of concept, which I just kind of started pacing back and forth like, oh my God, this is changing our worldview completely.
我必須感謝 dYdX。直到大概在 2019 年，我仍並不真正認為這是可能的。我埋頭寫交易程式和交易加密貨幣，我將我所有的財產都放在比特幣中，我幾乎可以算是比特幣基本教義派，看到 dYdX 在早期這樣（成功做產品）…現在看起來，他們更佳成功。那些早期的日子讓我們看到其實是可以在鏈上進行槓桿交易，他們把它作為一種概念證明來展示，我開始來回踱步思考這件事情，天啊，這完全改變了我們的世界觀。
Ethereum was slow and whatever, so years went by. Actually, maybe just like a year, and then I saw Serum DEX where I felt finally, okay, all the pieces are in play and also I wanted to market make on Serum DEX, but I really need leverage. I don’t really need leverage, it just makes market making dramatically more efficient and safer. Leverage is just this tool that people who are involved in the financial plumbing really need, and it wasn’t there. I was like, “Okay, this is the time and I have to learn how to code smart contracts,” which sounds like a very scary and daunting task, but it was not that bad.
以太坊總是很慢，感覺好多年過去了。實際上，可能就只在一年後，我看到了 Serum DEX，我終於覺得，好吧，所有的東西都湊齊了，而且我也想在 Serum DEX 上做市，但我真的需要槓桿。好吧 …我可能不需要槓桿，但它讓做市變得更有效率和安全。槓桿是個對於參與做市和金融的人真正需要的工具，但它並不存在。我當時想，“好吧，現在是時候了，我必須學習如何編寫智能合約”，這聽起來是一項非常可怕和令人生畏的事情，但並沒有那麼糟糕。
Anatoly (11:54):
The scary part was that you guys were building on a platform that was really rough around the edges at the time.
可怕的是，你們當時正在一個非常粗糙的平台上開發。
Daffy (12:02):
Well, no one told me that shit was really rough around the edges at the time. That was actually maybe important. You come in and there was nothing to do, this was August of 2020, things were not locked down necessarily here in the United States, but people kind of scattered. No one was hanging out in the major cities, they had kind of went to go live with their families, as did I. I fled San Francisco and went to the rural part of North Carolina. So, there was nothing going on and you just have all the time in the world and bitcoin is doing well, so that’s funding you in a way.
是阿，當時沒有人告訴我這個平台還很粗糙。這實際上可能很重要。你加入了，但找不到東西可以做，當時是 2020 年 8 月，美國這邊還沒有因為疫情封城，但人們保持有點分散。沒有人在留在大城市裡，大部分的人都回去和家人一起去住了，我也是。我逃離了舊金山，去了北卡羅來納州的農村。當時完全沒在做任何事情，有一大堆的時間，而且比特幣的行情也很好，所以這在某種程度上提供了資金。
Bitcoin is this big, or crypto in general, it’s all the people who bought it or own some crypto, as long as it’s going up, it’s kind of funding whatever zany side projects you have in mind. So, this is just a side project. Wouldn’t it be cool if I could access this part of the world or this technology? And so, that’s why chewing glass… You probably coined that term, I don’t know, that’s why chewing glass wasn’t so hard because that pressure to… You have all the time in the world basically.
比特幣…應該說所有的加密貨幣，所有購買它或擁有一些加密貨幣的人，只要它在上漲，它就可以為你想到的任何滑稽的想法或項目提供資金。所以，這只是一個副業或興趣。如果我能通過它接觸到這個領域或這些技術，那不是很酷嗎？所以，這就是為什麼咀嚼玻璃(指拓荒開發)…你（Anatoly）可能創造了這個詞，我猜，這就是為什麼咀嚼玻璃並不沒有那麼難，因為沒有壓力….你基本上有一堆時間。
Anatoly (13:30):
Basically, COVID and lockdowns were so boring that chewing glass to learn how to code smart contracts with Solana was like a reprieve from the boredom.
基本上，COVID 和 封城 是如此的無聊，以至於咀嚼玻璃來學習如何使用 Solana 編寫智能合約就像是從無聊中解脫出來。
Daffy (13:45):
And, I’ve heard you kind of say, okay, a bear market is when everyone is coding. To give the opposite perspective, I feel like a bull market, unlike much more chill, oh yeah, nothing really matters. Crypto is going up, it doesn’t matter what I do. The rent is going to be paid for, everything is going to be fine, might as well engage in high variance new ideas, new projects. In a bear market, I’m very I got to grind, I got to squeeze out a couple of more bips out of this trading algorithm because I got to pay rent. So, that’s the bullish case on bull markets.
而且，我聽你說過，熊市是每個人埋頭編寫程式的時候。 我在此提供一個相反的觀點，我喜愛牛市，因為無需要冷靜，就彷彿沒有什麼東西很重要。：因為加密貨幣正在上漲，我做什麼都沒關係。 可以不用擔心房租，一切都很好，還不如搞一些高挑戰性的新想法，新項目。 在熊市中，我必須擔心如何從這個交易算法中擠出更多的收益，因為我必須支付房租。 所以，這就是牛市的正向例子。
Anatoly (14:30):
That you can try something crazy. That is the point where people enter this space is in a bull market. It’s that they kind of start coming in droves because they’re like, “Everything is crazy and I can also be part of the party.” But, it’s hard as a founder to stay focused because you are in that high variance, high risk taking kind of mindset.
