Episode #21: Will ZRX Be the Next Coin Added to Coinbase? 🤯🤯🤯

Deep Dive: 0x (ZRX) / VCs lobby for safe haven for ETH and its many children / Letters to the Blockchain

Coin Talk
Coin Talk
Apr 27, 2018 · 42 min read

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COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press “Listen to the story” above to play the episode. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)

Show Notes


Jay Kang: I feel like I’ve returned home.

Aaron Lammer: There’s way pegboard than there was last time you were here, right?

Jay Kang: Yeah. And there’s also some sort of acoustic, ceiling things going on I think that you just put in.

Aaron Lammer: Those have always been there.

Jay Kang: Oh, well they seem a bit askance, Aaron. Like I feel-

Aaron Lammer: They’re not straight at this point.

Jay Kang: Did you have like a small earthquake in here or something like that?

Aaron Lammer: No, I think I was just wrestling around behind the wire there. I had a little flood. That’s probably why everything got knocked askance. One thing I actually was curious to get your take on, I was reading Ryan Selkis’ email newsletter this morning. And he was commenting on now that we’re seeing a little light at the end of the tunnel, a little bounce back, like looking back on this big downturn that happened, what coins held their value the best against Bitcoin. This is something we’ve talked about, like-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Alt coins can be a lot of fun while you’re playing with them, but you’re gonna like … you’re gonna take a hit during a dip, and crunched what were the five coins that held their value the best. A couple of them I’m not familiar with Bytom, Zilliqa, ZXL, EOS, BNB, Binance coin and OmiseGo … OMG, your old favorite.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And the thing that he noticed amongst these coins that held their value the best, is that they’re all less than a year old.

Jay Kang: OMG is less than a year old?

Aaron Lammer: I guess so. I didn’t know that either. But what do you think about that? As we look at these other projects over time, do you think that there’s gonna be a recency bias where stuff that’s newer, people are more likely to hold on to during a downturn?

Jay Kang: I think I would ask a question before that-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Which is like what are we expecting to figure out? Like what do we think that this holding of value tells, right?

Aaron Lammer: Right. That’s a good question. I mean I would think it would be a signal of long term viability of the project that people are willing to hodl its tokens through a dark winter.

Jay Kang: Yeah. I guess I would just say that like a five then would be too small of a sample for me to think that was viable because something like BNB-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Which is the sort of utility token that Binance Exchange puts out.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: There are all sorts of reasons why it wouldn’t lose its value. It could be because people are actually still using it to trade during down periods of time. It could be that like CZ who is the guy who’s the head of Binance, it could be that he has all of them and just them throughout it. And I’m not saying any of this is true obviously, but I think that I would need a slightly larger sample size to figure out if there’s any sort of correlation or any sort of story that we could tell out of it.

Aaron Lammer: I like your take … that. I actually think there is an explanation in terms of BNB, which is that … I’m not positive about this but I think that Binance has started auto converting, what is referred to as dust. The like little-

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Bits of coins that are left over in transactions, they infinitesimal, decimal points into their native token, BNB-

Jay Kang: Wow.

Aaron Lammer: Automatically, so as not to leave you … Which I actually appreciate-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: ’Cause I’ve got … My Bittrex account is chockfull of weird scraps that are less than a coin, but that would kind of explain like an inflow of automated interest in BNB-

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: If every single transaction’s generating a little BNB for people.

Jay Kang: The subtext to all of this seems to be that coins in which people seem to have a lot of faith in both the technology and the longevity of the projects, did they do badly. Like … So something like monero, which we talk about here a lot, Zcash, Ethereum … I guess Ethereum probably … He wasn’t including that, was he?

Aaron Lammer: I don’t know.

Jay Kang: Well I mean Ethereum got wrecked anyway.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, Ethereum got pretty wrecked. I don’t know … Like I’m not sure exactly what has like pegs were, but like bottom Ethereum was wrecked to Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Like if you were holding all Ethereum, you did worse than someone who was holding all Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I think significantly worse. So I guess that would be the underlying question, right? Like did … Was there institutional and investor faith in these long term projects and in these big projects that allow them to weather this sort of storm better than something that felt completely like vaporware-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And that was just being ridden for like pumps and dumps? And he seems to have shown … at least in limited form, this is not … that maybe that wasn’t true.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I mean I agree the sample size was low and it does seem anecdotally like monero and Zcash and a lot these privacy coins that have more of a real world utility right now did hold their value pretty well compared to like alt as a whole. But I kind of agree with you. Like someone was saying that those privacy coins have done well recently because of like … like some porn thing accepting them or something like-

Jay Kang: Pornhub.

