Founders of Web 3 Podcast Series-Building Startups to Further Bitcoin & Self Sovereignty, Jameson Lopp of Casa

Founders of Web 3 is a podcast series hosted by Outlier Ventures Founder & CEO Jamie Burke where he introduces you to the entrepreneurs, their investors and the policy makers that are shaping Web 3.

Jameson is the archetypal Bitcoiner and Co-Founder & CTO of Casa, a startup dedicated to helping people realise self sovereignty and secure their personal wealth through Bitcoin.

Jamie and Jameson talk about self sovereignty as a movement and how its emergent technology can secure not just Bitcoin but a growing number of forms of digital wealth and assets like NFTs (Non Fungible Tokens) and personal data. We explore innovating in a sometimes adversarial techno-belief system, his learning building products on open source and in particular The Lightning Network. And as a security expert we explore the power of open source and decentralised ledgers to create more secure systems.

Listen to Jameson’s podcast on Apple podcast.

Jamie: Welcome to the Founders of Web 3 series by Outlier Ventures and me your host Jamie Burke. Together we’re going to meet the entrepreneurs the backers and the leading policymakers that are shaping Web 3. Together we’re going to try to define what is Web 3, explore its nuances and understand the mission and purpose the drive founders. If you enjoy what you hear, please do subscribe, rate and share your feedback to help us reach as many people as possible with the important mission that is Web 3.

So today, I’m really excited to welcome Co-Founder and CTO of Casa helping people improve their self sovereignty and allow for the self custody of Bitcoin. Welcome, Jameson.

Jameson: Great to be here.

Jamie: So you describe yourself as a Bitcoin philosopher, laureate, professional cypherpunk, and advocate for Bitcoin, and you describe the kind of work that you’re doing is building technology that powers individuals, individuals being this kind of operative word. What I would describe as for a more citizen user centric Internet, and importantly, you’re you’re working both at Casa and beyond around the evolution of Bitcoin. you’ve contributed loads of stuff to Bitcoin and open source from Satoshi physical attack log Bitcoin savings club, because savings plan and even the US Marshals Bitcoin auction tracker, it’s great to have you on the show. One of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on is at least from the outside, you’re the archetypal Bitcoin miner, and so I want to explore the kind of cypherpunk ethos and origins of crypto and what I’ve seen you refer to as the Bitcoin decades. He did an interesting talk called Bitcoin decade falling forward as a Bitcoin and startup founder. I think you also represent a founder type that is quite unique to crypto. And certainly Bitcoin was somebody that is primarily creating a business to further the cause of a protocol. Not necessarily, although I guess, hopefully, just to get rich, as a startup founder. So you’re kind of not you’re not starting from the point of being neutral to your technology stack, which would be perhaps conventional in a normal startup world. You’re also kind of hardcore security guy, but at Kassar working at this intersection of physical hardware and software, I know you’ve kind of moved more towards the software piece now. So kind of making this this digital world physical. And I think you’re you know, somebody’s really championing the importance of Bitcoin and of course, exploring the potential its potential through the lightning network. So normally At this stage, I would kind of summarise some of these history and background and the kind of origin story leading up to that time in in in blockchain and crypto. But as a, I guess, cypherpunk, as you might expect, you have no LinkedIn profile. So I couldn’t find out much more about your background, prior to bit go. And I guess this is tied to a famous article now in the Wall Street Journal about you called living off the grid, how to vanish in 15 not so easy steps. So it would be great to understand, you know, why you’ve gone dark or you’re off off the grid. And if there is anything that you can share about your background, to give us context, your journey as a founder?

Jameson: Sure, yeah, there’s a lot to unpack there. I would agree. I’m probably not the archetypal entrepreneur in the sense that you know, I didn’t go out looking for a business To build it was rather when I decided to pivot my career into the Bitcoin space and more broadly into the personal sovereignty and security space. That was more of an ideological transition for me. And I see, you know, the companies that I’ve worked for the companies that I’m building as a means to an end that, you know, as much as you spoke about the amazing aspects of open source software, and I am a big proponent of that, I think there are some types of things and services that simply can’t be built as free open source software. So that is where the companies come into play. There’s another type of self organisation that I think allows us to incentivize people in ways that are hard to do in the open source software space. So my background, I’m a computer scientist by trade. I spent the first decade of my career actually doing pretty much the exact opposite of what I advocate for now. I was actually a back end infrastructure engineer at a large online marketing company and I was doing cloud scale analysis of raw tracking data in marketing databases to essentially help marketers better target their customers, you know, better increase their return on their investment with our marketing analytic software. And this was not a particularly interesting idea to me. It wasn’t something I was ideologically committed to. It just happened to provide some interesting technical and your scaling challenges. And once I got interested in Bitcoin, you know, I started doing some open source side projects and about a year and a half after starting those projects and and slowly drifting away of what I was thinking about every day and every night I realised that you know, enough venture capital had come into the space that I could just get paid to do that full time. And that’s when I made that transition to start working at bidco and really began my career in the security space.

