A Whole of the River Approach: Science and Sustainable Development

Season 2: Episode 9 of the Rethinking Development Podcast

Professor Khan is the Director of the UNESCO Regional Science Bureau for Asia and the Pacific and also serves as the UNESCO Representative for Brunei Darussalam, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines, and Timor-Leste. His key leadership and management areas at UNESCO have included science capacity building and policy advice across the region. He has coordinated key programs such as Water Education for Sustainable Development, Ecohydrology, water and ethics and many others. He is a founding fellow of the Academy of Engineering and Technology of the Developing World. He previously served as the Research Director of the Irrigated Systems and Rural Water Use areas of The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization and as Professor of Hydrology and Director of the International Centre of Water at the Charles Sturt University in Australia where he conducted policy research on the nexus of water, energy and food. He also continues to serve as Adjunct Professor at numerous universities in Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan and China. He speaks to us about some of his scientific research, the importance of understanding the perspectives of different stakeholders, data sharing across national boundaries, having tangible impact on the lives of beneficiaries, using a whole of the river and a whole of society approach, social inequalities and the environment, public-private partnerships, mobilizing all sectors of society, UNESCO’s COVID-19 related work and much more. He joins us from Canberra, Australia.

Editors note: This transcript has been slightly edited for clarity and coherence.

Transcript

Intro: There’s simply not enough money in the system. That’s number one. The world is struggling and now with COVID and the slowdown of economy, it will be an even bigger challenge. There are competing demands for any government. The demands of health, the demands of education, making sure people have decent jobs, that there are incentives for industries, that there are incentives for making sure that different services for society continue…

Safa: Welcome back to the Rethinking Development Podcast. My name is Safa and I will be your host as we speak with and learn from practitioners of all backgrounds and affiliations around the world. In our conversations, we aim to rethink ethical behavior and best practices through the lived experiences and personal reflections of different practitioners. Our guest today is Professor Shahbaz Khan. Professor Khan is currently the Director of the UNESCO Regional Science Bureau for Asia and the Pacific and also serves as the UNESCO Representative for Brunei Darussalam, Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and Timor Leste. He joined UNESCO in 2008 as Chief of the Water and Sustainable Development section at the UNESCO Division of Water Sciences based in Paris. His key leadership and management areas at UNESCO have included science capacity building and policy advice across the region. Professor Khan has coordinated key programs such as water education for sustainable development, ecohydrology, water and ethics, amongst many others. He previously served as the Research Director of the Irrigated Systems and Rural Water Use Areas of the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia and also served as Professor of Hydrology and Director of the International Centre of Water at the Charles Sturt University in Australia, where he conducted policy research on the nexus of water, energy and food. Professor KhAn also continues to serve as Adjunct Professor at numerous universities in Australia, New Zealand, Pakistan and China. Professor Khan, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

Shahbaz: Thank you very much Safa for such a nice introduction and for inviting me to your very interesting podcast.

Safa: Thank you so much. Maybe we can begin by you first telling us about the experiences or reasons that you were interested to study climate and water management and the reasons that kind of motivated you to pursue that career path.

Shahbaz: I grew up in a farming family in Pakistan. So people who are struggling with their day to day life, basic needs, like food, to have enough to be able to survive a year, and water plays a very important role. And then also in Pakistan, there is a big challenge for coping with climate variability and climate change. So one year there can be a lot of rain, it can lead also to floods and there can be years when there can be droughts. So that always intrigued my mind, how do we study? How do we help our farmers? And can there be a better life for everyone? Pakistan is a country which is very rich in water resources with many rivers and the irrigation system is very special. And I wanted to be an engineer, a civil engineer, engineers who work on the issues related to conveyance of water, linking with dams, with barrages, and to explore the wonders of the world. So that’s how I became fascinated with water. And that has continued throughout my life and I came to Australia, where water is a key driver for growth as well and Australia is one of the most arid countries. So that’s where I continued my journey into water resources, climate variability, climate change, dealing with food security, with human security, and many times also issues related to conflict and water. And within the United Nations system, as you mentioned, working in the area of water management in Paris gave me the opportunity to see these issues in other countries and now in Asia Pacific, with the Sustainable Development Goals and challenges of sustainable development.