你可以嘗試一些瘋狂的事情。 牛市就是人們進入這個領域的時間點。 這就是他們開始成群結隊地進來的時候，因為他們認為，“一切都很瘋狂，我也可以成為派對的一部分。” 但是，作為創始人，很難保持專注，因為你處於那種高挑戰性、高風險的心態中。
Daffy (14:58):
There’s a trade off of during a bull market there’s a lot of things looking for your attention, and a bear market is very calm, or it can be. If you built up a lot of liabilities during the bull market, now you have to stay afloat during the bear market. Maybe it’s calm in the external world, but internally it’s not calm. You’re like, “I got to do X, Y, and Z today every day.” There’s that natural pressure.
牛市期間有很多事情需要你注意，熊市則是非常平靜，或者可能很安靜。 如果你在牛市期間積累了很多負債，那麼現在你必須在熊市期間維持生計。 也許外面的世界很平靜，但裡面並不平靜。 你會有各種想法，“我今天/每天都要做 X、Y 和 Z。” 這種自然的壓力。
Anatoly (15:32):
So, you decided to learn coding on smart contracts on Solana. How did you end up going from there into Mango?
那麼你決定在 Solana 上學習寫智能合約。 你是怎麼從那裡發展到 Mango Market 的？
Daffy (15:39):
Initially, it was called Leverum. Not it, there was just an idea and there was a command line tool where you could… The YouTube video might still be out there, and Max was out there somewhere on the internet and he saw it and he thought it was a great idea. And so, he reached out to me and we did some other things like speculative about a prediction market, and then we were like, “Okay, no one is going to build margin trading.” A lot of people are saying it, but it doesn’t look like if we just wait it’s just going to happen in the next couple of weeks or something. It’s probably we just have to build it.
最初，(Mango Market)它原本叫做 Leverum。他只是一個想法，有一個可用於交易的指令工具，之前的YouTube 影片可能還在，當時 Max 還在在網路上的某個地方，他看到那個影片，他認為這是個很棒的主意。所以他聯繫我，我們做了一些其他的事情，比如對預測市場進行投機，然後我們就想說，“Okay，沒有人會開發保證金交易。” 很多人都在討論這個，但看來我們就算等待別人開發，它似乎也不會在接下來的幾週內發生。我們可能需要來開發它。
Not we just have to, but we totally should. This is clearly a very important piece of the Solana ecosystem. So, we started building it. Mango was just we were thinking alliteration is good. Everybody loves mangoes, it’s a fruit that I have never heard of anybody who doesn’t like mangoes. It’s probably the high sugar content and Mango Margin was the idea, but then we got the domain Mango.Markets. It’s kind of evolved now. When you’re starting off with something, you have kind of a narrow scope. You’re like, “I just want to be able to borrow money.” And now, there’s this Mango DAO and people are talking about NFTs and drones. I’m talking about drones. I don’t know if anybody else is, but it’s just gone way higher and now I’m like, “I’m a humble servant of the Mango DAO.” And, that’s totally a normal thing to say.
不是我們必須這樣做，而是我們完全應該這樣做。這顯然是 Solana 生態系中非常重要的一部分。所以，我們開始開發它。芒果這名字只是我們認為頭韻很好。每個人都喜歡芒果，這是一種我從未聽說過有人不喜歡芒果。可能是因為含糖量高，而 Mango Margin 是我們的想法，但後來我們得到了 Mango.Markets 的域名。…現在有點進化了。當你開始做某件事時，你的眼界很窄。你會想 “我只是想借錢”，現在，有了這個 Mango DAO，人們正在談論 NFT 和無人機…。阿…其實是我在討論是無人機…我不知道其他人是否也有在討論它，但它現在變得非常廣大，現在我會覺得 “我是 Mango DAO 的一個謙卑的僕人”， 而且這完全是個正常的說法。
Anatoly (17:27):
How big is the DAO?
DAO 現在有多大？
Daffy (17:28):
How big is the DAO? That’s a good question.
DAO 有多大？好問題
Anatoly (17:30):
In humans
人數上
Daffy (17:31):
That’s like a philosophical question. In human terms, wow, again, even still a philosophical question. So, I think if you go to MNGO token, if you go to the Solana explorer and just type in mango or MNG or something, you can probably… I don’t know if they have a list of unique token addresses, so in some sense that’s the DAO, but in terms of the number of people who actively post on the forums and make proposals, that’s much smaller. I’m guessing there’s thousands of people who have votes, but the number of people who make proposals and add meaningful commentary on the forums is maybe 20 people, and it’s expanding pretty quickly.
這就像一個哲學問題。 用人類的話來說，哇，仍然是一個哲學問題。 所以…如果你去找 MNGO 代幣，如果你去 Solana 瀏覽器並輸入 mango 或 MNGO 之類的東西，你可能…我不知道他們是否有一個獨立的代幣地址列表，所以從某種意義上說，這就是 DAO，但在論壇上積極發文和提出建議的人數而言，這要少得多。 我猜有上千人有投票權，但在論壇上提出建議和添加有意義評論的人數大概是 20 人，而且還在迅速擴大。
I always see new people coming in. There’s also not just people, there’s the wealth of the DAO and the cultural reach of the DAO, the spiritual significance of the DAO, all of those seem like size if you ask how big is the DAO. You interviewed Balaji Srinivasan, and there’s this idea that he had on Twitter that was like a DAO should buy land in Wyoming and send a drone to circle it and this is kind of like a moon landing sort of kind of thing or some kind of significant breakthrough where the DAO is controlling physical objects in the real world. So, this is very exciting to me, but it has nothing to do with margin trading, it’s just something exciting that maybe in a bear market, I don’t know, I’ll push to get this done.
