Planetary Regeneration Podcast | Episode 17: Dr. Dorn Cox
This blog is a transcription of the 17th episode of the Planetary Regeneration Podcast, hosted by Regen Network’s Chief Regeneration Officer, Gregory Landua.
In this episode, Gregory interviews Dr. Dorn Dox, founder of OpenTEAM and farmOS. Listen on Soundcloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or Stitcher; or read the transcription below.
Gregory Landua: Alright welcome to the Planetary Regeneration Podcast. Today our guest is Dorn Cox who I'm really excited to chat with. He and I have been going back and forth for a little while to sync up and make some time for this call. Regular listeners probably have heard me mention Dorn and the amazing work that he is doing at Open Team that we're proud to be a part of at Regen Network. So, I'm excited to dive in I think there's a bunch of really pertinent topics and I just have to say, you know Dorn you are one of the people who like the first time we met it was sort of like a mind melt in which--
Dorn Cox: (chuckles)
Gregory Landua: You know it's sort of rare that the -- that you know you find somebody who just like taps into the same --
Dorn Cox: That's what I'm thinking about too --
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: That's what I (chuckles) yeah exactly
Gregory Landua: So I'm excited to chat, so do you want to just-- do you mind starting with just like, you know I like to oftentimes start the call -- these calls off with just like a description of maybe the world that you are working to create and you know what's inspiring you to do all the work and just you know like what do you [inaudible 1:22]?
Dorn Cox: Well what a fun question, yeah well I mean I think there are a lot of different components to that but I think I’ve been really trying to work towards creating a world where the -- a lot of the invisible value that’s created that I think people believe is there and internally understand is valuable, but have a really hard time expressing right. So I think what we’re trying to create is a world where that invisible – all that-- that’s invisible and has been undervalued becomes valuable and a lot of those things are those things that we have-- you know we've been calling them intangibles – but I don’t think they're necessarily intangible – I think we, I know that you have to quantify and put this hard value but they aren’t quantifiable and they are identifiable and I think that’s really important I think that’s part of what the regenerative agriculture-- sort of is embodying and so I think this world that we are creating is in some ways looking back to an agrarian culture but not in the way in that it’s this world idyllic enterprise but more that agrarianism or agriculture represents something that actually brings us together and bridges urban and world abides and connects us in terms of the --you know the connection that we have from you know from the microbiome to the biosphere and agriculture and managing – you know essentially managing our environment it's how we express ourselves in the environment. Agriculture is how we sort of show our understanding of the system and the tools we use are an expression of our understanding of how that system works. So when I think about sort of the world that we're trying to create, it’s sort of co-creating and engaging and embedding not just those ideals but having the tools. Again as somebody said: “Like the tools we use are sort of”-- what was it? Oh I’m gonna forget the quote here. I should have prepared, but essentially that object have politics in them, right? And so the tools we use are sort of embedded with their ideals and so that’s what I’m seeing as an opportunity here sort of on the upside of the climate challenges we’re facing are that it’s the largest scale collective impact project that we’ve ever undertaken and that’s kind of an exciting opportunity and in another way not to be Pollyannaish about it, but it is also something that I think is speaking -- just even as some of what the folks are saying, even if it wasn’t climate crisis these are things that we'd be working towards to improve the great human experiment, right?
Gregory Landua: Hmm umm
Dorn Cox: And so this is a long winded way of saying what are we trying to get at? And I think that the really simple thing perhaps to sort of crystallize all that together is that the world that I see is that we can start to see humans and our interaction together as being collectively a beneficial organism. Where we improve not only our environments for ourselves but through doing that we improve how we work with each other and understand each other and the environment and that can actually not be a difficult process but it can be really engaging and exciting and I think it is again something that's so—I think it's a unique. It’s something that transcends other scientific endeavors, so we—and I’ll pause there, but there's a lot more that I can go down there in terms of, sort of the shared science and sort of moving beyond sort of. So much of our cultural values that divide us and I think this is something where again we can find, we can connect to get across all sorts of geographic cultural boundaries.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um, cool. Well there is a lot there – and one of the things that just merges and resonates with me is this concept of you know what is it going to take to -- for humans to evolve to become a beneficial organism? And you know, that’s sort of a big disruptive idea. I mean it sort of runs counter to I think kind of you know a common narrative in society around you know humans and economics and you know all of that.
Dorn Cox: Oh yeah
Gregory Landua: And I’m curious to ground that, it's like say that's sort of an overarching you know – I mean you said a lot, but – I kind of hold, the way I anchor and resonate with what you are saying we could sort of tag it as you know the future you're working to create is one in which humans are beneficial organism, a member of the greater web of life that benefits that life.
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: I’m curious, to be concrete. What does that have to do with – you sort of alluded to this – but what does it have to do with technology? Our approach to technology? And specifically, what has you so excited to be dedicating your – all your life energy and time to Open team?
Dorn Cox: (chuckles), yeah because it’s so much of this is --you know, and this is the tension I think because we’re dealing with natural systems is that intrinsically none of this, you know if you talk to agro-ecologist you don’t need technology to implement these it’s actually engaging the natural system but it requires a certain level of knowledge and sharing information and inspiration about how to engage with these natural systems well and to understand some of the mechanisms and so it's not enough for an indigenous culture to fully, you know understand a piece of it because if they can’t share that knowledge the vast majority of the rest of humanity that we – that currently exist will not benefit from that and so I think that’s where technology is – it’s a great interpretation it’s really --and I look at technology in several – in a flow essentially, a feedback loop-- in terms of, you know providing that flow of information and inspiration back to the land and to democratize access to that because really in order to unlike say as I was mentioning other like large scale public, you know research like deep space exploration – where we have -- this great --this exploration of what it means, you know where we are in the universe right? That’s great and we can share that for agricultural knowledge to be useful we actually have to apply it, in which means that every person who interacts with nature actually should have access to our best understanding of how we work within nature.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: So technology is essentially our expression of how do we use the tools that we have to make that possible? And so, there are different pieces that --part of it is the observation and tools that enhance our understanding beyond what we can see with our eyes and the visuals spectrum from whatever height we are at looking in one direction.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: You know that’s – those are our observational tools, we can sense, we have certain senses, but we also have observation tools that can go beyond those senses.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: And that can elevate our perspective from above or can you know microscopes, telescopes you know-- infrared, ultraviolet you know – you name it all these radio spectrums all those things can be used to inform and look beyond our own context and I think elevating our perspective or you know putting ourselves in context is something that technology can really do and remove our – you know we have this concept of doing science of observational bias, right?
