A Product Chat with Amazon’s Dushan Tharmal

Key takeaway: Don’t look for the perfect PM role — look for the role which fits you best.

Welcome to PM Nation (PMNation.co), an interview series where we shine a spotlight on personalities behind great products, learn more about how they got into Product Management, and provide insider perspectives into how the craft of Product is evolving. To learn more about why this got started, click here.

For the benefit of our readers, could you tell me a little bit about yourself and what you do as a Product Manager (PM)?

I work within the Supply Chain Optimization Technology SCOT) team at Amazon. As a Product Manager within the Supplier Performance team, my work is concerned with ensuring that our vendors have a clear picture into their operations with us and how they can continue to be exceptional partners. This involves providing updates around how often their shipments have the requested quantity, or providing them education on how to implement labelling that can be ingested via our auto-receive systems.

So how did you land up in product management?

I started my career at a consulting firm called Capco (amazing people!) where I was doing a whole bunch of random things that were somewhere between Business Analysis, User Experience, and Project Management. As a consultant I got a little tired of advising clients and really wanted to “own” a product, but I didn’t know where to start. Capco was amazing enough to send me to a Full Stack Design (UX/ IxD/ Web Dev) bootcamp in Chicago called Designation (now Flatiron School), where I fell in love with Post-It notes and Sharpie markers. There I gained the skills to confidently transition into a formal “PM” career.

Why is it so hard to get into product management these days?

Product Management really came into “vogue” over the last decade or so. The demand rose enough that now an entire flourishing secondary industry to train these skills has popped up. You can’t throw a penny without hitting a product boot camp these days, and it’s amazing.

There are two factors I see in the difficulty of becoming a product manager: the first is that there is an insanely high supply of great product managers that companies can chose from, so the competition is fierce. The second is that the Product Manager role has become a catch-all for a LOT of different things. Some companies have Product Managers who are glorified BAs writing requirements, some are business strategists, some want you to do project delivery work, while others will pair you up against a Program Manager/ Project Manager to help you execute and manage.

I don’t have the audacity to assume I know what the right definition is, but I think the job search is a combination of finding a company that values you and which has a definition of product management that you’ll enjoy.

“I love my job, and I love the people I work with and I have fun almost every day, and on the days that I don’t, I vent to my manager or mentors and then get back to loving it.”

For those interested in a career in PM — what kinds of experiences should they seek out?

Any. I’ve seen people enter product from being Business Analysts, Project Managers, Marketing Managers, Software Developers…the key is to develop skills in problem-solving, stakeholder/relationship management, and a strong GSD attitude.

As a PM, what do you do exactly on a day-to-day basis?

Which day are you asking me? For the last 4 days I’ve been putting together a business proposal to convince an internal team to onboard a use-case my team needs to have fulfilled in order to scale our platform. Today I’m starting to put together a vision document for a new methodology for us to improve data accuracy, so our customers can get clearer pictures into their operations. It can range from sending out a project status update, writing user requirements, building data net jobs to produce metric dashboards, to just grabbing a 1:1 with a manager to make sure I’m also growing as a PM while I deliver.

What do you love about being a PM? What do you wish you could change?

My honest answer is that I never think about this. I’ve been a PM long enough to know that it’s a futile exercise because the role itself is always changing. My goal as a PM is doing the best things for my product, whether that’s identifying the right person to help me and convincing them, or failing to get that buy-in and gritting my teeth and getting work out the door. I love my job, and I love the people I work with and I have fun almost every day, and on the days that I don’t, I vent to my manager or mentors and then get back to loving it.

“I think the job search is a combination of finding a company that values you and which has a definition of product management that you’ll enjoy.”

So what’s one common myth about being a PM?

That you’re a mini-CEO. But to be fair, I think that’s because I’ve never been a CEO. I’m fairly certain my idea of a CEO is as glorified in my head as the idea of a PM that someone who is coming into the field has. If I ever become a CEO I may turn around and say “Yep, feels a lot like being a PM.”

What is the difference between product management and project management?

Product has a bias towards strategy and project has a bias towards delivery, but they both care about the success of the organization and will step into each other’s shoes (and sometimes on each other toes) if needed.

How do you develop a vision for a product?

I go back to our definition of success, or our One Metric That Matters (OMTM) and think “If we weren’t doing what we’re doing right now, how would we re-imagine achieving this?” and then try to draw a line back to the present. But it’s really an art not a science, so if you ever caught me doing something different to achieve that, don’t call me a liar ;)

What skillsets are essential to being a PM? What skills will PMs need in 5 years?

Problem-solving, stakeholder and relationship management, and a strong GSD attitude. I don’t think this will change. But technical skills will definitely change and again, it would be silly to try to answer that in a catch-all. If the product you’re managing is hardware it’s going to be different from software, if your industry is retail it’s different from health. But I don’t think understanding AI/ML, system design, behavioral psychology, and general zeal for knowledge would ever hurt any PM for the next few years.

What’s the most important quality a PM should have (or develop)?

I’m no expert, but what’s helped me is tenacity. Sometimes it’s a thankless job and sometimes it feels like the odds are stacked against you, so you’ve got to really love doing it to push through those days. But if you’re like me, the little wins of getting that buy-in, or delivering that feature, or seeing that metric lift, are worth it!

What’s the toughest product problem you’ve ever solved?

Every single problem I’ve solved has been the toughest I’ve solved at the time. I had no clue about loyalty when I was building PC Optimum. I’d never launched a startup, let alone a bank, when I did STACK. And now at Amazon I have zero retail or supply chain experience. I think that’s what keeps it fun for me.

What’s the best way to shine in a PM interview?

Showcase your problem-solving skills, showcase your willingness to look dumb to get the right answer (in other words, ask questions even if you should already know the answer), showcase your ability to sell the solution you got to. Oh and take 2 minutes to write down a plan of attack before you jump into it so that you can walk your interviewer through the process.

How do you figure out if you’re the right fit for a prospective PM role?

Ask. Ask them what a typical PM role looks like in the organization if it’s a big one like Amazon. Ask them specifically what they want done if it’s a small startup. And then ask yourself if that’s what you want to be doing, or if it’s the skills you want to develop. “Product Manage yourself” is the advice I give people. Develop a vision, develop a roadmap, and don’t forget to enjoy the process! Because the vision and roadmap ALWAYS change, and most decisions in life are two-way doors. (I wouldn’t be doing Amazon justice if I didn’t throw out one of these in here.)

It’s time for the Lightning Round! What’s a good book, movie, TV series or video game you’d recommend right now?

Call of Duty Mobile.

Favourite place for a coffee chat?

Merchants of Green Coffee.

Favourite dish to pick up after a long day?

Anything from Eat BKK Thai.

Where do you dream of traveling to next?

The middle of a forested mountainside.

What’s your hidden talent?

Can do a legit headstand (sirsasana).

If you ever decided to get a tattoo of a brand or a logo, which one would it be, and why?

If I ever got a tattoo of a brand or a logo, I would question how much my friends and family care about me.

Dushan, thanks for making the time for our chat!

You’re welcome — best of luck!

For the rest of our conversations with Product minds from around the world, visit PM Nation.