Venezuela: A Cautionary Tale?
Francisco Marquez Lara reflects on his experience as a political prisoner in his home country of Venezuela
Francisco Marquez Lara tends not to sugarcoat his appraisals of the ongoing economic and political crises that have roiled his home country.
“Venezuela is a cautionary tale. It’s a cautionary tale when a political class is very confident and says, ‘this can’t happen here.’ … Well, let me tell you, it does happen. It happens slowly, but certainly. And it gets to a point where you turn around and you look and you see these devastating consequences.”
There are surprisingly few examples of established democracies that have let their democratic institutions slip away, but Venezuela is considered a prime example.
“What’s happening in Venezuela is really a tale of tragedy.”
Marquez, a lawyer and 2012 graduate of the Kennedy School’s MPP program, witnessed the result of this erosion of norms first hand when authorities found a small stack of political flyers under the seat of his car in 2016. For this offense, he was arrested and held as a political prisoner for four months. His internment only ended when he reluctantly accepted an offer to leave the country in exile.
In this episode of PolicyCast, Francisco speaks candidly about his arrest and subsequent internment — reflecting on what he learned while in captivity. He also describes what drove him to pursue his political advocacy despite the inherent risks, and what motivates him to continue his advocacy in exile. Marquez currently leads the Vision Democratica Foundation and is a fellow at the Harvard Ash Center’s Democracy in Hard Places Initiative.
Each week on PolicyCast, Host Matt Cadwallader (@mattcad) explores the ways individuals make democracy work by speaking with the world’s leading experts in public policy, media, and international affairs about their experiences confronting our most pressing public problems.
Transcript
Note: This transcript was automatically generated and likely contain errors.
Matt: [00:01:39] You got your law degree in Venezuela. Then you came here to the Kennedy School, where you got your MPP in 2012. Was your expectation always to go back to Venezuela and be involved in Venezuelan government and politics?
Francisco: [00:01:53] Yeah I’ve lived the majority of my life in Venezuela. It’s my passion and that’s what really has driven me you know since I got into politics. And for me the being here at the Kennedy School was always a time period to really learn and really challenge myself and think a lot about what we wanted to do in Venezuela. And you know I graduated on May 26 and by June 4th I was in Venezuela.
[00:02:18] There was no doubt that I wanted to go back to Venezuela as soon as possible and I was really enthusiastic about testing all these new ideas that you learned at the Kennedy School. And there’s always this famous line that says no battle plan survives its first battle. And I love that and it’s very true. But it’s also a wonderful experience.
Matt: [00:02:42] How would you describe the state of the Venezuelan government at the moment. Can you give us kind of a short description of where things are what’s happening in Venezuela is really a tale of tragedy.
Francisco: [00:02:59] If you look at that in the last 15 years Venezuela has had the largest oil boom in its history you know over a trillion dollars have gone into Venezuela and you look at the outcome. It’s even more of a tragedy because right now we are the worst run economy in the world. We have finally what is considered to be hyperinflation. So this year it’s estimated that we’ll have one thousand eight hundred percent inflation next year it could reach anywhere from 3000 to 5000. And that’s coupled with a 30 percent GDP drop in the last three years. And when you add to that the humanitarian situation it looks even worse. And again I’m describing you what’s happens after a trillion dollars worth of oil boom and after at least a 12 percent GDP growth average the preceding years so the drop started from 2013 to 2017 which is what we know the oil boom and bust cycle. So you get to know and you add that two thirds of children are malnourished in Venezuela at this moment you have five to six children die every week of starvation. This never happened in the history of our country. You had to go back to Civil War era or independence era in the scarcity of food and medicine combined with its economic and political situation has been devastating for 30 million Venezuelans and it’s no doubt. And this is why I say it’s a tragedy that you see millions of Venezuela fleeing the country at this moment. There’s Colombia Brazil are really feeling the brunt of the massive migration immigration that’s occurring. We estimate right now there are about 3 million Venezuelans abroad.
[00:04:43] That’s about 10 percent of our population. We estimate the next year a million more. Perhaps even a little bit more will leave the country mostly by land because of difficult situation because I knew how difficult it is for anybody to leave the country via plane because most of the airlines have left. So I guess it’s a tragedy for our people. The sheer amount of people dying in Venezuela. And as I said it I think this needs to be shed more. There’s a reason that for the first time the situation when I saw it was discussed in a forum with the RTA session before the Security Council and that doesn’t happen with every country so the regional and security issues is finally being seen.