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: And so this is where technology can help sort of be this third party arbitrator of what we see and how we experience what we see.
Gregory Landua: So--
Dorn Cox: And so that’s the observational piece but it’s also – there’s also the technology that's used—because that is overwhelming, our brains can’t do that so we’ll also need to – we need to sensitize that, we have to analyze that and then we have to be able to if its analyzed we then have to be able to communicate it and put it in context with one another, so there’s another layer of technology and communications and then finally it does no good if we have all this knowledge and we can’t actually translate that into some kind of action and so this observational, this loop between observation analysis communication and then action – and action tools are the things that we use like a [inaudible 11:22] or a sheep or you know and a fence, you know all of those things are tools that we use to actually then interact with the environment and so they're indirectly influenced by our understanding of how that system works, so that all of those things together I think compose the technology ecosystem that is what I think is necessary to accelerate our understanding of our environment, communicate with one another and to shift into this knowledge intensive biological agriculture that’s necessary to improve the environment that we all share
Gregory Landua: Right, so it sounds to me like a big part of this is sort of sense making, like growing the sense making capability of--
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: Of land stewards, but maybe of also you know --
Dorn Cox: Of land stewards --
Gregory Landua: I mean more generally--
Dorn Cox: Yeah, well I mean I think it is – it’s about at the land stewardship level it’s being able to you know access global knowledge for your own production to you know to be able to make better decisions to access markets all the rest of that thing through communications and so forth. But it’s also about giving all of the rest of humanity that is in stewarding land, access to that system and understanding what’s important about that and engaging it and then this is one of the key things is that agriculture that I think that we’re coming collectively to understand is that agriculture isn’t this, like it’s not a world isolated independent enterprise, it’s actually something that we do together and a shared human endeavor and that just like you know when to bury you know a (inaudible 13:22) political actor you know that – but it’s more than that, it’s far more than that in my mind. It’s that in – especially if we’re trying to be beneficial [inaudible 13:36] agriculture is the foundation essentially of civilization and that’s again cliché and it’s also even and it’s also inaccurate and we’ve lost that. We've sort of --it-- during the industrial process we’ve sort of said oh it’s like any other type of production but if you – but you don’t have to go back very far to see you know the foundation of if you look at the corner of the USDA building in Washington they have, there is a corner stone on the building that’s the old model that they knock – that they stopped using their letterhead in the mid-80s you know agriculture is the foundation of industry and commerce and that’s referencing essentially the physiocrats you know -- who are sort of the first economists and scientists and actual philosophers – I don’t want to get into it too much but they had the vision of you know – that I go back to is that-- agriculture you know-- their vision of agriculture was if you look at civilization as a tree, agriculture is at the roots and the population is the trunk and the arts and commerce are the leaves and branches and that – and the-- you know the leaves and branches can be blown off in a storm and they’ll regrow --but if the roots are damaged, the whole system withers and dies and I am paraphrasing-- but that’s – that’s the you know -- there were numerous presidents and leaders in the early stages of the US during the foundation of the United States that were part of that sort of physiocratic movement or this governance of nature which is very much in line with what we’re talking about in terms of people being a beneficial organism within the system and also looking at science as again this participatory effort that this is something that we all do as natural philosophers not something that – you know scientist is sort of the professional title for somebody who does this for a living as oppose to-- a way in which we interpret the environment that everybody is a part of.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: So that’s the long way of saying – that’s sort of some of the thinking and motivation behind Open Team-- is really laying the foundation for that kind of work and translating that into-- with the best available tools, technologies and communities that are currently out there who are trying to move towards making real change that is necessary and urgent to address not just climate change but you know the --not just mitigate to climate change but to adapt to it. As well as the other benefits that are -- the co-benefits that go along with regenerative agriculture in terms of beauty, biodiversity, community, development you know, the well- fire mitigation, water quality, like all those co-benefits so--
Gregory Landua: So, there’s a couple different conversational topics that I'm really excited to get into. One is sort of like giving listeners a sense of-- I don’t know, just sort of like the—like concrete application of this sort of like nexus of citizens, science and sort of semantic web technology and you know co-operative, collaborative collective learning and since making it we’re sort of talking about you know sort of like grounding that maybe like in your own farm or in --
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: Different instances, sort of like the vision of the farm hub network and what’s happening and how that’s taking place – which I think would be super cool for people. So that’s one item. I’m really interested to talk about sort of the markets – you know the interface with markets and --
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: The emerging opportunity to you know link quantification of you know common goods, republic goods with you know market forces
Dorn Cox: Market forces and innovation -- yeah
Gregory Landua: Exactly, so those are two of the sort of themes that I'm really interested in getting to do a good thorough deep dive with you. Curious where your instinct is to start – like do you start with the market interface? Or do we start with sort of a more concrete exploration of what you know what does a farmer’s life look like when they’re using Farm OS and you know --
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: I’d love – I’d be happy to dive into sort of how-- where the current state of where technology is a little bit but I would love—I’d preface that by saying I mean I think the point of the technology is to make it basically go-- become --go invisible not be dominating your life but in fact make nature dominate your life (chuckles) you know --
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: That’s sort of the trajectory that we’re working towards is both reducing cost and also creating interfaces that enhance your experience rather than diminish it and I think that's really important and it’s a big part of Open Team is that human center design, but that may not go far enough because its beyond human center design it's really--and so that is why we're you know – I’m particularly interested in natural language based interfaces or audible or-- and even some interfaces where it’s you know there's some really cool projects that I worked with on Public Lab that-- where they were doing essentially audible so, it’s basically they called it -- there's this tool that was called Cricket that would chirp essentially the moisture level so you get sort of this experiential sort of environmental feedback and yet this is what essentially the trained-- you know the trained naturalist has all those queues already so again this is to come around that we're using technology as a short term prop to educate as communally where some of these indicators. These natural indicators which are far better in some cases and are digital indicators become unnecessary because of where -- if we have this knowledge internalized then we don't need all that we can internalize the values we can understand that but where we are now this is where we're seeing the data visualization and the tools to understand and quantify soil carbon and you know -- the microbiome diversity and functionality and all of that kind of really high-tech sophisticated analysis, the point of that is again not to have to do that all the time but to become and get an appreciation and how is that expressed in a healthy plant which results in healthy food? And so that’s sort of where we want to go and so you know and from that we can back up into where things are today and how do we do that? So we have screens (chuckles)
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: That we have to use as – but I really want – I don’t want to get stuck on that and I think one of the tensions that we have as we're developing these tools and technologies for use in the field for farmers to use again is not to be shifting towards your heads is down and interpreting environment from the screen but to, how do we shift this so that we’re using those devices to understand our environment better, you know where shifting is sort of its essentially an observational tool to interpret the environment and not be this addictive sticky thing that invites more and more participation with it but to use it to enhance communication and experience. So, it’s a different than say a venture based app that's meant to be you know it grabs you and is--
Gregory Landua: Well this is the – there we go, we start moving into the market conversation, so own it like tag – I think that is exactly the right entrée before we go in I want to just sort of summarize in my own words what I think you’re saying here which is that the technological approach here is that earth observation technology sensors you know internet connectivity make it possible that the thesis here is that it makes it possible to kind of maybe re-train the vestigial organ of nature connection that humans seem to have – seems as atrophied in humanity over the past few hundred years like that there’s – you know maybe indigenous cultures have this capability to culturally harmonize with the place and that as we become more you know in quotes ‘rational’ not to like get overly I guess like developmental about it but you know maybe there is a story that has some utility or some sense that as cultures have sort of separated from their landscapes and become more scientific and more knowledge based instead of sort of implicit tacit, culturally oriented we’ve separated ourselves from the living world and now in order to regrow that capacity this is actually sort of like -- it’s like a return to nature through technology augmenting our sensory capability as humans.