我總是看到新的人加入。不僅僅是新人加入，還有 DAO 的財富和 DAO 的文化影響力，DAO 的精神意義等等的…，如果你問 DAO 有多大，所有這些似乎都算是。 你採訪了 Balaji Srinivasan，他在 Twitter 上提出了一個想法， DAO 應該在懷俄明州購買土地並派一架無人機環繞它，這有點像登月之類的事情或某種意義重大的事情，讓 DAO 在現實世界中控制物理對象的突破。 所以，這對我來說非常令人興奮，但這與保證金交易無關，這只是令人興奮的事情，也許在熊市中，我可能會推動並完成這件事情。
Anatoly (19:23):
Do you want the control to happen on chain?
你想讓控制發生在鏈上嗎？
Daffy (19:25):
Yeah, I think that’s necessary. Maybe not the total control, but some kind of signal that distance… So, you can kind of think of Congress authorizes a certain thing and then the executive branch does it. If we could make that link be as automated as possible, I think there’s something useful there, at the very least something exciting and interesting, kind of like the moon landing where maybe there wasn’t anything useful, but it was inspiring for sure.
是的，我認為這是必要的。 也許不是完全控制，而是某種距離的信號…你可以想像國會授權某件事，然後行政部門去做。 如果我們可以使該連結盡可能的自動化，我認為這會是個很用的事情，至少是一些令人興奮和有趣的東西，有點像登月，可能沒有任何有用的東西，但它肯定是鼓舞人心的。
Anatoly (20:02):
So, the DAO, if you guys decided you want to do something with leverage and lending, and how you guys launched was really unique. I don’t even know if people did this in Ethereum. To me, this is the first time anyone’s kind of done this style of launch. Can you talk about the design and how you guys thought of it and what let you make those choices?
所以，DAO，如果你們決定要利用槓桿和借貸做一些事情…，你們發布的方式真的很獨特。 我甚至不知道有沒有人在以太坊中這樣做過這樣的發布。 對我來說，這是第一次有人做這種風格的發布。 你能談談設計這個的理念，你們是怎麼想到的，是什麼讓你做出這些選擇？
Daffy (20:25):
So, people early to Solana may be familiar with the Mango market caps and how that went, which somewhat argues the first NFT on Solana, and that was done pretty much sort of like how NFTs are typically done where there’s a mad rush to grab the caps as soon as possible and the price is swinging wildly and there’s a lot of people. Now, I think we put that together as an April Fool’s kind of thing, very quickly, and so it was great for what it did, but the experience from that was, okay, there’s going to be a lot of angry people. If you do it in this way where the DAO is raising funds, and this is the inception of the DAO, the DAO is raising funds for insurance fund, you probably don’t want it to just be distributed to the people who were the fastest to click.
早期使用 Solana 的人可能對 Mango Market 帽子 稍微熟悉以及它是後來如何發展的，這在一定程度上證明了 Solana 上的第一個 NFT，這與 NFT 通常在瘋狂搶購的情況下完成的方式非常相似，瘋狂搶入購買 ，價格劇烈波動，人非常多。 我記得我們當初是將它當作一個愚人節的玩笑而開發的東西，花了很短的時間去做，所以它達到了非常好的效果，但從中的經驗是…，好吧，會有很多憤怒的人。 如果你這樣做是因為 DAO 正在籌集資金，當時的 DAO 才剛成立，DAO 正在為保險基金籌集資金，你可能不會希望它只分配給點擊最快的人。
And, that was the idea. We probably don’t want that. It doesn’t seem useful, it seems like a lot of angry people, and a lot of frustrated people. So okay, so you take out the time component, you take out the luck component, and then you’re left with you kind of have this sort of auction that lasts 24 hours, but then what if X somebody comes at the last moment and dumps in a huge amount of money and raises the price for everyone? Everyone gets the same price. So, our design was we’ll have a withdrawal period or a grace period at the end, the remaining 24 hours where if you kind of don’t like the price, you can bail out. It had some flaws and I think we knew about those flaws from the beginning. We were like, “Okay, we just pushed to this game of chicken to a later point where someone can put in a lot of money to scare other people away and then they pull out at the last second. And that did happen, but it’s not clear if that was net positive or net negative.
就是想法。 我們可能不希望變成這樣。 這樣看起來不是好事情，好像會有很多生氣的人，和很多沮喪的人。 好吧，所以你去掉時間部分，去掉運氣部分，然後你就剩下這種持續 24 小時的拍賣了，但是如果有人在最後一刻加入然後投入巨額資金並讓價格大幅提升呢？ 每個人都得到相同的價格。 所以，我們的設計是最後會有一個退出期或寬限期，剩下的 24 小時，如果你有點不喜歡這個價格，你可以退出。 它有一些缺陷，我記得我們從一開始就知道這些缺陷。 我們想說..“好吧，我們只是把膽小鬼賽局的問題推到後面，讓人可以投入大量資金來嚇跑其他人，然後他們在最後一秒退出。這確實發生了，但不清楚這究竟是好還是壞。
Anatoly (22:28):
And kind of in summary, there’s this 24 hour period where people deposit funds in for a fixed supply of tokens.
總而言之，在這個 24 小時期間，人們將資金存入以獲取特定數量的代幣。
Daffy (22:36):
Correct.
