Not hindered by any knowledge
How two boys made literature sexy by staying normal. Finally an English version of Das Magazin is on its way.
Toine Donk and Daniel van der Meer founded Das Magazin in 2011. By now the magazine, with its immodest German name, is the largest literature magazine of the Netherlands. Together with Ernst-Jan Pfauth (publisher of De Correspondent) and Tim de Gier (web editor at Vrij Nederland), they organize the popular Literaturfest in Amsterdam that will end its existence in the next weeks “to keep the myth alive”. I spoke with co-founder Toine Donk about groupies, books, young and dead authors.
This is our first client interview in our series Bruns & Niks client conversations. (Bruns & Niks is responsible for this interview and the web design of Das Magazin and Literaturfest.)
It’s Wednesday, May 7. The wind blows. Toine comes down the stairs. He has finally time for the interview. Daniel van der Meer, his co-founder is in London at the Dutch Embassy, as it turns out. In the office it is always a bit of a cozy clutter. It’s an old creche. Our B&N office is based here too. Once outside, Toine indicates that we can begin.
Inaccessible literature
Justus Bruns Why did you found Das Magazin? What was your goal?
Toine Donk My gosh, immediately a great question to start with.
There were a lot of things not happening in the book world. Let me put it differently: there were a lot of things happening in the book world that we couldn’t recognize ourselves in. It was elitist and inaccessible. There was an academic rather than enthusiastic talk about books. And we found that it was nonsense, because everyone reads books.
Bruns Academic?
Donk Well, look, our slogan of Literaturfest is: “Not hindered by any knowledge.”
Bruns Hence the slogan Das Magazin?
Donk Correct. We believe if you can think interestingly you can say interesting things about a book. You do not need to know about schools and genres, but rather what this book says about the world and your own life.
We believe if you can think interestingly
you can say interesting things about a book.
Bruns Do you also feel that you succeed, as the largest literature magazine? If you look back and forth?
Donk You need to see it in different ways. It starts with the magazine. We asked ourselves what are the characteristics of a magazine. What can you do with it to make sure that people want to pick up, plunge into it and build a bond with it. The feeling “This is what I want in my life.” so to speak. Besides good stories, we focused on materials and design. And that way we get the most out of what a magazine can be. I think you thereby reach more people. We create it with attention, make the best it can be. In terms of content but also in form.
Bruns This goes hand in hand. You also work with a nice design office, Vruchtvlees. You put as much work in form and content. Can I say that?
Donk What we always come across is very strange. Is that there are magazines that make absolutely no effort on the design. But in fact sometimes it seems as if…
Bruns As The New York Review of Books? That is quite ugly?
Donk I’m not going to mention any specific examples. Everyone should do what they want. But then you might as well print it out on draft paper. But that does not make it the fullest use of paper.
Bruns Let me look at my interview questions…
Donk I would like to say something. Since you asked about accessibility. Another example is the reading clubs. That is the best example, because we will talk with 25 people with an author. These are intimate conversations, which really revolve around the book. They have an atmosphere that is similar to the way you talk with your friends about a movie. It is much more this way than you are in a crowd and hear professors talk about a book. We think it is much more important that the book comes to life in an intimate way.
Our reading clubs have an atmosphere that is similar to the way you talk with your friends about a movie.
End of Literaturfest
Bruns So with the reading clubs you achieve accessibility? But Literaturfest! But that’s going to end now?
Donk Yes we like to stop at our peak. We wanted people to think later. “Oh yes that was great. That was great and I am glad that I attended.” Instead of continuing to muddle through, and that it gets too dull.
Bruns So tomorrow you get a call from Kurt Vonnegut and he says: “I want for myself a big Literaturfest in Amsterdam…”
Donk Kurt Vonnegut is unfortunately no longer alive.
Bruns [Laughs] … or any other great writer who lives. Look, there goes my book knowledge. Ok well, who’s your favorite author? Then you just go do it again if your favorite author calls you like that?
Donk Daniel and I obviously know each other well. So uh …
Bruns So then there is always something coming. It’s more that the concept Literaturfest is being suspended ?
Donk Yes, and especially the idea that we do it five times a year in the Rode Hoed.
We joke sometimes that Literaturfest
is the closest for us of being in a rock band.
Bruns What if you look at the whole process . What were really the lucky moments? Where you could say to yourself: This is why we do this. Because I know most of the time it’s a lot of hard work such as packing boxes with magazines and ship them.