[00:05:28] And I think these type of spaces I really appreciate because in poorness keep talking about Venezuela and how bad the situation is now this is particularly bad given that for the last at least several decades Venezuela has been a fairly well functioning democracy and you know the trillion dollars of oil money.
[00:05:48] This is what happened. Venezuela is a cautionary tale is a cautionary tale when a political class is sort of very confident and says oh no this can’t happen here.
[00:06:03] I have a very distinct memory of different politicians or different people saying no that happens here in Venezuela. No you know there’s no way Chavez is going to continue. There’s no way that people are going accept this happens. Well you know let me tell you it does happen it happens slowly but certainly and it gets to a point where you just turn around and you look and you see these devastating consequences because it happened very gradually. I mean Chavez in 1998 he used democratic institutions to slowly and gradually dismantle the state. And there’s been many different places in time where it’s been very evident and how it happens is very difficult questions. I mean there are a lot of factors that go into it and I don’t want to also idealized past democracy for Chavez. I think the democratic institutions in our country have been imperfect but they did work. I mean we had over 40 years of democracy an imperfect democracy. I think Chavez what he did was was really deepen the social divisions deepen the crisis of institutions that we’ve been having in Venezuela. I always say he he basically put a lot of our faults on steroids and made it worse. Unfortunately Chavez is really what he wasn’t the cause he was a symptom of of a system that really didn’t work for its people anymore. And I think when you had this oil boom this happened with Carlos on base in the Yemeni you know we are an oil state so we don’t have that many strong institutions. And so when you have all this money coming in it’s like this gluttony.
[00:07:40] You know newstate own institutions populist type activities you know how do you explain that over the trillion dollars coming in. We actually had a 150 billion dollar debt that today.
[00:07:54] Maduro is having to pay and not importing food that we need as Venezuelans so that’s part of the reason that starvation is occurring. So you know how did this happen. We I think we had a negligent political class that let Chavez get to power. I think we had an opposition that did not have a good strategy. So I think the reason that this deterioration occurs is both because of dictatorship and the authoritarian regime but also with certain areas that the opposition has made. I think obviously they’ve done. They fought the good fight. They’re still there. You know we’ve. I wasn’t there for the whole time. I can say I’ve been working more in public office since 2013 trying to do my part to achieve change in Venezuela. But
[00:08:40] I think as a society we really need to see this as a collective failure. I mean when you have five to six children die per week because of starvation when you have you know all the stories of people dying because they can’t get medicine or are dying of cancer. If you have AIDS or cancer in Venezuela or even mild diseases like diphtheria we were having diphtheria now in Minnesota or malaria. We’ve had a 5000 percent increase in deaths of malaria. We got rid of malaria like two decades ago. So it’s a collective failure that it’s really hard to explain the magnitude of human tragedy that that’s happening in Venezuela. So I see it both as a political class failure and it’s also collectively as a society failure and it’s really an important time to reflect on how we got there it’s a very deep question and something that you know I can I think I can give you a couple of elements of why I think but why we’re here. But it’s something that we continually need to think about.
Matt: [00:09:43] You went back to Venezuela to work as an operative in 2012 that lasted until June of 2016. Can you describe what happened.
Francisco: [00:09:56] So yeah I was a political prisoner for four months in those four months I was in four different prisons. I was in seven different cells and I was basically going from Qaraqosh to a state in Venezuela I was asked by the opposition coalition to help organize a petition drive to recall Maduro. This was in the Constitution a perfectly legal and institutional process where we would do a petition drive to get signatures to request a recall referendum for Maduro. We were at a stage where we had to recollect one percent of the signatures of Venezuelans and I was in charge of one specific state a very well-known to East State. And on my way I was stopped at a National Guard checkpoint. Routine procedure I had cash about 3000 dollars worth of cash in Bali us right now it was three million with. At that moment it was 3000. Now it’s about 20 dollars for sodium and give you an idea of the inflation and the problem wasn’t the money. I mean the National Guard there were routinely checking the car. The problem was when the National Guard found these 50 pamphlets at the bottom part of the car and I mean to me I quickly search my car but it was hurry unfortunately. And those pamphlets said freely Paul Little us nothing. And it said respect the national assembly right. Nothing that you could even consider. You know dodgy in any way. And so I remember perfectly like it was yesterday how his how his facial expression changed how everything changed when he saw the pamphlets.