沒錯
Anatoly (22:37):
And, then the period is over, and now everybody knows what the total amount in the pot is for the token and there’s kind of this price that’s created and then if you don’t like the price, you can withdraw the entire bid or as much as you want. You can only reduce your bid.
然後，這個時段結束了，現在每個人都知道池中代幣的總金額是多少，並且創建了這種價格，然後如果你不喜歡這個價格，你可以撤回整個出價或任何出價。 也就是你只能減少出價。
Daffy (22:54):
Correct.
沒錯
Anatoly (22:54):
But, you don’t need to withdraw the entire bid, you can just reduce it.
但是，你不需要撤回整個出價，你可以只減少出價金額。
Daffy (22:57):
Correct, yep.
沒錯 恩
Anatoly (22:58):
So, then that pushes the average price down at the same time, so for every dollar you take out, you kind of get a better price per token.
因此，這同時壓低了平均價格，因此你每取出一美元，你就會獲得更好的價格(代幣拍賣的均價下降)。
Daffy (23:07):
And, you see the price ticking up during the first 24 hours as more and more people are putting money in and then the price ticking down over the next 24 hours.
也就是說，隨著越來越多的人投入資金，你會看到前 24 小時內價格上漲，然後在接下來的 24 小時內價格下跌。
Anatoly (23:19):
I’m a huge fan of this setup because it creates a lot of… There was news, you guys made the news because it was almost half of all of USDC that was minted on Solana ended up in that smart contract. It was like 45% of it.
我是這種設定的忠實粉絲，因為它創造了很多(新聞)……很多新聞，你們上了新聞，因為在 Solana 上鑄造的所有 USDC 中幾乎有一半進入了智能合約。 好像是整個 Solana 的45％。
Daffy (23:43):
I remember actually because we saw the USDC on Solana was 700 million the days before and then it had climbed up to like 1.1 billion or I don’t know what the number was at the end, and there was 500 million in the contract at the end of the first 24 hours. That was not the intention.
我記得其實是因為我們前幾天看到Solana上的USDC是7億，然後攀升到了11億左右還是多少我忘了最後的數字，在第一個24小時結束時，當時合約裡有5億。 那不是本意。
Anatoly (24:05):
It’s like it was minted.
好像是鑄造出來的一樣
Daffy (24:05):
And honestly, I think you could appreciate it better from the outside than from my point of view for sure, and of course, I also could appreciate it better from the time distance, but that was not expected. We kind of knew that there would be a lot of money placed in the beginning and then money would go down. That was in all the documentation that we wrote, and that was expected and we had all these dev calls where everyone was always talking about it, and I was like, “Okay, come on. Literally, there isn’t that much USDC in Solana.” So, it can’t be that bad, but of course, I underrated the possibility that someone could just mint a whole bunch of new USDC and bring it in from somewhere else. It made the news and a couple of other projects did the same thing, and I wonder if maybe it’s a one time kind of thing. The game only works once. You can’t expect to scare people every time or use the tactic every time.
老實說，我覺得如果你是從外部的角度、而不是從我的角度來看的話，你會很感謝這一切．當然，我也可以從時間距離上更好地欣賞它，但這是完全沒有預料到的。 我們知道一開始會有很多錢，然後錢就會減少。 這些都在我們編寫的所有文檔中，這是意料之中的，我們進行了很多開發人員電話會議，每個人都在談論它，我就想說 “Okay 從現實面來看，Solana上沒有那麼多 USDC” 所以，應該不會太糟，但當然，我低估了有人可以鑄造一大堆新的 USDC 並從其他地方帶來的可能性。 它上了新聞，其他幾個項目也做了同樣的事情，我很好奇這是否是一次性的事情。 同樣的遊戲伎倆只能用一次，你不能期望每次都嚇唬人或每次都使用同一個策略。
Anatoly (25:10):
Maybe, I think a lot to be said, but there was no other way to go. Mango took it all, so there was no private round, they were never listed anywhere. This was really the only way to get it, and the anticipation of a project that was awesome, and from every other perspective is… What I always tell founders is that you should always raise the least amount for the highest price. The VCs kind of have more power than you usually because they have more information, they look at many deals, people come to them, they have the money, but it’s sometimes the founders have this asymmetry where they’re the only ones without equity. They’re the only ones without tokens and that moment is if you can get everybody at the same time to compete for that thing, then you’ve kind of created the symmetry there and you maximize the capital raise for the DAO, for the project, for the community, and therefore that actually is a good thing. You have more resources to build a vision.
也許吧，可能還有很多可以討論，但沒有別的路可走。 Mango （IDO）包攬了一切，因為沒有私募，他們從未在任何地方上市。 這確實是獲得代幣的唯一方法，並且對一個很棒的項目的預期，從其他角度來看是……我總是告訴創始人的是，你應該總是以最高的價格籌集最少的金額。 VC通常比你擁有更多的權力，因為他們有更多的資訊，他們研究很多交易，人們來找他們，而他們有錢．但有時候創始人有這種不對稱，(此刻VC)他們是唯一沒有股權的人、 他們是唯一沒有代幣的人，而當那一刻，如果（項目方）你能讓每個人同時競爭那個東西（股權代幣），那麼你就在那裡創造了對稱性，你可以最大限度地為 DAO 籌集資金，為項目 ，為社群，因此這實際上是一件好事。 你有更多的資源來建立一個願景。
Daffy (26:16):
Although, I’ll clarify, I think the DAO is still handing out a lot of tokens, so there’s still a lot of ways to acquire Mango tokens, and that was kind of the inception for the insurance fund. The DAO has been paying people out of the insurance fund, and so it’s been useful, but there’s still more tokens to be had. There is a slight private rounds and I totally understand why people do them, but like I said earlier, if you are in crypto for a while, and this the cool thing about bull markets, I don’t actually need money, I just need to pay rent and bitcoin has gone up 50%, so I’m solid.
