How can Asian Americans be more visible in the workplace?
A Q&A with author and advertising executive Bernice Chao about her work advocating for Asian Americans and their careers.
This post originally appeared on Red, White and Brown’s newsletter on Substack (Issue #71 sent on Aug. 16, 2024).
I wanted to share an interview with Bernice Chao, an advertising executive who wrote an important book about Asian Americans in the workplace, with co-author Jessalin Lam. It’s called “The Visibility Mindset.” Chao’s lessons from the advertising world can carry over into any sector.
Some of the themes she discusses in the book are things I’ve now been reflecting on in my own professional life. To what extent are Asian cultural norms we learn like humility or respect for elders translating to the U.S. workplace in both beneficial and harmful ways? How does that work in our American culture, where it often seems like independent, aggressive assertiveness is often valued in the corporate world over community-centered agreeableness or humbleness. In what ways are perceptions about different communities cheap stereotypes, in and of themselves?
As the election season continues to heat up, I think it also spurs questions about how political candidates of different upbringings approach campaigning.
Hope you find the interview below interesting — and it adds more fuel to your own professional aspirations.
Q&A with author Bernice Chao about Asian American leadership in the workplace
Bernice Chao, who works as an advertising executive, has become a leading voice in making sure Asian Americans speak up and get visibility in the workplace. She co-founded the nonprofit Asians in Advertising, which helps those in the field through mentorship, scholarships and events.
The following interview has been edited for length and clarity.
RWB: What sparked your passion for making sure Asian Americans get visibility in the workplace? Can you share your own professional story getting into advertising?
Chao: It’s a reflection of how someone that looks like me can get into this [advertising] field, because there aren’t that many. It’s like: Why are there so few of us?
Like most Asian families, especially children of immigrants, it’s those STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) careers as doctors, lawyers, accountants and engineers. But my parents always knew I loved art. So while I had Kumon and music classes, when things got really tough in our family and we had to choose what to cut, my mom actually kept my art class. Art was the one thing that was consistent, because she really believed if you loved something, you will be good at it. I love the idea that she probably didn’t know it was going to lead to a career, but she believed that I loved something that much.
(Chao studied at the ArtCenter College of Design in Pasadena, California.)
RWB: When was the point you felt like you needed to create a group like Asians in Advertising?
Chao: In my 20s, I was really about fitting in, going into those rooms knowing everyone was about a foot-and-a-half taller than me, people talking about sports, talking about 1960s and 1970s glam rock — and I had no idea what they were talking about. That was me in my 20s. I was in the room going: If I just keep pretending, I know what’s happening. I will fit in.
Then I realized in my 30s, I wasn’t getting the same opportunities [as others] and no one really believed I was fitting in. I realized they’re not really inviting me to things outside of work and this isn’t working.
I’m now in my 40s. Now, it’s really trying to recognize how to close those gaps I saw because it doesn’t have to be me trying to fit in and then me not fitting in, right? It doesn’t have to be either of those things. We can actually close those gaps.
If it is about not fitting in because I’m different, why is it that I’m different? Who else is different? Who else is feeling this way? Who else is overcoming this? Who can I talk to about advice? Why haven’t I asked for advice before? Why haven’t I asked for mentorship? We don’t have to just sit in complacency. We can actually kind of unravel these things.
RWB: Something that resonated for me in your book was your discussion around cultural references being different in the workplace, based on how, where and by whom someone was raised. Common cultural understanding about music, movies and general pop culture is something that often differs for children of immigrants because we grew up with two or more cultures.
Chao: Yeah, I don’t always know a movie reference. USA Today reported [in 2022] that 84% of Asian American men and 80% Asian American woman felt like they don’t fully belong in the workplace. It is all these conversations that happen before meetings or outside of the meetings in the halls that really do alienate us from the conversation, because we just had a different lived experience. We don’t always have the same alma mater, teams, movie references or pop culture of our parents.
So it is acknowledging that and going: How can I create spaces? Or if I’m in this space, we shouldn’t have to just nod along. We shouldn’t have to sit there for an uncomfortable conversation. We should be able to shift those conversations into a room where we don’t have to feel like we’re imposters and not included in the conversations.
