Small Businesses as a Platform for Change:

Discussing Social Responsibility, with Field & Fire Bakery + Café

Published in

our ruminations

25 min readSep 29, 2020

In this episode, Kara chats with Julie and Shelby Kibler, owners of Field & Fire Bakery + Cafe. Seven years into the life of their business — which now has two locations in Grand Rapids, Michigan — Julie and Shelby are beginning to examine how they as a small business can contribute to and support social justice change.

The thoughtful focus on tradition, slow food, and “doing everything from scratch the long way” goes beyond the bakery. They are a frontier, spilling into the streets and into the community. Not simply nourishing bodies but the minds and hearts of everyone, equally. One can visualize while listening to the interview the exchange of ideas and beliefs fermenting change for equality and justice.

Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, TuneIn, and more.

Julie & Shelby Kibbler

Owners

With Julie running the business side of things and Shelby managing the kitchen, this husband and wife pair have built a thriving locally-sourced organic bakery in Grand Rapids, MI. Shelby is an artisan baker with well over 20 years of experience and is the former principal at Zingerman’s baking school. When their shop first opened, Shelby stated, “What I’m hoping to do is bring the best bread I can bake to the area.”

Field & Fire Bakery & Café

Grand Rapids, Michigan

In 2013, Field and Fire began to serve their community handmade, fresh from the wood fire oven, local organic bread. Three years later, the bakery expanded to a café and restaurant. It’s not simply Shelby and Julie’s passion and craft that brings love and intentional care to their craft. They are keenly aware and respect the “long-standing tradition of lengthy fermentation that draws out the flavor from the grains and also enhances the nutritional value of our baked goods”.

What Julie & Shelby Are Reading Today

Sweet Charity? Emergency Food and the End of Entitlement by Janet Poppendieck
Toxic Charity: How Churches and Charities Hurt Those They Help (and How to Reverse It) by Robert D. Lupton
So You Want to Talk About Race by Ijeoma Oluo
My Grandmother’s Hands: Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending Our Hearts and Bodies by Resmaa Menakem
Mindful of Race: Transforming Racism from the Inside Out by Ruth King
White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo

Episode Transcript

Kara [0:03]

Hey, this is Kara from Ruminate, and you’re listening to Questionable Food.

Shelby [0:10]

All these crises coming at us at one time have somehow freed me from that feeling. So now I’ve just feel eager to take a bite out of it and just get in there and see what I can make happen

Julie [0:24]

In this day and age, you can’t afford not to have an opinion and what’s happening in society and what’s happening in the world. I have felt very comfortable just kind of standing my ground as feeling like a socially responsible business.

Kara [0:43]

In this episode, I chat with Julie and Shelby Kibler, owners of Field & Fire Bakery + Cafe. Seven years into the life of their business — which now has two locations in Grand Rapids, Michigan — Julie and Shelby are beginning to examine how they as a small business can contribute to and support social justice change.

When I chatted with you both last week, we talked about a recent journey that you guys have had, especially through the past few months of the COVID 19 pandemic, the momentum within the Black Lives Matter movement and this journey that you guys have taken to expand or evolve these core values that you’ve built your business on. Can you share a bit about that journey your business has sort of experienced since early March?

Shelby [1:30]

