Conversations with Women in Technology: Part One in a Series
The first in a series of conversations centered on women in technology sharing their experiences, lessons, and resources with one another and with the broader tech community.
Welcome to the first of what we plan to be a series of conversations with women professionals in the information technology sector. Our aim with this series is to create spaces for working women in tech where we candidly discuss their experiences, challenges, and strategies in navigating a career within a sector that is largely dominated by men. We hope that these conversations will not only serve as an outlet for women to share their lived experiences working in this field — and be useful to other women occupying similar professional spaces — but will also provide perspective to their male peers who are striving to be better allies. We feel that promoting discussions such as these can encourage more open dialogue around these important topics within our professional communities.
Paulette: I’m really happy to be here to interview some of the fabulous women at Mavenlink. I am Paulette Luftig, and I’ve been at Mavenlink for almost seven years. I went from being a web developer, in a very junior role, to the engineering director in our San Francisco office. I’ve been in tech for about eight years, and I’m excited to facilitate our conversation. I want to start us off with a question that helps you introduce yourself. Each of you can take a turn sharing who you are, a little bit about what got you interested in tech, and how it helped you make the decision to land here. Let’s start with Boo.
Boo: I’ve been at Mavenlink for almost three years now. It’s my first software engineering job right out of college. I honestly got into tech late in life compared to a lot of people in CS [computer science]. I started school in architecture because I loved math and art. I wanted that combo and I hated it! My sister said, “you should try CS. It’s pretty cool.” So I checked it out, and I loved it immediately. It just worked out.
Paulette: Thank you for the intro. Who would like to go next? Brittany?
Brittany: I’m Brittany, and I’ve been at Mavenlink for two years. This is also my first job right out of college. Like Boo, I did not start in CS. I always liked math and science, and I actually went into biomedical engineering. I didn’t want to be a doctor, but I wanted to help people. A couple of years in, I got an internship where I had to write a little bit of code in MATLAB, which is a language that is rarely used in professional software development, but I loved it! It was super interesting. My days would fly by when I actually got to work on the code. I started taking more CS classes and eventually got an internship as a software developer. Now I’m here!
Paulette: Nice, thank you. Aysha?
Aysha: I’ve been at Mavenlink for a little over two years and this is actually my second job in software engineering. I stayed for about seven years at the first company I worked for, and May marks my 10-year anniversary of being a professional software engineer. That’s really exciting for me. I was always interested in technology, but I didn’t decide to pursue a career in technology until I had to decide what I wanted to do when I got to college. And I thought, oh, I like computers. I’ll just major in computer science. I’ve been here ever since!
Paulette: Great. Thank you for the introductions, everyone. Being of the female gender, we do experience smaller numbers in our crowd. I’m curious to know, as a woman working in the tech sector, what have been some of the challenges that you’ve come up against in your career so far? Who would like to start?
Aysha: I was going to say isolation, because there aren’t many females in software engineering. I’m very much used to being the only woman in the room, and then also usually the only Black person in the room. So it just feels isolating. Sometimes you don’t have people that you could potentially connect with immediately that have some shared comradery. It can just feel isolating.
Boo: I agree with that 100% . Something else that I’ve experienced is the feeling that I need to go above and beyond for no apparent reason. I don’t want to give anyone any reason to doubt my abilities or my knowledge. I feel like I have to give 120% a lot of the time, which can be really exhausting. And I’m sure other people feel that way for other reasons, but I think being a woman in tech when there’s so few of us definitely adds to that feeling.
Brittany: I think I get underestimated. People don’t assume that I know what I’m doing. I remember in college, I was pairing on a problem with someone and at the end of it, he was like, “Oh, you actually know what you’re doing.” And I’m like, why is that surprising to you? Like Boo, I think that one of the ways I combat it is, for instance, if I’m pairing on a problem with someone and I feel like they’re underestimating me and they have to leave for a meeting, I haul butt to try to get it done before they come back. Then I can be like, “hey, I did this, I figured this out without you. I can hold my own.”
Paulette: That’s powerful, Brittany! Let’s continue on this topic a little further. Boo, I’ll ask you first. How do we manage these experiences? What can our male colleagues and managers do to support us more when we’re experiencing things like this? Are there examples of male peers in your world who are getting it right already? What does allyship look like to you?
“Sometimes when I feel like someone’s underestimating me, or not hearing what I’m saying, or not wanting to try out my ideas, I always wonder, is it because I’m not communicating well? Or is it because I’m a woman? And I think that’s the hardest part for me, is identifying when it’s my fault and when it’s society’s fault.”