Dorn Cox: Yeah, which change our values [inaudible 24:31]
Gregory Landua: But you said that – then it’s like I can actually transcend my singular egoist perspective by seeing a satellite image
Dorn Cox: Well I mean this sort of you know the – I mean this is what they talk about sort of the pale blue dot or the you know the Apollo image of Earth it sort of gives you that perspective but it doesn’t even have to be that far away I mean this is what the democratization of aerial imagery through drones gives you that third person perspective
Gregory Landua: Where all of the amazing free ISSA
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: [inaudible 25:10] data it’s like that is maybe one of the most valuable
free sources of data that’s ever been you know opened
Dorn Cox: Right, right you know exactly so I mean I think this is an example of where these-- an example of sort of these public science and the power of that imagery this process of or you know something that we’ve done together is to create those images and the outcry when those were suddenly you know taken away (chuckles) right and so I think that’s --and the democratization of access because it wasn’t that long ago that that kind of imagery was only accessible to large corporations and governments and so I think that's one of really the sort of the things that has happened with the-- sort of those. More [inaudible 25:59] technology with not just processing power and storage but also lower class imagery and batteries and now automation equipment as well as we have this potential to share these other perspectives at very low cost, but I mean I think there is another question that we were – that we were diving into
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dr. Dorn Cox: That I wanted to come back--
Gregory Landua: Come back to that, let’s come back to where we were starting to enter into like certainly circle back to the value question of like -- how are we making visible, what was previously invisible or how – what do business modules, I mean another way to ask this question is what is a non-extractive degeneration [inaudible 26:49] looks like?
Dorn Cox: Well I mean that was the key that you know exactly because essentially I believe that so much of our – the structure of inquiry and science essentially atrophied because of the industrial extraction model and that most of our institutions of higher learning were really about how do we learn enough to --about these systems in order to get more production out of it but it didn’t-- wasn’t really at a systems level and part of that was because of you know the industrial extraction process that we didn’t need to know all of that system and I think the other part is that the tools we had were still fairly coarse and I think that’s what the real revolution that’s happened is that a lot of the way in which we’ve done science is --and understood these systems we’ve had to be essentially reductive in our science because it’s so expensive to ask lots and lots of questions and so experimental design and the way in which we’ve approached this has been extractive and narrow and again because of some of those limitations and of course because of the value of extraction we’ve set up these solid organizations that if, you know -- professionalized this inquiry and left a lot of people out of the-- left huge portions of the population out of the inquiry process and haven’t been exposed to the process that created all these benefits and so I think this is something that you know we’re seeing in popular politics right now of just this distrust of technology and science because of that and so I think this is part of where I think the food movement and regenerative agriculture actually has this great service to play in realigning people with the process of co-creating knowledge and the tools to interpret their environment and that is where we get back to—this is a roundabout way but this is how we get back to market values and how we – what do we do together and then where do we use markets to create incentives [inaudible 29:29] and let’s share like we have -- so you know I’m coming at it from a perspective that scientific knowledge is something that we do together this is not something you're innovating-- nobody is innovating, but is creating scientific knowledge without the process of consensus and collaboration and building on you know hundreds if not thousands of years of knowledge.