Jamie: And for those that aren’t aware, but go was a multi SIG enterprise wallet. So very related to the work. You’re doing Kassar. So you co founded Casper in 2018, with Jeremy Welch, who also studied philosophy. So I think there’s an interesting link there between you describing yourself as a philosopher laureate and co founding a company with somebody that I guess majored in, in philosophy. So you were backed by boost VC Adam Draper’s boost VC and then fabric ventures here in the UK.

Jameson: Yes, we had a few you know, early seed investors I think also lair Hippo compound got in there pretty early and have, you know helped us get through that, that pre product stage. And you know, once we got out in to the real world and started getting real customers and you know, that’s when things started taking off. And our brand recognition has really shot up a lot over the past year. A lot of that was due to the hardware Bitcoin lightning node product that we put out. But all along our focus has been on this key management issue. And, in fact, it’s kind of weird being in this niche cutting edge space, because I’m watching all these different teams that are going out there and building very, you know, envelope pushing type of software, you’re creating completely new types of user interactions that they can perform in the system, but the entire time that I’ve been in this Bass, I’ve been working on very boring, simple, private key management. You know, it’s I think it’s one of the most basic aspects of the systems. But the reason that I keep focusing on it is because I think that we’ve still got a long way to go. And that if we want the rest of the things that are being built on top of these systems to actually be usable and get to a mainstream level of adoption, then we need to get the basics right.

Jamie: Yeah. And I know you feel very strongly that this kind of technology is fundamental to fully realising the benefits of Bitcoin beyond kind of just speculation. So what is this kind of theme around philosophy or I guess, within the founding team of Kassar and is it kind of tied to this idea that you know, Bitcoin is a as a belief system as much as a technology?

Jameson: Yes. So there is a wide variety of memes that are perpetuated in this space, I actually I just wrote a blog post, I think, a week or two ago, about all of the memes that we use to sort of self reinforce some of the ideological points of the system. But you know, the fundamental ones are things like, you know, don’t trust verify, or this idea of trust lessness it’s really the idea that you can be sovereign unto yourself into how you’re interacting with the system. And by not relying on a third party, you are then able to essentially do whatever you want without asking permission is that is the permissionless nature, the censorship resistance aspect of No one can stop you because you’re not reliant upon anyone. Therefore there’s no gatekeepers, but in reality, there’s always going to be some level of of trust, because what we run into is that no one has the time or the skills to verify everything. from a security perspective, you know, all the way from software that we’re most people are not programmers, they can’t read the code, even if it is available to them all the way down to the hardware level, where, you know, almost nobody can verify hardware, even if it’s open hardware, which is also pretty rare in and of itself. So the question that it really comes down to in my mind is how do we build systems where we can help people improve their security posture and minimise trust as much as possible, while admitting that we can never fully eliminate it. But doing this in a way, where then the user has control of the most important things, which are, you know, this sensitive data, these private keys and then we Build the rest of the software, the rest of the layers of abstraction on top of it, just to make it easy for the user. So, one, one meme that we’ve kind of started propagating ourselves at Casa is you know, we’re not here to hold your keys. We’re here to hold your hand. So how do we help people without becoming a potential point of failure ourselves? That’s really, I think, one of the trickiest aspects.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really interesting the the art or the power of mimetics in the crypto space. I don’t want to go too much into the politics of within and around the community of Bitcoin so that you get asked about that all the time. But as a founder, I think it’s interesting to understand, you know, the challenges of innovating within this kind of within a belief system in a way I know, you and your family were famously swatted by other elements of the community, as a founder in Bitcoin and trying to innovate Bitcoin what are the challenges there?

