How to Fight Racism in the AAPI Community
Stephanie N. Wong, Ph.D. is an adjunct faculty member in the counseling psychology department at Peninsula Behavioral Health. Professor Wong completed her doctoral degree in counseling psychology at New York University. She finished postdoctoral fellowship training at the Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System. Her work focus on treating post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and related mental health disorders. She also works to fight racism and Anti-blackness in the AAPI Community through education and awareness.
Here’s our interview with Dr. Stephanie Wong; you can listen to her on our podcast page, or on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify below. You can watch Dr. Stephanie Wong’s Imagine Talks Podcast interview on YouTube.
Find out more about Dr. Stephanie N. Wong:
- LinkedIn: Stephanie N. Wong, Ph.D.
- Instagram: @PsychForThePeople
- Link to the AAPI Fighting Anti-Blackness Guide: PDF file on Adobe DocumentCloud
Introducing Dr. Stephanie N. Wong
Francis Kong: Welcome to the Imagine Talks podcast: social impact and overcoming obstacles. I am Francis Kong.
Tammy Tran: And I’m Tammy Tran.
Steven Chan: And I’m Steven Chan.
Michelle Sahai: And I’m Michelle Sahai. For today’s episode, we will be introducing Dr. Stephanie Wong, who is a licensed counseling psychologist at Peninsula Behavioral Health, the VA in Palo Alto, and a researcher and an adjunct professor at the University of San Francisco and New York University. Her work centers on trauma-informed care, identity development, and social justice and therapy, research, teaching, and advocacy with diverse communities.
Among Stephanie’s many passions, she also works to fight Anti-blackness and the AAPI Community through education and awareness. You can find her on Instagram @PsychForThePeople. Now, without delay let’s welcome Dr. Wong.
Tammy Tran: Hi, Doctor Wong.
Stephanie Wong: Hi, thanks so much for having me.
How a Counseling Psychologist Fights Racism
Tammy Tran: Thank you for being here on our podcast. You have such a diverse and various background in counseling. Can you tell us a little bit more about your work?
Stephanie Wong: Sure. I wear many hats, as you can tell, I think that’s one of my favorite parts about being a psychologist. I think generally I’m a clinician by training that’s something…I’m really passionate about is providing individual, couples, and group therapy to folks. Specifically folks from marginalized communities who regularly wouldn’t have access to mental health care.
I am also an adjunct professor. Something I’m really, really passionate about is, I think bringing anti-racism mark into the teaching space…into counseling and supervision. And, I’m involved in a few research projects. I’m writing a book chapter, co-writing a book chapter on sexual trauma within the queer community. And co-writing a book chapter on decolonizing Asian bodies. A lot of my prior research work that kind of got me into this entire field, really centered on understanding body image development for Asian-American Women. That’s also a passion of mine.
Do Your Efforts to Combat Anti-Blackness in the AAPI Community Make a Difference?
Tammy Tran: Wow! That’s so interesting. I have one question in regard to your interest. And it’s relevant to what’s happening today: “fighting anti-blackness.” What does it mean to combat anti-blackness in the AAPI community?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. That’s such a good question and I think, has a complicated answer. I think the ways that I have been thinking about it, and my thinking has evolved significantly over time.
I thought a lot around my positionality, my identity as an Asian-American woman, and conversations around race and racism. Specifically, racism toward black and brown communities in the US, and thought a lot about what is that what did that look like for me growing up in the Bay Area. I grew up in a time here when I think the colorblind myth was very prevalent. I grew up in an environment in which I didn’t see race and I didn’t realize how much of a huge privilege that was, until I moved away from the Bay Area and started becoming a part of different communities that were not filled with people that looks like me.
And I think it was really through my Master’s at Teachers College, I took a course by Dr. Derald Wing Sue called “Microaggressions,” and that course was seriously life-changing for me where I suddenly realized that there was language for all of these experiences that folks with marginalized identities were experiencing.
[I] kind of dove a lot more into taking courses by Dr. Robert Carter..who like really was at the forefront of racial identity theory and racial development to try and understand what was the history of racism in the US and in what ways is that showing up today.
