Purecycles — How 3 Friends Built a Multi-million Bike Brand from Scratch
https://soundcloud.com/user-598415700/purecycles-masters-of-commerce-interview
A deep dive into how the founders of Purecycles (purecycles.com) took a College idea and turned it into a multi-million idea.
In this episode we dive into all of the nitty gritty details that we love on starting from an idea and getting that first shipment of bikes to now scaling one of California’s favourite bike companies!
Long time coming, but podcast with a fantastic brand – https://www.purecycles.com
Transcript Below:
00:00 Cameron Priest: Hi Michael. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for taking the time.
Michael’s one of the founders of Pure Cycles. In the midst of launching a new bike on Kickstarter, which is going awesome. So it’s electric bike, Volta e-bike. But to keep it simple, I’d love to get you to kinda tell us a bit about what you guys do and the founding story, as it were.
00:19 Michael: Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me on, Cameron. It’s really an honor, man, appreciate it. So, name is Michael, started Pure Cycles about six years ago in college in Madison, Wisconsin as a senior, with two of my best friends that I’ve known since kindergarten. So the original idea was that, we saw that college students had been riding a lot of used bikes, and then also had been just not even riding any bikes, because if they wanted to buy a new bike that looked cool, they had to go to a bike shop and spend anywhere upwards of $700. So the original idea was to create a $300 bike that looked really nice, and that was really easy to maintain. So we came out with the single-speed bikes that were kinda perfect for college students in Madison. And we just sold out of our first order of 165 bikes within those first two weeks. It kinda blew us away and realized that we had a real business while still in college.
01:09 CP: That’s interesting. Like… 165 bikes, 300 bucks a pop. There’s a few assumptions and a few jumps there. I know there are so many people out there that probably have thought, “I should start a bike brand,” or, “I should start a T-shirt brand.” But actually getting those first 165 bikes is a bit of a commitment, a bit of actually following through. How long did that part take of going, “Hey we’ve got an idea. We wanna get these bikes,” to actually finding the supplier, getting them into Wisconsin. What did that look like? I’d love to drill into that a little bit.
01:37 Michael: It was really quick, actually. We decided in September that we were gonna start a business. We just wanted to start a business doing something. We didn’t wanna go to any job fairs, like all of our other bodies looking for [01:46] ____ jobs of being consultants or something. So we decided in September, we’re starting a business. We started to brainstorm what businesses we could start. But we were both passionate about being outside and we loved riding our bikes around Madison. So then we started going on Alibaba and we were just looking for bike manufacturers, and we were just emailing bike manufacturers, bike factories over there and just saying, “Can we make a bike for $40?” Something crazy like that. And we just started learning more about the industry by talking to these manufacturers, and finally settled on one within 20 days. Showed them the bike, what we wanted the bike to look like, settled on a price, and then we went straight to a crowdsourcing site to create our logo.
02:31 Michael: So someone from Mexico City ended up creating our logo, which took another two weeks. We placed the order in the end of October, or something around there, for the 165 bikes which is a 20 foot container. And we got the bikes in by right around winter break, so that’s December or January of that same year. We made our first sale in January of 2011.
02:56 CP: That’s awesome.
02:56 Michael: So it was [02:57] ____ process. And we built our own website, one of my partners, my buddies, again from kindergarten, built the website within that time and hit the ground running. We went to, we just went showed these bikes to bike shops, just cold called and kinda cold entered each store.
03:13 CP: Okay, awesome. And so, may I ask, did you get the price down to around 40 bucks, or where was the… Do you remember how much? which is going awesome.
03:18 Michael: Yeah, I think that our bike, our first bike, was $67, right around there.
[chuckle]
03:24 CP: That’s awesome. So about 10 grand probably?
03:26 Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it wasn’t that crazy of an investment. It was definitely, for someone who…
03:31 CP: 10 grand for college kids is still a…
03:34 Michael: Yeah, yeah, it’s still like taking that leap of faith. And we didn’t know if it would take like six months to sell these 165 bikes. We thought we were gonna sell them online and that would be that, but since they sold so quickly and sold quickly even to bike shops, we just started to jump right in and learn more about the bike industry. Started going to trade shows and doing all that good stuff.