Yes, of course. At the beginning of the COVID-19 crisis, there was really a grave concern, of course across the world obviously and we felt it immediately. So, we tried to stay open at our cafe where we are a full-service restaurant pretty much and yet, everybody was just staying home. And so, after a couple of weeks of scraping together what we thought was going to work for us, we decided to close. And so, during that time, the bakery was still operating because we have customers who still buy the bread. And the place where we’re located was not closed. So, we were able to maintain a retail presence during that time. While this was unfolding, we were concerned about our staff, because obviously, there was a lot of governmental things happening to help people get through the crisis. But in the short term, we felt like, whoa, man, what are we going to do? How are we going to make it through this crisis? And how are our employees going to make it? So, there was a lot of stuff going on early for us that was hard to navigate and a little nerve-wracking. Just like all the rest of business owners in the entire country, I’m sure you know, like, it was just a really crazy time. And that’s when Julie thought of the idea of having a campaign on GoFundMe that could help us have our customers support us. You know, people who are familiar with us and shop with us on a regular basis might be inclined at a moment like a crisis like this to give money to help support our staff. So, she started a campaign and that campaign allowed us to start supporting the people who work for us who maybe had kids who are just born in the last couple of years, and they maybe were not eligible for unemployment benefits right away. So, there was this need among our staff. So, we started that, and that felt really good. That was one way we could react in a way that was helpful to our staff, while at the same time not being a drain on our business’s financials. The business was struggling for money when COVID started. So, like we didn’t have a bunch of cash that we could sit on and start to use to help us get through the crisis. We needed cash also. So, we started to apply for every grant that was possible, every loan that was possible, and fortunately, at both locations, we were able to land grants and loans. And those things really have helped us sustain the businesses through time. During this crisis, while we were scrambling to access some of the money that was available through the grants and loans, then the Black Lives Matter movement popped up. And what happened I think was, you know, when George Floyd was murdered, and everybody could actually see this murder and start to participate in a shared feeling of rage, and I don’t know exactly how to describe it, it just feels like our whole country was aghast at that particular murder. And yet we all realize that it was one in a string for going back hundreds of years of things that just were unacceptable and it for whatever reason right now, that murder jelled for people, and it’s not everybody, I’m sure, but I feel like I’m caught up in a feeling that I don’t want to get rid of like I’m ready to make a change. So right then we decided as a couple that we were going to try to share information with our staff about how we were feeling in regards to race and equity and food access and all sorts of different things that are social policy related. So, we got out there and sent an email to our staff and just said, Hey, this is how we’re feeling and this is our position on the race manner. And that was Julie’s idea. Let me make sure to give her the credit. I was feeling the feelings, but I didn’t have it in me to send out the email until she encouraged me. And so, I wrote an email, a very passionate email. I’m very passionate about this subject. So as soon as we did that, then everybody in our organization, I think, was able to say, Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad it worked for Field and Fire because they really care about this subject and I also really care about this. So, then I was able to get this momentum going in our organization where now we’re on a track that is going to change our future for real like we’re policy-driven. We’re going to try to get in there. We have to learn obviously, at what we can do. So, right now we’re in an information gathering and learning period. I was on the Bread Baker’s Guild and the Bread Bakers Guild sends me a list of all the emails that everybody sends out every day talking about bread. And one of them was this Black Live Matter Bakers Against Racism concept where you could make a product and sell that and give all or most of the proceeds to an organization that is involved in helping people get justice, you know, whether it’s racially related. We wanted to choose an organization in our community that we could support with this sale, and we chose, what do we choose Julie?

Julie [7:39]

We chose an organization called Our Kitchen Table. So as far as an organization, they’re really focused on food access and food equity. So, a lot of what they do is provide education and community outreach, as well as advocacy. So, they are out there building raised beds for people on the southeast side of Grand Rapids. They’re out there teaching these homeowners how to seed a garden and grow a garden and teaching them about the value of organic food and how that is an investment in health, as well as working with the farmers market on that side of town to also just make sure there, there are available options for healthy produce and locally grown foods.

Shelby [8:45]

The goal was to give to somebody, right here, who was helping affect people of color’s lives in a positive direction. So, we jumped on board with the Baker’s Against Racism and we’re able to make cookies and a special bread and had our customers support that organization through purchasing baked goods.

Kara [9:08]

That’s fantastic. And so, Julie, I guess two things. But first to back up to the letter sent to staff, what made you decide that that was something that you guys wanted to do together that you wanted to put your stance in words for them to read? What went through your mind with regards to that?

Julie [9:26]

I really feel it’s important to stay connected with everybody. As far as having a leadership role, that is really important to me to let our staff members know what we’re thinking, what we’re feeling, what kind of actions we can or should be taking, and having information come back from them. So just having that open relationship. I think at the cafe, we’ve always been a little more political in a way that we haven’t been able to conduct business in the bakery, being in the downtown market. So, you know, we’ve taken opportunities to do things like this in the past, and when this incident came along with George Floyd, it was just so incredibly heinous, I felt a deep urge for everybody to know exactly where we stand, and what type of place you were working in. So, there’s no room for any type of racism, whether you think it’s joking, or it’s funny, I just felt very passionately about everybody knowing what our feelings were on the matter.

Kara [10:43]

What was the response from the staff?

Julie [10:46]

It was overwhelmingly positive. We had several staff members, email us back and speak to us and say, thank you so much for sending that out. I appreciate you know, the sentiment of the letter and like Shelby said, just saying, like, I’m so glad I’m able to work for a company with these shared values.

