The Best Role Models Don’t Know They’re Role Models
An Interview with Gina Renner
This is an interview I had with my mother on a rainy Thursday night over the phone. This began with us skype chatting and her making me put up my laptop and take her around my apartment to make sure it was moderately clean and I hadn’t done anything too crazy yet. Eventually, though, I got us to sit down and focus on the questions I prepared.
I represent myself with a “J” and I use a “G” to represent my mother.
J: When you think of Moultrie, what’s the first thing you think about or a warm image that comes to mind?
G: Well, the first word is home when I think of Moultrie. Nowhere will ever be more of a home than there, and the other thing that I think about and see is just wide open spaces.
J: You see that as a good thing?
G: Yeah.
J: When you first moved away from Moultrie did you feel confined or less free?
G: Oh yeah! Gosh, I didn’t hardly know how to act. It was like.. I like, you know, being out in nature and a lot of open spaces. Farm living! Um, it’s just more peaceful! It’s peace. And when you’re living in the concrete jungle- it was just a big change for me because I grew of as the youngest of three, the only girl, at home every day with a mom who was a homemaker — didn’t work outside the home. So, I was with my momma every day, and I wish I could’ve had that for y’all [my sister and I] because it’s just… bliss. My daddy would come home for lunch and I’d be all over him. I don’t even know how he ate lunch because I was all over him. Just, ya know, happy to see him. I remember Meme [my grandmother] would read a story to me after lunch and we’d take a nap. Yeah, all the food and everything was just out of the- everything was organic and fresh out of the garden or even out of the dirt from somewhere. Everybody was so friendly. Everybody knew everybody. I had both sets of grandparents right there. Meme’s mom and dad weren’t far. They lived in the “city”, but it wasn’t far. They had neighbors- that’s what we call the city. And then grandmommy and granddaddy DeMott were not far- on the other side of the farm, and we’d go visit them every day. So, I saw extended family, grandparents, both sets, and aunts and uncles. There was always somebody… watching over me, I guess is the… you know what I mean?
J: Right. You just felt a little safer?
G: Of course, Meme had a tight grip. I was a very sheltered child when you think about it like that because the only other kids I played with were cousins. That’s why I am so close to Andrea, I guess, because she’s my first cousin and we would play at grandmammas all the time.
J: Right, well that’s one thing I’ve wondered about because I knew you were sheltered. You definitely weren’t introduced to as much stuff as I was as a child.
G: As y’all, yeah.
J: So, how did you get introduced to computers and STEM in the first place? What’s your first memory with a computer?
G: Oh, ha, okay so you gotta remember when I grew up. I was born in 1962, so all my high school years were in the mid to late 70s since I graduated in 1980. There was no computer in my high school at all. The word computer… The only time I had ever heard of that word was when my nerdy brother, Marc, sent off for a computer from the back of his Popular Science magazine and built one in his room! He was like the mad scientist in his little room. I honestly didn’t understand what he was building, but, anyway, it was some kind of primitive 1’s and 0’s computer but I think it did work. But, anyway, going off to college, even in the registration process, there were no computers. I didn’t go to school with a laptop, ya know. The first time I ever really saw a computer… I don’t even think it was my first semester at college because I went to school thinking I was gonna be a nurse. So, I was in a lot of biology and that kind of stuff. I changed my major to computer science and then I had my first programming class which was Pascal. The language, Pascal. I walked into the class, and there weren’t computers in there, but then was something called a lab and he introduced us to the computer lab! And all it was was a bunch of big, fat, dumb terminals connected to a mainframe somewhere. It looked like a big- well, it was smaller than the TVs I was used to then, but today it would look like a big, fat TV. I didn’t even know how to turn it on! I mean this is in college! But there were a bunch of us in there that didn’t really know what to do and we figured it out together. We just took one little step at a time. We had the black screen with the big, green, block cursor blinking. That was the kind of spread, and everything was command driven.
J: So, your time wasn’t the best for getting introduced to it, so I’m sure it was a big shock when you got introduced to it. Why’d you change your major?