03:55 CP: And question for you, personally, I guess. Do you think that it was imperative for you to have your co-founders? Do you think it would’ve happened the same way if you’d been by yourself? I know that’s something a lot of people struggle with is…
04:06 Michael: Yeah. No, I think the… Having the team is extremely important. I think I had such a unique situation ’cause my two partners were my best friends, again, since kindergarten, so there was just complete trust there. And also since I’ve known them for so long, we knew that we each had different types of things to bring to the table. I’ve heard definitely horror stories of some people with their partner, and I think it’s hugely important. You can’t do everything yourself. The second that you can start already trusting someone to delegate work and everyone take control of their own little aspect of the business, it just helps you grow faster.
04:44 CP: I agree completely. I had two co-founders, one of whom was my older brother and it just, it’s a god send when someone you know just owns something that you don’t have to worry about. That’s great. So it sounds like the first bikes you sold to friends and family, and then maybe you sold to retail shops? Is that right?
05:00 Michael: Yeah. Yes, we put up our website and this was in 2011, end of 2010 so social media, there was no ads on social, it was like… It was just all free. So we were blasting our word out there that we had the best single-speed bikes out there, small company from Los Angeles, and starting college. We had a good story. Kindergarten friends, and then we just started to approach bike shops, just wheeling the bikes in. And bike shops didn’t have anything in like below 500 bucks, it just wasn’t a big focus for them. That’s kind of something that the mass market was taking control of, like the Walmarts and the Dicks and the Sports Authoritys and all those other guys that are selling mass amounts of bikes. So this was an opportunity for bike shops to start selling more units, and also reach more millennial demographic that they just weren’t hitting. They’re hitting that 40-year-old white dentist guy.
05:54 CP: [chuckle] Buying his road bike, yeah. With the overly tight, what do they call them, the bike pants, or whatever. [chuckle] So, low price point, obviously cool designs, and obviously you’ve got a lot of product selection now. But there must have been some hiccups or something that… Or everything was just kind of fell into place and you guys keep hustling or?
06:14 Michael: Yeah. For sure, there’s hiccups. The nature of just having a business where you have inventory is hugely difficult, with cash flow issues. Basically, we were just reinvesting everything that we had, that we made in profit, into just buying more and more inventory. So you run into cash flow issues like that, you also [06:33] ____ issues where the product was being made in China. And when you only have the ability to buy like 165 or 300, or pretty much less than 1,000 units at a time, you’re not really working with the best manufacturers right off the bat, and they don’t really care much about you. There’s not much like, there’s nothing you can do, no repercussions for these crappy factories if they sell you a bad bike and the bike comes all scratched up. It’s not like, you’re like, “Yo, send me 20 more of these for free.” You just don’t get it. So we had those issues until we found a good manufacturer. So there’s, definitely, there was always issues but you just find ways to work around it. And we just had such good timing and our branding was good that we were able to sell product that even was scratched or damaged. We just made it work.
07:22 CP: You mentioned two things there, cash flow and manufacturers. Have you solved those problems now? Cash flow continues to be a problem for a lot of businesses, especially, as you said, when you’re storing a lot of your capital in inventory. But have you guys managed to get bank financing or trade financing or support from, I don’t know the, any other organizations in that regard, or you’ve just got enough capital now that it’s not a problem?
07:45 Michael: No.
[chuckle]
07:50 Michael: Because of the nature of our envision and wanting to grow, cash flow has continuously been an issue over the past six years, but we were able to have bank financing almost the whole entire time. First, supported by, backed by some of our parents, which was really nice, that we were lucky to have that, and then now backed by the businesses as we were growing. But we’ve also raised two rounds over the past six years, but because we do sell to around 500 bike shops around the world, it just forces us to carry so much inventory.
08:24 CP: Yeah, wow.
08:25 Michael: We can’t… And because of the lead time, also most importantly, the lead time on these bikes is so big. Some of our best selling bikes, you order them now, it won’t be here for five more months. So that makes us hold a lot of inventory there that we were projecting to sell. That’s quite a burden.
08:47 CP: And can I ask, is it tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of bikes now? What sort of numbers are we talking?
08:53 Michael: Yeah, over the past six years, we’ve sold over 100,000 bikes.
08:56 CP: Awesome. Amazing. And they all go through your LA warehouse? You transship them in from China, come in to LA, and then you ship them to the world?
09:03 Michael: Another office and warehouse in the Netherlands, in Europe, and that business was started three years ago, so it’s a much smaller operation but it’s growing. So the majority of the bikes are currently are shipping out of the Los Angeles warehouse.