Safa: Very interesting. During your academic studies, at that stage, were your career aspirations to remain in the academic sector, in the research sector, or from that earlier age, did you know that you would also like to contribute to sustainable development work and help with advising governments and working in multilateralism? Or is that just something that kind of evolved naturally?

Shahbaz: Now working in UNESCO, I have a very different thinking than maybe when I was a student. My point of view is sustainable development can only be possible if everyone contributes — every individual on this earth, whether student, whether farmer, in a city, somebody working in a private company, somebody in academia, or someone working in the United Nations system. So I have evolved from personal thinking all the way to be able to contribute to negotiations at the level of the United Nations. But throughout this continuum — sustainable development is not something independent of the lives of individuals. So everything we do in this world contributes one way or to the other, for better or for worse outcomes. And that’s where for sustainable development we have to get our thinking right, that everyone has to play a role. And in those roles, we have to carefully think what do we want for ourselves, our planet, and how do we make sure that nobody is left behind?

Safa: One of your earlier experiences was working at the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in Australia. Could you speak to us a bit about the work that you were doing there and what you were focusing on in that organization and your work there?

Shahbaz: Safa, I was working right in the middle of the Murray Darling Basin, there is a place called Griffith, so I was head of irrigation research. This was a time when there was a millennium drought from year 2000–2010. So there was not much water to go around, farmers were struggling, but also there was a big pressure that we should give most of this water back to the environment. Australia is a very interesting country. If there was no water, no irrigation, the population would only be in big cities like Melbourne or in Sydney or Perth. So how do we make sure that the socio economics of those regional areas continue? So my work was to look into how can we make water management more efficient? How can we grow more crops per drop? How can we create better social and environmental outcomes? And how do we build capacity among farmers? So there were many tough conversations. There were many arguments and the divisions across society and being the leader for irrigation research, I was called upon both from the city dwellers as well as from the farmers to help resolve many of these issues. In the process, working very carefully for the role of science to be independent and providing the right kind of information, facts and figures, keeping impartial stance but at the same time making sure that we have the right facts and figures and taking a systems view. How does the whole water equation work? How can we look across the whole river system, right from the upper catchments all the way into the sea into south Australia? So in that case, there were many challenges for science from the point of view of growing a plant, how much water is needed for different plants? How much water goes through soil? How much water should go back to the river? What is the link with the climate, the practices which farmers are doing in terms of growing rice, or wheat or maize? Are they the best practices? Or can we really change? And if we change, what would be the benefits to the environment? What would be the benefits to the farmers? And can it be sustainable? So there were many of those kind of challenges, I published a lot at that time. But very importantly, I contributed to the national debate, and in the process of my research was recognized by UNESCO, and also by the Australian government and many stakeholders. So that has been a very fascinating part of my journey in the area of water and climate.

Safa: Wonderful. That’s so interesting. You mentioned the different needs and perspectives of farmers who are struggling versus city dwellers and the different stakeholders, sometimes there are debates or arguments, in those situations what have you found to be maybe some approaches that have helped you ensure that all stakeholders’ voices are heard and considered in the process of policymaking or in the process of creating responses to these needs?