G: Uhh, because in my dorm, my freshman dorm, we were put next door to a couple of senior nursing majors and I thought, “Oh, great! I’ll get all the scoop from them, get the tips, and learn all the tricks and everything for nursing school!” and all they did was talk negative about it. And they were seniors! Of course, I know they had had it rough. They talked me out of it! After I sat and listened to everything to do and they were like, “You better think long and hard about this! We just had to go clean up all kinds of crap,” and all this stuff. And I thought, “Oh, I don’t think I wanna do that!”
J: But why computer science of all things?
G: Because I love math. And science. I love my math and science. I hated to write, and I hated history, and I just love math.
J: That’s even, kind of, out of the ordinary especially growing up in a rural area. Do you think you were hindered in your ability or your interest in technology in math growing up in a rural area? Did that affect you do you think?
G: Well I’m sure the schools in Moultrie weren’t as good as if I would have grown up in less rural areas. But, I say that, but then again, Moultrie had gifted programs and I was in that. So, I was able to get pulled out into some gifted classes. I didn’t feel behind when I got to college, but, then again, I went to Valdosta State so I was still at a southern school. I might’ve had more trouble if I went to Georgia or something. Any math teacher I ever had made it interesting. It was never boring.
J: Was there like a significant figure in your life for math?
G: Uhh… Not really.
J: Yeah? You just kind of-
G: It just all came easy.
J: Right. Was everybody like that in your family though?
G: My dad was good at math and business. Figures, you know.
J: That’s interesting to me because I think of a family that been focused on agriculture for years, you know, even centuries so the first thing to come to mind wouldn’t be math and science or anything like that.
G: There’s a lot of math and science involved though! When you’re buying and selling and acreage and farming and measurements, you know.
J: So, yeah, that makes sense. So, -
G: But that’s one thing that appealed to me about computer science, too. Because, yeah, it’s hard and difficult, but if you learn the pattern, the key of how to work it, then you’re fine. Because, like I said, when I first started, everything you did was command line driven. Everything was a programming instruction. There wasn’t any drag and drop, or any windows. You enter a command and get a result, or put a whole program together and run it. So, it was always trying to figure out a problem and then create something, and I’m still doing that today.
J: Yeah, I’ve seen that in the coding class that I’ve taken. So, before you figured out how you were being treated differently at Riverside Manufacturing, did you ever really think that you were going to leave Moultrie?
G: Before I went to college?
J: Uhh, before you-
G: No, actually, I never thought I would leave Moultrie.
J: Right. Until you realized you were being treated less fairly?
G: Yeah. Well, you know, because even after college I came back to Moultrie. To live. Got a job, and you know that. And… it was partially just from maturing some. Feeling like I could possibly live on my own.
J: So, it was a slow change? Not a sudden revelation?
G: Yeah. It was kind of slow. I was feeling more independent and also realizing, “Hey, I can do more than these guys can, I should get payed more! Or at least payed the same.” I wasn’t even payed the same as them.
J: So, when you think about changing your decision is there any major image or some kind of story that goes along with it? When you were thinking, “Yeah I should move somewhere else.”
G: Umm…
J: Did you always know you were being payed less or did you realize it one day?
G: No I think I kind of realized it one day. I didn’t know it all the time, and to be honest with you I shouldn’t sound too bad about that because they gave me an opportunity that was a great opportunity. To come in out of college. Because, really, you can go to all the classes you want, you can go to school forever, but I didn’t know much until I got in the job and actually started working. There was so much on the job training, so much I learned. I got a lot from them. I guess once I started to get a lot more confidence, I was putting out stuff daily, faster than some of the other guys. Then, one day, I think I finally did hear somebody or something and I realized I was making a lot less and I looked around and thought, “I’m the only female! This is going to take forever for me to advance here.” There had happened to be a guy that they had hired who came from Albany, and he started telling us about these opportunities. And at the same time my cousin, Andrea, was working in Albany, so that was a little bit of a safety net because I thought if I moved over there I could live with or live around Andrea and still have some family around! I wouldn’t be completely by myself. And, oh my gosh, my salary increased- I think it doubled. It doubled when I went from Moultrie to Albany.
