Episode 9: Diversity Is What You Say, Inclusion Is What You Do

Tracy Chou, Jyoti Chopra, and Anjali Ramachandran discuss frameworks, metrics and intersectionality, and ask the hard questions about diversity and inclusion

Artwork by Darren Garrett

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In this episode of Nevertheless, we look at why diversity and inclusion in tech is more important now than ever before. The podcast was recorded at a live event held in London in November 2018, and was a collaboration between Ada’s List and Nevertheless.

The event was hosted by Anjali Ramachandran, co-founder of Ada’s List, a global community of those who identify as women in tech.

Anjali is joined by Tracy Chou and Jyoti Chopra. Tracy is a Software Engineer who has worked at Quora and Pinterest and is well known for her work pushing for diversity in tech. Tracy is now a founding member of Project Include, and is focused on driving solutions in the space.

Jyoti is Senior Vice President and Global Leader of Diversity & Inclusion at Pearson. She is a member of the Board of Advisors at Toyota Motor Company, and previously held prominent positions at Deloitte, Merrill Lynch and BNY Mellon.


Quotes from the Episode

“So often the goals of hiring and building company culture with an eye towards diversity and inclusion can cause a slowdown in that velocity, which trades off very heavily against the sheer execution that’s needed. So the way the start-ups can think about it is almost like debt. It’s fine to incur debt. If you’re starting a business you may need to just take out a loan, and you just need to pay down debt at some point. In the same way that you can have financial debt or technical debt on the engineering side, you can have diversity debt.” — Tracy Chou

“If we were just to solve the gender diversity problem, we might just be helping more white women advance, while all the other races and ethnicities fall behind, and that’s actually something that we have seen with diversity in Silicon Valley tech industry. In the last few years we’ve seen some advances in gender diversity, so slightly more representation of women in engineering teams and in leadership, and we’ve actually had backsliding in racial diversity.” — Tracy Chou

“Inclusion is around actually having people feel that they can participate and are set up to succeed. One of the pithy things I’ve seen floating around Twitter about diversity and inclusion is that diversity is getting invited to the dance, and inclusion is being invited to dance at the dance.” — Tracy Chou

“When I think about diversity, I think about the sum of the parts and what it is that makes an individual special, unique, different, interesting. It’s the composite of experiences, of backgrounds, of environment, of ideas.” — Jyoti Chopra

“I think one needs to be careful not confuse things like gender pay equity with equal pay. They’re two very different concepts, right? What gender pay equity transparency does is it really shows the differences between men and women at different quartiles, which basically correlates to job grades. The underlying root cause of it is basically that you have far fewer women often in management positions than you do have men. That’s really what it’s opening.” — Jyoti Chopra


Featured Guests

Anjali Ramachandran is a director of Storythings and the co-founder of Ada’s List, a global community of those who identify as women in tech.

Tracy Chou is a Software Engineer who has worked at Quora and Pinterest and is well known for her work pushing for diversity in tech. Tracy is now a founding member of Project Include, and is focused on driving solutions in the space.

Jyoti Chopra is Senior Vice President and Global Leader of Diversity & Inclusion at Pearson. She is a member of the Board of Advisors at Toyota Motor Company, and previously held prominent positions at Deloitte, Merrill Lynch and BNY Mellon.


Episode Credits

Written and produced by Storythings
Hosted by Anjali Ramachandran
Season Producer Renay Richardson
Exec Producer Nathan Martin
Exec Producer Anjali Ramachandran
Sound Design by Jason Oberholtzer and Michael Simonelli
Live event production by Amanda Murray and Jo Moon Price. 
Live audio Recording by Spellbinder.
Made by the team at Storythings



Transcript

HOST: As we come to the end of 2018, let’s take a look at some important events that happened this year, around diversity and inclusion in technology.

The UK introduced mandatory reporting of the gender pay gap, and results show that almost eight in ten companies and public sector bodies pay men more than women. Amazon reportedly had an internal AI recruiting tool that was biased against women. A Booking.com survey showed that 42 percent of women admit a gender bias in tech is worse than expected.

In this episode of Nevertheless, we look at why diversity and inclusion in tech is more important now than ever before. Recorded at a live event in London, a collaboration between Ada’s List and Nevertheless, we speak to Tracy Chou and Jyoti Chopra.