Gregory Landua: Science doesn’t exist without an inter-subjective process
Dorn Cox: No, exactly and the thing that people forget I think that and I wish if so if I’d done my research I’d give you all the attributes to fix what I’m saying here (chuckles) so I should have taken notes before in but basically the-- what I – the key that I think that is often missed when we’re talking about science is you know we talk about you know the process of you know the experimental design and so forth but the other piece is consensus
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: And that’s something we do together and it's partly peer review but it is beyond peer review and I think that’s a really an important part again science doesn’t do any good if one person understands the system completely. It’s actually not part of the cultural fabric, unless it’s and this is the-- I think a frustration for anybody engaged in science --is that it’s – it doesn’t do any good until that underlying understanding is not even shared amongst a narrow group within a department but then it's part of the cultural fabric and people incorporated into their world view and understanding and interpretation of the world and that’s why I get, again I keep coming back to where agriculture is a way in which we can essentially apply that and interpret it and regenerative agriculture is where we can beneficially sort of apply that process and engage people into that process
Gregory Landua: I sometime describe Open Team or the nexus of Open Team and Regen Network, whatever the network topology looks like I sometimes describe it as what we’re working on is the world’s biggest scientific instruments
Dorn Cox: Oh absolutely, yeah. This is a feedback system and we each play a role in essentially this global-- you know it’s a global collaborative environmental feedback system whether it's a soils information-- it's not just a soils information system either, it’s really, it’s harnessing our environmental observations to improve our collective understanding of the way the world works and that’s not incompatible with the market based solutions and I just want to make the distinction and I want to make sure I do it here early enough that market – I want to tease out what is shared scientific understanding of how the world works with the profit from production and innovation on top of that. The services that we use to interpret that productively and how we should reward those who are able to implement and put their labor – mix their labor with nature to improve it and in service of others. I mean this is-- it’s so fundamental and you know early economist threw up their hands and said: "Well that's too hard, so we won’t do it". I think the only opportunity to really tackle that is like
Gregory Landua: So what you're saying in like economics jargon is like we can start incorporating public goods into how the economy function
Dorn Cox: Yeah well
Gregory Landua: They're common goods
Dorn Cox: Well they're common goods and yeah and those are some of those things that you know we may you know collectively fund to do together and there's - but there's innovation around the edges that we can do but there's pieces that should be held in common so that we can innovate on top of them more effectively and then there is the – you know that value added part that we’re doing that we should--where there is a public benefit of – let me step back. From an economist perspective we wanna shift from rewarding essentially profit from rival, so they get this-- sorry to jump into this but--
Gregory Landua: No it's good, go there
Dorn Cox: So much of extractive economies of rival goods, if I have it you don’t. It’s a scarcity economy right? And where we move towards an economy based on not just club goods but non-rival goods. Things like knowledge, experience, you know natural abundance—there’s essentially -- we’re not working towards an abundance based economy where there is an incentive to produce access not restrict access, and so that's I think that is really important and non-rival means that you know if somebody else uses it you can also use it and in fact by their using it, it might even be enhanced. So ideas --you know knowledge is one of those things. Science is one of those things where by getting your feedback the idea may get better, the design of device may get better because more people may look it, use it and adapt it. So ideas are like I think-- a wonderful non-rival good, so you know I think you know, not to rely on you know Jefferson and all those other problematic things but he used the candle-- you know a candle as a great example it gives. If it gives me light that doesn’t mean you don’t get light from it and so I think that’s those-- that’s really an important concept and I – environmental quality is another example so many of the things we’re talking about environmental services are non-rival in you know biodiversity and habitat and clean air and water are things that are you know – where if you're enhancing it we’re all benefiting it, if you are polluting it then it's rival, you’re using it up essentially. But there's--
Gregory Landua: Right it could go either way but also it's like we need to have--
Dorn Cox: The beauty and design you know experiences are other examples anyway
Gregory Landua: There's a need for sort of like an evolution of new ways of thinking about you know these sort of-- I don't know if goods is the right word even, but I mean--
Dorn Cox: Well goods and any services then I think --
Gregory Landua: [inaudible 36:29] outcomes that are like for instance environmental quality you know the benefits of environmental quality like a watershed scale, range to global benefits from carbon cycle balances and you know nutrient balances going into the ocean etcetera to -- at the edge to like concentric circle, the closer you are in until you are actually living in the watershed or on the farm then you have the maximum benefit from those non-rival risk benefits. So it's sort of like -- there's like this gradation or this continuum of access to something it doesn't mean that other people are getting shut off in any way it just means that according to your proximity to the candle for instance, if you're a long way from the candle --
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: You don’t get to see the light if you’re close you do
Dr. Dorn Cox: Right and I think that’s what we're looking at with these ecosystem service markets and using technology to get people closer to that experience and to understand is to bring people together in terms of understanding that even if you're in an urban environment you're understanding that air or water qualities improve because of these processes and you’re benefiting from that – so I think that's what we're talking about in terms of making those non-rival invisible goods visible and valuable.
Gregory Landua: And creating funding you know creating opportunities for I mean the vision I’ve always had is you know in that if you have a watershed, you have farms upstream, you have a municipality of a city in town downstream there is such an obvious linkage between the land use, up above in the watershed and the-- you know flood resilience and water quality and access to food and you know all the ecosystem services that are produced that creating economic relationships that go beyond just the private goods of like the wheat or the corn or the [inaudible 38:37]
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: That’s produced by that farm seems obvious to me that you would want to create economic relationships in which people who benefit from great stewardship are helping fund and you know reduce risk for the steward who is using--
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: Those outcomes downstream, and one way that we go about trying to accomplish that is this concept which I think is sort of forgotten in a way but that’s like the basic theory right there at least from my perspective and one way to produce that is you know this concept of ecosystem service credits and carbon credits
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: And these other sort of things and so I’d love for you to talk you know sort of speak about you know one of the things we had intended to talk about was just like the sort of the state of ecosystem service credit design and where the market seems to be going and where it may be leading us astray.
Dorn Cox: Abso— yeah well definitely have to get into that. I would like to add before we get into that you know that experience --that you know credits are one interpretation but that we’re also seeing in terms of what we're asking for agriculture is more of a link to that environment and we’re seeing that all sorts of different ways in terms of the improvement you know agro-tourism so forth but-- that every farm in – you know part of farm viability is connecting people to that process and that’s what we're seeing it's sort of -- there's a popular you know connection to local food partly because of that and we’re adding some value and not all the values being captured in the price of the way we you know buy food and we're much more comfortable off than not paying for it through food but in other ways
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: Like you know in-- other you know in staying in a cabin or a farm or you know an Airbnb or whatnot I mean I think these are what we’re seeing globally in terms of the desire to make those connections and create that value
Gregory Landua: Right, so people find – people create education or tourism or they create product premiums around the amazing food with a great story or you know there's sort of layers in which our society is figuring out how to value quality
Dorn Cox: Yeah and exactly, and but when we’re doing this at a global scale the further away people are, the more connected they are with you know the further they are from that production system that's supporting them, the more we need technology to interpret it and create you know the connection to those-- the values that they’re trying to express in some way or --
Gregory Landua: And maybe even as you’re saying in the short term – short to mid-term, I sort of believe there is a need in our culture today to have quantitative and qualitative assessments of you know ecological health and--
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: And vibrance available to all of the stakeholders who are influenced by it.
Dorn Cox: Precise and we can produce more abundance of that, if we can create, if we have this mechanism to recognize what people actually want. We just are sending the wrong signals and we’re unhappy with the signals we’re sending but we just haven't had the tools to send the right signals to get what we actually, I believe collectively actually enjoy. I mean people want a greener more beautiful environment that is safe. You know safe drinking water, safe you know place, pastoral landscapes with lots of diversity and habitat that you know that they can you know we certainly see the sort of the global sort of connection with and concern with the way in which you know animals are raised and environmental concerns around and the political power that those concerns have. All of those are trying to address some of this-- get at some of this underlying desire to interact and with the environment in – in a way that actually meets our values which I think again I come back, I believe are actually intrinsic shared human experiences or you know, there is something fundamental, to and biological we know that there are healthy environments for us to live in. There are feedback groups when we are in a healthy environment.