J: Wow. Even as a new employee.
G: Yeah. That was just entry level.
J: Do you think you would’ve gone without Andrea?
G: Oh, that’s a good question…
J: I know you two are very close to this day. I know your group from back in Moultrie was really tight.
G: Yeah, we’re like sisters.
*Here I explain to her what the annotated bibliography we made is and tell her that I used Steel Magnolias as a source and she talks about how much she loves that movie*
G: But back to that question. You know what, when I was graduating from VSC [Valdosta State College] we had recruiting day where companies would come around. You know, when you’re a senior and you would interview with a bunch of companies. One of them was EDS [the company my parents worked for when I was very young]! I interviewed with them and got offered a job.
J: Really?
G: But I would have had to have moved to Michigan.
J: Michigan? That’s a big move.
G: Well, you know, yeah, but dad started out in Michigan! But he didn’t have a problem with leaving home and going far away. There was no way I was gonna do that! I could not have ever done that. And I don’t even know, talking about your earlier question, if I would have gone to Albany without Andrea. I don’t think I would have. That family tie. If it weren’t for your dad I would have never gotten out of that feeling of not being able to leave.
J: The only time you left Georgia was with dad, right?
G: Yeah, he’s the only reason that I did that. It’s just like Marc and Sharon [my aunt and uncle on my mom’s side]. They could’ve left and gone and made great money somewhere.
J: Right, that’s why it’s so surprising that you did leave because it was such a big move for you. Even the men in your family never left so, like, no one left.
G: You’re right, and I wouldn’t have… I really don’t think I would’ve gone to Albany if I didn’t have Andrea there and it depends on a lot. I was in my early 20s. I did have a boyfriend, but we broke up and that kind of also sent me into thinking, “I need to get out of here. I need to look elsewhere.” I think that kind of spun me off.
J: Right, it was a combination of things.
G: Yeah, well I would have never met dad because I met him in Albany.
J: Well you could have met him in Michigan if you took the job.
G: Yeah, right, I had chances!
J: Y’all obviously were getting pushed together, right?
G: I guess so! I hadn’t ever thought of it like that. Gosh.
J: So, did you see a significant change in how you were treated in the STEM world once you were working for a larger company? You’ve already said you got payed more, but I know there’s other things than just getting payed that lead to how you are treated in the workplace.
G: Well, to begin with, it was refreshing because my team leader was also female.
J: Okay. Was she nice and helpful
G: Yeah, and she was different than anyone I had ever known. Because, you know, think about it. I lived in South Georgia all my life, even with college. Hardly had ever gone anywhere. Then I moved to Albany on my own, and my first job, really, over there with a bigger company was with a leader that was female and she was from Nebraska. She talked different, ya know. I had to calm down the southern accent. I really tried to over the years, but I was really southern. I mean, you know how Moultrie people talk! They would kid me a little about that, and Mary, her name was Mary Serv, was from Nebraska and hunny she… I’m not sure if Nebraska is considered a northern state. Mid-west I guess. She was as tough as any guy. I learned a lot from her! She was a great leader. She was just as good as any male I had ever seen in a leadership role. She took no crap from anybody. She was fair, professional, and she was just tough. She was tough on us too! She hardened me up because- it was funny. I was a little naïve coming into the big working world there. I had a lot to learn. It was on a Marine Core account so we had a bunch of marines around us, too. We were trying to get something done. Being in the computer science field you’re always trying to meet a deadline. I don’t care what it is. You probably will be too in engineering but there’s always a deadline of something you have to get done by a time for the customer. Once there was this piece that I didn’t understand how to do it and I was going around trying to get help from people because I didn’t know what else to do, and she came in one day and goes something like, “Gina, what are you doing? You can’t ask people to do your work for you!” and I was like, “I’m not! I’m just trying to understand how this works and figure it out!” That was one thing, and she said something else later, but finally she was just like, “Are you just the center of the Universe?” And I guess, in a way, in my mind I was. She knocked me down a couple of notches because I came over from being the only female in a family of children and also the only female in a job where I was treated kind of special, almost on a pedestal for being the only woman. Then, I come over here, and she’s not having it! She just told me, “Look you are not the center of the Universe.” At first I was taken aback wondering why she was talking to me like that, but looking back, retrospectively, I think it was a growth period. It made me understand how I should act in a business environment.