Boo: I’m the team lead of five male engineers, and I’m really lucky that they are all wonderful. Something they do that I really appreciate is they always defer to me for certain decisions. Even if somebody in Slack or something says, “Hey, I’m pinging so-and-so on this,” because they don’t think that I’m necessarily in charge, my teammates tend to try to defer to me to make sure that everyone is aware that I am the one that makes the call in those situations. They build me up in that way and, I think that’s a great way to be an ally.
Paulette: Nice.
Brittany: I have a couple examples. One is an experience I had that was great, and one that wasn’t so great. About eight months after I started working here, when we were in the review cycle, I was talking to some male colleagues and they asked me, “how much are you making? What are you going to ask for your raise?” And I actually really appreciated the question because they were like, “Oh, I was hired around the same time at a higher pay than you. And I feel like we’re about at the same level of experience. You need to ask for a big raise.”
I really appreciated that we were able to have that candid conversation and that they were willing to stand up for me and say, “That’s not fair, let’s fix it. Let’s do something about it. I don’t want to be making more money than you just because I’m a male.” That was great. I think that empowered me going forward during review seasons to ask for more. I know men ask for more than women generally. Having that experience early on in my career really helped me.
I think another thing that our male allies can do, especially in mentorship positions, is always ask themselves the question when delivering feedback, “would I give the same feedback to a male mentee?” I’ve received feedback like, “hey, you’re maybe a little too assertive,” or, “you need to be more social and more talkative on the team.” And I’ve read lots of things that suggest this is often feedback that females receive that males don’t. So while some of it is perhaps valid–maybe I was being a little rude or standoffish on the team, and I want to know that– I want to know that it’s coming from a place of, this is actually a problem and not just, you’re behaving in a way that I don’t expect women to typically behave.
“I wasn’t too sure about what the coaching program was at Mavenlink, but I think it’s really great to have a touchpoint; somebody you can go to and have more than just a checkbox conversation with. I have trouble being open with people and on certain things; I’m very guarded about certain topics. So it’s still hard to really get into a mentoring relationship where I feel really comfortable saying, ‘Well, these are the problems that I experience as a woman,’ or ‘These are the problems I experience as a Black woman in America.’ It’s really hard to do that, at least for me.”
Paulette: Can we find ways for women to express themselves in the ways that work for them and it just be as potent and just as powerful? Aysha, you’d like to share?
Aysha: One example, maybe from those in the position to hire, is just to hire more women. If you want to show that you want women in tech and you want women at your company, hire more women. I think that’s a really great way. I actually like the experience that Brittany had, that someone actually, they were willing to be like, “Hey, you and I are the same skill set, and you and I should be compensated equally.” If we could somehow make sure that those are goals we’re setting as a company, and that those goals are being reinforced so that two people with the same set of skills are also making the same amount of pay, that would be great.
Paulette: Excellent. I’ll add one because from the place where I sit in the organization, I’ve learned a little bit about how our male colleagues need to support women as they’re advancing in their careers. And I refer to a TED Talk done by a woman named Susan Colantuono who did a bunch of research to discover why women are very heavily in the mid-sector of management in companies but tend to struggle to get above that and into the executive levels. What they’re finding in the research is that while men are given the business acumen, financial information, and the understanding that they need to progress into those higher levels, women often are not. They’re coached on different aspects of how they show up in their job, like building confidence and learning how to speak up more. If women were given the tools they needed, confidence wouldn’t be a problem because they’d have the tools they need. It’s something that even our own leadership should be challenged to consider as they’re working with all of us in our careers.
Another question that probably we’ve talked about at different times is this sense of imposter syndrome. Obviously, lots of people experience imposter syndrome, but sometimes this can be an experience felt more acutely by women. I’m curious to know, how has this experience of imposter syndrome, if at all, shown up for you in your career? How did you work with that? How were you able to address or resolve the situation? Aysha, why don’t we start with you?
Aysha: I’ve actually struggled with imposter syndrome early on in my career, obviously because I was new. You don’t know how much you don’t know coming into a job. You are like a fish out of water, but also it persisted throughout my career. I didn’t really know what it was until a few years ago, when I stumbled across an article on Medium, and it was about imposter syndrome. I was reading that and I was like, yes, this is exactly what I’m experiencing. Ever since I have tried to educate myself on what it is and ways to, I guess, combat it. One of the things that I like here at Mavenlink is that we have a really good feedback program.
Our coaches go out and get feedback from our peers on how we’re contributing, and how well we’re doing on the team. That feedback is super valuable because you can decide, oh, this thing that I’m doing, I’m doing really well, or these are areas that I need to improve on. And whenever I have the imposter syndrome sneaking up on me, I tell myself, Hey, Aysha, the things that you believe are not reality. I can say that with confidence because I can go back and review feedback that I’ve gotten from the actual people that I work with and not just fall into a mindset that I have that’s based on imposter syndrome.