Tracy is a Software Engineer who has worked at Quora and Pinterest. She is well known for her work pushing for diversity in tech. In 2013, she helped to kick off the wave of diversity data disclosures in tech companies, when she published a spreadsheet containing the numbers of women in engineering. Tracy is now a founding member of Project Include, and is focused on driving solutions in the space.

Jyoti is Senior Vice President and Global Leader of Diversity & Inclusion at Pearson. She is a member of the Board of Advisors at Toyota Motor Company, and previously held prominent positions at Deloitte, Merrill Lynch and BNY Mellon.

Ada’s List is a global community of those who identify as women in tech, with over 6000 members.

This is Nevertheless. A podcast about learning in the modern age. Each episode, we shine a light on an issue impacting education, and speak to the people creating transformative change. Supported by Pearson and this episode hosted by me, Anjali Ramachandran.

HOST: I want to start today by starting at the very beginning. Both of you are very accomplished people, and it’s amazing to have you here, but both of you have also done a lot within the area of diversity & inclusion in your careers, in addition to your day jobs, which are obviously very, very busy. I’d like to start by talking about what diversity & inclusion actually means to both of you, and what you think it means to most people? And where the imbalance is, if there is any?

From anything that I’ve seen and read, diversity is usually referred to in terms of recruitment. So do you have a diverse workforce? Or inclusion is usually spoken about with regard to culture. So what are the things that you are doing to make a team feel included? The most popular thing I have seen is that diversity is what you say, and inclusion is what you do. So what do those terms mean to you? It’s become a catch-all phrase today, in my opinion. They are very important words, but what do they mean to you? Jyoti, would you like to start?

JYOTI: Sure, happy to start and hello and good evening everyone. Thank you so much for joining us, and really a special shout out to Nathan and the extended team for putting this together, and of course to you, Anjali, for moderating and for your partnership and relationship with Ada’s List.

When I think about diversity, I think about the sum of the parts and what it is that makes an individual special, unique, different, interesting. And it’s the composite of experiences, of backgrounds, of environment, of ideas. It’s a plethora of all of those things and other characteristics that make an individual diverse, unique, special.

And so I think about diversity in the broader sense. You have the traditional classifications and definitions of diverse individuals, by racial or ethnic characteristics, by sexual orientation, gender, veteran status. Some of this is governed by regulatory or legislative aspects in different countries.

But to me, I’ve been very interested in diversity 2.0, which is having a much broader frame of reference through which you think about diversity, and it encompasses things like global acumen, cultural agility, being able to navigate across different generations, as an example. So that’s what diversity is, it’s lots of things.

Inclusion on the other hand, is more behavioural and I think about inclusion, for example, in the context of a workplace environment, or a workplace culture. What is it that makes an environmental culture welcoming, where people can be respected, bring their authentic selves to work, not have to hide parts of their identity or blend in? And so those are some aspects of inclusion, but I see them as very distinct and very different.

TRACY: What I would add on the discussion of diversity, is that it’s the property of a group, it’s not a property of an individual. So when people say a diverse individual, or a diverse hire, that makes no sense to me because you could have someone who is traditional under-represented in the tech workforce, say a black woman, but if you were to have a whole team of black women, that’s not a diverse team either. So I think there’s a bit of conflation of those terms. Diversity to me is when you look at a group, that there is a whole spectrum of representation across many, different dimensions: gender, race, age, sexual orientation, backgrounds, socio-economics, that is all these different things, and also the intersectionality of those. So, it’s not just a whole bunch of white women and black men or something like that. We have this really rich cross section.

And inclusion, to add to what Jyoti was saying, is around actually having people feel that they can participate and are set up to succeed. One of the other pithy things I’ve seen floating around Twitter about diversity and inclusion is that diversity is getting invited to the dance, and inclusion is being invited to dance at the dance.

HOST: You touched on something really interesting, which is intersectionality. That to my mind, is a very American word, I think. There’s not a lot of understanding in the rest of the world, in my personal opinion at least, of what intersectionality means. Groups of people are, by definition, intersectional. When those groups come together, you’re likely to see a few of these characteristics pop up in one place, but how do you think we could help the rest of the working world, technology especially, understand the importance not only of diversity and inclusion, but intersectionality as well in building teams that are strong and resilient?

TRACY: The first thing I would start with is just elaborating a bit more on this idea of intersectionality. So there’s the idea that we have all these different dimensions of identity that intersect, and so if you were to just treat one dimension of it, let’s say we’re looking at diversity of gender, and we just try to solve gender, without looking at all the other intersections with race for example, we won’t do an effective job.