09:15 CP: I saw that. So you’ve got a Pure Cycles Europe now. And is that your wholly owned entity, and you’ve got a team there or are you using the 3PL?
09:23 Michael: Yeah. No, we have our own team. We were using the 3PL for the first two years and it was just really a nightmare. Overcharges and poor storage and lawsuits and just crazy stuff that was really holding the business back. So finally last year, we got our own warehouse and our own space. It’s been smooth sailing ever since.
09:45 CP: Yeah, that’s great. It’s a big commitment but to your point, no one is gonna ship the goods as well as you are gonna do it. Interesting. Okay. And you kinda mentioned a few problems, and I’m kinda curious. You obviously, you said you launched the e-commerce site in 2011 but… What sort of tech are you guys using to run the business? Your new bike’s pretty high tech in and of itself, but I’d love to kinda understand how you guys think about that. And you all seem pretty young, so you probably understand a lot of what’s out there. What are the kind of your go-to main tools?
10:11 Michael: Yeah, sure. All of our inventory, like our sales and inventory management, ERP, all that stuff is all handled by NetSuite, which is an Oracle cloud software. We’ve really jumped around with a lot of different things as we’ve grown. We’re also using Shopify for the e-commerce platform. Avalara to do our sales tax. We try to keep everything in the cloud. We try to not have any PC desktop type of programs running…
[chuckle]
10:40 Michael: To keep us really, be able to work anywhere, it’s really important for us. We’ve gone from using QuickBooks and using a whole bunch of different softwares that kinda plugged in and we had to piecemeal together. So now, using NetSuite has been pretty awesome ’cause it’s just accounting software, everything all in one, sales management, all everything in one, so you don’t have to be syncing your data across all different platforms. We use Google Docs very extensively. We use Basecamp a lot. Use Hackpad as like our internal Wiki. We’re using Slack constantly…
[chuckle]
11:18 Michael: And so that’s huge for just time consuming emails, interoffice stuff, that’s just been really nice. And even cooler with Slack, is to be able to monitor all your back channels from our customers so that everyone in the company can see how great our customer service team is being or how bad it’s being. So, I’m trying to think, trying to think of.
11:40 CP: And… Sorry.
11:40 Michael: Trying to think of what else we’re using, but that was a pretty good list.
11:44 CP: And I’d love to know more about… So, as I said, that’s pretty high tech. And you’ve also got the new electric bike, the Volta, and obviously that’s still on Kickstarter, I’m assuming it’s not launched yet, but I’m sure you guys are playing with your prototypes in the warehouse in LA. But are you guys engineers by training? I didn’t ask that when you said you were at university. But how did that come about? That is some pretty advanced tech by the looks of it, with the batteries and the iPhone app, and all that.
12:08 Michael: Yeah, yeah. The electric bike has always been something that we’re really interested in. Because the mission of the company is to get more people on bikes, and more specifically, is to get more people commuting by bike. And we are strong believers that the electric bike is very much a bike. And that soon, people will look at the electric bike as just a bike, and they won’t be seeing the electric part.
12:27 Michael: When that all happens, the cost comes down, so we’ve… It’s riding the electric bike allows you to go further and really use your bike as a real transportation replacement. So because we had that interest, we were just really focused on figuring out how we can make one. So for the past three years, we just were reading as much as we can, learning as much as we can, meeting with all types of consultants and specialists in the e-bike space. [12:51] ____ flying to Europe, going to EuroBike every year for the past six years.
12:55 Michael: Working with some engineers in Israel, that we made friends with. And some guys in Mexico, in motor manufacturing in Mexico City, that we went and visited. And then, just networking to make sure that we really understand this product before fully diving in and doing it. So it’s really been, it’s been a fun and frustrating process, I would say, over the past three years, ’cause it’s taken so long.
13:15 CP: Yeah.
13:15 Michael: But the final product that we finally came out with that launched on Kickstarter three, four weeks ago, or what was it, three weeks ago has been extremely rewarding. And we’re seeing great response to it. And it’s really fun. So, none of us are engineers, but we kinda try to think that way. And we’re just hiring the right people to help us, the specialists.