Donk Our first Festival was great. We had so many positive responses.
Bruns That’s great. You mean at the end of the festival?
Donk Yes the party afterwards was wonderful. Everyone was excited and everything went really well. As an organization you are always a bit worried hoping that everything will be turn out ok.
Bruns Was it stressful? I can imagine that you were super nervous, or did it all went pretty well?
Donk Ultimately, it was really weird. That night while thirty reading clubs took place simultaneously. We actually kept our hands free in case something would happen somewhere, and it didn’t. So then we were just checking our social media channels for two hours.
Bruns Checking what everyone said? In a room somewhere?
Donk In fact it was even less charming. We were seated on the steps of the Melkweg (large concert hall in Amsterdam), because that was where the after party would be. The extra large reading club was also organized there. But in the Melkweg were no changing rooms available.
Bruns Why did you not just attend a reading club?
Donk Well we do that this year though.
Bruns Ah good. Which club?
Donk [Laughs] The largest reading club
Bruns Herman Koch? (best selling Dutch author of the moment)
Donk Yes. Another highlight. There are sometimes Literaturfests that are going so well that you get of the stage like a proud bear.
Bruns What’s the Literaturfest that you really came of the stage as the proudest bear?
Donk I think the one with Donna Tart was great.
Bruns But it was especially great for you, right? A kind of love there …
Donk …yes, that was sprouted there.
Yes, but that was just so cool. It’s just great if you have a mutual feeling about a book with someone. We joke sometimes that Literaturfest is the closest for us of being in a rock band.
Bruns Recently there was some sort of action with (Dutch) publishers who wanted to boycot the illegal downloading of books. Your response was that you just put up a PDF-file of the latest magazine online for free, as a reaction to the stupid idea. Isn’t your success also because you know perfectly how to use the online media and understand what people want? A sort of clear vision…
Donk I think, just like most of the people of our age, it’s all very natural.
Bruns What is it that makes you successfully using it? That you use it in a different way?
Donk For me it goes back to the story I told earlier. To any medium, we look at what works best. So for the magazine we focus on the layout and design. When we do something live, we barely do public readings, because we know that it doesn’t work. And so it goes for online. We build a community and make people feel comfortable with our tone of voice. That’s very important to us. We are not afraid to share our ideas and sense of humor.
For example, with what you mentioned, an action was organized by publishers against illegal downloading. The idea we found outdated and therefore we came up with the plan to throw our latest edition online for free. We came up to two hours and three hours we had done it
Bruns But you can also do it because you are small.
Donk Yes, we love it because it is quick and off the cuff.
Taking over the world
Bruns Daniel who is now in London. It’s a secret what he is doing there ?
Donk No it’s not really a secret .
Bruns I asked Sebastiaan (fellow at Das Magazin) and he said . “I do not know.” So it’s a secret? And then Lotte (another fellow at Das Magazin) told me that he was at the Dutch embassy. What’s going on?
Donk Yeah it’s not really a secret, but we are looking at it if we can do some things in England. And that actually has to do with that we are already working with many with foreign authors who are always very excited because, as I said earlier, that we are addressing literature in a different way, and that also applies to foreign countries. They are often surprised that there are so many young people at our events. So we started wondering if we can’t do anything about it in other countries. First we are going to do a small edition of the Festival in Belgium, September 20.
Bruns Could you tell a bit about it? What kind of writers can we expect?
Donk There will be ten writers: five Dutch and five Belgian writers. Some Belgian writers are Tom Lanoye , Herman Brusselmans and Saskia de Coster. Since we are doing a smaller event, we really wanted to have top authors.
Bruns In Ghent?
Donk Yes. In cooperation with the Belgian newspaper De Morgen.
Bruns Wow great!
Donk Yes, it’s crazy .
Bruns But how do you manage to succeed, in the end you are the Dutch guys in Belgium? And Dutch people are not the most desired people in this country?
Donk We have a lot of Belgian contacts. So in the first place the newspaper De Morgen. We work often with them. Similarly we work with many Belgian authors. It is a challenge to us to work in Flanders (Northern part of Belgium). It’s all going a lot slower. You also notice that there is a certain reserve in relation to the ‘Dutch’ who will come and just do their thing.
Bruns So Belgium first and then England?
Donk Yes our magazine is read quite well in Belgium actually. We’ve got our own distributor now. So every time a few hundred copies go to the south.