The experience of a white woman is very different than the experience of an Asian woman, or a black woman, a Latino woman or a Muslim woman, and so when we flatten these dimensions, and are only solving for women, we often actually do a disservice to the overall diversity and inclusion movement.

There are some interesting stats that you might see around this. There’s an index called the Executive Parity Index, which compares overall representation of a group to the representation in leadership, and so that gets us some of these more subtle signals — who gets promoted, and who is viewed as a leader. If you look at the executive parity of white men, it’s the highest. So they’re the most over-represented in leadership relative to overall population. For white women it’s about 1.1, so slightly over a percent in leadership, and then if you look at any other race and gender combos, it’s way less. So actually, Asian women and Asian men do particularly poorly in tech, and that’s partly because there’s a lot of Asian people in tech, and partly because there’s very few Asian people in leadership.

If we were just to solve the gender diversity problem, we might just be helping more white women advance, while all the other races and ethnicities fall behind, and that’s actually something that we have seen with diversity in Silicon Valley tech industry. In the last few years we’ve seen some advances in gender diversity, so slightly more representation of women in engineering teams and in leadership, and we’ve actually had backsliding in racial diversity.

So that’s just like a primer on some intersectionality issues.

HOST: Thank you. I think that was really insightful. Jyoti, working as you have in big companies throughout your career, what do you think are the biggest challenges in bringing diversity, inclusion, intersectionality to the forefront with executive teams?

JYOTI: So I think one of them is having a common understanding of what is meant by diversity and inclusion, and establishing a common set of objectives or priorities because it means different things to different people. I think one of the places to begin is to come up with a framework through which you define for your organization what you mean by diversity, equality, belonging, and inclusion. Sitting down and talking to your executive teams around what the goals and priorities for the organization are that you want to set out and chart.

But really where the challenges come in, particularly for global organizations, is that you have international workforces, but you are governed by regulations and legal norms on a country-by-country basis, and these vary vastly. So while you may be able to collect racial diversity data in countries like the US and the UK, you absolutely can’t in other parts of the world, as an example.

So it’s highly nuanced and you have to calibrate based on the operating environment which you’re in. It’s not a one-size-fits-all. And in many respects, this is actually counter to what technology has enabled in the form of global teaming, and global working. Technology, in many respects, has broken down barriers and removed boundaries, and you have global workforces that are working through virtual teams, for example.

So I think there’s a tremendous responsibility on the part of companies today to make sure that they have cultural sensitization, that they’re working in accordance with local norms and regulations, and that they’re always continuously training, educating and reminding their own workforce of the need to be sensitive to differences across countries, even though you’re a global team and you’re a global workforce. You know, somebody sitting in another part of the world may just not even be able to talk about certain things, and so that is probably, I think, one of the greatest challenges in this space.

HOST: Thank you. Tracy. You’ve worked at Pinterest, amongst many other companies in the past, and that’s a very different environment from a big company like Pearson, for example. What are the challenges there, when you want to bring something to the fore with regard to the importance of diversity and inclusion? Back in the day, well a few years ago, you actually created a spreadsheet where you asked companies, employees of start-ups like Twitter and Facebook and the like, to actually declare how many male and female engineers they were employing. Today, would you say are they less or more aware of the issues, and how they surmount those issues?

TRACY: I think one of the biggest challenges for start-ups is, this incredible urgency they have to build a product and get product market fit, and not run out of money and die. So the short-term versus long-term trade-offs can feel a lot more pressing.

In the start-up environment, managers need to hire somebody now or yesterday, to build this product and make sure it’s built within the three-month runway that you have left. So often the goals of hiring and building company culture with an eye towards diversity and inclusion can cause a slowdown in that velocity, which trades off very heavily against the sheer execution that’s needed.

So the way the start-ups can think about it is almost like debt. It’s fine to incur debt. If you’re starting a business you may need to just take out a loan, and you just need to pay down debt at some point. In the same way that you can have financial debt or technical debt on the engineering side, you can have diversity debt, and you may need to take on the debt in the beginning because you just can’t build a completely diverse team from the get-go, when you are constrained by the amount of cash you have in the bank, and you have existential risk of not existing in six months. But just be cognizant that the longer that you’re building on that debt, and it’s compounding, the harder it will be to pay it down in the future.

