dev_to_dev: Jason Krol

Bios

Ricardo Delgado
VueJS Frontend Developer

Twitter: https://twitter.com/ricardod_dev
Github: https://github.com/rdelga80
Dev.to: https://dev.to/rdelga80
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ricardo-delgado-6ab12a93
www: https://rdelgado-portfolio.web.app/

Jason Krol
Engineering Manager

Twitter: https://twitter.com/shorttompkins

Ricardo: It’s very cool to interview you since you interviewed me on my way into the company. I just wanted to throw it out there, and say that you’re an OG Penn guy, and I think you were the first Frontend guy hired for this project, right?

Jason: Yeah, I was one of the first six in the engineering department, I was the primary web guy, and there was a person for each of the other domains.

Ricardo: And how did you get connected into the project?

Jason: Everybody that started at that time, Josh [Auriemma, VP of Engineering], Dmitriy [Tarasevich, Android Dev, Team Lead], Dan [Tracy,Sr. Director, Architecture], Dave [Roda, Director, Backend], at our previous company Warner Brothers Digital Labs (WBDL).

Ricardo: I can only imagine it’s kind of crazy to have watched things get to where they are now, I can’t even fathom being one of the “parents” of this thing, and now we have so many engineers and things are flying all over the place all the time. What has that been like for you?

Jason: It’s definitely been weird.

When we were first starting there were just a handful of us, it very much felt like a startup. But as we were continuing to hire and grow, and we were starting to get decently sized when the pandemic hit, there were people who had been here for less than a week when we shut down.

And now it’s weird having worked with them for the last 18 months, hardly having ever met them in person.

It’s been crazy to say the least.

Leading up to launch was a pretty incredible crunch, unlike any other experience I’ve had before. It was awesome seeing everyone come together, and seeing us pull off our launch deadline that we had originally targeted a year ago, which we thought was impossible at the time.

And now seeing how many people we’ve brought on since then, yourself included being a good example, it’s just been absolutely incredible seeing the growth and transformation.

Ricardo: Is it more gratifying to be in that startup phase, where you’re literally part of every [part of the code] that’s out and you’ve had a hand in, or is passing on the wisdom of what needs to be done, and you’re more of the rudder than the engine?

Jason: It’s like a blessing and a curse, because when we were first starting out, I was aware of every single line of code and every single functionality.

Then when teams started getting so big, we had to break into focus areas, and I had to let go of being aware of everything. It is difficult to know there are huge sections of code in an app you started, and you have no idea where it comes from, or how it works.

But then again, it’s very freeing because at the same time I know there are huge complex features being built that I know nothing about, and I don’t have to lose sleep over figuring out how we’re going to make it work. I trust the people that are building it, and I can literally turn that part of my brain off and not even think about it.

Ricardo: It’s really cool being in that “pool of people” who are discussing things, and working on solutions, and focused on the collaborative aspect of it all — I won’t speak for anyone else, but there’s definitely a sense of responsibility. I can see where this [part of code] is going, and it’s one thing to be opinionated and bring your own perspective to the table, but you don’t want to trample over what’s been done. I’m glad we’re a team that’s mindful of stuff like that.

Jason: It’s really cool, and there’s times where a bug will pop up, and I’ll be forced to see a section of code I’ve never seen, and I’ll be inspired by the level of elegance and ingenuity that was put into creating it, because again, this is a feature where I wasn’t even part of the discussions.

Knowing that people just created this thing, that I may have done it a different way, but not being involved in that discussion and decision process is just kind of cool to see that happen. Especially when we see demos, and you actually see a feature demonstrated for the first time or even sometimes hear about it for the first time.

Ricardo: I wanted to mention you and I were on the team that won the Hackathon, so you and I have a close working relationship that deals with this — using ingenuity and our skillset to just solve problems.

I think that with Penn, and what we’re doing, we really are on the forefront of a lot of stuff. We’re using VueJS and Python, there’s a lot of really clever stuff that’s happening right now.

When you’re looking for people to hire, how much of a consideration is it for them to be that forward thinking? Or is it more like, “you’re a person who cares what you do, and you’re a person that can come in and pick this stuff up.”

Jason: I definitely think it’s the latter.

I think it’s more a person who during an interview emphasizes and will stress that one of the biggest things they like to do is refactor.

I’ve always found refactoring to be meditative in a sense. If anyone saw your Pull Request with the code you originally started with versus what you actually PR’ed, most of us would be embarrassed.

That’s the same with features. Most of us will approach a feature not knowing how it’ll be pulled off, but we’ll iteratively get to it through collaboration, etc., until it’s like “cool this is functioning, we’ve thought of edge cases, and this works.”