Shahbaz: The most important thing Safa was to understand what are the perspectives. For example, if you go to a farmer and to a farm or to an irrigation district, a farmer may think they are the best farmers in the world, they do not waste any water, the channels never leak, irrigation area is most efficient. And if you hear the views of the environmentalist, they say these are the worst farmers in the world, they do not do the proper irrigation practices, there is a lot of salt which is mobilized. Then also there may be views from the regulators that the water is being not measured properly, there is a lot of wastage, and also unaccounted flow. So you can imagine now with all these different views, and science has to play a role in the middle of all of this. So, as a scientist, as someone responsible for the area of irrigation management with many colleagues working with me, I needed to make sure that we hear all those perspectives. So as step number one, we bring all the stakeholders together. And this was really very bold when there were many people who were very skeptical of the science as well saying that scientists can be bought, issues can be dealt by the scientists and consultants the way somebody pays them. So how do we keep our independent stance in that case? So very carefully, building databases, building evidence, looking into the soil systems, looking into the cropping systems, looking into how much water is coming from where, how it travels through the catchments, how it goes through the irrigation canals, applying new technologies, like drones, special ways of looking through the canals with the relativity service, also looking into measurement of the water which is going on different crops, looking into the leakages, bringing the best of the technologies from the satellites, and then very carefully building the balances and the evidence, which can track where the water came from, how it has been used, if there are some losses where those losses have gone, have those losses been captured by somebody else? And then very importantly, if there is a balance sheet of the water resources within an irrigation area or within a catchment, how do we compare with the rest of the world? Is it possible to improve further? And if there is further improvement, what would be the investment needed? And who should pay for it? Should it be farmers, should it be environment, should it be larger society? And if we have to have cheap food, for example, cheap maize or different fruits or drinking wine which is enjoyable and people want to have it, but if it is to be kept low then who should pay for it? Is it the farmers job or society should pay for some of these gains? Also giving to all the workers working in my team the chance that they are heard and their skills are being properly used and also linking with the society at large and linking with universities and looking into collaboration with other countries so that we can do comparative analysis as well. So once this kind of work could be compiled, after five or six years of collection, of data analysis, of modelling, working together with the farmers as well as with the wider society, provided the basis for those dialogues, which helped resolve these big issues. And that led to a 10 year John Howard’s investment of 10 billion Australian dollars, where much of my research and my colleagues research was used to guide where should we save water, how to apply technologies, who should pay, how can we recover some of those water resources. So basically it is not some job to be done within a very short period of time. It is work which has to be consistent over a longer period, working closely with all stakeholders, building trust, and bringing the credibility which people put their trust in.

Safa: Absolutely. You touched on so many important points. In terms of the political considerations, sometimes when there is strong evidence base or strong scientific argument for a particular issue, whether it’s around environmental issue, climate issue, whatever the example is, sometimes despite the scientific evidence base, or the scientific research, or the scientific arguments and lobbying, there is a lack of political will. So in your experiences of working with governments or advocating with governments, what have you found to be the challenges or the best ways to approach trying to shore up political will or get governments to support and buy into the findings of scientific research?

Shahabz: Very importantly, issues like water, climate change, the issues of food security, they are no more the issues for a particular location. These issues are connected beyond the immediate boundaries, they go across many of the political boundaries as well. So that’s where we need to think bigger and think about the bigger system. We cannot solve any matter related to river unless we take a whole of the river approach, whole of the catchment approach. If we are tackling the climate change issues, then we have to think of the bigger, whole of the world approach, as you know, with the Paris Agreement. And also, there are many issues of the rivers which are across many of the political boundaries. And that’s where there may be neighbours who may not like to work with each other. So that’s where cooperation is the key. Participatory approaches are very, very important, data sharing on time is critical for saving lives, for example, for issues to deal with floods, and longer term impacts of droughts, issues related to climate change where many of the countries may be at the receiving end, for example, Pakistan which may not have as much development compared to many of the other countries, which have developed much earlier and have a much bigger climate change footprint because of those kinds of bigger global challenges. Many countries are at the receiving end, and there may be some countries which are too small, for example, like Timor Leste, to be able to deal with many of the challenges because of issues of capacity, the issues related to investment. So that’s something we need to bring forward to solve any of these issues of sustainable development related to natural resources, related to water resources, related to climate change. We have to think much bigger than our own boundaries and we need to go beyond biases and also very importantly, from the research point of view, how do we de-learn from what we know? And how do we learn what others know? And how do we bring the bigger picture together by bringing social scientists, natural scientists, engineers, people who are working on the legal issues. And that’s where there are many barriers from the nomenclature point of view, from the social biases point of view, from the political considerations point of view, as you mentioned, how do we get over those political considerations where the issue may be very different than what the politician may be thinking in terms of winning the immediate wars and making the scenes where a wider public is happy but the natural resource management challenges still remain. And that’s where the only way forward for us is to make our arguments on the basis of the best science available at any time and make sure that we do not get biased by any political agenda, we continue to look for the truth, make sure that we build trust that science, what is being done from the science and research has the credibility and has the buy in by those stakeholders who need to make tough decisions.