Racism and White Supremacy Culture
When I was in my master’s and doctoral programs I think we [were] in this really interesting time in the US when I think, with the election of President Obama, a lot of folks were thinking like you know. “Look, we have a black man as a president. Everyone is totally fine with race; we don’t need to talk about racism. Racism is a dirty word. Let’s put it away, that’s not part of polite conversation.”
And, I think we saw the conversation drastically shift with the election of Donald Trump, right? Where suddenly, I think that gave a lot of…the dialogue and the rhetoric of the Trump administration gave a lot of openings and validation almost of white supremacy and white supremacy culture.
Since it’s kind of a long roundabout way of saying. I think a lot of my studies and work had really culminated and been pushed. I’ve been really, really challenged last summer, with the murders of George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery.
So many unnamed folks from the black and brown communities to really examine, what was I actively doing within my own positions of privilege as a psychologist as somebody who has access to mental health care, who provides mental health care. Am I actually… I think pushing myself in my roles to advocate for different communities. Am I actually embodying what it means to be an ally? Or work toward allyship, what it means to be a part of social justice and the difficult answer for me to come to was “No.”
I was being silent in a lot of ways and I was having a lot of these conversations within safe communities — communities of other mental health professionals, other folks who were kind of within my bubble of holding the same values, and they wanted to really push beyond that and be really explicit around… we as a community, as a society need to fight, actively fight anti-blackness in the US, because that and white supremacy are really at the root of a lot of the things that we’re seeing today. Hopefully, that answered some of the questions.
Tammy Tran: Definitely. It definitely answered the question and I have a couple of follow-up questions to what you said.
Is Color Blind Myth a Thing?
Tammy Tran: First was the clarification of, what is a “colorblind myth” that you mentioned in the beginning?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. Colorblind myth is really this. There’s probably others who will describe it much more eloquently. I can say how it showed up for me and my own experience, it really is this myth that “I don’t see color, all lives matter” is part of that as well, right? Some of those sentiments around, “Why can’t we just treat everyone equally?”
It’s this myth of sameness that I think does a disservice to these beautiful and rich ways in which we are also different.
This tags on to conversations I think emerging now for a lot of folks around intersectionality — that is intersectionality was put forth by a lot of like black feminist scholars originated with Kimberlé Crenshaw. And really spoke to the value of seeing difference, it worked directly against color blindness, where it said how can I hold people in all of their complexities with all of the different identities they bring. I am not only Asian. I’m not only American, I am not only a woman, I am so many other things, and I would like to be considered as a full person, rather than just another human being whose history and whose life doesn’t matter, right? That is kind of how I thought about color blindness.
Tammy Tran: That actually speaks true to a lot of the things that I feel too, as a fellow Asian-American. And everything that I’ve seen that’s been happening so far in the past several months actually. And, though what you’re saying actually resonates with me very much.
How Dominant Groups and Non-Dominant Groups Play Into Racism
Tammy Tran: The other follow-up question I have for you is, what does “allyship” mean to you personally, and what does it mean for you to be a good “ally” to other marginalized communities?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. Great question and like a huge question. So, rein me in if I talk too long about it. This was such a recent — again this like recent journey for me, I really credit a lot to the work that folks have done to the Black Lives Matter Movement: pushing me to seek out resources and lean on the wisdom that like collective wisdom of communities before me to really understand what this means for me.
Ally in psychological research usually it’s defined as members of dominant groups who build relationships with and take stands against the oppression of members of non-dominant groups. So, if we break that down, right?
Stephanie Wong: Members of dominant groups. Dominant referring to any piece of your identity that holds power or that is deemed worthy or of value in US society, right?
Typically we think of dominant group members as folks who are white, cisgender, heterosexual, temporarily able-bodied, right? I think middle to high socioeconomic status, so those are members of the dominant groups who build relationships with and take stands against the oppression of members of non-dominant groups.
So, non-dominant meaning anyone who holds identities that are not considered ‘normative’ right? Anyone who holds identities that are often invisible so we think of folks who identify as disabled, folks who identify as black, brown, indigenous, person of color, trans, queer, women, right? Anyone who has historically experienced some type of — I mean truly — disenfranchisement as a result of their identities. That is like the base definition of Ally, that I operated from and, as I read more into the research.
Three Stages of Working Toward Allyship
I kind of stumbled across this like brilliant research article written by Keith Edwards, who I think at the time was a doctoral student at the University of Maryland in College Park. And Keith talks about Ally Identity Development, which really resonated for me so there’s these like three stages of working toward allyship. And working toward I would say, effective allyship, right?