For me, just seeing that play out and hearing people talking about that in interviews, where they talk about challenges they faced in the path, and how they overcame them in the past, whether through trial and error or brute force.

I think for us that’s kind of the most important thing. Less about “are you going to have this ultra-scientific super high level precise approach,” or are you persistent enough to figure this out, even if it initially sounds impossible.

Ricardo: It’s like that saying: “perfection is the enemy of good,” I really like that.

I think in our interview I told you that I view myself as a garbage man, because I really like those low-level tasks, breaking it down, testing, etc.

So, I agree with you. It’s almost like the inverse of what you expect when you come across a person who is so clever and so good, and then you get to their code, and it’s like “I don’t know what you’re doing?” Sometimes a standard approach can be the better choice than a super smart and tricky implementation.

Jason: Yeah, a lot of people get caught in indecision paralysis, and they’ll over-optimize until they run out of time in the sprint, and now they just have to put up something that’s basically unfinished, whereas “we’re releasing so fast, and creating features so quickly,” that it has to be an iterative approach.

There should come a point where you’re happy, you know that it can be better, and that it’s going to be better, but where it’s good enough right now to release, hopefully with minimal bugs.

It is funny because I remember, ironically, that in our interview together, you were one of the few people who brought up such a heavy interest in testing and writing test coverage and things like that.

At the time, we were starting to dip with our test coverage, and so it’s been fascinating watching you take that approach. When you first came on you were immediately heads down in our tests. A lot of people in interviews will say “I don’t test because I don’t have time” or “I write tests when I can,” almost as an afterthought.

It was refreshing to see that was an approach first and foremost in your mind. We have such a complicated codebase now that we need test coverage.

Ricardo: It’s ironic because I picked up testing out of an insecurity because I came so late to coding. I was in my late-30s when I started to learn how to program, and I was thinking, “I have to do the things no one else is willing to do,” because I didn’t know how else I was going to get jobs, so I went right after tests, because of exactly what you’re saying — so many people find them distasteful.

Jason: And I think most people hate them because it’s like going to a psychiatrist, or a therapist, and they point out all your flaws. Like when you start writing tests, and you’re like “this is too hard” because your function is like 500 lines long.

But once you get past that, and you start appreciating it, then next time you’re like “I’m not going to write this awful function again” it really does make you a better programmer in the end.

Ricardo: I totally agree.

For the second part of this interview, I promised a different topic, and I’ve been preparing this question for a week: “What is the best generation of gaming consoles?”

Early generations, Atari, Commodore, etc., all the way to I think modern would be Xbox and Playstation4, and whatever.

I’ll just say my pick is the Super NES era, but because I loved NeoGeo so much, and TurboGrafx 16, and I think those types of indie gaming systems don’t exist anymore.

Which is yours?

Jason: Yes. I would say you’ve answered correctly, it definitely is Super Nintendo. Not to age myself, I’ve been through them all, I had a 2600, I came all the way through Master System, Genesis, SNES, I had Sega CD, Dreamcast, PlayStation 1,2,3,4. Personally I’m a Sony fanboy, I have been since PS2, and I got the original Xbox, but I’m by far into Sony.

But all retro and ROM, I also go to SNES. Nintendo64 is up there for sure, but the volume and library for Super Nintendo, something like 750 games that are just like… a lot are garbage, but some of them are so incredible. Super Mario World, stuff like that. Half that stuff can’t be beat even by today’s standards.

Ricardo: I still say F-Zero may be one of my favorite games, with the best soundtrack ever. In that same time period I remember television shows dedicated to gaming, all those Saturday morning shows like Kid Icarus, and Captain N and the Gamemasters.

Jason: Yeah, it’s crazy. And even for me, Christmas was a big deal with getting a console, Nintendo, NES was pretty big, but I feel like my Super Nintendo memories are burned into my brain. I can remember the jingle of every game I played, even the other day I was listening to a random EDM Spotify playlist, and all of the sudden I was like “WOW! That was an F-Zero song cover,” and it was really cool and subtle.

Ricardo: Besides retro stuff, what are you into now? PlayStation? I’m way into Gran Turismo, I even have the whole driving wheel and all that.

Jason: It’s funny you pointed this out, I’m personally big into Dead Cells, Hades (PS5), and I still make time for stuff like Call of Duty.

But to the racing wheel point, my kid recently got into that in the PC, so part of his birthday I made a cockpit out of PVC, and we put one of those office chairs as the seat — one of those gaming GTR racing chairs, and the whole steering wheel/pedals sort of thing.

But for me, once it was together, and once I drove, I was like, this is not for me. I don’t really care about this. I’m more of a Midnight Club car game.