Safa: Yes, as you say, you mentioned earlier that this process requires trust building and time. I also want to ask you about an experience that you had working as part of the team that developed a computer based early warning system for floods in Pakistan. Could you speak to us a bit about that experience and the impact of that work?

Shahbaz: This project about floods in Pakistan is something I’ve done over many years. When I graduated from Birmingham and went back to Pakistan, this was one of the first projects I was assigned. And one of the challenges at that time and still it remains, is how do we access data across boundaries, like between India and Pakistan who may not be very willing to share the data. So at that time, in the late 1990s, we installed weather radars, radars which could look up to more than 400 kilometers from where they were installed, and they could look into where the rain is falling and how we convert the data from the radar into the precipitation data. And then we use some models which can then provide an estimate of how that precipitation, that rainfall, turns into flow and flow into the rivers and how this water flows from the rivers all the way through different boundaries. So that was the work in the late 1990s. And then I moved to Australia where I already explained some of the work on irrigation and other water resources issues. But I kept my interest in the challenge of managing floods and issues related to transboundary water. So in 2010, I was working in Paris and there was a very bad flood in Pakistan, which affected more than 20 million people and it caused colossal losses, more than 2,000 people lost their lives. So I was sent along with some other experts and we explored what are the reasons. One of the reasons was that the data is not adequate still. And this time now the challenges have shifted to the bigger Indus River, there is a climate shift which has caused the water to come from a different catchment than what used to be before and we need to use now maybe satellite based information, the radars may not be enough. So that’s where we worked with the colleagues from Japan, especially from one of the UNESCO Centres in Scuba, and we worked with the Pakistan Metrology Department, we worked with the engineers from the Water and Power Development Authority, and from the Irrigation Departments to develop an early warning system, which goes right up to the borders with the Nepal on one side, on the other side, it looks into Afghanistan. Also the models are capable of looking into the rainfall in India. So, looking into all those upper catchments and building a database of what are the kind of soils, what is the kind of vegetation, how the topography looks like, and bringing this information into computers, so basically capturing how the catchments are into the computers. Then on top of that, bringing in the power of satellite technologies, which can give us an idea about the precipitation. So, we brought that along with the models of the catchments, the vegetation and soil, and built a computer system which can give us lead times of more than two weeks in most places to forecast what would be the amount of rain, amount of flow, and if the flow goes through the river, up to what level it can reach. If there is a barrage which is breached, what would be the implications, and if the protection levees are breached, what would the limitations. Where are the schools, where are the protection places, and doing different type of scenarios in a real time environment. But at the same time building capacity of the local people, so they will not depend on UNESCO to help them over and over again, and at the same time, creating cooperation among countries, for example, between Afghanistan and Pakistan, so that they can learn from each other. Because one of the rivers, Kabul river, is a transboundary river between these two countries. So building such capacity, they can build their own models, they can have cooperation, also bringing the latest education to the universities and linking them with the universities in Japan so that our graduates can be the new developers of such technologies. Also, very importantly, strengthening the data. Strengthening the data means, how can we measure the data of rainfall, of sunshine, of evaporation, so many of those, what we call, climatological parameters on the ground so that we can compare them with the information coming in from the satellite, but at the same time using the telephone technologies so that this data, in very difficult terrain, can directly come to the Metrology Offices or we can access this data anywhere in the world using the internet. And we have to make sure that the technology is well understood by the local people. And this technology can be replicated, and it should not be too expensive. So from one such weather station, which was supposed to be for $50,000, with the local indigenous effort, and by coaching and training people, we brought the cost to less than $5,000. And we installed many of them. We created cooperation between of Afghanistan and Pakistan, between different provinces of Pakistan, between different departments, cooperation and avoiding conflict. This project is operational. The models have been handed over, cooperation between Japan and Pakistan and Afghanistan still continues. And now the next generation of improvements are being done by the Pakistani engineers themselves.