Gregory Landua: Hmm
Dorn Cox: So but to get back to-- cause I – and you will find in this conversation I always try to sort of step away from the technology first before we get into it because I totally love getting into the weeds of the tech, but I have to keep stepping back, why? You know, because we can get very easily go down the wrong path because we get really intrigued with you know, AI and remote sensing and imaging analysis and the coolest new sensor and playing with drones and that's all great things to do. But really, I think continuing to work to put that into context is important in order to achieve some of the bigger breakthroughs that I think are important because otherwise, we see this angst that we have in terms of the kinds of things that are coming out of silk and valley that will make the world a better place. And some of those same tools redeployed can I believe get that same result, but we have to keep revisiting that
Gregory Landua: Well may be redeployed with different profit motives different--
Dorn Cox: Different motives, same underlying tools [inaudible 44:39] with a different module that doesn't strand incredible amounts of human capital that have gone into really good work that can't be actually used and built on. So I think that's being more efficient with our innovation rather than less and I think this is where we have you know a natural resource economics you'd call it a market failure right, or not getting the desired efficiency and result from our investments. So that’s-- yeah, so where are we with ecosystems service markets? I think is the-- what we are trying to get to and--
Gregory Landua: Yeah and you know maybe coming at it like first I don't know we can talk about in whatever way, sort of just organically emerges but I have this sense that I mean so like just for framing I myself been a long a time skeptic of ecosystem service markets especially carbon credits and carbon markets
Dorn Cox: Let's start with that. Let's like maybe I don't know if you if you're up to this.
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: I'm totally in on that whole, little back and forth in terms of why the current framing of carbon markets is problematic
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: And then we can maybe work in towards, how do we get from where we are now to where the potential is? Which is I think pretty exciting and actually we're-- you know from Regen's perspective I think is very exciting
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: But yeah let's just talk a little bit about you know, we've I think, so much of the carbon credits and the offsets and so forth that we're being-- are really coming from an industrial pollution control model
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: Right, where we're measuring emissions from a very specific thing we can do it and they can do it very precisely and--
Gregory Landua: Some what they pretend it's precise, but actually surprisingly enough it's not as precise as they --
Dorn Cox: Okay let's say the perception is that we can stick you know it's coming out a smoke stack
Gregory Landua: Yeah, but it's crazy that it isn't actually like, they don't actually use sensors or anything like that, all they're doing is the same kind type of empirical modeling stuff that we do as [inaudible 47:07]
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: So anyway it's like a--
Dorn Cox: But, so at the-- it's to some extent its point source
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: And more importantly I think though is that it is treated as this isn't that bad, right?
Gregory Landua: How do we reduce it?
Dorn Cox: Yeah, we want to reduce that
Gregory Landua: We want to and so enter in concepts like additionality like--
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: Like avoided emissions, where you get credits for you know emitting relatively less, like so should we be--
Dorn Cox: Everything is about trying to [inaudible 47:43]
Gregory Landua: Should we be giving the corona virus? Should we be getting? Should we-- assigning the corona virus some sort of like avoided emissions credit or something for the massive reduction and emissions in China? It's like this very strange logic that starts to emerge
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: Around how the market
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: Engages with--
Dorn Cox: Well it’s even, I mean it has-- it suffers from the same thing as GDP where you know all activity is treated as you know as good
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: Clearly that's not the case, so this suffers from some of the same issue and you're right exactly then we have all these other problems that pop up because of that to create financial instruments to do that like as you said you know additionality and understanding whether the behavior would have happened any way you know and I think and permanence and so forth and so all of these again are in the whole UN framework is essentially coming from that place because that was the model and it worked for things like ozone and other you know things that were really you know again these point source things. I think when we are shifting towards and I think what we have to look at is that agriculture does perhaps provide some of that service but that's not the way to build a system to measure it or to award it, because we have the potential and I think if we don't design a system that goes beyond that bad [inaudible 49:23] in fact creates incentives to produce abundance and of net goods
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: In terms of positive services, then we're never gonna have a system that is going to get there. We're always going to be working over creating huge amounts of bureaucratic fund, financial you know, legal mechanisms to work around a fundament-- a system that isn't based on the underline benefits of the system it doesn't fundamentally doesn't understand nature and understands industrial process
Gregory Landua: I couldn't agree more
Dorn Cox: And so I think that’s--
Gregory Landua: Yeah I couldn't I mean [inaudible 50:00]
Dorn Cox: So, and that's essentially where we're at and maybe it's a brand, so that's where we're at, is I see, is that we're working through a number of these environmental service market places with corporate goals that are trying to you know balance you know their insetting or offsetting emissions to get to that and that is all fine we-- but it is an [inaudible 50:26] step I think from where we can't just jump. I mean I'm all for jumping as quickly as we can into all of this alternative system, but all of the tools and the legal structures and mechanisms aren't there yet. So my, you know, my thinking through this is how do we free the bridge from where we are to where we need to go? As quickly as we can possibly get there and how can we fit as many as these concepts or create and this is why in any of the processes that I'm engaged with, I always say let's build a modular system let's have it versioned. Let's have a system that will adapt to change and doesn't lock us into a system legally, financially or otherwise or you know technologically that strands too much. We're gonna have some stranded efforts in the process but how can we strand as little as possible in that?
Gregory Landua: Hmm um, yeah that's all logical. So I think you know, thinking of we did a little bit of an overview there-- what's problematic about the way that carbon is being approached I would add a couple more things [inaudible 51:42]
Dorn Cox: I'm not just [inaudible 51:43] but yes, but carbon especially
Gregory Landua: I would add, yeah, generally you know the system to value, protect and liberate you know ecological or environmental equality is very poorly developed and mostly coming from as you're saying this sort of like reduced harm industrial mindset which tends to I find that even the most innovative projects in the space tend to be sort of like carbon reductionist where everything starts to collapse into and there's like an unwillingness to break certain boundaries that I would say I think you were sort of pointing this, are essentially like type one errors of design. They're essentially like without breaking those old ways of thinking about it and re-approaching from what is real around the carbon cycle and landscapes and farms and food production and starting there and asking what do we want to create? We want to create a system that turns, you know a trillion tons of atmospheric carbon into a trillion tons of soil and forest and wetlands and coral reef.