13:37 CP: And I noticed, obviously a lot of people think about Kickstarter as a place to launch a product. And usually, their first product, but obviously this isn’t your first one, but I noticed that you guys are guaranteeing that you’re gonna launch in 2017, which I thought was really smart. I’ve seen a lot of companies, and I’m sure we’ve all backed a lot of companies on Kickstarter, where the date has just slipped. And we’re not talking months. We’re talking multiple years. So that’s a commitment you’ve made, but do you think that you could only have done that because you’ve had this experience already, importing, getting these products into market?
14:07 Michael: Yeah.
14:07 CP: So you know that stuff well?
14:08 Michael: Yeah, definitely. It was really important for us to show people, right off the bat, that we were an established company. That we’ve been around for six years. That we’ve sold 100,000 bikes. And that we’re not just some company that… And that we actually have produced this prototype and that we’ve been riding it for the past year, and we’ve been working on it for three years. Instead of being just some company that has this cool idea, and that maybe they’ll make it. Like hopefully, their first manufacturing go about goes well. And we wanted to prove that we have relationships with manufacturers over there, overseas, so that was really important for us. And we’re extremely confident we’re gonna hit that date, that’s kinda why we put that out there. If we hadn’t been around for this long, I’m not so sure that that would be a promise that another company could fulfill.
14:58 CP: That was gonna be my question. Did you have any other concerns, or do you have any other concerns with something like Kickstarter? And, I guess, for other people that would be the concern, which is can you deliver on your commitment? But anything else? Or is it, do you think, otherwise, it’s just a plus plus?
15:10 Michael: No, no. Yeah, we’re not really concerned. We really have everything lined up.
[chuckle]
15:15 Michael: We just hope to sell a lot more before the period’s over…
15:19 CP: You’re at about 240,000 grand now, which is pretty impressive for a…
15:22 Michael: Yeah, yeah.
15:23 CP: That’s still a while to go, I think a couple weeks still on the campaign. We’ll definitely link to that in the show notes, as well.
15:29 Michael: Thanks.
15:29 CP: Yeah, of course. It’s funny, in Singapore, we had a lot of e-bikes, especially in the region, but they’re the very old school you’ve got the big battery hanging underneath the chassis. And these bikes are like 20 or 30 years old, some of them. It’s a very normal thing for a lot of the older Singaporeans to be riding these things around. But, yeah, yours looks a little bit different from them, a little more high tech. But… Cool, okay. Well, that’s awesome. And I know that on the… You’ve recently re-branded. I think you guys were originally Pure Fix, and there’s now been some change there now. I’d love to understand why you’ve gone through that re-brand. And also, you’ve touched on that, but you’ve also got a pretty cool mission and values. And I’d also love to understand where they originated from, and how that evolved.
16:13 Michael: Sure, yeah. So when we first started the company in college, we really just wanted to be really focused and say, “We’re selling bikes to college [16:20] ____… “ we’re researching and we found, we liked fixed gear bikes, and saw that they were easy to maintain and they were affordable. So when we were thinking of which name we were gonna choose, Pure Fix, using that fix name just made sense, ’cause people would know right away what we were selling.
16:35 Michael: And as we started learning more about the bike industry, we saw that were a lot of different segments of categories, bike categories, that had the same issues that we saw in college. That they were overpriced and that they only came in black, silver, and white, and red maybe. So we just started just to hit other segments. We started to make city bikes that were cuter and nicer looking and that were cheaper. And then, we started to make cruisers that were cooler looking. And then now, road bikes and other commuter bikes and…
17:04 CP: I love the glow in the dark one. I think that’s awesome.
17:07 Michael: Yeah, thank you. Thank you.
[laughter]
17:09 CP: That’s great.
17:10 Michael: So as we were coming out with these different models, we had people just… We were creating some confusion with people saying, “Your name is Pure Fix. But you have these other models.” And as for the past couple years, we were trying to [17:23] ____ fight this trademark issue of having other people have the Pure Cycles name, or using it in marketing. So we were applying for it, and soon as we finally got it approved, we decided to change the name. Because it’s still our goal to come out with more bike models. And really to being the… When you think of commuting by bike, or the perfect lifestyle brand of bike commuting, you think of Pure Cycles. And it’s way more than just fix your bikes. So that was the reason there. And then, the mission of the company is to get more people on bikes, and that really means a lot to us, more than just selling bikes.