HOST: In Silicon Valley, you have companies like Uber where Travis Kalanick did such a disservice, in my opinion, to whole start-up world. There are companies that still thrive on the culture that thinks that working 12, 18 hour days is the done thing and that’s a good thing. There are lots of people who can’t and don’t want to work that way, and increasingly, or not, women are amongst them because they have a lot of other responsibilities, I’m not saying men don’t, but largely it is women that take the lion’s share of responsibilities at home. How do you think start-up culture has been responding to the increased awareness of burnout and the lack of inclusivity in the workforce?

TRACY: I think more and more there are start-ups that acknowledge the need for work/life balance, and for some companies they build that in to their culture. I would actually say that an interesting counterpoint to this sort of culture towards more of a work/life balance, is looking at China where they work really hard.

I’m not sure if people here are familiar with the term “996”? It was something that I learned recently. I think it was a company in China that was advertising how much work/life balance they had, and they said they were 996 which means that they only work 9:00AM to 9:00PM six days a week. And that’s good, relatively speaking.

I do think there are some people who subscribe that sort of philosophy. People who look at companies advertising true work/life balance and much more normal working hours, allowing people being able to disconnect and thinking that these companies are not going to succeed. I think there are different types of companies, and different cultures that will work for different people, but there may be some types of companies that just can’t get built when you’re not working those insane hours, if your competitors are working those hours.

JYOTI: Just another point I’d add. One of the trends that we’ve been seeing is a lot of companies starting to integrate health, mindfulness, well-being as part of their overall benefits package. So in addition to offering work/life flexibility, sabbaticals, you’re starting to see I think, more companies really focus on things like stress, financial planning and things that are often triggers in peoples lives, and offer everything from counselling services to financial education and financial well-being services, to increased parental leave policies. I think the trend is definitely going in that direction, and it’s something I think is actually going to increase.

HOST: When we talk about words like diversity and inclusion, a lot of people, as we’ve spoken about earlier, come at it from different places, and it makes it very hard to measure what success looks like. What in your opinion are the best ways of measuring what success looks like when it comes to diversity and inclusion? And success for businesses in general, linked to that? What are the best metrics you’ve seen?

JYOTI: So I’m happy to start on this one. I’ve done a lot of work on this in different organisations. I think it begins with first having a clear framework around your goals and objectives. Specifying what it is you’re trying to achieve. Is it increasing gender representation? Is it increasing the representation of people of colour? Is it creating a more engaged, inclusive workforce? Is it having your products and services culturally relevant and bias-free, and more accessible? And so on.

Once you’ve defined what your goals and your objectives are, then you can begin to build a measurement framework, and I think it’s really important to have a measurement model that is both quantitative and qualitative. So yes, you can look at traditional measures of diversity, and typically you’ll look at the composition of women in the workforce, and you can do that by country or globally. You’ll look at racial diversity and the countries where you’re legally permitted to capture and track and report on racial diversity.

But you may want to include things like employee engagement survey scores. You may want to look at impact on business and revenue. For example, if you have customer-facing diversity initiatives, if you’re targeting diverse customer segments, if you’re measuring by product sell. Just to give you an example and to bring this to life, I serve on Toyota’s Diversity Advisory Board for North America, and Toyota tracks very carefully its sales in the multi-cultural markets, and so you could have measures based on customer segments, as an example, supplier diversity is another dimension. Companies track their spend on diverse suppliers and what portion of their total procurement spend is going to diverse suppliers.

And then you can look at things like your ratings and rankings, and involvement in indices. You know, where are you in the Bloomberg Gender Equality Index etc? Those would be a few guides.

HOST: Thank you. Assuming that a start-up founder is trying to build his company at breakneck speed as Tracy was saying, and they’re also an incredibly mindful person, let’s assume that they are, and they want to do all these things at the same time, they can’t. What would you prioritize over the rest, and why?

JYOTI: I think that’s something that the CEO and his or her leadership team should identify, based on what their priorities are. If getting their products out in the market to sale for a certain type of customer segment is their number one priority, and they’ve got a certain period of time in which to do it, putting a measurement model around that. I don’t think it necessarily has to be just the decision of the CEO or the chairman. I think often what makes it powerful is when it’s agreed collectively and becomes a shared, owned set of measures.

But I would say, certainly product services, sales is a very important metric. I think composition of the workforce, and I think some form of engagement scores. Those would probably be my top three.

HOST: Okay. Thank you. Tracy, when you created that spreadsheet, that was to measure diversity of the workforce. From then to now, which is where communities like Project Include exist and communities like Ada’s List exist, what change have you seen over the years when it comes to measuring? And do you think more people are more aware and want to measure those kinds of things in their companies, with regards to workforce?