Dorn Cox: And biodiversity and viable enterprises and support world--
Gregory Landua: Exactly
Dorn Cox: You know livelihoods and--
Gregory Landua: That's what we need --
Dorn Cox: All those things
Gregory Landua: To do and we need to do that in the 20 to 30 years
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: And there's a way that will create this enormous economic upside. It will also have some cost and it will have some risk and we need to mitigate the risk and underwrite the cost and we need to you know essentially reward success. Performance based success --
Dorn Cox: Which is the--
Gregory Landua: At turning that atmospheric carbon into life essentially
Dorn Cox: Right and abundance not scarcity. What we want is to create incentives to create a huge amount of it, not create a little bit about of it and then value it very highly, we actually want to create a huge surplus of that
Gregory Landua: And so there's a-- should there -- there's an economic. There's like a discrete economic design right there that I think that we just sort of lay it out which to me is the starting place to have conversations about the versions like we start with you know ecosystem service credits 2.0 which meets corporate CSR and ESG and impact investing where it is at and not where it needs to be and then it moves that whole space and transforms it into a system that is dynamic and adaptive
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: And facilitates the re-investiture into living capital essentially
Dorn Cox: Right and that, I think the co-creation of that benefits so that the creators of that are benefiting and creating equity in that new asset class in perennials in deeper soil that they have access to, it like all those things there as an appreciation and there's a natural return on investment there, like again, but if it-- and I think this -- I don't want to get into it but you know there's a certain, the interest rates or the financing and the returns on that can't be above what the level that the natural system is returning.
Gregory Landua: That's right, there's a whole new asset class that has to be created and it has to be bound. The financial rules have to be bound to the rules of living systems and not--
Dorn Cox: Yeah, but isn't that a wonderful incentive to get more out of your investment to accelerate the appreciation of those natural assets?
Gregory Landua: That's exactly right and that's the-- if and that's where I think, you know where our mind meld, the next like weaving back which is, if then you have this robust collective inter-subjective scientific instrument that can-- with a high degree of precision say whether or not that living system actually improve biodiversity, or actually improves soil health, actually generated the foundation for the living capital that you are trying to create an asset class on. That's the pre-requisite for that asset class to exist, is the verification network, is the collective--
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: Understanding that the system increase in health
Dorn Cox: And the beautiful thing is that the system to create that is again, based not on extractive minerals from around you know that we have to ship all over the world by and large the way to achieve that is harnessing genetic diversity and biological mechanisms to create that that's the low cost
Gregory Landua: The knowledge, you know how do you rotate you pedal and when do you do crop rotation and--
Dorn Cox: Right, which combination of genetics do you mix in?
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: And so moving seeds, genetics around the world is very inexpensive, moving knowledge around the world is actually very inexpensive. I think where we're learning is like how do we actually do that well, so that we can-- because huge again, mass industrialization, you know massive, you know precision agriculture equipment isn't gonna actually deliver all those benefits and so this is actually something that is usually accessible and so that the fungal bacterial populations that we can both cultivate or you know move globally, but also inoculate locally or create essentially the environment for them to propagate themselves to move the phosphorus, water, nitrogen, you know, use abundant nitrogen in the atmosphere, abundant carbon in the atmosphere, abundant water vapor in the atmosphere to be able to adapt to that, to create. It's alchemy essentially--
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: It's this wonderful thing that put us here in the first place, right?
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: But, it's incredible, it's this most wonderful, it's like birth I guess. Like the most amazing thing and yet it's the most common thing as well. And so it's like, how do we share in our interpretation of that process and then. As we say, create the rewards to feedback and have, because you know what we've-- you know this is kind of the wonderful thing about systems, is we have this system that degrades is sort of this negative feedback system of degraded natural systems that degraded system support less which then supports less which require more inputs and lower yields, etcetera. But the opposite is also possible, where we increase the capacity which increases the availability of nutrients and water retention and resilience and so forth. So, I think this is just an amazing economic human experiment to be launching and of course there is the urgency to actually get it done. So it is not an academic exercise, it's actually a very practical human exercise that we really, that is incredibly urgent for us to tackle. As you say, in not too many decades.
Gregory Landua: So, what are the approaches to this, that you are seeing and what are their limitations right now? How are people falling short from the potential or starting off with type one errors that you know may you know I don't think are gonna keep it from actualizing, but may result in stranded effort essentially?
Dorn Cox: Yeah, I mean I think in just definitely balancing that with the different environmental sort of-- the offset market programs, I mean. I think that's where things are at. There's gonna be -- there is bureaucratic recognition to move forward and so I think that's where we're at. Is quantifying environmental improvement overtime to create offset, you know products that can then meet the current, you know demand, and meet you know goals that are set by governments and by large organizations and you know corporations. So, I think that's the intrum step, I think our role in a lot of that is emerging, so there's a lot of flexibility I think our role in that is to push for again, recognition that these systems are going to be better and then we can version and we can pull out our measurement tools or measurement you know, reporting verification tools, to create new and better evaluations and better you know, financial instruments and awards and incentives based on that same online data because I think where we don't have to have stranded assets is essentially the same data that we're collecting and this foundational work that we're using to support that system will still work to support the next system. So, I'm not particularly worried about that as long as we're all communicating and seeing that there is this other potential future
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: And that's why I'm excited you know with Open Team, we have all sorts of different approaches that are at different levels of you know different parts of that timeline. I see Regen as reaching out to the next piece of laying the foundation and the technical underpinnings to make that vision happen and possibly solving a lot of the problems in the interim, as well. And we have, you know I think that's where [inaudible 1:02:23] is providing a great service to meet people where they're at, right now or and ESMC is a little bit in between
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: For example, so I think the strength is if we can create a relationship rather than a competitive relationship, but really that these efforts are aligned into where we ultimately want to get and that comes down to having the personal conversations with the people involved and my experience is that pretty much everybody involved, is willing to have that conversation and most of us just want to make it work and to get there and so we're all-- so I think that's really important is getting to be connecting at that level and of course we -- you know we all have our organizational needs to make sure that we can do what we need to do, to get there and that's part of what Open Team is about is to help to bridge that and recognize to help make that level of dialogue and smooth some of that-- the tension in those relationships.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um, yeah fantastic. If I remember, you know when we were chatting on the phone maybe a week or two ago. You had indicated that you specifically wanted to, you know, talk about something that you were taking or maybe problematic about, you know the approaches to ecosystem service credits that people were taking. Have we accomplished that or is there still something?