[00:11:30] He immediately called his superior the captain and then we were transferred to one of the nere offices of the National Guard. And then two hours later I was told that I was going to be detained. And so that’s where my process started of for months. I eventually was officially charged with money laundering. If you can believe that money laundering and inciting unrest because those 50 pamphlets that I had in my mind my car and these guys I knew it was a political prisoner and a political case from the get go. Basically because about I remember I was on 30 or 2:00 in the morning. These intelligence police came and interrogated me in a very what. What is really become the modus operandi of the Venezuelan regime. You know they they try to interrogate you. They they say Well are you financing terrorism or are you trying to destabilize a state. You know I’m you know well I really didn’t answer any of their question just for many reasons. And after a while they got so upset that they threaten to torture me and my friend that was with my friend and this is what they do. They try to get some fake confessions out of you. They threaten to torture you. In these cases they actually said that they were going to take us to Iraq US to torture us. Eventually it didn’t happen and the reason didn’t happen. And that’s why I say I’m one of the lucky ones because my case got out very quickly. So we were able to very publicly get out there. That was I was under arrest illegally under arrest.
[00:12:59] And this was even the admission of the interrogation interrogator actually said the way he said goodbye to me. He said you were thrown a life raft. You got lucky. And he said Say hi to your boss David Sweat who was my boss the mayor at that point. I had no idea what that meant. All I know is that his intention was clear and that I got lucky that that night. And so that was just the day one of these four months.
Matt: [00:13:26] So you knew the risk even if not for that particular instance with having the pamphlets in the car. You were aware of the risk of just generally being politically active. Do you think that the risk that you assumed you were taking on did square with the reality once you were actually detained.
Francisco: [00:13:46] Well I think when and I talked about this with a lot of my friends making the decision to go back which in my mind was from day one. There are always risks involved especially when the 2014 the protests started Leopoldo Lopez was put into jail out of heighth high figures from our party were put into jail. You sort of saw the writing on the wall and actually it did help me for many times. Actually the mayor was under threat and so sometimes he’d either have to go into hiding for a little bit or cool down and when we talked about it many times what would happen if he went to jail. And in that preparation for what would happen if he went to jail. You know him and his team sort of started asking themselves the same questions what actually did help I actually read a couple of books. I read up in his book when he was in jail. I read a great book called God in my kidnapping but this man who was kidnapped for nine months he was in NA one by two metre closet for nine months couldn’t leave. And he talked about his experience how to deal with that type of situation and that mentally did prepare me at least a little bit. And I’ll give the example of how it helped when you’re in that situation you know being interrogated you’re handcuffed beat being treated like a prisoner anywhere from the small to the big things being stripped naked and videotaped that they try to humiliate you or are you know not being fed properly.
[00:15:11] Or you make you do these military marches you know all these things you do to either humiliate you or put you in these situations what you’re really trying to do is get a sense of control in smaller routine. So the first thing you need to do if you’re ever in this situation is make a routine you know you’re a very helpless and controlled environment. But there are certain pockets of things that you can retain control and focus your energy and that helped me a lot and that’s one of the lessons from the book. And so to be honest when you’re in that situation all you need to think about is what’s in front of you. The worst thing you can do in jail is really to reminisce of the mistakes that got you there because once you’re there you’re there. And to be honest I very quickly sort of let go of anything and just try to accept the situation and work off of that and in my reflections obviously you do think a little bit about well is this costs worth it is a you know why am I doing this. Is it something that I want to continue to do. And in my mind the answer was always yes. Because from my perspective it doesn’t make sense that you should not be able to do what you’re passionate about. I mean it’s just a matter of finding the right way and I’m not advocating that people put themselves at risk for doing their passion. But I think sometimes you have to you have to do what you feel is right.
Matt: [00:16:33] So you ended up being in prison for four months. You were moved around quite a bit between different jail cells. I mean what did you take away from the experience. Did you learn something that you may not have expected.
Francisco: [00:16:48] Yeah I learned a lot. I mean I learned a lot about myself. I learned a lot about what prisoners go through because it’s not the same again as reading about it than living through it you know in prison. It’s very interesting there’s nowhere to hide.
[00:17:06] You know almost literally. But also emotionally and personally. You are who you are within those four walls. And you know if you’re this way or that way it quickly shows up. And so there’s a couple of things that were surprising for us about myself was how cerebral I was you know and those and those moments even when I was interrogated or thrown to be tortured my emotions sort of I just shut them down and all I do is think. And it held me sort of deal with the situation. But obviously it takes a toll.