TRACY: I think the biggest change is that companies are actually measuring diversity now. And it may be at a level that feels superficial, often-times it’s limited to gender and race, sometimes not even intersectionally. But I do think that is at least a starting point, and lack of diversity along those dimensions is often a red flag for lack of diversity elsewhere, so most companies now at least pay a bit of attention to the diversity of the demographics, the workforce.

In terms of what’s been going on in the ecosystem overall, I think there’s been a lot more talk because there is data there that shows how big the problem is. There’s a lot more people talking about the problem. Unfortunately, I haven’t seen as much in the way of success in making headway against the lack of diversity. So there’s more money splashed around, and people announcing big efforts and PR, but not nearly as much in terms of traction on actual efforts, which is a bit of a bummer.

I think it’s also leading to some tech diversity backlash and diversity fatigue, which is worrisome to me in that some people, who are maybe not as bought into diversity and inclusion efforts, are hearing it discussed all the time and feel like it’s not meaningful. That we’re wasting time discussing things that are not turning into any real change, and we should therefore just stop wasting time talking about it. So I am concerned that we’re not moving fast enough on that.

One of the other things that’s played out over the last five years or so, I would say, is that more people are aware of diversity being beyond gender, to also include race. I think that’s also because there are other movements that have been happening at the same time, like Black Lives Matter, so there’s more attention put on race now. But as I mentioned earlier, we’ve seen, very, very minor progress, like low single digit percentage increases in gender diversity or women’s representation, which has also been matched by backslides in racial representation. That’s the overall landscape that I’ve seen.

HOST: One of the best things that I think the UK has done recently, is to actually make gender pay gap reporting mandatory for companies that have more than 250 employees. I think that’s really forced the hand of a lot of executive teams, at least in this country, and I’ve heard anecdotally that it’s really helped women because the data is there. They can take that data, go to their boss, and say well this is the average, or the median or whatever they want to use, and you need to pay me fairly. Are there ways that governments and the law should be doing more, in your opinion, in different countries around the world?

JYOTI: There is no question in my mind that the trend and the movement is towards greater disclosure and much higher levels of transparency, and I’ve been encouraged by actually seeing regulators and governments begin to really step in and coalesce around it. I think there’s a tremendous amount of work still to be done, even in the countries that are now doing this.

In the US for example, under the Dodd-Frank Act section 342, the financial service industry has now been regulated, but it’s to provide voluntary self-assessments on diversity and inclusion. Most of the major banks and firms have complied and submitted voluntary self assessments, and that’s a start.

I think one needs to be careful not confuse things like gender pay equity with equal pay. They’re two very different concepts, right? What gender pay equity transparency does is it really shows the differences between men and women at different quartiles, which basically correlates to job grades. The underlying root cause of it is basically that you have far fewer women often in management positions than you do have men. That’s really what it’s opening.

So the onus is then on the companies to say, if we have a gap, what are we going to do about it? What becomes important is then the action plan, or what I call interventions, in order to really change those numbers. And that’s really I think, the call to action.

I’m incredibly proud at Pearson, of the work that’s being done. We’ve put together a five point action plan, and our Women’s Employee Resource Group has been actively championing a lot of the work in supporting some of the initiatives. So it takes a coalition, and it takes a combination of senior-management-/executive-team-level ownership and then driving it through the organization.

TRACY: One specific thing I would say that governments could do, and some state governments are doing this in the United States, is mandating minimum percentages of women on boards. That’s a bit more achievable. If you have a 10-person board, you should have at least three women. The numbers are small enough in those ranks that I think it is actually possible and given that the job of the board is governance, hopefully they can have that effect spill down as well.

HOST: I want to come back to something a bit more personal now. At the Nevertheless podcast, we’ve commissioned a set of posters about STEM role models. Tracy and Jyoti, could you tell us who your personal role models are in this field, in technology, and tech, whatever you want to go by?

TRACY: One person I think of as a role model is Megan Smith. So she was formerly Chief Technology Officer of the United States. She is an IT-trained engineer, worked at Google and Google X, she was a VP there, and then she went on to go and work with the US federal government, and I intersected with her briefly there when I was working in the US digital service. I think she’s just an amazing leader, and on the engineering side she’s extremely credible and has done a lot of good work there on the diversity and inclusion front, she has a very good way of helping people to feel the urgency around diversity and inclusion. She frames it as unlocking talent, in a way that makes people feel compelled to act, but not feel guilty. And so it’s a very fine balance to strike in these very difficult conversations, like touch on issues of privilege and power and structural issues that need to be resolved, and people can get very defensive. I think she’s very good at leading people in her work, and how she speaks about these things.