Bruns So you are quite ambitious? As your now even considering to work with English authors. What are your plans? Because I can’t imagine you’ll just switch over to English?
Donk No, but then we would just make a seperate English edition.
Bruns So you are considering an English edition?
Donk Well yeah, we’re just really exploring .
Bruns But that’s good because this interview is written in English. That’s a nice scoop then!
Donk Yes for sure!
Bruns It will be a real magazine?
Donk Yes as it is now only 50% Dutch and 50% English authors all in English.
Bruns Oh wow!
Donk Also because we want to make the Dutch authors a little bit more known. There are certain authors like Joost de Vries who really deserve an English audience. Daniel is now taking the first steps. Look, we are of course helped by organizations who want to show England what is happening in the Netherlands.
Bruns That’s why Daniel is at the Dutch embassy in London?
Donk Yes. Anyway , that’s all still very in an exploratory stage .
Bruns But it is the intention?
Donk Ambition for sure.
Bruns And would you go to America?
Donk [Chuckles]
Bruns If it already is in English…
Donk Yes English is English, of course. The ambition is to focus initially on Netherlands.
Bruns Are you going to translate the Das Magazin site? There are many things that need to be done?
Donk [Chuckles again] I do not think we can do that in the way we do it now.
Bruns Why is it that Joost de Vries deserves an English audience?
Donk Because he’s an incredibly original writer. He has a interesting look on what is happening abroad. What makes him so interesting is that he writes very intelligent books with a lot of humor in his own way. He writes a lot about people and besides that he works as an art editor at the Groene Amsterdammer (a Dutch intellectual magazine). When you talk with him for about five minutes he has already quoted the Game of Thrones or the Lord of the Rings.
Bruns Also in his books?
Donk Yes. What I wanted to say is that his own cultural preferences are also very internationally oriented.
The challenges of a manager
Bruns When you look back on everything that you’ve done so far are there things you would have done differently? It’s a cliché question, I know. But it is interesting to know what things you wished you’d done differently. Because I feel that a lot of cultural institutions are very jealous of the way you have managed to make literature hip and cool.
Donk What is a huge challenge is giving the organization direction and guidance. While we are sometimes too ambitious for the little manpower we have.
Bruns Yes I know you work like crazy. That’s also why there was very little time for an interview. But there’s always people queuing up to work with you?
Donk Yes but then the hardest part is to keep those people busy.
Bruns Do you find that difficult? Is that something that you have something that you like the least? What do you find the most fun of all the things you do? I can imagine that your moment with Donna Tartt is really the pinnacle?
Donk I think guiding the design direction fantastic. That’s something I‘ve never done.
Bruns You do fairly well. Because you have a very critical eye, as I know very well. [Donk laughs] You want to keep control. You ensure extreme consistency.
Donk In fact , when I see them (the designers) do some other things for their clients, I think if they had me there it would have been a lot better. [laughs]
Bruns Maybe you should just become a creative director?
Donk Yes. I know at least too little jargon. I know. And you know that I just know very clearly what I want. Vruchtvlees would sometimes add to much color, too much illustrations and signs. And than it’s my job to say…
Bruns No
Donk No, indeed.
Bruns [Laughs]
Donk I want to have some consistency. In the beginning , we have used well be many different colors, and now we are using only two colors in each magazine.
Bruns How do you divide tasks? Is it that Daniel is more on the content and your more on the form, the way it is presented?
Donk Daniel works with the authors. And I work more on the design and plotting new projects .
Bruns Your work is also a bit more conceptual , is it not?
Donk Yes conceptually.
Bruns But if you like working on the design side. Don’t you want sometimes a third partner who then would take care of the streamlining and manage several things?
Donk Yes we will do that.
Bruns Man or woman?
Donk Never mind. There are always a lot of women .
Bruns What did you say?
Donk That there is always a lot of women. We sometimes have to laugh.
Bruns Is not that logical?
Donk In the book world, yes.
Bruns But not only that but also because two really nice guys do this.
Donk [Laughs]
Bruns At Literaturfest it is also because you present yourself a bit as chick magnets. You even start the show naked in a bathtub?
Donk [Laughs] We have to go back.
Bruns & Niks is responsible for the web design and development of Das Magazin and Literaturfest. You might want to read more client conversations by subscribing to our newsletter (check the bottom of our site).