First Stage: Aspiring Allies for Self-Interest
So, the first is and I so identify with this at the beginning of my own work, the first is aspiring allies for self-interest. What this looked like for me was I have always thought of myself as an ally in kind of a naive way without fully understanding, I was like, “Yeah, I’m here for diversity, I’m here for social justice conversations, I’m here for multiculturalism.” Because…this was so born out of self-interest because I was like I have friends who’ve dealt with this.
I have direct contact with people who have suffered at the hands of white supremacy and racism, right? That’s where the self-interest piece comes in and it’s kind of this. I think of it as like a naive standpoint around like just because it’s like well, I have this one black friend. Therefore I’m an ally. And I’m going to jump in to protect them at any point in time, whether or not they asked for it, right?
Second Stage: Moving from Self-Interest to Aspiring Allies for Altruism
The second stage that we move to so from self-interest [is] to aspiring allies for altruism. These folks are primarily motivated to ally to start dealing with the guilt and shame that comes up with recognizing their own unearned privilege. I really think of this…for me, this showed up when I was in grad school. I think I was learning about all these concepts, I was starting to unpack like here’s way in which my identity, I’m part of dominant groups, here’s way that I’m part of non-dominant groups.
I feel so guilty and ashamed because there’s a lot of ways in which I was born into some privileged identities, right? And so, in an effort to kind of rectify that, or like work against it what I ended up doing is saying like, “No, I’m one of the good ones, I’m working really hard over here. Those people over there are racist. I’m working here in my own sphere and I’m not racist,” right? So, it’s this kind of othering of yourself in an effort to protect against this guilt and shame that is so common and comes up, right?
Third Stage: Moving Towards Allies for Social Justice
The third stage is that I think am I like continually aspiring to…I don’t know that there’ ever like an end goal but it’s called moving towards allies for social justice, right? Allies for social justice intentionally collaborate and partner with folks who hold non-dominant or oppressed identities, right? They recognize that all people are harmed by oppression. It’s not just the group that happens to have experienced the mass shooting. It’s not just the group that has certain members who are killed for running down the street, right?
When that person is harmed actually harms all of us as a community, including folks from dominant groups, right? This was something that I only started working toward I will say in a concerted way within the last few years and it’s been so humbling. I think we…it’s human nature to want to think of ourselves as good people and, like with good intentions, and I think we are and there’s more to be done. Allyship is this continual process and it’s not something that we get a certificate or a stamp for at the end of it.
Allyship is not something that we title ourselves, I never say “I’m Dr. Wong. I’m Stephanie the ally,” right? That is a title, that is a label that I might, that someone from the group that I’m trying to ally with may grant me or may not, they may look at my efforts and say that’s actually not aligned with the thing that may help us the most and like, “Oh, gosh. Okay, I’m so sorry, let’s dial back, let’s collaborate, let’s figure out something that feels more aligned for you.”
Yeah, I think the bottom line here for me that I’ve operated from is like we are always choosing allyship, it is an active choice and I think sometimes we mess up, sometimes I mess up, and I realized that some sort of action of mine is actually coming from self-interest or it’s coming from the lofty view of altruism and it’s not actually coming from a social justice place and the work there is just like granting yourself the space and compassion to say like, “You know what? that wasn’t actually aligned with my values or this group’s values. Let’s recalibrate and continue on.”
Steven Chan: That makes sense. Dr. Wong, you know, you also have co-launched an Instagram account as part of this way to teach people about some of the concepts that you’ve just described.
The allyship as well as the three different segments. In a moment, later on, I think we’d all love to hear about what inspired you to start that and your experience with that.
The Advice of Dr. Stephanie N. Wong on Activism
Steven Chan: But first, I wanted to also mention [that] we are in such a pivotal time in the Asian American collective experience and since the events in Georgia on March 16, 2021.
Many young Americans have expressed feelings of frustration helplessness and anger and how would you address these individuals? What advice might you give them for turning their strong emotions into activism and are there any resources that you could potentially recommend for self-education?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah, such an important question and I think, I want to acknowledge that I’m still actively in my own grieving and processing space and I think that there, like first, to folks who are feeling anything or feeling nothing about what happened in Atlanta.