Aaron Lammer: What’s that?

Jay Kang: Pornhub.

Aaron Lammer: Pornhub accepting them. So as usual, I think there’s like maybe too many factors to read a lot of these things clearly.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: But that’s an interesting idea in its own right, that like there are so many forces acting on these coins that to try to draw any sort of a singular narrative of it, is to draw a false narrative around it.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: But I would … I wish I could just sort … Like ’cause a lot of these projects, I don’t know how old they are. I love that this was more like Saved by the Bell classes, you know? Where it was like the first year of alts, the second year of alts, like next generation. You know? Because I do think that-

Jay Kang: This summer with Stacey Carosi.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I think that they … I do think the different waves of this stuff are pretty different from each other and how you would evaluate a project that’s like one year old, versus a project that’s like two or three years old would be different in your expectations of how far along they would be and … I wish as an investor, I had more of a thesis about the age of the projects that I’m buying into.

Jay Kang: Yeah. I have no idea either and honestly there is part of me that … When I think about a project that’s very old and I research it and there’s not much new about it, I sometimes wonder if it still exists or not. So I wanted to talk to you about something which is that … This is a story out of China that I actually found interesting-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: In terms of people always asking this. I guess it’s the infinite question about what is the blockchain, does it actually have any applications, and it China it seems like … And look, this heavy caveated story … I don’t know if it’s real-

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: It was on Yahoo, so can take that for what it is.

Aaron Lammer: Probably not real then.

Jay Kang: But in China, there was a student who was looking into sexual harassment at a university 20 years as part of sorta this extension of MeToo I would say. And like there’s a documentary about this recently called Red Sparrow, which was a very similar narrative in which somebody’s looking back in the past. Did you see that?

Aaron Lammer: Wait, isn’t Red Sparrow that most recent like Russian action thriller? Or is there two movies called Red Sparrow?

Jay Kang: No, no, no. I think there’s two movies called Red Sparrow.

Aaron Lammer: Okay.

Jay Kang: This is like a Chinese film student who made it.

Aaron Lammer: Okay.

Jay Kang: It was very good and it might not be called Red Sparrow, so whatever. Like we’ll figure it out.

Aaron Lammer: Look as we’ve said, none of this is investment advice.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I got wrong how the blockchain was created. Jay has totally misidentified the film Red Sparrow, which I’m pretty sure-

Jay Kang: I think that’s Jennifer Lawrence in there, right?

Aaron Lammer: Is a Jennifer Lawrence action vehicle that was recently-

Jay Kang: It’s red something. All right. So-

Aaron Lammer: I was wondering how you’re gonna tie the Jennifer Lawrence vehicle Red Sparrow, into Chinese blockchain censorship and I was ready for some verbal fireworks.

Jay Kang: I looked it up. It’s Hooligan Sparrow.

Aaron Lammer: Hooligan Sparrow.

Jay Kang: Hooligan Sparrow.

Aaron Lammer: It’s a great title.

Jay Kang: It is a good title.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: It was a good documentary. It’s a very similar narrative in which a woman is trying to investigate something that has happened and she comes up against all sorts of resistance and censorship, so-

Aaron Lammer: Okay. Hooligan Sparrow is similar to this blockchain story.

Jay Kang: Yeah, to this blockchain. This young student at Peking University is trying to figure out what happened 20 years ago.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: All of her questions are rebuffed and that she feels somewhat at danger but she still writes an open letter to Peking University and she puts it on WeChat and it goes viral. Right? And she’s like, “Why are you not answering these questions?” A lot of the messaging apps in China start taking this letter down.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And so people in China to get around it, do things like … they’ll like embed the text in an image and then send that around so that it doesn’t quite match up with the image-

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: So that it stays there, but that starts getting taken down. Then someone has the idea to put it on the Ethereum blockchain and so at that point, it can’t be taken. And so the Yahoo article, which is somewhat non-committal about it because it’s not advocacy journal. It’s saying that like this is actually an interesting application of the blockchain. What do you think about this?

Aaron Lammer: I think my mind goes very quickly to the dark side when I think about this stuff. I actually just talked to … I was talking to Charlie Warzel, who we’ve had on this show and with all of the things that are happening to the big American tech companies, which themselves were originally identified with allowing for the kind of speech that we’re talking about. That there were forums where anyone, not just someone who had a magazine or a printing press or whatever could get their message out, could freely express themselves, and now a lot of those systems have been co-opted.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And so the blockchain does feel like a step forward along that progression, but I just immediately jumped inerasable tax. It’s like the force, there’s like the light in the light in the dark side of it. I can’t imagine that people were not gonna find some pretty like dark uses for the same thing.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Should I not let like the bad possibilities ruin the good possibilities for me?