Kara [11:09]

How about the response from the Baker’s Against Racism campaign? What was this response from that one from the customer angle?

Julie [11:18]

I would say, people were really excited about it. I, of course, would have hoped we could have raised even more money. But I really appreciate the amount that we were able to raise, and that there was that much of an interest with our community members

Kara [11:35]

Shelby mentioned that desire to get more into policy work, perhaps, and having that as a goalpost. Where are you both now in this? What is your process of evaluating your place in that ecosystem of change, and what are you doing now and what do you kind of see those next months or year as you figure out that place?

Shelby [11:57]

I feel radically changed by the last three or four months, personally. I’ve always felt some sort of aversion to our social systems, the government that we,

Julie [12:12]

You know, this is something that we talk about at home, frequently and for years. And at this moment, just as many outreaches we do, like this moment just made us feel like this is the time where we really need to engage our business.

Shelby [12:33]

Yeah, it’s changed.

Kara [12:35]

Is that the next unnecessary level of using the resources you have or what makes that business an important piece for you guys?

Julie [12:43]

It’s a sounding board. It’s a soapbox. We have people’s attention in a way that maybe some other folks don’t have. And we can use our business as a force for good as we feel like we have always done but now we can encompass more with what we’re doing.

Shelby [13:03]

Yes, definitely. The social justice aspect, you know, we’ve never been what I would consider activists towards social justice as much as, you know, we’ve been open now for nearly seven years. And we’ve been trying to establish our businesses so like, we’re just trying to struggle through the months and the years to eke out a penny and just make sure we’re still here in five years. And that struggle has been valuable. Obviously, like I, it’s been hard, and I, more often than not have felt tired from that. But right now, because we’re seven years old, we feel like we’ve done a lot of that struggling and I think right now we have a little bit more in us to give and that’s what we’re now focusing our energy towards is the social justice aspect of why is our world so fucked up? And how can we have an impact on that? So that’s been the transformation, for me, as I was saying, I feel like I’ve always had a healthy disrespect for our government and our social policy when it comes to equity and racial relations. And just, I’ve always felt like it’s a tough system, you know, you got this government that is influenced overwhelmingly by money and large corporations. And so, I just have this feeling that rich people can run whatever they want and the poor people and the people who don’t have very many means just get left in the dirt. You know, that’s just how it is in our country. And so, that has been just a personal feeling, you know, and it’s, I think I’ve been defeated, in that respect for four years, just kind of feeling like I was powerless, but somehow the all these crises coming at us at one time has somehow freed me from that feeling. So now I just feel eager to take a bite out of it and just get in there and see what I can make happen. I’m actually excited, Julie mentioned to me a couple, a few weeks ago, I think she could see it and feel it from me, I’m energized in a way that I think is, is great. And I really feel like my position is the owner of two businesses, it adds to it a little bit because now I see myself as somebody that 30 people, we employ about 30 people. So, 30 people are looking at Julie and I, and what are they gonna see? They’re going to see two people who are much older than most of them, actually all of them, right? We don’t have anybody older than us in our organization. So, we’re older, and we’re passionately excited to try to change the world into something that all of our employees feels would be better, you know what I mean, they also feel the same feelings that I feel. So, the people that work for us are going to take what we’re doing and help themselves feel more excited to do something. So, I feel like now, there’s an added value to what I’m engaged in, because I can serve as an example, to everybody who works for us, to help them make a difference themselves. And if I set up systems in our businesses, where we can then make a real positive change in our community and our larger community, maybe the state level, the national level, then that is not just going to be an isolated thing it’s going to build and all of our employees will be able to participate and contribute to that change. So, right now, I just feel like that’s where we’re at. We’re diving in. And you know, we bought probably 10 books about social justice, a lot of them racial, a lot of them about food access, because I did tell you about the day-old bread scenario that we had going for a little while, while the COVID crisis was affecting everybody.

Kara [17:25]

Yeah, yeah, feel free to share that if you’d like.