不過，我要澄清一下，我認為 DAO 仍在分發大量的代幣，所以還有很多獲取 Mango 代幣的方法，這就是保險基金的起源。 DAO 一直從保險基金中支付給人們，它很有用，但還有更多的代幣可供使用。 私募這件事，我完全理解人們為什麼這樣做，但就像我之前說的，如果你在加密貨幣領域呆了一段時間了…，這也是牛市很棒的事情，我實際上不需要錢，我只需要 付房租，而比特幣已經漲了 50%，所以我很經濟狀況穩定。
And, no one was paid anything. There was just Mango tokens that were given to people and they were told the DAO values your contribution or this is the inception of the DAO, and everyone worked to build this thing. People worked without even the Mango tokens and sort of the tokens were given after the fact. I think it’s a valuable way to build crypto projects actually.
而且，沒有人得到任何報酬。 只是給了開發者 Mango 代幣，他們被告知 DAO 重視你的貢獻，或者這是 DAO 的開始，每個人都努力開發這個東西。 開發者甚至在沒有 Mango 代幣的情況下工作，而且事實上代幣是事後給予的。 我認為這實際上是構建加密項目的一種有價值的方式。
Anatoly (27:30):
I want more teams to try to totally from genesis this DAO first approach, but it’s really tough because you guys had such a principled view on how things should be done and there’s a lot of people out there that are offering money for that one thing. How did you guys have the discipline to just go stick with this?
我希望更多的團隊嘗試完全從頭開始採用這種 DAO 優先的方法，但這真的很難，因為你們對應該如何做事情有自己的原則性看法，而且有很多人為這件事提供資金。 你們是如何有紀律地堅持下去的？
Daffy (27:54):
We had a lot of discussions about all these things. We talked to VCs and we still do and we like all VCs actually. So, I think Satoshi, I’m not trying to draw a comparison to us to Satoshi or anything, but there is this beauty in that story and I think there’s a lot, maybe even the majority of bitcoin’s value at least to me… To me, I just love the narrative. I love the story of Satoshi, the pseudonymous founder who is one of the richest people on the planet right now. Obviously, they’re in a no VCs. This person wanted to not make a big fuss. It was kind of like this clockmaker prophetic person who just came and then left, built this thing and then left, and that’s such an amazing story.
我們對這些事情進行了很多討論。 我們與VC交談過，我們仍然持續有在這樣做，我們實際上也喜歡所有VC。 我想到中本聰，我並不是想將我們與中本聰或其他任何東西進行比較，但這就是這個故事美好的地方…，我認為至少對我來說，比特幣的價值很多，甚至可能是大部分。 對我來說，我就是喜歡這個故事。 我喜歡中本聰的故事，他是一位化名的創始人，現在是這個星球上最富有的人之一。 顯然，他們沒有VC資助。 這個人不想到處吸引目光。 有點像個鐘錶匠預言家，他來了又走了，造了這個東西然後就離開了，這是一個非常棒的故事。
There are these long, long payoffs. Maybe they take a while, but they definitely do pay off that if you’re not hurting for rent, again, I was in a position, all the other Mango devs were in this position as well where it was a bull market, we’re not getting eviction notices or something, we could kind of float the boat for a while. Just consider the longterm payoffs, consider the five year payoffs. Stories are amazing.
這些事情可能要很久很久才有回報。 也許他們需要一段時間，但他們肯定會得到回報，如果你沒有因為租金而困擾，我和所有其他 Mango 開發人員都處於在這個情況，而且這是一個牛市，我們沒有收到任何房屋驅逐通知之類的事情，我們可以讓船繼續漂浮一會兒。 我們就應該考慮長期回報，考慮五年回報。 故事一定會非常棒。
Anatoly (29:17):
The weirdest thing is that every good VC will tell you that you should maximize for the highest return. Don’t worry about the middle exit, or don’t compromise. Actually, imagine you’re taking over the world, what are the steps to get there? And, the risk don’t matter. Actually maximize for the high and this is the irony here is that I think this kind of fair launch, most distribution will probably result in overall longterm, better, and higher returns, but the risks that I always find is that humans are hard to organize and at the same time, cryptography is this new tool for organization.
It is what allows us to massively scale agreement and complex problems, really, really complicated problems. We can just click a button and vote and agree on that one and you know. You know that the decision was made, but I’m curious, do you see tension between the decentralization, kind of the disorganization of the DAO and getting shit done? I’ve got to build stuff.
最奇怪的是每個好的風險投資公司都告訴你該爭取最大的回報。不要想像中途退出，也別妥協。事實上，想像一下你要接過這個世界，有哪些步驟可以達成這目的？風險也不是那麼重要。實際上最大化報酬在這裡提有點諷刺，我認為這種公平啟動項目，大部分的分配可以帶來整體長期得、更好更高的回報，但風險是我總是發現人們很難在同一時間內組織起來，而密碼學是一個組織的新工具。
是密碼學讓我們能夠大規模的建造新的協議和複雜的問題，真的是非常複雜的問題。我們可以僅僅靠著點擊一個按鈕並且投票同意在那個，你懂得。你知道那個已決定好了，但我很好奇你是否看到去中心化、無組織式的DAO和把事情作完之間的緊張關係？我已經想要建造些東西出來。
Daffy (30:34):
No, 100% actually, on a daily basis actually. There was a podcast with the guy on Twitter that goes by Austerity Sucks and this was back in April. We talked about this and he brought up a similar point and he was, “Yeah, this DAO thing, it’s all a fine and dandy idea, but do you think this will work?” And I, to be honest with you, am skeptical, however it is always felt to me sort of a high variance idea, kind of like if you were in the 16th century Netherlands or the 17th century Netherlands and you were like, “Okay, we’ve got to get spices from India. How do we do it?”