About the murders in Atlanta, I think I just want to offer like some sort of space of validation or normalization that everything folks are feeling is so valid. And I have spoken with so many people, particularly folks within the Asian American Pacific Islander community about this and heard such a diversity of reactions to this. There’s this deep grief and sadness, and anger, and powerlessness, and there are some folks I’ve talked to like I can’t even begin to approach processing that, it is just not something that I can do right now, and that is equally okay and valid.
I think I certainly went through this last week of not knowing how to turn my strong emotions into activism and was talking with a friend just around like I just feel so like what is this all for the things that we’ve been working for, if these things, keep happening to not only our community but black communities, native communities like I just, I think something important — there’s two — like, allow room for the strong emotions that come up. And for me, some sort of like self-affirmation of, like, it’s okay to actually step back and take care of yourself for a little bit before we can turn it into action.
I think there’s a lot of incredible power, and being versus doing. And that in and of itself can be a subversive action when white supremacy culture tells us, “just jump to the next thing, stay professional, don’
t feel anything, move to the next thing.” I think there’s so much power in saying, “You know what? I am feeling all the things, I need to step back and I need to take space for myself and then I’m going to show up for other people when I am ready.”
So, that is kind of the first piece of it, the second is, I think there are so many. I think this is like the beauty of social media that I have found so many amazing resources through social media. That I never even…I would have had a hard time finding on my own so some of those, Stop AAPI Hate, The Asian American Psychological Association is offered really incredible resources for folks. There, a friend actually just shared this with me yesterday.
The Building AAPI Collective Power Resource Guide — you can actually just Google it. So, googling things like Asian American Healing Spaces, Asian American Comprehensive Resource Guide. Like, Google is your friend in this instance, and so many people have put in so much incredible work into compiling a lot of these things.
I think something here that has been grounding for me, too, is like, remembering, like, this is white supremacy. As a result, like this is part of a larger system, and don’t lose sight of the larger system that needs to be dismantled. For such a large system to be dismantled, we need to rely on collective community resources and healing in whatever way that looks like for folks and I think activism looks so different depending on your emotional physical, and financial resources.
On some days, maybe activism looks like reaching out to a friend and saying like, “Hey, I’m just thinking of you, how are you?”
For others, activism can look like donating $5 to a GoFundMe page for one of the people impacted by the Atlanta shooting.
I think I know I can get really scared to engage in activism because I build it up in my head is like it has to be this huge thing — I have to go to a march, I have to like post everything on all of my pages and say something, and sometimes it can look like much smaller actions in that. Yeah.
The Activist Burnout Cycle: Am I Doing Enough?
Steven Chan: Yeah, and I certainly resonate with that too, sometimes I wonder to myself, what am I doing exactly? Am I doing enough? Or is there a perfect way to do this?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah.
Steven Chan: Is there a right way to do this? And then certainly, with those feelings of you know why is this, why does this keep happening? Especially after a century, a lot, a lot of civil rights activism, and it is still going on certainly.
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. I love that you said, “Am I doing enough? Is there a right way to be an activist?” Is there, like maybe there’s this image of a perfect activist. And that’s something that I just want to name as like.
That those are the little things that we catch that are white supremacy telling us: you’re not enough, no matter what you do it’s not enough and there’s a standard, you have to reach, right?
That’s not true at all in practice.
It’s the small individual and collective actions that then create like this wave of activism and what you are doing, simply by like living in your experience is enough, and can be enough, and there can be more that you can do when you feel able, right? And I just want to acknowledge like I struggle with that question those questions those thoughts every day and so yeah.
Steven Chan: You mentioned a few resources and will also show highlight the resource that you’ve also co-created and I’ll just briefly show it on screen and one of these is Stop AAPI Hate…
STOP AAPI HATE website
Steven Chan: And then I think you also mentioned the American or Asian American Psychological Association.
Asian American Psychological Association website
Stephanie Wong: Yeah.
Steven Chan: And then finally your Instagram.
Stephanie Wong: Yeah.
Steven Chan: Psych for (F-O-R) the people. What inspired you to create PsychForThePeople? And what are you thinking of hoping to achieve with this quite comprehensive account?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. Such a good question and I just want to acknowledge it too.