Jameson: It is fascinating in the sense that, you know, you can come into conflict potentially with people in your own organisation, with other organisations in the space, even outside of just Bitcoin ideology. There’s also the cyber security in general space where you often have different security experts and organisations that are kind of sniping at each other on a regular basis. And, you know, it’s an adversarial environment from a variety of different perspectives. And the, you know, the incident that happened to me, as far as I’m aware, was not due to ideology, it was more a result of the volatility of the space and you know, these hype cycles and the fact that I went from having very few people paying attention to me to having hundreds of thousands of people paying attention to me, and it’s just sort of a Law of numbers type of game where eventually if you have enough people paying attention to you, there’s going to be a few of them in there that are going to be a little unhinged or going to be willing to do things that you would not expect the average person would be willing to do. And I think that that is actually helped me transform my life. You know, I basically burned down my entire, like legal existence and started over again from scratch. And it was a project for me it was a journey, I was trying to take things to the extreme, just so that I could better understand like, what really is the state of privacy in this space and in the real world, what can you do if you want to protect yourself from these type of elements and the internet in general, is an adversarial environment. And that’s one of the things that I realised is I’ve been advocating for Bitcoin for a long time because it creates the opportunity for asymmetric defence. Basically cryptography in general allows normal humans to create a level of defensive capability for their data that has never really been possible before this modern era. And now as we start to digitise other things, we can potentially also protect those things as assets with this asymmetric capability. But the flip side of that is that we’ve also created these fairly anonymous systems where when someone is able to, for example, place a phone call completely anonymously, to your local law enforcement department and say the magic words that get them to send out the SWAT team. What you have there is an asymmetric attack or someone is essential. Only spending probably a few dollars worth of resources to then get potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer resources deployed as an attack against a specific target. So, you know, this is the kind of the craziness that the technology and your exponential change is causing in the world is that some of these existing systems are having trouble basically catching up. And and that’s where, unfortunately, a lot of the onus comes down on to each and every one of us to keep up with all of these changes, otherwise, we potentially become vulnerable to them. And you know, that’s, I think one of the big value propositions of Casa is that, you know, we are specifically staying on top of all of the changes in Bitcoin and cybersecurity in general. And our customers can rely on us to build things and to inform them of the important changes so that they don’t have to be focused on that. They can go about Their lives.

Jamie: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s really interesting to think that, you know, what happened to you and more generally, what might be going on in the crypto space is perhaps a precursor to what might become more prevalent across the internet. And of course, as you say, it’s not specific to, to the Bitcoin space, you know, people get swatted all the time, for various reasons. So hopefully, that story doesn’t put people off entering the space. But it is interesting, depending on what level you’re operating in this industry, if you can call it that, but that this is an aspect that you kind of have to deal with, with a certain level of fame. So you could be working on any number of things. Why is it that making Bitcoin accessible? Or I don’t know if you would call this kind of the product ization of Bitcoin? Why is that so important to you?

Jameson: Well, you know, it’s actually a great environment for us to be Talking about this because what we’re really talking about is power dynamics. And the reason why I originally got interested in Bitcoin, there were several of them. You know, there was, of course, the computer science aspect of Oh, this is a really cool technology and it’s solving some problems I haven’t thought about before. But at a more philosophical level, as I started thinking about money as just an abstract concepts, and the idea that our money is essentially defined by a tiny elite group of people who convene behind closed doors and make decisions without our input. I felt like applying open source collaborative principles to the idea of money seemed like a logical thing where you know, maybe it would result in the quote unquote ideal money at the end. least I believe what we’ve seen over the past decade is that when you apply this type of principle, you could call it a governance model or lack of governance model to building out a monetary system, it seems to me that at the very least it results in the least amount of harm, or the least amount of harmful changes being made to the system. So you no longer have a small group of people that can make changes to the system that perhaps benefit them or their friends or other cronies while causing harm and, you know, being at the detriment of the greater community and ecosystem as a whole. So, you know, as we try to build out this ecosystem, I just want more and more people to be able to take advantage of it. And you know, that will grow the network effect that will make the entire network stronger. This is a numbers game. And if we really want to compete against, you know, first World Order currencies, then we need to be able to, you know, make that value proposition available to people. At least in the very early days I was evangelising Bitcoin to friends, family and co workers. It was a really hard sell. And quite frankly, that’s because those of us in first world countries have pretty decent financial infrastructure access. So it’s kind of ironically, easier to quote unquote, sell the idea of Bitcoin to someone who lives in a country with terrible financial infrastructure. Someone who has experienced hyperinflation, they just get it. It’s not hard to explain why Bitcoin is preferable than an existing your central bank controlled currency but on the first roadside, you have to get more abstract and theoretical and pose, you know, scenarios that some people may find ludicrous because they’ve never experienced them. But you know, now we’re starting to experience some interesting scenarios here in the United States. So I think, you know, reality is, is coming around.