18:00 Michael: And we prove that by really getting involved with our community. So we’re members of the LACBC which is the local bicycle advocacy group, and then with CALBIKE which is the California, the State organization, and then for PeopleForBikes which is a national advocacy bike organization. And we donate our time and money and product to making sure that more infrastructure is being built to make cycling safer, ’cause that’s really the biggest difference between the US and Europe, where people in Europe are using their bike as real transportation and in the US where people are nervous to ride their bike and just riding it for sport.
18:39 CP: Every time, I’m in LA, I’m reminded of that quote, “You’re not in traffic, you are traffic. Get a bike.” [chuckle] ’Cause as you know, [18:47] ____ worst in the world. Well, actually, maybe actually some of the Southeast Asian countries have worse traffic than LA, but it’s definitely up there. Jakarta and Manila and stuff aren’t ideally the… But you see a lot of bikes in this region as well, a lot of scooters, so I guess that’s a good thing. And I guess, just a few more freestyle kind of questions. How do you see Pure evolving? You mentioned, obviously, there’s a lot more bikes to be built, but is accessories, are there kind of other ambitions? Obviously, the e-bike’s a big leap of faith, but what is the 10-year plan?
19:17 Michael: Yeah, the 10-year plan, I think, is when people think of lifestyle bikes or biking for commuting or for transportation, they think of Pure Cycles. When people think of buying a bike and having the best bike buying experience and getting someone who they’re gonna learn from, whether it’s from our content, our blogs, our videos. Or who’s gonna have the coolest curated bike stuff online or in stores, they think of Pure Cycles. And I hope 10 years down the line, we’re helping change the atmosphere in the US when people think about biking, that it is for transportation. And as far as product goes, we’re gonna continue to create bikes that are affordable and that are comfortable and that look cool, so that people are interested in biking. And I think this electric bike model is, we’re just scratching the surface of this new electric, this kind of platform that I think is gonna transform a lot of things. And I’m super confident saying that when people think of electric bikes in five years, they’re, hopefully less that five years or 10 years, they’re just gonna be calling it a bike. Electric bikes are gonna get cheaper and the batteries are gonna get smaller, thanks to Tesla and all, everyone else who’s putting money into these electric battery fields, and I think it’s gonna really help us change people being able to ride their bikes more for transportation.
20:34 CP: That’s true. So you guys kinda get to wave, ride the electric and smartphone wave in terms of innovation and battery tech and mobile tech and stuff. That’s cool. I hadn’t thought about that. And, I was curious, you’ve obviously, you’re doing the Volta and you’re obviously not exposed to Europe, and you mentioned you’re going to trade shows like EuroBike and stuff. What do you think is the biggest requirement… You said you’re trying to impact the government and, or I guess working with the local council in LA and stuff, but do people want to see it change? I know you guys do, but like do the people who run the cities of the United States really care? I know… Sorry.
21:12 Michael: No, go ahead. Sorry.
21:13 CP: I was just gonna say like, I don’t know what one of your bikes weighs. What does the e-bike weigh, the Volta maybe?
21:18 Michael: Yeah, the Volta weighs 35 pounds, which seems if you weren’t in the market for an electric bike, it seems kinda heavy, but until you start realizing that other electric bikes are 50 to 60 pounds, you start to think, “Oh well, this is a game changer.”
21:32 CP: I guess the point of my question was more like, I’m gonna get in my car, I’m gonna drive myself in a one and a half ton piece of metal to work. Just me. Maybe sometimes I’ll share with my wife. Versus a 30, 40 pound electric bike. And we all know the repercussions of moving that sort of metal all around is very different between the two. So, yeah, I’m just curious. Clearly its an obvious change, but there’s a lot of things that need to happen. I think everyone wants it, I’m curious whether there’s enough actually interest at the top to make it happen.
22:06 Michael: Yeah. Last year I went to Washington, DC with PeopleForBikes, this advocacy group I told you about to lobby for some specific grants like this TIGER Grant and some other specific things to kind of just get the bicycle industry out there. So we met with staffers of people on the House of Representatives and some senators, and it was really interesting because it really did seem like most people did care. And then we met with some people who just definitely didn’t care.