Jay Kang: Like this is something in our world, right? Like … Not our world, because you refuse to acknowledge that you’re a journalist in any sort of way. But we’ve had a lot of controversies all the way up to Joy-Ann Reid right now, which if you don’t know she had a blog a while back and there’s a homophobic post. And she’s saying now that she didn’t make them and that some hack-

Aaron Lammer: She said she got like hacked or something?

Jay Kang: Yeah, that some hacker went back and time stamped it and inserted those blogs into her old blog.

Aaron Lammer: I’m gonna set an overall rule for humanity. If you got hacked and you’re gonna claim in the future that you hacked, you have like … It’s like the 30 second rule for food dropping on the floor, you gotta call out, “I got hacked.”

Jay Kang: Immediately.

Aaron Lammer: It’s like a bank shot. You can’t be like I called bank like three days later.

Jay Kang: Yeah. There’s no one who got hacked. Like my favorite example of this is the guy on Villanova in the national championship who hit all those shots. I forget his name, but like he was the MVP of the finals.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And he had all these problematic tweets from when he was 16 or 17 years old, which is understandable, 17 year olds say stupid shit.

Aaron Lammer: Absolutely.

Jay Kang: But Villanova immediately right at when they’re asked were like, “He was hacked.” And then you’re like he was not hacked. Unless some hacker went back four years ago and changed all of his tweets. It’s actually functionally impossible for him to be hacked and then they scrubbed the he was hacked line. But they tried to follow your rule of 30 seconds, but went the wrong way ’cause they just lied about it. But I tend to … I agree with you.

Aaron Lammer: Those things make no sense, ’cause it’s like you got hacked and then you got back control of your account, but you left the homophobic tweets that were like there from the hacking.

Jay Kang: Yeah. So the Joy-Ann Reid thing is interesting because it’s sort of both sides of it. Right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: If she had published all those on the blockchain, then no one could hack it because she would always have a record of what she had said at the time.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: And … But at the same time, it also shows how if you do say something in the past that can be misconstrued or excerpted or however and never disappears, that also can be bad. You know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I feel like you should be able to like discount some things you said when you were 16 or 17.

Jay Kang: Yeah. And I mean like there’s some people who because of that, myself included, who put on programs to delete all your tweets after a few days. There’s a great argument to be had and I … like I obviously am one side of it and some people would say well as a journalist, you should have all these things be public record forever. And I’m like I only tweet about the NBA. You know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: So I don’t think it’s really that big of a deal. But you know like it really is sort of scary to think that if you are 17 years old right now or 16 years old, and you’re in like a … the type of thing that young people do, which is try and say the most horrible thing to your friends-

Aaron Lammer: You’re 17, you’re publishing willy-nilly on the Ethereum blockchain. You don’t know where this could lead.

Jay Kang: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You and your friends are making like horrible racist and holocaust jokes to one another.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And then it’s there forever. Like it seems like you shouldn’t do those things, but I’m sorry. It’s just like a part of young behavior and if a system gets normalized in which everybody can see it and it is forever, that might be bad.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. I’m gonna play the other side here and say what this woman has done in China is not publish her entire life history to the Ethereum blockchain. She’s taken a particular document that was already subject to state censorship or unofficial state censorship and said, “This is important I want this to pursue this.”

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: Do you think that like having some sort of a more subjective to it that if we’re not saving everything, but we’re like very specifically saving somethings that could have a utility?

Jay Kang: Yes. And that’s where I feel like that … people should strive to go with this type of project.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: So we had Maria Bustillos sign it before with Popula and she said that they’re going to publish all their articles to the note section of the Ethereum blockchain and that it would be immutable.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And that nobody could take it down.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Now I would say that projects like that make sense to me and it is a take it or leave it type of thing. There’s no totality where every tweet that you and I put out or every text that I send to you needs to be on these blockchains. Right? Like it can be specific tool that’s used in these sorts of instances and I find it very hard anyone who had argued that it’s not good in these cases. Like if this China story is true, that’s great, they get … It’s a way to get around censorship, it’s a way raise awareness about what might have happened 20 years ago and it a way to get around like what is … People in China are very afraid right now because of what’s happening with Xi Jinping and the threat of a totalitarian government there, that is more oppressive than it is right now in terms of information. And if there already turning to the blockchain, I think that’s a plus.