And, you come up with a joint stock corporation and then the join stock corporation is everywhere and I don’t think anyone has really figured out how to do DAOs well or what’s the right mix, how do we communicate, how do we coordinate, all those things. I don’t think anyone’s quite figured it out yet. No one had figured it out like six months ago. I still don’t think we have figured it out, but if it works, the payoff is enormous. There is global coordination, there isn’t a jurisdiction. I imagine the DAO is controlling drones one day. It could be wild. So, even taking into account all of my skepticism, I was still like, “Okay, we should do the DAO idea.” Anyway, not just me, Max is totally on board with this and Tyler and all the other people who kind of built Mango Markets. But on a day to day basis, as of October 2021, now I’m thinking, okay, maybe what we need to do is have small teams that build things and then pitch it in front of the DAO and get compensation. So, the DAO is kind of the government and it subcontracts out to people. Maybe not like direct democracy rules everything and we’ll try that out and if that doesn’t work, we’ll try something else out, but try new stuff out quickly.
不，實際上是100%，以每天基準來看的話是每天都在進行。在Twitter上有一個播客，他的名字是Austerity Sucks，那是在4月份。我們談到了這個問題，他提出了一個類似的觀點，他說：”是啊，這個DAO，這是個很好的想法，但是你認為這可行嗎？” 說實話，我是持懷疑態度的，但我總覺得這是個高離散機率的想法，有點像是你在16或17世紀的尼德蘭(荷蘭)，你會說，「好，我們從印度獲得香料。我們該怎麼做？」
接著，你想出了一個股份有限公司，然後股份有限公司到處都是而我認為還沒有人真正弄清楚該如何做好DAO，或者什麼是正確的組合，關於我們如何溝通、如何協調等所有的這些事。我認為還沒有人完全想通。 6個月前沒有人想明白。我仍然不認為我們已經想通了，但如果它能行，這個回報可是巨大的。有著全球協調性，而無司法管轄權。我還能想像到DAO有一天會控制無人機，這可是很狂野的。所以，即使考慮到我所有的懷疑態度，我還是想，「好吧，我們應該做DAO。」 總之，不光是我，Max還有Tyler和所有其他建立Mango Markets的人也完全贊同這一點。但在日常工作中，從2021年10月起，現在我在想，好，也許我們需要做的是讓小團隊來建造東西，然後丟到DAO面前並獲得報酬。所以，DAO有點像政府，它分包給人們。也許不像直接民主統治一切，我們會試一試而如果不成功，我們會試些其他東西，但會迅速的嘗試。
Anatoly (32:45):
That’s awesome. This is actually a really good strategy to incentivize product development. Building an MVP, which means you’re the PM, and the implementer, the dev, and you go do all the work and here’s your management. It’s all done, just give me money.
這真是好極了。這實際上是激勵產品開發一個非常好的策略。建立一個MVP（最小可行性產品，minimum viable product ），這意味著你是產品經理，是實施者，是開發者，你去做所有工作而這是你的管理方式。這全都完成了，只需要給我錢。
Daffy (33:09):
And, there’s some maintenance tasks, so it’s not purely new products, so I’m thinking Mango V4, but also in the meantime, there are all these nodes that need to be paid for.
而且還有一些是維護工作，所以說不是純粹開發新產品而已，我在想芒果第四代，但同時還有這些節點需要支付費用。
Anatoly (33:24):
I think you guys will need to split. We called it KTLO, keeping the lights on work. You for six months, you’re on KTLO duty, and you get paid a salary effectively, and you just got to keep the lights on, but then some other folks are like, “Go build something that you can propose to the DAO and the DAO will fund it.”
我想你們需要分開。我們稱它叫KTLO，keeping the lights on work，維持燈光的工作，意即基礎建設維護。在6個月內，你在KTLO值班，你得到實際工資，你只需要保持燈光，但其他一些人就像是，「去建立一些你可以向DAO提議的東西，而DAO會資助它。」
Daffy (33:49):
I think that’s basically what we have coalesced on is that, well, some people should be doing KTLO and other people should be doing new things, building the new product, and it takes kind of the risk out. The DAO doesn’t have to pay for whatever stuff that I produce for Mango V4, but we both have some kind of incentive to be honest about it. If it’s clearly a huge improvement or even a very substantial improvement, DAO should pay me something because if the DAO doesn’t, then you can expect future builders to not go for it. And, we have these discussions on the forums.
People make good arguments like this. I think the average IQ in the Mango Markets forums is very high. I think probably higher than most legislative bodies. I’m just going to go out on a limb and just say that. Not ours of course, ours is obviously very high IQ, smart people in our government, but you know.