[chuckle]
22:34 Michael: It’s kind of like this with any policy, whether it’s some people who believe in the environment and environmental causes that like there’s global warming, or some people don’t. It just like hit or miss, but we’re moving in the right direction, definitely. I think that, we’re definitely, the industry as a whole is making good change and we’re seeing more protected bike lanes being put it in. We’re seeing cities buying into more bike share programs. We’re seeing laws being changed, where cars are getting into more trouble if they’re driving too close to bicyclists, to cyclists. And we’re seeing stupid laws being repealed, like forcing someone above the age of 21 to wear a helmet, which seems counter-intuitive but you wanna just encourage people to ride their bike, and you don’t wanna have stupid tickets like that. So there’s definitely good momentum, going forward. It’s not going as fast as everyone wants, but cycling is always [23:35] ____ there’s been tons of studies that it increases business when there’s protected bike lanes on a specific street and it makes people live longer when they cycle and it’s healthier and all that good stuff. There’s just so many good things that cycling brings, but it’s gonna take time but it is moving in the right direction.
23:52 CP: It just makes for better cities. More livable, more human friendly. Cool. A few, quick fire questions, if that’s cool. I guess, any books, blogs that you read that have had a profound impact on you, or any kind of people or ideas that keep you going?
24:08 Michael: Sure, yeah. A really cool one that we make or have all of our employees read is Delivering Happiness by Tony Hsieh.
24:17 CP: Tony Hsieh, yup.
24:19 Michael: Just, we’re so big on delivering the best bike buying experience possible and delivering the best customer service possible. So that one’s really important to us, ’cause the cycling industry can get really intimidating and we wanna be kind of the anti that.
24:32 CP: Yeah.
24:33 Michael: And a book I just recently read, Shoe Dog.
24:37 CP: Awesome book.
24:38 Michael: Which is so, yeah, so good.
24:40 CP: Super [24:40] ____. I couldn’t… I love that quote where he comes out of the theater at the end and he sees Warren Buffet and Bill Gates, and he felt that kind of lack of self confidence ’cause he was only worth $10 billion and they’re worth… It’s just awesome.
24:53 Michael: Yeah, it was a good book. Just seeing everyone struggles, every business struggles, whether you’re Nike or whatever. Everyone goes through those points where you don’t know if you’re gonna make it, and then you just persevere and make it happen. So that, I really like that book, Phil Knight’s… Definitely have a new appreciation for the company.
25:13 CP: Yeah, he’s a rock star. And it’s funny, because when you read the book it kind of jumps, and usually you’re like, you just said from 1986 to 1992. What the hell did you do for six years? But he actually really talked about the struggle, which was awesome. Okay, if you could be the founder or the leader of any company in the world, which would you choose and why?
25:33 Michael: I don’t know. I like our company.
[laughter]
25:38 CP: Good [25:38] ____, yeah.
25:40 Michael: Super passionate about what we’re doing here. I love sports, I love being outside, I love cycling. I like the struggle we’re having and I like the success that we’re having, so I’m happy where I am.
25:50 CP: That’s awesome. That’s exactly, I guess, what everybody wants to be able to say. Cool, and I guess, is there anything that we can help with? Anything… Obviously, everyone listening should go and check out the Kickstarter campaign. And if you’re able, you should definitely look at it and see if you can buy one, or obviously check out the site themselves. I think the e-bike’s a bit more on the, a little bit more expensive than the rest of the bikes, but they’ve got a great selection. Anything else that we can share or ask of the audience?
26:17 Michael: No, just [26:17] ____ ride… I challenge you to go ride your bike.
[laughter]
26:22 CP: That’s awesome.
26:23 Michael: Yeah. If you’re going to do something within two miles, just ride your bike and try it. I bet you’ll enjoy it a lot more than getting in your car and trying to find a parking spot.
26:31 CP: No, I love that.
26:32 Michael: Or even [26:32] ____ one mile, just take that challenge and just try it.
26:35 CP: Go for a ride, I like it. [26:36] ____ there’s actually been a bunch, there’s been like three bike sharing companies open up in Singapore in the last three months, they’re all from China. So there’s literally a proliferation of these yellow and white bikes all over the city, and I’m sure no matter where you’re living there’s probably some sort of bike sharing program being set up. So if you haven’t got a bike, you could probably get one. There’s probably no excuse nowadays, and then of course once you enjoy it go, buy your own. But… Cool. Well, thank you so much for your time, Michael. I’ve really enjoyed it. I made a lot of notes and I may follow up with some questions later, but I’ve really enjoyed learning about you guys and hopefully everyone else does as well. Thank you so much for your time, and hope you have a great evening and I will talk to you soon.
27:14 Michael: Awesome sounds great. Thanks, Cameron, we really appreciate it.
27:16 CP: Thank you so much.