Safa: What a fantastic project. In cases where, you know, you mentioned in this case there was a flood or in the previous examples where there was a drought — in these situations where people’s lives have been lost and lives continue to be in peril or in vulnerable situations, is the feeling of responsibility or the speed in which you work or your colleagues and yourself work, is that effected? Does that have an impact on how you approach the project, knowing that it really has such a tangible and immediate impact on people’s livelihoods?

Shahbaz: This is a very important question. How can all those people who are linked with the river system catchments, with our wider climate, how can they be the real beneficiaries and our work becomes tangible and we are not publishing work for creating more papers and journals and all of that. That really remains a challenge for all of us. So in this case, for example, the case of Pakistan, very importantly, the ideas which need to be tackled have to come from the real stakeholders. So we must involve them right from the beginning. So there is a very good acceptance. And then also making sure the political powers are well aware. There is also a connection at the political level and mobilizing the embassies of the countries, creating linkages among relevant ministries across different countries. That’s all very, very important. On the ground level, it is very important for the local people to understand what do they do which makes a difference? For example, how can they become part of solution rather than a part of the problems? How do we make sure that they do not deforest, for example, the catchments? What can be the opportunities for them by having better management practices? So that’s all very important. And now coming to similar issues in Southeast Asia, especially Indonesia, there is a very big challenge of deforestation, for example. And we have a UNESCO Man and Biosphere program, UNESCO World Heritage program, especially for the tropical rainforest heritage of Sumatra. There are similar challenges here, how do we promote protection of the forest, protection of orangutans? How do we make sure people are proud of their heritage, but they do not starve? So there is a challenge for us to create opportunities in terms of tourism, in terms of the local industries, creativity, mobilizing the youth, so there is a sense of ownership by the communities and communities are taking the right kind of action. In Citarum River, which is passing through all the catchments, the upper catchments and coming to Jakarta, we have challenges, like how do we educate people that they don’t throw plastic? How do we make sure that the waste from houses is not going straight into the river? How do we make sure that the pumping of groundwater in cities like Jakarta can be controlled, that the subsidence does not continue, shorelines do not continue to sink? Climate change is causing the sea level to rise, but because of the pumping, it will make the cities go down even faster. What is the future? These kinds of challenges still exist. And that’s where I say tragedy of the commons. Because there is this challenge of making sure everyone is becoming part of the solution. Some people think if they do something different than the sustainable way of doing, then everyone will be following those non sustainable practices and in the long run, there would be a big challenge to managing the sustainability and that’s where the issues of responsibility of education, political will, political awareness, and the longer term benefits by doing the right thing, all of them become very, very important.

Safa: In your work in UNESCO, what have been your experiences with navigating the financial system in terms of allocating donor funding or funding from private sectors resources or the challenges that come with sometimes competition for funding or the conditions of funding or lack of funding? Earlier you mentioned the question of who should pay for what, what role should different stakeholders play in terms of the investment question? So could you please tell us a bit about your thoughts on the financial system that exists?