J: I like that. I’ve been experiencing similar things with my research professor.
G: Right. I had to learn that out of school.
J: So, when you are going into this big world of STEM, you have all these men around you, probably. Did you ever think about how you were-
G: There were more women in Albany.
J: More women than men?
G: Not more than the men, but there were more.
J: You weren’t the only one, right.
G: There were some smart ladies too! I had a lot of role models.
J: Were y’all all pretty close, though, since y’all were a small group in the big company?
G: Yeah, I think that STEM women are alike in nature, anyway. You’re a little bit alike, you know, as far as the way you think. I think you have to be born to like this stuff. If you don’t like math, you don’t like science, you don’t like solving problems, you don’t want to stick with something until its complete or figured out, even if it drives you crazy, then you shouldn’t do that job.
J: Right. Did you ever think about how, even though there were more women in this new workplace, you were probably still a leader for women in the STEM world?
G: I didn’t. No I didn’t. I never thought of that.
J: Looking back on it, do you kind of see that’s probable, though?
G: Yeah, looking back on it… I guess so… Well, back in that day the computer career for women was just getting started and there were more women, I think, going into it. A lot went into it, but a lot fell out quick. Only now do I think I can feel like a leader because I’ve stayed with it for so long! I’ve been able to.
J: Do you feel like you’ve had to push past some barriers in that long career because you’re a woman? Especially in like leadership positions?
G: It depends, really, on the company you’re with. Like I said, the first leader was a female in a bigger company. It was a minority-owned company. It was an automated sciences group out of Silver Springs, Maryland, so that may be one reason. Because it was a smaller company even though it was big for me. There was an African American woman in a high position and I think an African American man owned the company. Then there was Mary, another female- gosh it’s raining hard here.
*She goes to check and see if the basement is flooding*
G: But moving on, I don’t think I had to push that hard. At EDS, the much larger corporation, I think a woman getting a higher position there was much more difficult. I don’t know why.
J: Okay, did the fact that it was more difficult motivate you a little bit or did you just keep doing what you were doing?
G: Well, to be honest with you, being a leader meant you had to manage people. At least as a high leader. I tried that one time and did not enjoy it. So, I was happy being an individual performer and being able to just be creative, work with my computer, build, and get the job done. I am more of that type of worker than I am a manager. I don’t like managing people. And at the time I was starting a family and I had kids! I was like, “Look, I got kids that I need to help grow up. I don’t need to be helping adults.”
J: And taking from that, did you experience any push-back or discrimination when you were pregnant or started having kids?
G: Well at that point I was at EDS, and dad was working like in the cube next to me. So, it was a very wonderful environment to work in. We were all young families starting to have children. It was so much fun. It was great. I don’t know if that was just because of EDS. EDS was a great company. It was like one big family. I mean, I still keep in touch with all those people today. It was just incredible. I am so thankful I had that opportunity to work with them. But, no! Golly, it was like going to work with your family all day. I thank dad for getting me into EDS, that’s the only reason I joined that company- because I married him. I always say I married into EDS because I was working for ASG and he was at EDS. Then, we got married and they told him he had to move to Houston. He said, “Well I’m getting married,” and they just said, “Well, we’ll hire her too!” I didn’t even interview. They wanted him so they just said bring her along too.
J: Well they offered you a job too!
G: Yeah, back in college, but ya know.
J: So, why did you guys move to the places that you did? I know a lot of it was because of jobs but were there any other reasons?