Shelby [17:26]

One of our customers, who is a long time super-strong supporter came to me and she said, look, I want to donate to Field and Fire, I really value your business, and I know you must be struggling, and I just want to help. And my idea, this was all her idea. She just like, really came up with an amazing concept. So, she was like, my idea is, I want to buy all of your day-old bread at the end of every day because I know you have some and you’re just probably donating it right now. And that’s great. But if I buy it for retail dollars, then I can then pick it up and take it to some places that can utilize it to help other people. And by doing that, I’m able to support financially your business and support a bunch of people who might not have access to your bread, which I love. And I would love to get that bread into other people’s mouths. And I said, wow, that sounds like an amazing idea. So, we worked out a system where she came and picked up our bread Monday through Friday for eight weeks. And in return, she gave us checks for, you know, something close to retail value on that bread, which really helped us during the period when we had not yet received any funding from anybody and our retail and our wholesale sales had taken a dive after the COVID crisis started. So, her donations were really instrumental in making me feel less nervous that my business was going to go down the tubes, right. But not only that, I felt great about the double donation, you know, where we benefited and these food banks benefited in addition, so it was just awesome. She was so amazing to have come up with this and to make it happen. She just got her family and friends to chip in and so there was money streaming in from that group of people. five days a week. And then when we got to the end of the eight weeks, that’s what we agreed on, it was over. And we thought, boy, let’s talk about what we can do to keep this type of thing going, it sounds like a really great opportunity for us. And so, during that discussion, we talked to Access of West Michigan, and we ended up starting to engage with the food banks and organizations that she was dropping off the bread too. And now I’ve got an entirely new area of knowledge to start to sponge up, right. First of all, I got to know what the issues are and so right now I’m reading a couple of books on food access, and emergency food versus entitled food, you know, and that is a huge policy issue in America. And it has been for 40 years now. So, I’m excited to have learned about this and to be engaged in it currently. And now I feel like I’m working on a project that is going to change our businesses in the way that what we do with the food that we can’t use is going to be going to something that I think we can feel even better about than we historically have. So, we’re going to work out a system with probably one or two local organizations that will be able to utilize our bread and connect us in a way to that organization. So, I’m excited about that. I’m sure that all of our employees are going to be excited that we’re participating in that type of a program and will want to contribute. And this is going to give us an avenue for I guess, volunteering, you know, like, we feel like people should volunteer to help people who don’t have the opportunities that we have. So, encouraging our staff has been something we’ve always done, but there hasn’t been like a concrete, here’s what we’re gonna do as a company thing in the past and I feel like we’re going to start to seize those opportunities more and more in the future by connecting with these organizations in a real way where we actually have a relationship with them. So that’s really exciting for me. So that, you know, that’s one example of a way where I’m fired up and that I’m changed, the companies are going to change and what happens with our companies in relation to the other local organizations around us is going to change And that’s real, you know, that feels like a real change that’s for the better. And so, I told you this the other day, I feel like there’s the crisis has left us with a few golden nuggets that we’re going to keep. And it won’t be, it will never be the same. And I’m not speaking in a bad way, I’m speaking in a good way. Like I can’t believe it, that we were able to seize things from this problem that are going to make us even better. But I really believe that to be true.

Kara [22:30]

Trying to think abstractly. I mean, we could hope other businesses are sort of experiencing similar, I guess, breakthroughs and how they’ve been thinking or being energized. You guys have made it pretty far in terms of talking to other local organizations and you’ve chatted a little bit about some readings that you’ve done. Do you have any other suggestions for businesses that might be in that situation? If they’re just starting out and they have all this energy, where do they put it?

Shelby [22:55]

I feel lucky that I was connected by this customer, whose name was also Julie, with two local organizations with food access. So, when thinking about social justice, after reading a couple of books already on both race and food access, it seems like the connection between them is very strong. So, if you’re doing something that’s involving racial justice, then there’s going to be some connection with food access and with poverty. So, you know, our social system makes it hard for people who are not white to escape from the cycle of poverty that keeps them in a position where they have a hard time accessing the opportunities that I have had, due to the fact that I’m white and I have had the access to the white privilege that is just inherent in our social structure. So, I feel like any involvement that a person can do right now with the business that connects them to an organization in the community that serves people who are not white-skinned, or who are poor is going to lead in areas that will open up into both race and economic justice directions. So, I don’t know enough to make any concrete suggestions. But for me, to speak frankly, the two organizations that we were connected with during this COVID crisis, were both Christian organizations. And Julie and I are not Christians, we’re decidedly atheists or agnostics, or we just don’t believe and yet we want to be great humans, right. So, I am so glad that I was connected to the Christian organizations because what they’re doing is helping people you know, and it doesn’t so much matter that the religion aspect of the organizations doesn’t bother me. It’s the fact that when I look at what they are actually involved with doing on a day-to-day basis they are helping people and it’s any human being that they’re helping, you know, anybody who needs help can get help through these organizations. And so that’s going to span all sorts of different labels that you can put on people. And so for me, their missions are what I support, and I’m super glad to have connected with their missions because most of the time I steer clear from religion you know, I just don’t want to be involved. But right now, I actually do want to be involved in these organizations because I support what they’re doing.