Shahbaz: Everyone has to play their role. That’s my first conclusion of working at the international, global level. How do we make sure that people understand what is the fair role for everyone to play? From the point of view of actions, from the point of view of financing. So all those challenges are in one way or the other, very similar, whether it is at a smaller scale or at the level of the country or at the level of region or for the whole world. So there’s simply not enough money in the system. That’s number one. The world is struggling. And now with COVID, and the slowdown of economy, it would be even a bigger challenge. There are competing demands for any government, the demands of health, the demand of education, making sure people have decent jobs, there are incentives for the industries, there are incentives for making sure that different services for society continue. And also being a global citizen and for the government to feel obliged to help others, to have more cooperation, whether it’s south south or north south or triangular cooperation. So all that continues. From UNESCO’s point of view, it’s our duty to bring to fore what are the key challenges? What are the benefits of investment, how can the nations work with each other and create a greater global good? I’ll give you one example, which is with the government of Malaysia. With the government of Malaysia, we have successfully created a funds in trust, which is not for only benefiting Malaysia, of course Malaysia will benefit, but how other countries, especially small island and developing states and wider Asia Pacific can benefit by working together. It’s not just about money, but how our resources of intellectual capacity and our progress in the universities and research institutes can work better. So this is one area which has benefited Malaysia as well as other countries. Also for nations to think about investing into their own key priorities, and especially in the area of social inequalities, in the areas of managing natural resources, and looking into longer term sustainability. That’s where, with the government of Indonesia, we have a wonderful experience in terms of creating a self benefiting funds in trust looking into issues like sustainable management of the tropical rainforest heritage of Sumatra or looking into the issues of lakes and wetlands, issues related to people with disabilities, education through Green School. So there are a lot of those examples which we have. But the United Nations system alone and these efforts are not enough. We need to mobilize the whole society. Businesses have to play a much bigger role, public-private investments into areas which are related to environmental challenges, social challenges, social inequalities, and now human health and the digital divide and the health divide which is there. So we have to work across societies. For the global businesses, they have to pay more attention to where their stakeholders are, where they’re making money, how those stakeholders can benefit from it. Having ethical practices and making sure the benefits are shared back with those people who are generating those benefits. For example, for agricultural produce, which is moving across the world, for the goods and services which are being provided, how do we make sure there is the element of fairness? So we have to continue encouraging the governments to do the right kind of investments, and at the same time, create a whole of society approach. There are some countries who are doing many excellent work of supporting others. For example, the Government of Japan with the Japan funds in trust, Korea with KOICA. We have a $6 million dollar project in the Philippines where we are looking into establishing facilities for out of school girls, at the same time helping build the capacity of the department of education in alternative learning systems. So there are many of those good examples. And then those examples need to be further strengthened by bringing public-private investment from the countries themselves.

Safa: So everybody, as you say, has a role to play. I also wanted to ask you about — you are a founding fellow of the Academy of Engineering and Technology of the Developing World. Could you speak to us about that role and what the vision is for that academy or the mandate of that academy?

Shahbaz: Safa, there is a divide in the world. The political tensions are there. Also, there is a difference of development across nations. Some nations are much more developed. The accreditation systems for many of the professional bodies are so tough, that maybe other countries may not become members. And maybe that’s also the purpose of an accreditation system, that the professionals should be accredited on the basis of competence and on the basis of making sure that their skill sets are at the right level. So, this particular Academy aims to make sure that those countries who have little capacity or who are coming up with new ideas and also at the same time developing their own human resources in terms of engineering, they can be mentored by other countries who have done this journey already. So, in this regard, we have been working with many engineering organizations in Asia Pacific. Being an engineer myself and coming from a country like Pakistan and having knowledge of the capacity needs of different nations, I have been trying to promote the twinning, mentoring kind of models so that we can help create quality assurance systems, help create learning for the universities, as well as for the professional bodies, and the graduates themselves for the greater mobility of professionals. So for that, UNESCO has developed guidelines with the Federation of Engineering Institutions in Asia Pacific and also with founding of the Academy of Engineering and Technology of the Developing World. We are trying to bring greater capacity and mentorship, and also giving a chance to everyone so nobody’s left behind. And then once these nations have reached a higher level of learning and the professional bodies are accredited through such systems, they can then become part of the global accreditation systems which presently only a few nations enjoy. So that’s what we are trying to do, to have inclusive sustainable development and giving pathways to every professional in the area of especially engineering, that they can be mobile, they can earn the respect which is needed, but also they should improve their own lives and improve the lives of millions around them. They should become tech-entrepreneurs and should be able to move to other countries with the same level of accreditation. That’s what we are trying to do.