JYOTI: I have actually followed and admired Sheryl Sandberg for igniting the debate, and for spawning and catalysing, not just the “Lean In” movement, but broader conversations about the ownership that women have to have around their careers in many respects.

I found her last book, Option B, very moving and very powerful. It was written in the aftermath of the death of her husband, and all of a sudden you think you’ve got your life planned, or your career planned, and something devastating happens and then what do you do? You’ve got to have a plan B.

But I find that she’s a very practical, pragmatic leader and has inspired this movement which really centres around getting women to pull their confidence levels up, and to really be at those tables in the office or in the boardroom or wherever. And there’s no doubt in my mind that that has had a galvanizing shift for millions of women around the world.

TRACY: I’m actually kind of curious to follow up on that…

JYOTI: Sure.

TRACY: Because in a lot of the diversity and inclusion circles that I am a part of, Sheryl is not regarded that well for her work, because it has more of this flavour of wealthy, white privilege and white feminism, and encouraging women to lean into systems that may be very much stacked against them. At the same time I recognize that she has done a lot to advance the discussion around feminism and women in the workplace. Just curious about your thoughts on that sort of criticism of Sheryl?

JYOTI: I hear that criticism, particularly in the western world. You know, I’ve given copies of her books to people, for example in places like India and other countries where they have very few role models , and topics like this aren’t even talked about, and they take a book like Lean In, and all of a sudden it opens their eyes to the possibility of what they could be and how they see themselves. So I have a very different take on it.

I’m well aware of the criticism of her, and my view is that I look at the impact of the movement that she launched, and the effect that has potentially had on literally millions of women around the world, who are behaving differently, who are energized by it. They’re all suddenly reflecting on themselves in different ways, and I find that actually quite powerful.

HOST: I wrote a piece recently for The Sunday Times about flexible working and the importance of it for women in the workplace to be able to succeed, because that’s something that at Storythings we are really fortunate to be able to do. And hearing you talk Jyoti, I was reminded of something that someone I sent the article to back in India said. She basically said: ‘It’s a great piece, but flexible working is nowhere on the agenda for women like us in India, because the culture is completely different.’

So sitting as we are in London, here right now, I know both of you work in the US as well. What do you think we, but also people in general, people who run companies in general, need to be mindful of when they build workforces that are arguably building products that are going to be used by people across the world?

JYOTI: Well I think you have to put it on the agenda, and you have to talk about it for one thing. Even if you’re making products and services, and you’ve got sales targets and you’re from a different culture, or you’re operating in a different environment from your head office, and cultural norms vary as we know, you have to talk about it. You have to put diversity and inclusion on the agenda. You have to constantly repeat and reinforce, and this is where I think actually having a value system embedded in your cultural DNA comes into play, right? Understanding what you stand for.

I’ll use Pearson as an example. The values of Pearson, what it represents, are being brave, imaginative, decent, accountable. It’s really ingrained in everything we do, whether it’s content production, distribution, products, the way people conduct themselves. It’s almost like a code of honour, and people are very proud of it. So I think that when linking your diversity inclusion work and the messaging into a larger cultural framework that is relevant for the context in which your businesses are being conducted, the markets in which you’re selling your products and services, it all has to be tied and linked and connected. Then just reinforcing that for every employee, irrespective of grade level or where they sit in an organization.

HOST: That concluded our evening’s conversation. We’d like to thank Jyoti and Tracy for their valuable thoughts, and to everyone in the audience for being there.

CREDITS: Nevertheless is a Storythings production. Series producer is Renay Richardson. Executive producers are Nathan Martin and Anjali Ramachandran. This episode was produced and written by Storythings. Live event production by Amanda Murray and Jo Moon Price. Live audio Recording by Spellbinder. Music and sound design by Jason Oberholtzer and Michael Simonelli, supported by Pearson and presented by me, Anjali Ramachandran.

Full transcripts, additional reading and episodes can be found at Neverthelesspodcast.com. Subscribe for free. Rate and review on Apple Podcasts, or your favourite podcast app.


Nevertheless is a a podcast celebrating the women transforming teaching and learning through technology. Supported by Pearson. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, TuneIn or RadioPublic.