Kara [25:41]

That’s really interesting. Do you feel that if you hadn’t had customer Julie as a connection that you would have picked one of those out? Do you think that you might have maybe not picked them from the pile?

Shelby [25:52]

I definitely would not have.

Kara [25:55]

No, that’s a really interesting piece.

Shelby [25:57]

Yeah, I guess I’m anti-religion. You know, like I just, I have a hard time with religion in general, just because, I’m a history major, right? So, I just see all of the death and destruction that religions have wrought upon the world. And they’ve done a bunch of good also, I’m not gonna lie, I see both sides, but I’m just not into religion. So, I would avoid religious organizations just by my general nature. So, yes, this crisis brought me connected to a couple of organizations that are both absolutely Christian and somehow right now I feel like I support their Christian missions.

Kara [26:36]

Exponential areas of sort of mental growth here? It’s at the same time, I completely understand your point of view so I’m not at all commenting on that. So, getting into like cost-benefit, let’s take this mental image of these hypothetical businesses that are energized but then many are probably beat down a little bit is like I can’t afford to have certain values. They feel that they can’t translate it from their home to their business. You guys right off the bat, it’s ingrained into your ethos, certain values, and then you’ve seen growth from there. But do you have any thoughts on perhaps how someone might be able to even make the first steps earlier than what we’ve been talking about right now coming from that mentality of, I might not be able to afford this?

Julie [27:25]

For me, I would say that there is no wrong place to start. We’ve been struggling for seven years, honestly, and we, of course, had those same thoughts and feelings when we first started, like, we barely have enough money to get by, let alone giving that money to other people, which is a great opportunity to engage more with the public. I would recommend that no matter where you start if you feel like you’re doing something good for your community if you’re doing something good for society, anything is possible, right? So you don’t necessarily have to rely on your own funds from your business or your own personal funds, but if you’re selling something to earn money, like take the Black Lives Matter Baker’s Against Racism products that we sold, like, you know, not all of that came from our bottom line because it was a fundraiser. So, we’re selling these products and turn to then provide that money to somebody else. Yeah, that’s an easy way to get started.

Kara [28:26]

What about the benefits piece? I mean, have you experienced that perhaps, you know, that values focus as actually better for your business, in some ways?

Julie [28:37]

I personally feel like it is. I feel like in this day and age and even before the whole COVID and just the uprising has taken place. You can’t afford not to have an opinion on what’s happening in society and what’s happening in the world. So, I think, you know, I have felt very comfortable just kind of standing my ground and letting people know what my values were as feeling like socially responsible business.

Shelby [29:08]

You know, your question made me think about how we felt early on, and early on in a business’s life, it is, is an extremely daunting task just to stay open, right? So, you’re just faced with all these problems. And a lot of them are economic in nature, and maybe staff related. So, you’ve got all these problems and just getting through the day, sometimes is the best you could do. Like I feel like we’ve gotten to a point now, seven years in, where we’re able to, I’m able to be energized by this crisis versus just feeling like, oh, what’s one more thing just beat me down, you know, so early on, it is difficult, and I feel like that’s okay. And during those times, Julie and I knew we were making a product that we could stand behind, and for us, that was enough, that had to be enough at certain moments to get us to feel okay about the sacrifices that we were all making in our organization. So, being a socially responsible entity doesn’t necessarily mean you have to go out and join a political campaign or, you know, lobby your congressmen or anything. Just making a or selling something that is healthy for people or good for society or something can be enough. That’s enough of a stand for justice, especially at the beginning of your business’s life. And, to me it’s absolutely necessary for you, as a business owner to make your business work. Because without it, you’re stuck, you have to start some other story where you’re not a business owner, right.

Kara [30:57]

You have no platform.