Safa: Wonderful, so if there’s someone interested in joining the Academy, is it just that they apply?

Shahbaz: They can contact me. We are happy to put them in contact with other professional bodies who are part of such initiatives, we can help them link with the right training and opportunities.

Safa: In terms of the human rights based perspective, for example, the right to clean drinking water, have you found that using that approach, using that argument is something that has helped you when you are trying to build collaboration or trying to advocate for an issue? Is that an approach that you use yourself?

Shahbaz: Certainly. The human rights based approach is very, very important. So for example, here in Indonesia with Komnas HAM, the Human Rights Commission, we have been working on how do we mainstream human rights into sustainable development, into the SDGs? But there are difficulties at the same time. Well, let’s imagine water is a basic human right, but what kind of water? It must be of the right quality and it should be of the right quantity. And it should be available to everyone but how much of it should be available to everyone? Who will pay for it? So those are big challenges. Water as a human right is acknowledged, approved by the United Nations General Assembly. And the government’s have to of course invest, the businesses should invest as part of their CSR programs, and the big philanthropists must invest into it so that we can create opportunities. There are not many nations who are able to provide such basic human rights to all. Education is a basic human right. But we need books, we need schools. So that’s where the investments from the governments and investments from the wider society have to be carefully thought through and making sure those rights are being provided. In Indonesia, as you know, we have also been working with people with disabilities. How do we make sure people with disabilities get access to different parts of the city and the amenities they have? The network we have created with the network of the mayors of different cities is working very well, where there is a lot of ownership and pride that my city is an inclusive city, so it creates awareness, pride by doing the right things, and making sure human rights are highlighted. So those are the challenges for the wider United Nations system and the human consciousness has to continue to bring to fore all the rights of everyone and the environment and making sure that nobody is left behind. So that’s the biggest challenge. If we can overcome social inequalities, the world would be much safer, much more sustainable, full of opportunities for everyone. And until we reach that level, we will not have done the Sustainable Development mission right.

Safa: In your experiences working at UNESCO, especially in a leadership position, have you found that there is enough diversity in positions of leadership generally in UN agencies and agencies that are working in the international development sector? Whether that’s diversity, gender, nationality, or background. Sometimes these positions have a very much political motivation behind who is appointed. So what are your thoughts on the representation and diversity that you’ve observed or seen in this sector generally?

Shahbaz: Anyone can be a part of the United Nations, this is my very strong conviction. From an intern all the way to the positions of leadership. Of course, we need to make sure there is a representation of all nations. In UNESCO there is very careful consideration for gender. That’s very important, number one, and within the United Nations system, making sure that we give due consideration to gender and it does not mean for female colleagues only. Making sure gender is mainstreamed. We are conscious about it. Secondly, for the geographic distribution. And geographic distribution is a very important part of the processes of recruitment. And of course, there are considerations for making sure different regions and nations are empowered. So the system has to take care of all those different variables, the competence of the person is at the center of it as well, making sure that we have the right person for the right job. So that complicates the process beyond what would be the normal recruitment in a private company. But I am a very strong believer that competence does pay. In my case, I come from Pakistan, as I told you Safa, and I feel very satisfied with working in the United Nations system and making sure that as a leader myself at a certain level, I should also empower colleagues around me and making sure that there is no bias and no harassment, and everyone should be able to do their job in the best possible way, serving all nations.

Safa: Have you found that over the years, that the more that you have gained experience and worked in different issues, have your motivations in your work changed or has your focus or your interested become more focused on a certain aspect? Or has that been effected over the years?