Dorn Cox: Yeah, we sort of brushed over, I mean we can get into the knitty gritty of like the current way that say certain systems are working with additionality or permanence, that I don't know if that's necessary to dive into too much. I guess we could touch on a little bit, in the you know I think like, so many things I think we have, if we look beyond our sort of [inaudible 1:04:40] enterprises we have amazing solutions and minds that have solved problems in other areas that we can bring to bare
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: So, you know we've you know, often I think from environmental service markets or you know coming at it overly from -- there might be a tendency to say that you know over financialization is the problem and then, and not see that there actually are probably some financial tools and mechanisms and derivatives that can actually be really beneficial to help bridge, but they actually just like our tools and technologies like drones and satellite imagery and large databases and surveillance tape you know kind of tech. They can also be misused, and coercive, and sort of ratchet down and create a ratchetty down of environmental you know-- the system.
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: And so that's where we have to be really careful, but they can also be you know, the difference between like a private equity and like you know a company and a cooperative bank, right? So, for returning dividends to the shareholders who are the owners, who are participating fully in that process, then we can use tools, you know like sophisticated insurance tools or things like that they can --
Gregory Landua: That's to me, that's just fundamental, you just hit the nail on the head. Which is one of the big reasons why, we've tried to architect things, the way we have at Regen Network although it's been you know, it's a long path to get there, but you know financial tools and the ability to use Fintec
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: If the users, if the stakeholders, if everyone, all of us humans who are-- you know part of the market that's being used-- if we're the shareholders and we benefit and govern it, then it's fantastic, you can align incentives you can get really precise and specific about agreements. There's all of these layers of tools and risk mitigation and you know, market mechanisms and how to govern market mechanisms. All of that is there at our fingertips, but when it's applied, in a way that's, you know it--has extractive sort of rent seeking behavior that is sucking out the resources of the users, then it's going to be bad essentially, it's gonna end poorly.
Dorn Cox: Yeah, well exactly and I think one of the things that we're facing, that's-- I think one of our greatest challenge is with any of this you know financial tech, tech in general, science in general. Is the-- is essentially managing that, and-- incredible complexity in building trust in that process making it human interpret-able, because these systems have a tendency to spin out of the human scale and out of people, you know --people's comfort zones, in lots of different ways and so I think that's where you know, so much work I think is in it's not, over simplifying it. But creating interfaces to these tools; financial tools, technology tools that are human interpretable, so that all of the AI and so forth is actually telling us more about how it works and the way the world works rather than less and I don't know if that's and so that's a design process, that is and you know again when we're-- resource can string off and that human interpretable, the documentation, the pieces that make all of the work we do useful to others, is often left off we just try to get the process done, so that we can do the next thing and get the minimum viable product forward and that's all reasonable and yet we leave people behind. This is the--I would argue and science and technology we have-- we are leaving a lot of people behind, in that, and we see the distrust in science and technology and government and you know, look at all the climate denial not just this one case, but there's so many
Gregory Landua: Alright because it's so easy if people don't have understanding of--
Dorn Cox: Well lot involve includes
Gregory Landua: Involved in the tools and the participating and knowledge generation it is so easy and it has historically been manipulated, to save things for short term extractive gain by somebody who's just like: "Oh hand wave this, hand wave that, it's true buy this thing". And then--
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: People are like -- people very-- it's very logical, how people are starting to have sort of like almost like an auto immune response to--
Dorn Cox: Right
Gregory Landua: The knowledge, the gatekeepers of knowledge--
Dorn Cox: Right and so, I think that's really important I know you put a lot of effort into Regen Network and thinking about the governance and making-- and so forth, and I also know very clearly in conversations with you that the struggle of interpreting all of the underlying mechanisms that are necessary to actually create a system with integrity it-- even though it's --you're working through that, all of that work is complex I mean. Look at what we're trying -- we're nationally struggling with the civics lesson right now and understanding just the basic way in which you know, a democracy should function or the way it was, you know the tools that we should have at our fingertips, to make that system work and we're talking in some ways of a much greater level of civic engagement
Gregory Landua: Totally
Dorn Cox: You know like natural resource management as a civic you know-- governance is part of our civic obligation
Gregory Landua: Totally
Dorn Cox: And that's asking-- we're asking a lot more of people and I also think that people want it, and are capable of and you know I think that's if we're co- creating this together, it will actually not be something you or I design, it will be actually a product that is interpretable by people because they helped to create it
Gregory Landua: Well that's the biggest-- so the biggest tension I see and maybe the biggest you know--the doubters, the skeptics of everything that we're saying that devil's advocate voice is going to say at this moment, enters in and says: "Is that really what people want? Are people really willing to participate? Are people really willing to change their habits? Or, is there some innate human nature thing that the Googles and Facebooks of the world are just successfully--
Dorn Cox: Yeah I mean I think it's just [inaudible 1:12:06]
Gregory Landua: We are all just want to be tacit consumers just--
Dorn Cox: Yeah, yeah
Gregory Landua: Just let the machine make my decisions for me and feed me a healthy diet of entertainment and junk food and I'm fine
Dorn Cox: Yeah I mean and yeah I think this is sort of our overall, you know. The-- what's the long term trajectory of you know this human experiment right of -- yeah and what's, you know what can we accomplish short term and what are we working towards in terms of the long term potential? So I think that's -- it's a fair question and we've also seen huge success stories within our lifetimes. In terms of the advances, not in terms of our --how we are managing our environment, but how we're working with one another, so I think you know all the development you know. So many development goals have are moving you know, we made tremendous progress on, we just have to do this in terms of how we relate to the environment and that has these unique characteristics that we're talking about
Gregory Landua: Yeah, so, what? I mean there's a couple different branching places for the conversation to go. What are you most excited for in the coming year? Like, what is the-- what do you think Open Team is going to accomplish by the end of the year, that may be is beyond what you could've seen when you're still --when this was still an inception?