Shelby [30:58]

Yeah, the platform is gone. So, the first and only goal at the beginning should be, I gotta make this a healthy business and a vibrant business. And we have accomplished that at Field and Fire, but it’s taken, you know, I’d say seven years you don’t like we’re just getting to the point where I feel comfortable running the businesses. It has to, I guess, tie up a bunch of your energy is getting your business to be sustainable. So for us, that means, you know, we charge more for our products, then we wish we had to, because honestly, we can’t run our businesses on charging less, you know, we’ve tried it and it hasn’t worked. So that presents us with a problem when it comes to equity in availability, right? So, we’re not a business where people who are feeling the pinch of poverty would run out and spend a bunch of money, right? Because they don’t have the money to buy a loaf of our bread. or come to our cafe and pay $10 for a breakfast, right? So, for us, we’ve had to choose the values that we felt strongly about the beginning. And that has led us to be, to produce products that are expensive, because the values, generally you’re going to cost you money, unfortunately. So now I feel like our attention can turn after all these years to, okay, now that we’re established and entrenched as a business, and we have all these resources and the amazing talent of our staff, how can we turn that to our advantage to help people get access to this food, who don’t have the money? And I think that’s what’s exciting me right now is understanding that I can help do that through policy change, you know, like, I can’t change the fact that it costs me twice as much to buy organic products as it does to buy conventional products, right? So, money is going to be always an issue. But I can help our social system by getting in there, finding out the policies that are keeping our community so divided in an economical way, and help them to ease towards a little bit more justice and equity in the distribution of money. This feels like I feel strongly about that and I always have and I’m excited that right now I feel optimistic that I can have some impact on it.

Julie [33:40]

You should mention the Approachable Loaf.

Shelby [33:44]

The Approachable Loaf, yeah, so baker’s in general, I’ve noticed over my career, which spans nearly 30 years at this point, that bakers are super generous and humble people. So, they always find a way to do good and you know, for some of them is just by making the best bread they can at a reasonable cause with great ingredients and fermenting it really well so that their customers can get the health value. And that’s the type of baker I was at the beginning. But some of the younger generations are more activists and so I’ve been able to learn from them. And a lot of these bakers would think of ways that they could have an impact in a social way that is broader than what I just described. And so they came up with this idea of the Approachable Loaf, which is a concept that a few bakers got together and created, which allows a baker to join into a movement where you make a loaf that is either entirely a whole grain or as close as possible to whole grain and has only seven or fewer ingredients, so all real ingredients that you know what they are and you can pronounce everything and is locally sourced as possible being a factor and then as low priced as possible so that more people can enjoy the fruits of the labor of these bakers. So, baker’s like us, and there are a lot of bakers like us out there, you know, maybe our loaves sell from six to nine or $10 apiece, right, so a little bit more expensive. And you know, it’s an investment in health when you purchase one of our breads, but these breads I think the target is $5 or less. And so the Approachable Loaves give the baker an opportunity to help get their product placed on a table that is potentially somebody who is not their normal customer. And so, this is a way that we’ve started to, we actually just developed our recipe last week, and we’re putting it on the market this week, really excited about it. It’s going to be a journey. But like the goal is that over time, we’re able to get our bread, Field and Fire bread made well, into more homes in our community, and specifically more homes that have less money and at the same time, I’m going to be laboring to try to find a way to help our social system give them access to more wealth. There are two things that are you know, we’re taking a double-pronged approach trying to help in whatever way we can, but that Approachable Loaf concept is really exciting. And there’s not just that one, there’s a bunch of really small movements out there that bakers are joining. And this is one that we’re really delighted to hop on board with and to provide to our community. So that’s been an exciting change for us also, and it’s just a, you know, a small piece of what I think is going to show up in the future for us.

Kara [37:19]

That’s fantastic. It’s interesting to hear all of these different little pieces coming together and I also hear that collaboration, a network, is so important and being that force to reach out to others and learn from others. I also hear a lot about starting from anywhere is okay, I hear a lot from companies that maybe are doing work in that good food realm, using that broad term, that feels like oh, I’m not going to be able to be a part of these conversations or because I can’t afford this or I haven’t done this yet, but I think you both have made important points on you know, you can start anywhere and that interest desire for change has a value within itself. I can’t thank you both enough for chatting with me today. Thank you again for your time.

Shelby [38:07]

Thank you. This has been a great pleasure.

Julie [38:09]

Thank you.

Kara [38:15]

To learn more about Field and Fire including a suggested reading list from Julie and Shelby, follow the link in this episode’s description. To visit Field and Fire directly go to fieldandfire.com