Jamie: Yeah, I think I think that whole whole thing is the whole paradigm is certainly mainstreaming right now. So you mentioned open source again. And, you know, I think on the one hand, you’ve clearly contributed a lot of open source for the public good. On the other hand, you know, you are now obviously building a business. How do you balance the debate internally within the startup around? What should be proprietary and what should be open source?

Jameson: Yeah, I mean, it’s tricky because we have people from time to time, push back on AI stuff like Why don’t you open source this or that and, you know, we have open source All the stuff around our Bitcoin lightning node product, we did that, you know, well before we stopped actually selling and shipping them. And once we did stop selling and shipping them, we then completely opened up the like how to build your own from scratch just to make it more available to people. On the the key management side, it becomes tricky because, well, there’s multiple ways that you can look at open source projects, not everyone open sources code for the same reasons. For us because we’re a security company it would be more from the security perspective than for example, the like community building or open governance perspective. Obviously, we’re a company and the the final say is going to come down to me and other C level people at the company about what direction we’re taking things. But from a security perspective, our app for example is on iOS Android. And those platforms actually don’t provide ways for you to verify the code that is running on them. So, you know, we’ve had this discussion a number of times of, Should we open source our mobile app. And ultimately, it comes down to what we could and might make some people feel better. But it’s just going to be a feel good thing, because they’re not going to be able to take our code and build it and compare it to the code that is deployed out to those app stores and running on their phones. So instead, we took a slightly different perspective and said, well, while you can’t verify the code that is running on your phone, what you can do is follow these instructions that we actually send to every user when they set up their wallet of how do you set up a sort of mirror watch only wallet using completely open source software that you can then use to Verify that it is, you know, creating the exact same deposit addresses and basically, you know, following the rules of the protocol that you would expect that, you know, Casa is not malicious and trying to trick you into you’re sending your money to a third party. So as a security guy, I mean, do you think that tokenization allows for more secure open source systems? Could you think of Bitcoin as like a massive bug bounty, right? If normally, a hack would mean you would get access to some data. But hacking in this context means you can access money that you can then anonymous money or pseudo anonymous money that you can very quickly move out. Do you think tokenization is a benefit to open source, generally open source systems.

So this, you know, comes down to I think adversarial environments, if we’re talking about open source from a security perspective. You know, the whole idea is that by really laying your cards on the table, you allow anyone to more easily attack, whatever you’ve built and find weaknesses. And when you are doing this in the context of money or assets or some sort of digital bearer value, where an attacker would be able to essentially abscond with that value, if they find the right bug, then you have created an extremely strong incentive, where you know, the, the system is providing its own bug bounty. And that seems to work pretty well. But there are of course, examples otherwise, where some of these systems may be so tiny and no one’s paying attention to them. Then they could go along and offer operate for a period of time before someone bothers to actually look at them closely enough. And in some cases, that means, you know, millions or 10s of millions of dollars being put into the system before it gets taken as a bug bounty. So it’s it’s some interesting trade offs to see, you know, throughout the history of these systems of how that works. And the result, of course, is they’re all learning experiences. And then hopefully, people will be more careful about how they deploy and scale up these types of systems in the future.

Jamie: So you mentioned earlier, when he first launched, you were kind of doing both the hardware and the software piece and trying to innovate with lightning network nodes. I know you had a lot of learnings from that. Can you kind of talk us through that journey? Because you were obviously one of the first startups out there that were trying to do this at scale?