This looks the way it does because and like sounds the way it does largely to because of Dr. Marisa Floro, who I co-created this with who’s a very dear friend and colleague, and I think…You know this really started after she and I had so many conversations around. What do we, it was that question of what do we do, are we doing enough as psychologists to really contribute to anti-racism? Like what does that look like in what ways are we actually by being I know for myself by being historically only quiet, or like only bringing up anti-racism within safe spaces, spaces that felt warm and welcoming to me like within training spaces.
In what ways is that actually contributing to the perpetuation of racism, right? And that continued silencing of this conversation and I had thought a lot around like…you know, there are so many amazing things that I’ve learned from psychology research, that I’ve been able to access because of graduate school.
Graduate school taught me how to look at a research paper and kind of take the really important things from it and turn it into something that felt applicable and I wanted to be able to share that with other folks who might be interested because there’s actually like none of these concepts are new. Racism, allyship, intersectionality — none of these is new, and yet I know for a lot of folks who are not necessarily with inside or any you know, affiliated field, it feels new and the language feels at times inaccessible.
So, I think it was really born out of wanting to deconstruct some of that and turn it into things that can be useful takeaways for folks to start applying to their own lives and their own journey toward anti-racism and allyship and you know this was really…I think born out of upholding three specific values, right? We wanted to increase access to psychology research to inform what we call “Cultural Humility.”
So, that looks like kind of increasing people’s ability to self-reflect on their own cultural identity and to expand their openness to other cultural identities, so that was kind of one of the pillars that we wanted to put forth here.
Another is to help people really think about their social justice values. So, helping folks maybe identify some guiding values that can promote equity, inclusion, and participation, and access for everybody. So, in a lot of these different posts, we have — right — a learning section in the caption and then there’s a reflecting section, so questions you can ask yourself to kind of further some of your own practice if you choose to engage in that.
And then the third here is anti-racist activism: identifying and eliminating racism by challenging racist policies and ideas and explicitly supporting anti-racist policies and ideas. And so, just like again kind of breaking that silence and that, like, politeness protocol that we have around, “don’t talk about race, don’t talk about religion, don’t talk about sex, don’t talk about that stuff at the dinner table.”
What we want to do is provide some language for folks so that you can talk about it with your communities, with your loved ones, so it doesn’t feel like such a scary topic that prohibits you from participating in social justice.
Steven Chan: I love how accessible it is. First off, it meets people where they’re at. So many people use Instagram and oftentimes for entertainment, and yet this is very, very such a pertinent topic. It’s educational. And [it] also helps us put our feelings into words and our experiences into words and what has the response been like so far for you and for with this account?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah, it’s been…I guess part of me, I don’t know maybe other folks feel this when they start social media stuff or like anything new. I think Dr. Floro and I had been talking like you know, hopefully, some people if this even reaches like 20 people, that would be really cool if somebody can read one of the posts and just like turn it over in their head and think about how that fits into their life, that would be really awesome and I think what has been humbling has just been like the feedback we have gotten around [from] folks. And some of them are like family members to me who have contacted me and they’re like, “Wow, I didn’t know that you were doing this.”
I also hadn’t ever thought about this necessarily, but this is really cool because it gives me the language to start. Even recognizing ways in which racism pops up in my life and that has just been so awesome.
I am not, I don’t know enough about the ins and outs of Instagram to chase down the algorithm and like make it a viral account, so that’s never really been the intention. It’s more so just — can I even like — can we even reach one person and have them start thinking about race and like kind of breaking down some of that barrier between research and practice. Can we just make it feel a little bit more within folks’ reach that there’s actually a lot of things you can start doing on your own. And that, like, counts as activism.
Steven Chan: I love that Dr. Wong. You also mentioned that you’d hope to have this message spread and I like to remind our viewers that YouTube can add yourself to PsychForThePeople, you already have over a thousand followers, and over a thousand followers, and this has only been in existence for how long?
Stephanie Wong: I think since July or August of last year…I think what’s been pretty cool is that a lot of this is really like a snowball-like-community effect because we’re not, you know… Dr. Floro and I both hold like wear many hats and do a lot of different things, and so I don’t know that. Haven’t been promoting it probably as much as Instagram would want me to. And so that has been really cool because it feels like an organic growth of people who are really interested in learning more.