Shahbaz: I would say yes. I am a very well founded scientist, into the theories of science and the laws of science, into research, into understanding the basics of how different things happen. Now with travelling around the world, working in different nations, I have become more and more convinced that social inequalities are a much bigger issue that than the challenges of natural resources. We have to create positive dialogue amongst societies. Science has to play a role but we must bring the social and natural sciences together. We must understand the perspectives of individuals, perspectives of nations, and make sure that there is dialogue. Global peace is a much bigger challenge than any other challenges within our time. We have to continue to work towards creating peace and sustainable development, as all of are doing. World peace is very fragile and it can be disrupted for many, I would say, unreasonable reasons. So understanding nations, understanding individuals, understanding social inequalities, understanding basic human rights and how they can be mainstreamed into our own lives and changing oneself. For myself, I have changed a lot over a period of time. I am not really the very, you can say, curious scientist that I use to be. I am more conscious of the challenges which everyone of us is facing in our lives and how can I bring my skills to help society, from my own home to the complex challenges of the world.

Safa: In your work as a professor or working with students or younger colleagues, are there certain perspectives or lessons or ideas that you always prioritize sharing with them in terms of the way that you think that the younger generation should perhaps face and deal with the problems at hand?

Shahbaz: Yes, certainly. First one is that we must give hope. When I talk to young people I am very happy to narrate my own story of coming from a small place and how I developed myself. We must work hard and we must think globally, act locally, be a global citizen. So that is one very important first message. Then of course there are many things we do not know. But of course we know many things as well. So how do we make sure we continue to research and look for the ideas, and at the same time, also apply what we know. Those are important things. Also link and cooperate with each other, create opportunities, give respect to all cultures, that is very very important.

Safa: Now we live in the time of the coronavirus pandemic and water, hygiene and sanitation issues and polices are taking on a heightened relevance just because of the global situation. Are there current project and activities that you or your team are working on to address the pandemic in the Asia Pacific region?

Shahbaz: Many. We have in the area of education ‘Education Never Stops’, we are helping nations with distant learning, blended learning. We are now also looking into safety of schools as schools re open and providing guidelines. So that is in the are of education. In the area of culture, how do we create a culture of understanding and how do we promote social distancing with the right kind of understanding of cultural contexts. And how tourism can face the new challenges. So we have projects related to culture. Then of course in the area of natural sciences, from building ventilators to understanding the testing methods, the data, big data, artificial intelligence, all the way to community based information, so we have access to many of those within our science family, UNESCO centres, UNESCO Chairs. We are looking into how can we monitor the sewage from different parts of the city to understand where are the hot spots for coronavirus. So there are a lot of those idea within water resources. How the environment is changing, how the environment is different, so within our biosphere program we have many activities related to that. We are promoting open science so that the science related to coronavirus can be shared across nations. Then in the area of communication and information, we are looking into the issues of fake news and social media use, making sure that the right kind of information is reaching people. Then in the area of social and human sciences, the issue of bias held by society to certain stereotypes or to certain people. So how do we make sure people overcome those during this difficult time. So there are many activities which we are currently doing in Asia Pacific. Yesterday we had a webinar where we brought all the UNESCO centres, UNESCO Chairs, and key universities looking into the issues related to coronavirus and natural sciences and a very big conclusion was the science has to now very carefully look into economy and society together in order to provide solutions for issues such as detection kits, vaccines all the way to creating opportunities at the local level with local industries. So for many of those things UNESCO is working together with stakeholders and with the member states. We should also think about the beneficiaries, the people who are never heard, how do we help those people we heard at different levels? That’s our challenge collectively. How do we empower societies? That is a struggle which we must continue.

Safa: Yes, the struggle continues, as you say. Professor Khan, thank you so much for speaking with us and sharing your thoughts. It has been a pleasure to learn from you and I really appreciate it, so thank you so much again.

Shahbaz: Thank you Safa, have a wonderful day.

Safa: Thank you also to our listeners. To keep up with our latest episodes, you can listen to us on your preferred podcast provider and follow us on social media. If you have listener questions that you would like me to us future guests, please feel free to email them to us at rethinkingdevelopmentpodcast@gmail.com . I look forward to having similar conversations with you all in the weeks to come. Until then, take care.