Jameson: Yes, so the very high level mission at Casa is to help people improve their personal sovereignty. So the the first obvious way for us to do that was to help people self custody, help them manage their private keys. This is very sensitive data where you need to make sure no one can get those private keys that is not supposed to have them. And even more importantly, we found, you know, you need to protect the user from their own ignorance or their own mistakes. You have to realise that users are human, they will occasionally do stupid things. And we need to build these systems in a resilient and robust way so that a single mistake is not going to be catastrophic. But on the hardware side, that was what we kind of saw as the second step forward. So first, you secure your keys. Next step is that you actually validate the transactions that you’re receiving to make sure that no one’s defrauding you, you know, this gives you that next level of trust lessness that you’re receiving Actual Bitcoin and not some fake transaction that somebody made up and, you know, just had appear in your software wallet. So this was supposed to be the logical continuation of that since lightning was also coming out at the same time, we thought that was a great add on because it also speaks towards the scalability of Bitcoin through second layer protocols. And essentially, you know, we we went from doing like I was saying this basic key management stuff to now doing the more cutting edge lightning network stuff. And lightning network is just progressing so quickly. The pace of development is so fast, new things are coming down the line on basically a monthly basis. It was very challenging for us from from a number of different perspectives. We knew that it would be challenging to have a hardware device that would be operating inside of a network that we had no insight into no control over. So obviously people plugging into their networks and we found all kinds of fun, crazy edge cases that would cause the networking stuff to not work for one reason or another. So there was a much higher, you know, support load on that because of the much higher level of variables and unforeseen situations. Also, like I said, the development pace was so high, you know, there was a lot more load on our own developers just to keep up with what was coming down the line. And then eventually, what we realised is that while we had been trying to build two different products that were meant to eventually merge into this, you know, greater idea of personal sovereignty, our actual customer base ended up being different. We ended up really having more of a divergent customer base, where the focus who were interested in that private key management, or one segment and then the folks that were interested in the Bitcoin lightning node stuff or another. And this latter segment was more of the hobbyist enthusiast, Tinker technical type, and they really wanted to get under the hood of this node and you know, do stuff on the command line, etc, etc. Whereas casas ethos is to make things as simple as possible and to, you know, abstract away these complexities. So there ended up being a fair amount of friction there due to just kind of different requirements and expectations between these different customer segments. And eventually, we decided that, you know, we were looking at the business and the private key management was just doing a lot better from a business perspective. The main reason for that is because we’re just talking about much more value. This is people potentially needing to secure their life savings. Whereas on the lightning node side of things, we’re talking about playing around with maybe a few hundred or a few thousand dollars at most, because this is meant to be a more retail payment application type of thing. So there was just so much more value and need for security for your life savings versus making retail payments that after a year and a half or so it just became pretty obvious that we needed to focus on the former. And we can always come back to the ladder as the technology continues to mature.

So as a co founder, I, you know, an entrepreneur working with other entrepreneurs, when you hit an inflection point like this with such an mission driven business, how do you and I follow the rationale for the argument for the pathway that you took? Because clearly, that’s where the kind of growth customer segment is, how do you work through something like that as a team, and I don’t No, you know, to what extent there was a divergence of opinion within that team against those segments.

Um, you know, I don’t think that there was too much contention around our kind of analysis of what we were seeing from our users. You know, obviously, the engineers that we had working on the lightning stuff, were disappointed that we didn’t want to continue it for the foreseeable future, is one of those moments where, you know, you have to make a business decision, kind of, despite, I guess, your ideology, and you know, as much as I would love to keep putting more and more resources into the lightning side, at this point, at least from a business standpoint, I think it makes more sense to to wait for the rest of the ecosystem to catch up, rather than for us to try to push that particular piece of The ecosystem forward, there’s still so much to do on the private key management side, that I wouldn’t really feel comfortable dumping a lot of resources into the cutting edge stuff until I felt like, you know, we had done everything that there was to be done on the simple private key management.

Jamie: Yeah. And I guess, you know, coming back to that idea that, you know, you’re representative of a founder, a type of founder and the type of startup that is quite unique to this space, you know, one that is really committed to furthering the protocol. I guess this is a tension that’s going to be quite common across startups in this space and quite unusual to a typical kind of founder dilemma. So you were talking around this idea that you’re kind of doubling down on a solution that allows somebody to secure a significant portion of their wealth and I know you developed inheritance solution. We is always something that’s kind of bugged me is as increasing amounts of wealth becomes digital, if you follow the logic that increasingly more people will want to self custody, then, you know, how how does that wealth pass through generations? How do you see and understand digital wealth? You know, more generally than Bitcoin, obviously, that it can kind of extend to areas like NF T’s and gaming skins. How do you see that growth? And I guess that’s your market. Right? So how do you kind of sigh that market?