G: Well, that first one to Houston was for the job. Then, from Houston to Montgomery it was more for a feeling of getting closer to family because we were spending all of our vacations and traveling going back home because at that time Papa [my mom’s dad] was really sick and I couldn’t hardly take it being that far away. Also, I think that project we were working on was starting to wind down so we thought, “Well now’s a good time to look around,” and we knew we’d be happier if we were closer. He knew I’d be happier at least. So, that was that move, and then the move to Montgomery to here had to do with starting a family and needing to feel like we had more opportunities available. Atlanta had a lot more accounts. We both worked for the same company so if we lost that customer we would both be out of a job. Since we had children now, we had to divide and diversify. If he goes with one customer and I go with another, we are less likely to lose both customers at the same time.
J: Okay, so was it easier to move from Moultrie to Albany or from Georgia to another state? Was that first move the hardest move you ever made?
G: No, for some reason I think Moultrie to Albany wasn’t bad because Andrea, Glenda, and Angela were there and because it wasn’t far. I felt like I was going to college again because Valdosta State was 45 minutes away from Moultrie and so was Albany. I would come home every weekend, practically, and it wasn’t scary. I was making a lot more money too! Moving to Houston was hard, though.
J: Did it take a lot of coaxing from dad?
G: Yeah, I cried through the whole state of Louisiana. My heart was breaking the whole way. It was rough. The umbilical cord had to get cut. It stretched until it broke.
J: I’m sure it was hard. Do you have any opinions about the present treatment of women in STEM today? Do you think changes still need to be made? Do you think it has come a long way?
G: I definitely think it has come a long way. I think women are treated pretty fairly in my opinion… from my point of view.
J: Well, when I was doing my research, I learned a lot. I know that the percentage of the STEM workforce that was women has stayed at a low 24% for a long time, the comparison of pay has stayed the same, and one study I read showed that girls are interested in STEM, but barriers like lack of role models, lack of confidence, and confusion about balancing work and life has kept them out.
G: Wow.. I should be a better role model. I have a good friend I worked with at EDS in Montgomery, Nancy Cox. She was elected for some kind of National leader role for STEM. She is really a big promoter for women in STEM. Gosh, you know what? If you need more information I could hook you up with her.
J: Maybe I will!
G: I mean, really, she could give you all kinds of info.
Then, we wind down by talking about our family a little bit.
I know that was a bit of a read, so I want to summarize some of the best things that I learned from this interview.
I started off by asking about Moultrie and I enjoyed listening to my mom show just how country she is. I love it when this side of her comes out because she turns into the perfect image of a southern belle with her charm and attitude. Then, she went on to explain her journey to become a computer science major, which I never knew. I imagined she had wanted to work in her field for a long time, but the way she talked made it seem like that decision was more of a last resort when she had no idea what else to do.
We transitioned to talking about the situation around her leaving Moultrie. I was already excited about this because I had been basing most of my project on it. I learned that she genuinely never thought she would leave Moultrie, though, and that her friend Andrea was the only reason she could do it. It seems that I had misjudged the situation, though, because apparently moving to Albany wasn’t the big turning point in her life. It was a bit more casual than I though, but she did reach this point when she moved to Texas. She said she “cried through the state of Louisiana” which hit me pretty hard. I know my mother loves her family more than anything, but it seems like she was still learning to be independent.
The last few questions involved her work life and how she perceived herself as a women in STEM. I enjoyed learning that she did have a major influence that helped her learn how to thrive in the patriarchal world of computer science which was her team leader at her first job. This woman was tough on my mother so that my she would learn how to be independent in her work as opposed to being subconsciously labeled as the woman in the room of men. I was surprised, then, to hear that she never thought that she was a role model for women in STEM. Although she never decided to take on any leadership roles, she stuck with this path through the good and the bad, which she says other women who entered the computer science field couldn’t do.
Overall, I learned more about how difficult it was for her to make the decision to move further away from home, how that effected her, and how she learned to adjust to her new lifestyle with friends and influential figures. Most importantly, though, I had a good talk on the phone with my mother which I do not do nearly enough.