Steven Chan: And certainly you mentioned, making the language accessible, making the concepts accessible, and giving people a great first step into being an activist themselves.
One of these I wanted to highlight, one of these certainly caught our team’s attention was the AAPI Fighting Anti-Blackness Guide and if you click on this, not only does it link to a very, very awesome, awesome four-page, I think it’s four pages, right? PDF?
AAPI Fighting Anti-Blackness Guide by Stephanie N. Wong, Ph. D., and Marissa Floro, Ph.D.
Steven Chan: Yeah, four-five pages, sorry. There’s so many, it’s so accessible, I read this and I loved the conversation guide. On common anti-black statements possible responses and along with if you’re interested further reading too.
How the AAPI Fighting Anti-Blackness Guide was developed by Dr. Stephanie N. Wong and Dr. Marissa Floro
Steven Chan: How did you put this together? Are these common things that people say in the AAPI Community? Or are these things you’ve heard privately?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. Such a great question. You know, again like so credit Dr. Floro to because she brought this project to me and asked me if I wanted to collaborate, I was like “Of course, this sounds really important and amazing,” and I think as Dr. Floro and I were talking about it.
You know, talking about race and racism is actually not something super common for the Asian American Pacific Islander Community, right? Race talks are — a lot of research has indicated — are more common for folks who identify as Black or African-American, right?
There’s a normative growing up conversation that parents or caregivers tend to have with kids and say, “Listen, because of the color of your skin, you may be treated this way. Here’s how, here’s what to watch out for, here’s how you can handle it.” Those are necessary talks for folks who are black in the United States because of the violence that is a very real threat anywhere — within their homes, outside of their homes, in schools, and communities, right?
For the Asian-American Community these talks — at least to my knowledge, and I definitely could be wrong — but these are not as common, partly because the type of discrimination and oppression, we face is different [from] those folks who are in the black community, the violence is different, right?
So, a lot of these initial statements, “I agree with Black Lives Matter, but I don’t like the looting.” You know, Dr. Floro and I had talked a lot about this and we had just kind of come up with this running list and pulled from other resources to create sort of similar adjacent guides around, what are things that we usually hear from our parents, from our friends, from clients, from students, right?
And then, what are the toughest ones that are there for us to answer? And what are some ways that we can start to have a conversation about it? That feel safe, and even if they don’t feel necessarily safe or comfortable that feels brave, right? And that can push along this conversation within our community. So, that was kind of where it originated and I’m just like…I think grateful to Dr. Floro for like bringing me on to that project.
Insights on the AAPI Guide
Steven Chan: This is great, and I think that these are some things that maybe people think about but don’t know how to say we are not just their family, but their friends and their communities. So, I certainly would encourage our viewers and our listeners to look at this conversation guide. Some of the quotes include…
“But I’m Asian. I can’t be racist.”
Steven Chan: Or
“We’re all human, All lives matter”
Steven Chan: and certainly what you know and another one that’s interesting to me is…
“This country has given us so much. Why should I protest?”
Steven Chan: And it really, really is great, because you make it so accessible.
One of the things we were also curious about is the ideal world, let’s say there’s an ideal world, how do you see the Asian-American Community interacting with one another in an ideal world, interacting with one another and other minority groups?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. I will caveat: my ideal world is so colored by me being a psychologist, so like I love feelings and open dialogues about everything which may not be everyone’s ideal world, I will admit, and I think…
Steven Chan: I know, for me, my ideal that we can get to as a community, as a country really is having those tough conversations and being able to come from a place of curiosity and learning and respecting each other’s differences, right?
Stephanie Wong: Not painting over somebody’s identity is by saying, “All lives matter, We’re all human. There’s nothing to worry about, let’s just treat each other the same.” I actually don’t think that in my ideal world that I dream of is that we acknowledge everybody’s differences and that…we…I don’t know not that it’s not a big deal, but just that we can come to peace with like that person that’s going to live their life this way because of their identities that they inhabit. And that’s okay, I want to allow space for that, I think that that would be so beautiful and I know that there’s such a long way to go for us to have these conversations…
Because it brings up so much strong emotions for people understandably and you know, again, like the big picture that I try to think of, especially for us identifying as part of the Asian American Community is remembering like the big thing for us to kind of focus on build awareness about deconstruct, dismantle, decolonize, right? Is white supremacy, culture?