[00:17:34] After a while especially and towards the end of my my situation I learned that things. You know this sounds corny in a way. But I do I truly do believe that good triumphs over evil eventually there were some moments in the last month and a half. My friend was released so I was no longer with him. In fact I was on like September we were asked I was told you’re going to go free today. I was actually told today that you’re leaving pick up your stuff. I haven’t signed many release order. And you know after that they were they told Gowdy and my my friend you go first and then you’ll go out later well later didn’t come that day. And so the last month and a half I was certain that I was never going to get out. You know for years to come. And so that last month and a was very dark in the sense that the uncertainty of what to do. And so I learned a lot about myself during that month and a half and I felt that you know I didn’t lose hope. Maybe I was just crazy but I didn’t lose hope. But I also learned that in these really horrible places there are amazing pockets of humanity. And that was also very surprising to me. So an amazing example is in one of my prisons the July 26 prison which is one of the worst where I witnessed torture sessions where you know I didn’t have access to light where I wasn’t properly fed.
[00:18:59] You know I could I was made to run through gunfire because the prisoners were in a gunfight with the prison guards and their Liley machine guns. Wow. With those surreal type of moments you know. My cell was within two cells. There were at least 60 prisoners in other cells and it had gotten out that it was the birthday of the mother of my friend. And so that night you know think about 120 prisoners singing Happy Birthday to the mother of my friend. And he was obviously very emotional. And I would have never expected something like that that type of solidarity that goes on within prison is amazing. You know if you get one bar of soap for 60 people they’ll divided it. You know like tiny little 60 equal equal parts there’s there’s one thing that in prison there are a couple of things in prison that people will get you killed you know first of all you can’t be selfish. Someone who is perceived as selfish and in prison in Venezuela at least is an easy death sentence just because of how scarce everything else is inside. So you know if you get a piece of bread and everyone not have a good time you just eat hole for yourself you’re not going to get very far in there. And also you know I mean this sounds weird without context but you can’t mess with the visit of the of the prisoner. This is something that is sacred inside. So if in Venezuela visits are very weird because in some open penitentiary just almost blending in with the prison population. But if some prisoner were to sort of negatively affect some other prisoners visage or family all that’s a big no no.
[00:20:41] So I’m rambling a little bit but I’m trying to get across as the package if you manage it was very clear the internal prison rules of how the actual lifestyles it the amount of empathy I have for four people who have been through prison and probably have done some horrible things in my life is very different. And it sounds a bit cliche but sharing again I shared prison time with some prisoners and hearing their stories hearing what they went through understanding that some of them are completely unremorseful what they did and they own it and they don’t care. Some are very remorseful or some are just plain innocent. Was very galling. I don’t. Every time I see a prison I see it so differently now in the U.S. or in Venezuela. Every time I see a prisoner I see it very differently. And if I can summarize everything I’ve just said is this is sometimes I have caused a big controversy when I’ve talked to my friends that seeing humanity and even the most inhumane places or even people that you could completely not relate to seeing some humanity and that for me it was also very very interesting experience.
Matt: [00:21:50] If you knew that this was going to happen — that prison was the price for being active in politics and for fighting the Maduro government, would you do it again?
Francisco: [00:22:06] Yes.
[00:22:08] I’m a strong believer that everything that happens in your life is for a reason. And I couldn’t see myself not going back to Venezuela after 2012. I just I just couldn’t. I think I had to follow my passion. Now you know what what I have been more careful. Yes sure there are that I make mistakes that I make errors. I mean those I wouldn’t repeat. I mean I want to be very clear. I would never purposely go back to being a prisoner. I don’t think that’s fair to ask of anybody. I don’t think that’s a fair thing to ask of anybody. I think that if you have an arrest warrant out for you if you know they’re going after you there’s absolutely no reason to turn yourself in consciously or purposefully. I don’t I mean I wouldn’t do it. If someone does it I respect their conviction. This is something that was thrust upon me. Now what I go back to when I saw what I continue to do what of course what I try to learn from mistakes and perhaps not not land in jail. But the problem is it’s Russian roulette. I mean if this didn’t happen perhaps I would have been caught. You know just in my office like other mayors occurred or you know a year later my boss Mayor Schwanke an arrest warrant came out on his arrest. Now we’re both in exile. It’s one of those things that you know another good friend Mayor so he was literally going to his hotel room and 12 intelligence guards surrounded him and took him.
[00:23:34] So you know I guess I want to explain myself better saying that what would I do again was continue to come back. I would continue to take the risk. I think the risk is definitely worth it for the country for what’s at stake. But I think there are definitely mistakes that I made in areas that I would learn from.