Jameson: Right I mean, Bitcoin is the beginning. I do believe that Bitcoin will continue to be kind of the king of digital money for the foreseeable future. But our thesis is ultimately that, like I said, cryptography provides us with an asymmetric level of difference. And that we should desire to be able to leverage this technology to secure as many valuable aspects of our lives as possible. Whether that is just around your personal information, whether that is around your identity management, whether it is, you know, authentication and access to various online and even real world properties. And then finally, you know, digital assets themselves, Bitcoin and tokenized. Whatever you can imagine, it seems obvious to me that as this entire ecosystem continues to progress, that we will see more and more of these things, ownership, authentication, identity, access, really control to be digitised and secured via practice. private keys. And so that is why we are building a key management platform for normal humans. And I think that’s one of the greatest downfalls to sort of the the open source, development of this space in general is that it’s a lot of nerds that are building for themselves, you know, for other nerds, that in many cases, the user experience the interfaces have not been very accessible for people who haven’t climbed up this great steep learning curve to actually understand all the things that are happening under the hood of whatever the technology is that they’re trying to use. So, you know, potential market size is enormous, you know, much like how you could potentially size the market of Bitcoin to be practically the entire, you know, global money, space, any of these other things, anything That is owned, whether it is a, you know, publicly registered ownership of an assets like you know, land vehicles, real estate, etc, putting those things into publicly verifiable, Ledger’s make a lot of sense. And then any other asset that you would find valuable to be able to prove ownership or transfer ownership directly between two people without a third party. I mean, that is the, the fundamental value proposition I think of, you know, blockchain systems public ledger decentralised network systems, but of course, there’s a million different variables that go into you know, attributes of all those networks that that resulted in you know, a lot of the the strife and drama that you are so interested in avoiding and we don’t have time to go into exactly yeah.

Jamie: So I know you did a Presentation recently on defy and be interested to understand why you think a lot of that innovation to date has happened on a theorem and not Bitcoin and not necessarily from a technological perspective. But is there something different about those two communities as to why that innovation has happened on aetherium? And do you do you think they’re fundamentally at odds in any way?

Jameson: Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing about these networks is that, you know, they create their own communities, you know, it comes down to the medics is that, you know, each of these networks has some fundamental attributes and beliefs, usually that and a lot of this goes actually back in history of, you know, vitalik boo Turin, who was one of the founders of aetherium You know, he was original Doing Bitcoin stuff. And he just wanted to do things that he found to be too challenging or he felt like the Bitcoin ethos would not accept to, you know, make changes to the Bitcoin protocol to do those things. So, you know, ultimately these are all voluntary systems, you have two choices when you’re operating in any of these systems, one of them is your voice to say hey, I propose that we do these things make these changes support X, Y or Z. And if voice fails, then your only other option is exit. And of course, we have seen many different people and entities end up choosing the exit option from not only Bitcoin but from other networks and you know, ending up with forks of forks or forks or forks. And it really is a fascinating evolution to watch this happen. You know, there are many parallels with things like religion for example, you know, In various sects, branching off from different religions over history, but you know, one of the differences, I think between like a theorem and Bitcoin is that a theorem wants to be as many things as possible and wants to be a more general platform. You know, I sometimes refer to it as a kitchen sink protocol, you know, that they want for you to be able to build anything that you can imagine, essentially. And you know, there there are pros and cons to that. from a security perspective, I think it becomes a nightmare. And you know, Bitcoin i think is more conservative and security consciousness or security conscious, and will prefer to say, No, you can’t do all of those things. Or if you want to do them, you have to put a lot more effort into figuring out how to do them. So for example, with a theorem that has much more complex smart contracting, scripting functionality, where essentially you can write these complex operations, that then everyone on the network will run those operations and will verify that they performed and create the output as expected. on Bitcoin, the ethos is more, that you should use the blockchain as little as possible. And if you’re performing complex computations, you don’t need to have everybody else on the network, perform those computations. Instead, all you need to do is perform the computation yourself and then post a proof onto the blockchain that is easily verifiable. Now that ends up being a lot more complicated, at least up to today. But I think that you know, we’re seeing more tools being built to make it more developer friendly for people to build more complex stuff off chain, but you know, these are kind of fundamental design principle differences and there are many different trade offs the we also don’t have time to go into, but it is one of those things where it’s just gonna, it’s fascinating to see how it’s gonna continue to evolve over time.

Jamie: Jameson really appreciate your time, keep doing all the great work you are doing with Brave, I think it is the killer app at the moment. Looking forward to having you again at some point.

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