Dorn Cox: Yeah, I mean I guess that's one of the things that gives me hope is how willing people are across-- from back in, you know first of all that Open Team even made as much progress as it did after you know I feel like maybe I haven't been having these conversations with you for a decade, but I've been having these conversations for a very long time and a very few people are willing to engage, until the last year and that we've also been able to take this from something that's more of a philosophical conversation to translate that into an organization and communities and tools and things that people are building and acting on, and that's essentially reflected in Open Team, but also in so many other conversations that are happening, you know when we-- you know when we go back to a few weeks ago where we have you know Bob Stallman, the former President of the-- Farm Hero introducing Al Gore to talk about regenerative agriculture
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: You know, that right there shows where the potential is and I don't think I could have said that, that was going to happen like three months ago even, you know that would-- that that transitioned and they have US farmers and ranchers alliance embracing the idea that yeah agriculture is part of not just this-- you know part of the solution, but a major potential you know part of the solution
Gregory Landua: Well the beautiful thing about the regenerative agriculture awareness movement potential is that-- it so rightfully put farmers in the center of the conversation again
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: After so long it sort of like being kind of marginalized as just
Dorn Cox: Rather than these sort of back like I said these sort of backwards, you know low information world enterprises, as opposed to no actually
Gregory Landua: Or just make mentions on the --like on the other side like maybe there's sort of a dual thing in our culture right now that's being transformed which is farmers are either sort of just backward, you know [inaudible 1:16:24]
Dorn Cox: Or these food elitist
Gregory Landua: Or they're just driving the [inaudible 1:16:28] they just like
Dorn Cox: Or we have these local food elitist that are like that you know out of Brooklyn you know
Gregory Landua: Or local food elitist, but, what I think is happening right is that the complexity and the dynamic nature and the integral part of agriculture in our society and farmers and land stewards as kind of like as a foundational class of citizens, that we all rely on, and rely on us and are just sort of part of this, you know yeah, part of our society is becoming more and more aware. People are becoming more and more aware of that its --
Dorn Cox: Yeah so that, I mean that's what I mean I think the pace of change has been something that surprised me a lot and in a good way that's given me hope and I think it's a time where people are really looking for things that are hopeful
Gregory Landua: Hmm
Dorn Cox: So I think that's really-- but it's not Pollyannaish, it's based -- this is all achievable too, I think that's what's exciting is that this is -- the solution is right potentially right there and I think the other piece that is really encouraging and it comes out of this I think shift in framing from like practice based standards and sort of limit and you know essentially all these tools that we've used to sort of put guide rails around agriculture. Towards, and I you know, grow up on organic farm still fairly you know diversified regenerative organic farm selling to local markets, you know that's where I'm coming from. But I think one of the most positive things that's happened, is the shift towards-- away from sort of this practice based certification towards outcome based measurements and that allows for innovation and to bring people together in some of the shared understanding of what we're trying to achieve together and so soil health was the first way in which we did that. In terms of reframing and talking about soil health, as being something that we can agree on and it's not about and you can say: "Oh it has this climate effect, it has this economic effect, it has this you know all these different you know positive potential beneficial thing". But it's something that we can measure and they're lots of ways to get there. The ways to get there are by and large biological I mean but it allows for you know conventional, large scale, small scale, animal agriculture, you know, row crop production, praedial crop, all that in the same conversation.
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: And that to me is the foundation for so much of this next conversation around regenerative and also why I think and really encourage you know when we started even with Open Team, we weren't -- didn't feel comfortable widely using regenerate even though that's where I'm personally coming from and that was a powerful word to it now being a mainstream concept and so that is also--
Gregory Landua: Yeah
Dorn Cox: It has the same characteristics as soil health, is that there are approaches to achieve regenerative outcomes, but fundamentally it's something that is outcome based it's neutral, it's sort of-- it can be scientifically quantifiably measured and improved with over time and yes, and so often I push back and say we're doing regenerative practices well that's not regenerative agriculture your work perhaps that put you in your mind you're working towards but until we measure this change of overtime it's not regenerative and that is actually a positive thing in my mind.
Gregory Landua: Hmm
Dorn Cox: And culturally and it's where again we have an opportunity to collaborate and improve the way we measure it and again become really good at create-- innovation and how we get there. So we have producers like Gabe Brown that may be using herbicide, but also doing phenomenal work in other --you know other ways and innovating and they can have a conversation with somebody who's choosing not to use herbicides and maybe that's their -- good reasons to do one or the other, but actually we have a bridge in that conversation
Gregory Landua: Hmm um
Dorn Cox: And I don't think there's --and so I think that's something that I'm seeing happen and I'm seeing it happen not just between farmers, but I'm seeing it happen with researchers. I'm seeing the power of that with the environmental service market places and financial instruments and government agency. I mean, the more we can move towards outcome based measurement rather than, you know some of this specific sort of more prescriptive approaches I think the better, it just requires some more work upfront and have the tools to actually do those measurements, but culturally I think it's an incredible important and what I am most excited about I think
Gregory Landua: Yeah, fantastic, well cool. That's a good answer, I mean it has also surprised me and it's totally taken me off guard, the speed at which regenerative agriculture has become front and center in the national and I think even global discourse around that
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: On so many different levels and it seems to be succeeding at breaking down barriers. I don't sense that-- I mean I think that there's obviously that you know the agricultural sector tend to be fairly conservative and adopts things slowly, so it's not as if all of this is gonna happen overnight, but it really feels true to me that the foundational concept of outcomes and soil health and--
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: It's sort of like, it's dissolving, so many of the polarities that--
Dorn Cox: Well
Gregory Landua: That I was worried might get in the way--
Dorn Cox: Yeah, I think that the thing that we're again I'm excited about where Open Team and other member organizations can come in and accelerate their processes when we start measuring some of these other benefits. Environmental service benefits, you know phosphorus use efficiency, or nitrogen use efficiency, you know how much of the-- how far can we drop our inputs?
Gregory Landua: Hmm
Dorn Cox: To get these other desirable outputs that becomes it's sort of these data driven stories we tell about agriculture. I think become again really, exciting points of intersection and also not just-- as I mention between farmer to farmer, but also to help reduce some of the distrust of the technology that we're using because we're actually using to get direct feedback on the land. And, I think this is again, one of those things where-- and it create intersections between again personal use of technology with some of the government data sets and satellite imagery and then ideally shifting our relationship with the-- you know the buyers of food, whether they're large or small. So, I, but these-- the--I think again it's one of these things where the --because of the way that we're able -- we're just starting to shift the way we talk about agriculture, the way we talk about measurement, the way we talk about the environment. It allows us to create a very different relationship again with science, with commerce, with markets and yeah and with each other, so anyways that's there are lots of little examples of that--that I think are happening every day at this point.
Gregory Landua: Yeah well, can we do a 180 degree shift to the conversation here? The next question, I have is around, so to frame it. You know ever since that most of the founders of what we currently call the internet
Dorn Cox: Yeah
Gregory Landua: Were enormously idealistic and had-- they had this understanding that what they were building sort of had no downside and it was going to transform the world in this--
Dorn Cox: Oh yeah