Paulette: It sounds like the feedback allows you to override the messages from the imposter syndrome.
Aysha: Yeah. It’s like you have proof. Believe what’s real.
Paulette: Yeah. Thank you.
Brittany: I would say the feedback for me at Mavenlink has been instrumental in that as well. I had a lot of imposter syndrome, especially, because I didn’t even have a CS degree. So I was like, do they know that I’ve only taken two of the CS classes that everybody else here was supposed to take? I don’t know what that random word you’re telling me means [laughter]. But yeah, just like Aysha, getting feedback all the time that I was doing fine was really nice. And the mentorship program we have here was really helpful. I remember feeling like I was struggling and telling that to my mentor. And he said, “Honestly, the key to this is to remember that no one knows what they’re doing, and we’re all just doing the best that we can. You’re learning quickly and your colleagues think you’re doing well. I don’t think you need to worry.” That was huge. Feeling like I had a relationship with someone here that would tell me as it was and also was able to make me feel a lot better was really great.
“Something else that I’ve experienced is the feeling that I need to go above and beyond for no apparent reason. I don’t want to give anyone any reason to doubt my abilities or my knowledge. I feel like I have to give 120% a lot of the time, which can be really exhausting. And I’m sure other people feel that way for other reasons, but I think being a woman in tech when there’s so few of us definitely adds to that feeling.”
Boo: I can talk about some of my experiences with imposter syndrome. I also struggle with anxiety, so I think a lot of my imposter syndrome comes from that, and not just being a woman in tech. But I think a lot of times–for example, when opportunities come my way–I don’t feel like I deserve them. I think other minorities probably feel this as well. We try to improve diversity at our company and so therefore sometimes I feel like something’s rolling my way because I’m one of the few women here, so they need a woman to do something. It’s hard to know, was this really meant for me? Or is it just convenient that I’m a woman and maybe have this perspective? I think that can be really hard, but I completely agree with Aysha’s point about feedback. I think that has been huge in helping me get over that hurdle.
My teammates, like I said, are wonderful and very encouraging. Even small things–even if it’s not like a huge round of explicit feedback, just little high-fives here and there– can help. Just mentioning, “Oh, Boo is really good at this” in a random meeting, or other small things like that can help get you through the day. I think I’ve come leaps and bounds, but it’s still a daily struggle.
Paulette: Boo, what you said about sometimes feeling like you’re given opportunities because of your gender is an excellent segue to another question we have. As women in tech, I think it’s safe to say that there must have been times you’ve felt that your gender has influenced the way you are perceived and treated as a professional. For example, it’s not uncommon for women in the workplace to experience being ignored or dismissed. So in your case, you’re saying, oh, there’s this positive experience where I was handed opportunities. Have there been more like that, either positive experiences or other negative experiences that you’ve perceived are the result of your gender? How did you work with those experiences?
Boo: Something that comes to mind every once in a while is, if pairing doesn’t feel like it’s going well, it feels like maybe there’s just some disconnect, where we’re not meeting common ground here. Most of the time, it can just be a code style or a working style, but every once in a while, it does feel like there’s maybe this gender gap; maybe they don’t feel like I’m bringing everything to this pairing session. So just going above and beyond has often been my way of trying to compensate for that. But sometimes it can feel like, when I’m not meeting common ground with a male coworker, is it my gender or something else? It can be hard to identify, but it’s always in the back of my mind, at least.
Brittany: I really connect to that. Sometimes when I feel like someone’s underestimating me, or not hearing what I’m saying, or not wanting to try out my ideas, I always wonder, is it because I’m not communicating well? Or is it because I’m a woman? And I think that’s the hardest part for me, is identifying when it’s my fault and when it’s society’s fault. I think how you handle it is so dependent on what the problem actually is. And that’s something I really struggle with: knowing for sure that I need to say something like, “hey, you should listen to my ideas”, or if I need to work on my communication style.
Aysha: I’ve definitely experienced being ignored. It was extremely frustrating because I felt like it was almost like an organizational issue where, with me and my team, we knew exactly what we were doing. I pitched an idea, we’re all on board, and then someone higher up comes back and says, “Hey, actually, you shouldn’t do this idea.” They had a person in a managerial position sit down with me, telling me we should not pursue this implementation. It was super frustrating because essentially they took that whole part of the project and put it on another team. And then the other team did the exact thing that I had suggested! It was so frustrating. At that point, I didn’t know what to do, because I was honestly shocked and I was super disappointed. I didn’t know how to respond and I just shut down.
