Have Times Really Changed?
A Metta Space interview with three executive leaders about sexual harassment, gender discrimination, and the change in our workplace
We like to think that times have changed. We want to think that our society is changing and improving. In the workplace, discrimination, gender inequality, and sexual harassment are starting to be phased out.
But while we like to think and say that, we can only sometimes be sure it is. Instead of stating facts and disclosing research, we wanted to investigate how times have changed — if so. We, therefore, asked three women who have been working in different fields for the last 20–30 years, who have risen in their ranks and started their own companies, what they thought.
Has the workplace really improved? Has the workplace become less hostile and less toxic? Has sexual harassment in the workplace really decreased over the last few years?
Metta Space: What was it like being a woman in a Directorate or Executive position?
Carmen Morales: I built a company with four other male partners. Very early on, I realized sexist comments were being thrown around, especially about the new female talent hired. This was disturbing since, as a company, we were dedicated to talent, but the men seemingly hired only based on looks — for women, that is.
Carmen Sanmartin de Castro: I was the only woman on the whole leadership committee. In that position, I had to listen to some sexist comments incident every week.
How good looking the new girl was, how one employee had better looks than another. And if I used my leadership role to give orders or assert myself, they made rude comments to me. All because I was flexing the leadership muscle I was now a part of.
Metta Space: Do you think sexual harassment in the workplace has changed in the last years?
Mariel Isakson: The harassment is less evident than it used to be. Before, it was more physical because there were fewer consequences. Now, it tends to be more subtle.
A new generation has also swept into the workforce that sees some things as harassment that a different generation might not. Thus, it is a matter of understanding these behaviors — this inter-generational difference. People in their 30s and late 40s continue to perpetrate more subtle harassment. Meanwhile, the newer generation sees this behavior as unacceptable in a working environment.
Carmen M.: As a young woman, I experienced a lot of help from my team, but this help would always be coupled with expected favors. I constantly had to find excuses and reasons not to be confrontative. I could not confront others — I could lose my job or be labeled problematic.
Carmen S.: In the last eight to ten years, there definitely has been a change. There are more people that tell Human Resources what has happened and more people who report.
Metta Space: Is there any incident of sexual harassment that you remember in particular?
Carmen M.: There were many types of situations with the typical touchy type of sexual harasser that would start talking badly about you and spreading rumors and gossip about you when you would confront him about his inappropriate behavior.
One particular story I remember was at a job interview when I was just 23 years old. My interviewer was relatively high in the ranks. We were alone in the building. As I left the interview and stepped into the elevator, he made an advance on me. I could not react; I was paralyzed. Imagine the impact that it had on all my subsequent job interviews.
Mariel: Regarding gendered discrimination, my boss told me she would not rise above my current rank. Ever. I also experienced what one could call moral harassment. I did not realize that the climate and environment were so toxic until I left the company.
“It was that toxic environment that allowed that type of harassment to occur in the first place.”
Metta Space: Do you believe that your field and how dominated it is by men influenced the amount of sexual harassment that occurred?
Carmen S.: A determining factor is the culture of the company. In big banks or consulting groups, where people die for longer working hours, there tends to be more harassment. However, the culture was already created differently in fields where there traditionally have been more women than men. That has still left a mark.
Mariel: Although we have become more gender equal, there is not as much gender equality rising through the pyramid ranks. At associate or senior levels, men did not have to rise through the ranks as much as women. And at the end of the day, sexual harassment is also about power.
Metta Space: Do you believe that your experience with sexual harassment has changed in your current higher-ranking position?
Mariel: With age, one learns to become hyper-aware. Since we were little girls, we have had to learn to read signals that men have not had to read. With the passing of the years, you put up with nonsense less and have the tools to stop it. In my current position as the head of the company, I have enough power to control the situation, and I, therefore, have not experienced any sexual harassment since then. I have learned to be more forceful and just laugh at the harassers when they attempt it. But it took me years to learn that and to adapt. Many women may never get to that position where there is enough power to control the situation.
Carmen S.: The experience you gain is a degree in itself and helps you control situations. In my current position, I have not had any experience with sexual harassment. The power and knowledge in this type of situation let you control the beginning, middle, and end of any incident.
Metta Space: What advice do you have for the next generation entering the workforce especially young women?
Carmen M.: Learn to read the signs. It is important to have your own confidence and give yourself credit. I urge younger women to not excuse other people’s behavior.
“Take care of your own interests and create plan Bs to always be prepared.”
Carmen S.: Any conduct that you might find suspicious, report it. In the long term, learn to be assertive to prevent it from happening again.
Mariel: Be aware of each situation — of what is happening. Try to be assertive without being confrontative. I advise younger women to learn to stop the incident from happening before it turns into more. To believe in themselves and communicate how they feel in the moment that it occurs.
Metta Space: What do you think about a reporting system such as Metta Space?
“Metta Space is great because it creates an awareness of sexual harassment in the workplace in the first place” — Carmen S.
Mariel: Knowing that a reporting system such as Metta Space exists will pull back the behavior because harassers know that there could be consequences.
Biographies:
Carmen Sanmartin de Castro: Carmen has worked in Human Resources for over 30 years in the financial sector and director positions. She is now the head of her company, Selecciona Recursos Humanos, and has been heading it for the last 13 years. This company focuses on different sectors with a specialization in the banking industry.
Carmen Morales Sanchez — Carmen has a background in corporate psychology and has worked in all the Big 4 Consulting companies, multinational oil and gas companies, and multinational consulting companies. For the last 15 years, she has owned her consulting company, Almagesto. She also works in executive coaching and is a professor at IE University.
Mariel Isakson — Mariel has a background in political science but has been working in Human Resources, executive search, and recruitment for the last 20 years. In the past ten years, she has owned her company, Laute Consulting.
They have all worked together on projects with companies such as Santander and Caixa Bank and in sectors such as leadership and development. All of them, however, realized that they had to create their businesses because there was no future in bigger companies for people like them — women with character and big dreams.
Interview led article written by: Paula Koller-Alonso, Head of R&D at Metta Space
Edited by: Clémence Bouchard, Marketing Intern at Metta Space