我認為基本上把我們聯合在一起的是，好，有些人應該做KTLO，其他人應該做新的東西，建立新的產品，這就把某種風險排除了。 DAO不必為我為Mango V4製作的任何東西付費，但我們都有某種激勵來誠實以待。如果這顯然是個巨大的進步，甚至是一個重大的改進，DAO應該給我些東西，因為如果DAO不這樣做，那麼你可以預期未來的建造者不會去做。而且，我們在論壇上有這些討論。
人們提出了像這樣的好論點。我認為Mango Markets論壇上的平均智商非常高。我想可能比大多數立法機構還要高。我只是要出去走走，說說而已。當然不是指我們的(國會)，我們的顯然擁有非常高的智商，聰明人在我們的政府中，但…你懂得。
Anatoly (34:55):
Do you believe five years there’s going to be a 30,000 person DAO. Imagine a tech company, 30,000 engineers, or 30,000 people, they got product managers, teams, layers of bullshit. Is there going to be a DAO that’s competing with a big tech company?
你相信五年後會有一個3萬人的DAO嗎。想像一下一家科技公司，3萬名工程師，或者3萬人，他們有產品經理、團隊、層層的廢話。會有一個與大型科技公司競爭的DAO嗎？
Daffy (35:16):
It’s legitimately really hard to figure out how this might look. The reason why I hesitate so much with the question of a 30,000 person DAO is I’m not sure it’ll look exactly like a corporation that we can say, okay, these are these 30,000 people. You might never be able to figure out who is part of the DAO and maybe that’s one of the benefits of the DAO. If I asked you, how many people are part of Solana, not Solana Labs, but Solana the community? It’s a little bit difficult to even answer, lots of people, various levels of involvement, and financial. Some people have a lot of financial stake until you don’t, but some people have a lot of financial stake and no involvement at all. It’s wild all over the place. Does Bitcoin look like a country or a corporation? I can even point my finger on what it is.
要想得出這可能是什麼樣子真的很困難。我對3萬人的DAO這個問題猶豫的原因是我不確定它是否會完全像一個公司，如同我们可以說，好，這些是這3萬人。你可能永遠無法搞清楚誰是DAO的一部分然而也許這就是DAO的好處之一。如果我問你，有多少人是Solana的一部分，不是Solana實驗室而是Solana這個社區？這甚至有點難以回答，很多人以各種程度參與，有財務方面上的參與。有些人有很多財務股份直，但有些人有很多財務股份而完全没有參與。這兒到處都很狂野。比特幣看起來像一個國家還是一個公司？我甚至可以用我的手指指著它到底是什麼。
Anatoly (36:20):
So, even LINE had a battle that had 8,000 people all coordinating over something and I think they have corporations within that game that are maybe probably span up to 1,000 I’d imagine. So, that’s people organizing using tech for a common goal without a job, without a structure that you normally have at a company. Linux was built by people organizing online. I think as soon as you have something to lose and in Linux and even LINE you start building up a virtual token, your reputation is a contributor to this thing and becomes a thing that we don’t normally think of as valuable in a monetary way, but it’s valuable to that person, but I definitely care about my ability to continue contributing to an open source project. So, where tokens I think can get there is if there is something of value being created by the community, some common goal that everyone is working on and that token is in the middle of it and is uniting and organizing it. I think that could scale as large as a corporation.
因此，即使是在LINE也有一場8000人的戰鬥以協調一些事情，我想他們在那個遊戲的公司可能會延伸到1000人。因此，這就是人們為了一個共同的目標，在沒有工作，沒有平常公司結構的情況下，使用技術組織起來。 Linux是由人們在網上組織起來的。我認為，只要你有一些損失，在Linux甚至LINE中，你開始建立一個虛擬的代幣，你的名聲對這件事是貢獻者並成為一個我們通常不認為在金錢方面有價值的東西，但它對這個人是有價值的，但我絕對關心我為一個開源項目持續貢獻的能力。因此，我認為代幣可以達到的目的是，如果社區正在創造一些有價值的東西，一些大家正在努力實現的共同目標，而代幣就在此之中且正團結和組織化這個社區。我認為它可以像公司一樣被規模化。
Daffy (37:45):
No, I agree with you. I just think it’ll always be a little bit hard to figure out how many or who is involved, just by the nature of it. I just think it’ll be always a little bit hard to figure out, but will 30,000 people be building on Mango or some DAO? You already know the numbers better, but we might even be approaching that with Solana. So, I’m not part of Solana Labs or affiliated with Solana in any way, but building on Solana, and also I have a financial incentive too, but also I have a reputation incentive and it feel like I’m part of the Solana corps or whatever it is, but I don’t know what it is. It doesn’t even exist. It’s not even a DAO. There isn’t even a DAO there.
不，我同意你的觀點。我只是認為，要弄清楚有多少人或誰在參與，總是有點困難，只是因為它的性質。我只是覺得總是有點難搞清楚，但3萬人是否會在芒果或一些DAO上建立？你已經比較清楚這些數字了，但我們甚至可能會因Solana而接近這個數字。所以，我不是Solana實驗室的一部分，也不以任何方式屬於Solana，但在Solana上進行建設，同時我也有經濟激勵，也有聲譽激勵，這感覺我是Solana團隊的一部分或不管它是什麼，但我不知道它是什麼。它甚至不存在。它甚至不是一個DAO。那裡甚至沒有一個DAO。
Anatoly (38:39):
Oddly enough, I feel the same way about ETH and Bitcoin even is that we’re competing with them.
奇怪的是，我對以太幣和比特幣有同樣的感覺，甚至感覺是我們在和他們競爭。
Daffy (38:50):
But, it all feels like we’re actually kind of a part of the same team and-
但是，這感覺就像是我們實際上是同一個團隊的一部分，而且 —
Anatoly (38:54):
This is the weird part that I think is going to be really interesting how it plays out because I don’t think it’s obvious to anybody what is crypto. Is it the token? Is it the coin? Is it the network? Is it the cryptography itself?