It is not like, oh well, let me get stuck on, well, “When did black people show up for the Asian American Community? When did the queer Community show for the Asian American Community?” This like tit for tat kind of pitting against each other.
My hope is that folks can really remember and internalize, right? Like, none of us are free, until all of us are free, and so what happens to another community is linked to me. It is connected to me. It’s not separate, it’s not like a lone wolf thing, it’s not that the hurt you experience is the hurt I experience so let’s collaborate and work together so that we can dismantle this system that is, kind of, it’s impacting all of us so negatively, including folks in the white community, right?
For Young Asian-Americans Who Are Seeking Mental Health Advices — Please Don’t Be Afraid to Ask Questions
Steven Chan: Yeah and I think that certainly leads us to our final question with you is parting thoughts and parting advice for young Asian-Americans who are entering the mental health space either they are seeking treatment, where they’re hoping to provide it, what advice would you have to give for such young Asian Americans?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. I think. First, no matter if you are seeking it or you’re providing it, I think, remembering ways in which the mental health space has been a white space, a colonized space for so long. And there’s so even just the structure of our mental health system, right?
Like, you had to wade through a ton of different profiles, you have to figure out how to find a therapist, you have to figure out what therapy even is, maybe you’ll see somebody with certain degrees, who knows what that means, right? So, I think acknowledging mental health space is a tough space that we are actively working to decolonize and make more accessible.
Stephanie Wong: It’s just, I think to like have your expectation set at that level so, for folks seeking mental health, I think I tried to really acknowledge like listen, it can feel overwhelming at first and for young Asian-Americans who are seeking maybe mental health, for the first time.
Please don’t be afraid to ask questions. Whenever I end up talking with folks who are like trying to determine if therapy feels like a fit, I try to remind people, “This is so important that you fit with your therapist. please don’t be afraid to ask questions about what are your identities? What work have you done on your identities? How do you think you might be able to support me as an Asian-American if you hold the same or different identities?”
Those are questions that I hope any culturally-aware, culturally-sensitive clinician can respond to thoughtfully, and, I think, for students or young professionals who are coming up in the field.
Again, continuing to think about ways in which mental health has contributed and reinforced racial inequity in this country and thinking about, who is highlighted in all of my textbooks? Who are these research articles by? Who are the gatekeepers of these institutions? The spoiler alert is that it’s often White cis-gender heterosexual men [with] middle upper-class status, right? Not always, but usually, those are the voices prioritize or the perspectives prioritized.
And then the question becomes, “How do I start critically decolonizing my own study to create spaces of liberation, rather than continuing spaces of oppression, while acknowledging I may mess up along the way, and that’s okay, and there are things I can do to repair and that repair is the more important thing, not the not-making mistakes.”
Steven Chan: And certainly I think that giving us permission and the invitation to explore this area without the expectation of perfectionism, or that there’s a specific right way to go about it. It is extremely helpful as we’re like going through this overwhelming can be overwhelming certain time overwhelming subject. I wanted to see if there’s so much to unpack what you said, all these concepts of decolonization, white supremacy, etc. I feel like we need to get you back on another podcast episode. So, we would love to have you back on our show and our series in the future.
Stephanie Wong: Yeah. I would love that. Yeah, and there is, there’s so much information out there, so I can certainly appreciate that.
Where to Find Dr. Stephanie N. Wong
Steven Chan: Dr. Wong, if folks wanted to learn more about your work and wanted to find out any sort of the work that you’ve produced or the concepts that you’ve talked about, how can they find you online?
Stephanie Wong: Yeah, and I think the best way at this point is to go to PsychForThePeople, especially if people have any questions about that we try our best to highlight and the work that myself, and Dr. Floro are actively doing as well as trying to really highlight and give voice to the incredible work other folks have done as well and I think just give folks a space that they deserve, and so I think that is probably the best way at this point.
Steven Chan: That’s wonderful, Dr. Wong. Again, that’s on Instagram @psychforthepeople, P-S-Y-C-H-F-O-R THE PEOPLE
Steven Chan: Thank you so much for joining us in this episode with Dr. Stephanie Wong. To learn more about Imagine Talks, go to www dot imagine talks dot org (www.imaginetalks.org)
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