RWB: That seems relatable especially for many first- or second-generation Asian Americans. I always wonder: The third generation — our children, nieces and nephews — might have more common cultural reference points than us.
Chao: I do think some of the bias still exists. A lot of adoptees face the same biases that maybe the first generation gets. So whether it’s like: Oh, you’re loud for an Asian… Those comments are still placed on them because of how they look physically.
RWB: Another interesting point in your book was about how Western workplaces value assertiveness and any absence of that is seen as lack of confidence or motivation. Your book mentions the American saying about the squeaky wheel gets the grease vs. the Japanese saying about the nail that sticks out gets hammered down and the Chinese saying about the loudest duck gets shot.
It got me thinking about even Indian principles of things like respecting elders or other norms that are also in other Asian cultures. So how does one who is navigating their career with these different identities try to have their ideas heard and grow in the American workplace, when you’ve grown up with fundamentals that might have valued something different?
Chao: It’s kind of finding what feels natural, because if I say, “go be brash,” you’re like, “I don’t know how to do that. That feels totally against who I am.” But if there is a way that you can do it so that you’re still being heard.
Our book is called “The Visibility Mindset” because you just want to be visible. You don’t want to go in there and be a bull in the china shop, or be someone you’re totally not. But just to know that if you’re not saying something, you’re being invisible. You’re not showing up in the room. So perhaps it isn’t like: Cut everyone’s ideas off or interrupt at all times. It’s you need to be seen, because I think the default is that you’re not being seen, right? Or they expect you to not be seen. So if you are in that room, and you do have the opportunity to say something, you just need to get one sentence or two sentences in the room so they know you’re there. It’s just a game of: Hey, I’m in this room and I’m bringing value. Are you putting stuff in the chat? Are you sending notes afterwards? What are you doing to say that you’re an active participant?
This idea of when it comes to raises: What value did you bring to the room? If they can’t bring a tangible point or if they don’t remember something you did, then you’re not really considered.
You need to state your value. I say, for most people, create a website. There are very few professions where you don’t need one.
RWB: We are currently in an era where there is stark politicization and growing pushback to DEI (diversity, equity and inclusion) initiatives. So how do we all navigate that occasionally explicit, occasionally implicit pushback when there are now folks in the workplace who are on the defense about talking about anything at the intersection of identity in the workplace?
Chao: It’s a very weird time. It’s kind of swung back. That would be really nice if we were just in this world where none of these biases and micro-aggressions happen. But that’s not how it works. Looking across CEOs, we’re very overt with how we’re promoting and who we are promoting.
I don’t think we solve anything by pushing at something. We could really invite people into these spaces and into these conversations. I always say it’s not calling anyone out, it’s really calling people in. I say, you educate from a place of compassion, not from schooling someone.
RWB: As people navigate their careers, particularly young professionals, what should they be thinking about when seeking mentorship?
Chao: Maybe it’s not as much as how to look for a mentor, but how to have a connection with a mentor. I have had a lot of mentees, but a lot of people I mentor for a little bit — they kind of come a little nervous, they have a couple of questions, and they’re out. The people that I think have really done a great job are the ones that keep checking back. They really do see me as a friend, they check back, they are very diligent. I actually hire a lot of my mentees or freelance my mentees — the ones that do a good job having that communication afterwards are the ones that I think really do benefit from the experience, versus the ones that are trying to be polite and try to spare my time.
RWB: What else would you like to share?
Chao: I met someone who read the book and was really excited. He actually put together a pitch document for himself. He got to a point where he was like: I really need to be better about [communicating] who I am and why I’m good. He sent me his PowerPoint. It was amazing — and he actually got his raise. It is that moment of like: Oh my gosh, I could advocate for myself.
I don’t know if it was just me, but there was this thing [that I used to believe]: Someone else controls my destiny, my manager tells me how much money I can make, my work can tell me what project I can be put on. I think that moment for me was: I get a say in this. I get a say in my life. That was a big moment where I was like: Oh, I don’t have to just follow. Maybe that was my Asian conditioning of validation — someone in this role needs to put me on a path. There is that idea of do not make waves, be grateful for what you’re given … So, how much of that can I keep? And how much of that is me just playing really safe?
For me, it was that moment of getting really clear of my value.
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