這是一個奇怪的部分，我認為這將是非常有趣的，因為我不認為對任何人來說，什麼是加密貨幣是顯而易見的。它是代幣嗎？是硬幣嗎？是網路嗎？是密碼學本身嗎？
Daffy (39:10):
It’s not the cryptography itself, so we can strike that one out.
這不是密碼學本身，所以我們可以把這一條去除。
Anatoly (39:14):
Are you so sure? I think it’s honestly the power that a person has to be able to make these very concrete statements that are unbreakable no matter how… That’s the math. The math behind it is what allows them to do them.
你確定嗎？我認為事實上一個人有能力做出這些非常具體的聲明，無論如何都是無法破解的…。這就是數學。背後的數學是讓他們能夠做這些事情的原因。
Daffy (39:36):
I don’t totally know the cryptography itself. I know basic 101 number theory stuff, but I remember going through my first programming class and coming up feeling just very powerful. I’d write stuff down and then it happens. Kind of like a king, actually, more powerful than a king in a lot of ways because I was writing these training algorithms and it was happening around the world in ways that probably a medieval king couldn’t imagine and crypto brings that to finance where things of actual value can be moved.
Mango Markets exists and you can go there and place a trade right now, but it was just somebody who wrote it. I was involved based on you can see the GitHub contributions, but it was just people who wrote it and that’s probably… We can maybe chalk that up to the cryptography.
我並不完全了解密碼學本身。我知道基本的101數字理論的東西，但我還記得經歷了我的第一堂編寫程式的課程，伴隨著的是一種威力十分強大的感覺。我把東西寫下來，然後它就發生了。有點像一個國王，實際上，在很多方面比國王的權力更加強大，因為我正在寫這些訓練演算法，它正在世界各地發生，其方式可能是一個中世紀的國王無法想像的，而加密技術將其帶到了金融領域，實際價值的東西皆可以被移動。
Mango Markets存在著而你現在就可以去那進行交易，但它只是某個人寫出來的。據你所見在GitHub的貢獻裡，我參與其中，但這只是人們寫的，這可能是… 我們也許可以把它歸結為密碼學的問題。
Anatoly (40:43):
So, what’s next for you guys?
所以說，你們的下一步是什麼呢？
Daffy (40:46):
There’s drones on the horizon. Yes, sometime in the future, but we have to do a lot of the nitty-gritty, roll up your sleeves kind of work. On Solana so far, there isn’t… Maybe a lot of projects are struggling with this, indexing all the data and providing it for people in a usable way because there’s just so many transactions. It turns out if transaction fees are really low, people just make a lot of transactions and they don’t think about it.
And so, gathering it up and displaying it in a useful format to people, that’s a very immediate term and then slightly medium term is sort of becoming the place where everyone does leverage trading and does borrow and lending, all the crypto natives. And then of course in the longterm, I would say it’s somebody like my mom should be able to store her money in Mango Markets and not think twice about it. It’s not a good idea right now I wouldn’t say, but that’s the goal. That involves a lot more social things than just technological things. That’s get it to a level where she can do it safely and feel comfortable and manage her keys, or even if she’s not managing her keys, have a solution for how the keys might be managed, that she’s not falling for scams, and that’s I would say my longterm goal.
地平線上開始也有了「無人機」。是啊，在未來，但我也必須做些瑣碎的、像是捲起袖子的那種工作。到目前為止，還沒有發生在Solana上…也許，有許多專案正在奮力解決，想為所有的資料建立索引並以一種可用的方式提供給大家，因為就是有著那麼多的交易。事實證明了如果交易費用真的很低，人們就會進行大量的交易，他們不會去想這些問題。
因此，把資料收集起來，並以有用的形式展示給人們，這是一個非常立即的極短期目標，然後稍微中期的是成為每個人做槓桿交易和借貸的地方，所有的加密貨幣原住民。當然，從長遠來看，我想說的是，像我媽媽這樣的人應該能夠把她的錢存放在芒果市場，而且不用再為這筆錢想第二次。現在我不會說這不是個好主意，但這是目標。這涉及到很多社會事物而非僅是技術事物。讓我們把它達到一個讓她可以安全地做，感到安心並管理她的鑰匙的水準，或者即使她不管理她的私鑰，仍有個關於如何管理私鑰的解決方案，讓她不會上當受騙，這才是我想說的長期目標。
Anatoly (42:09):
That’s awesome, man. On that note, man, really awesome to have you on the podcast. Great conversation. I’m always excited about what you guys are doing and how the community is building this ecosystem of its own, so really amazing. It’s serendipity that you guys started going on Solana, just really lucky to have folks like you in the ecosystem.
非常讚，兄弟。關於這一點，能有你來參加這個播客真的是太好了，非常好的對話內容。
我總是對你們所做的事情以及社群是如何建立自己的生態系統感到相當興奮，非常的令人驚豔。你們也是非常湊巧才會開始在Solana上面工作的，只能說十分幸運能有像你們一樣的人們在這個生態圈中。
Daffy (42:35):
Thanks a lot. It means a lot. This was really fun.
非常感謝。這對我意義重大，這真的很有趣。
🥭關於Mango Markets （鏈上FTX）
Mango Market 是建立在Solana 上的一站式去中心化交易所，提供存款、借款、交易、槓桿、永續合約等的服務．
https://www.mango.markets/