I’m still trying to figure out how to have a different response so that I stay engaged, promote my own ideas, and defend them. I’m still struggling with that. But yeah, I definitely experienced being ignored, and it’s not a great experience at all.
Paulette: I think you’re all speaking to pretty common themes. Whether it’s this concept of mansplaining, people telling us what we already know, or having opportunities that are literally taken away from us that were ours, to hold and to develop and be creative with. One of the ways that I continue to assert myself is through my communication skills and being able to, in that moment, speak to whatever problems emerge. It’s very challenging, and it’s a huge burden for women to constantly have to step in and have these kinds of conversations. It is a skill, and it takes a lot out of us. I really appreciate all of you sharing your perspective around these things that we can be adding to the cumulative conversation amongst everybody, so all of the team becomes more aware.
One of the ways that women have traditionally continued to support and level one another up is through mentorship. With the final question here, I would love to hear advice from each one of you to support other women who are finding their way in the tech world or looking for mentors themselves. What advice do you have for them?
Boo: I don’t know. I struggle with this question. I think it can be hard because in my experience, male colleagues have a natural way of finding that camaraderie, and that mentoring relationship can just spring up naturally. I think that’s been hard for me with male or female mentors. I’m lucky enough, Paulette, that you were my coach. I see you as a wonderful mentor, but there aren’t many female engineers at that level. You’re the one and only, and I don’t want to take up all of your time. But I was realizing other women that I look up to in our company are not necessarily engineers. Someone like Megan Bresnahan; she’s a product manager. I go to her for advice all the time. She’s very experienced just working in tech and working in a corporate world. Even though she’s not an engineer, she’s given me amazing life advice.
I think maybe expanding your boundaries of who you would consider to be a possible mentor and looking outside your own direct teams or department can be helpful.
Paulette: Great suggestion.
Brittany: I’ve been lucky to have some pretty good mentors at Mavenlink just assigned to me. I’ve had two mentors, and it takes me awhile to actually start to connect with them and get to the good conversation. Both of them have been male, so I think that that has had some impact. It’s just not quite as easy to connect with someone when we don’t have that base. I found that just trying to be as open and honest with them as much as possible has helped me grow that relationship faster to a point where it’s really comfortable and really useful.
Paulette: And then grow your skills faster?
Brittany: Yes.
Paulette: Aysha, What would you like to add?
Aysha: I was going to say that’s a hard question. I wasn’t too sure about what the coaching program was at Mavenlink, but I think it’s really great to have a touchpoint; somebody you can go to and have more than just a checkbox conversation with. I have trouble being open with people and on certain things; I’m very guarded about certain topics. So it’s still hard to really get into a mentoring relationship where I feel really comfortable saying, “Well, these are the problems that I experience as a woman,” or “These are the problems I experience as a Black woman in America.” It’s really hard to do that, at least for me. So I don’t have any advice. I do like Boos’ suggestion of reaching outside of R&D for your mentors. Natalie [Mitchell, Director of Product] and Megan are really awesome, and they always inspire me to be more open and forward with my opinions.
Paulette: Thank you for that. We can also look outside of our organization entirely and seek out mentorship relationships within LinkedIn and different places. If we find somebody that we are drawn to, just ask for their support. I went to a workshop once that was all about learning how to build mentorship relationships. You can meet with somebody one time, and they can mentor you, or you can have a longer relationship.
We’re coming to a close to the interview, but I would like to give everybody one last opportunity. Is there something you’d like to share that hasn’t been said yet that is meaningful to say now?
Brittany: I’m just grateful and happy to be given the opportunity to talk about this stuff and have a candid conversation, and that Mavenlink is open to having a candid conversation about this, because some of it can be hard.
Aysha: I agree. And although I’ve been working in the industry for over nine years, this is the job where I work with the most women. So I’m really looking forward to a future where that is not common. I want to see more women in tech. But I think Mavenlink is doing a great job.
Boo: I totally agree with both Brittany and Aysha. I would add that something I’ve struggled with that I’m still working on is trying to be myself. It feels like we tend to have to change who we are to try to conform to expectations, or try to improve our capabilities within the company. We might change our own behaviors based on our gender, or other factors. All the while trying to remain true to myself, and make sure I’m still bringing myself to work in a way that makes me feel comfortable and not trying to conform to any expectations. I think Mavenlink is a great place. They’ve been very welcoming to me, and I’ve appreciated every opportunity, this conversation specifically too.
Paulette: Well, thank you very much for being courageous, authentic, vulnerable leaders here at Mavenlink, and for speaking for us as a community. As small as we are, we are a strong group. Thank you for coming together today and sharing all of your thoughts with us.