Aaron Lammer: It’s interesting. Like I was like well okay, so what is the analog equivalent of this? Like what is the pre-digital equivalent, and I think it’s the book. The book is the immutable artifact. Yeah, like books have been lost to history, but you know that’s like … Outside of a 1984 type history, that’s what books are. If you publish a book, the contents of that book are generally written into history, particularly in the 20th century. Very hard to make a book totally disappear from the public consciousness and I think we’ve been able to navigate that pretty effectively. Like the fact that Mein Kampf still exists and has not been purged from the world, I think is a good thing.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I think it’s worthwhile to allow for a class of information that’s immutable.

Jay Kang: I agree with you and I think that it needs to be efficient in a way where people given the speed with which they need information now can access it. And I would say that of all the stories that I read week about Bitcoin, blockchain, this one was the most exciting to me because it seemed to be the type of thing A, that a lot of people can rally around. It’s not about like some sort of abstract idea and it’s not about money. It is really about something that I think a lot of people would agree is a good thing, which is to sort of fight censorship in countries like China.

Aaron Lammer: I guess if CHina’s able to censor internet sites and http requests, what stops them from just blocking the Ethereum blockchain from China wholesale to prevent this kinda stuff from being disseminated?

Jay Kang: Can they actually do that?

Aaron Lammer: I don’t know. That’s a really interesting question. Like how would someone go about blocking the blockchain?

Jay Kang: I don’t know. That’s a question for somebody else.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. We’ll have to ask someone that on the show.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I think that if this becomes prevalent enough, this will become an issue, like … And all of the things that we think about, decentralized applications and blockchain becoming a new form of internet like-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Or a replacement for the internet. There was a time when the internet itself was uncensorable.

Jay Kang: Exactly.

Aaron Lammer: Until people figured out how to censor it.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. I know and that’s … But that’s what is the most exciting part about this for me. I remember what I was excited about-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Which is that it … Like in terms of the new internet right?

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: Which is a phrase that’s thrown out all the time and it sounds ridiculous.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: But this is really the first thing where I was like oh, maybe it really is the new internet in some sort of way, because AWS can’t shut this down. You know? A lot of people already have this in a way where it can’t be taken off. I guess it could be taken off if more than 50% of the people decide … made some sort of decision or something like that, but that’s certainly not gonna happen. And it seems like a different way to sort of store information in an era in which we have highly centralized powers that do control the internet and do control information. It’s just a different path and it’ll get more efficient, it’ll get more elegant, it’ll be easier to access and then at that point, I feel like you might have an actual new internet.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I mean we’ve made jokes on the show about like trying to store information in the notes field of Ethereum blockchain that’s like real user friendly. But there’s no reason someone can’t build user friendly interfaces for some of the stuff and really create a new internet that does allow you to navigate some of these decentralized spaces effectively. We’re just in an incredibly nascent stage right now.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Like do you … I mean … And you and I are about the same age and about the same level of nerdiness, but like do you remember how hard it was to play MUDs back in the day?

Aaron Lammer: Oh, my God.

Jay Kang: Did you ever play MUDs?

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: It was horrible. You had to like … You had to-

Aaron Lammer: Did you used to call bulletin board services when you were younger?

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. Of course. You had to like … We had to like cue up our modems.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: We had to memorize these lines of texts and then this complete … I don’t think I could decipher it right now. And these like completely decipherable … indecipherable like lines of texts would come up and then you’d train your brain to figure it out. Like that was not that long ago. Like that was probably what? Like when you and I were like 15 or 16 years old, so it was like 22 years ago.

Aaron Lammer: I feel like that was more of like when we were like 12 maybe.

Jay Kang: Well I’m a couple years older than you.

Aaron Lammer: You’re a couple years ahead of me, yeah. And I remember how much you had to learn about the systems you were using before you could anything on them.

Jay Kang: Yeah. You had to learn like why the modem works.

Aaron Lammer: The MS-DOS prompts, you know? Like just to play a game, you kinda had to know like-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: The entire DOS language and I think that was valuable and I think that … Something that is exciting to me about decentralized crypto projects is they’re not that easy and if people do get involved in them, teenagers, 12 year olds or whatever, they’re gonna know way more than you and I do. And while they’re learning how to use them, they are gonna be creating the future of them in the way that like we learned how to use the internet, and that became the internet. The kinds of things we were learning about on bulletin boards and AOL chatrooms, that influenced what Twitter and Facebook became.

Jay Kang: This is exactly the type of thing that fueled the original internet. It’s not like a mainstream thing like a DApp that allows you to have Facebook decentralized.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: It is a specific concern that excites a lot of people because it seems to be solving a problem that everyone is dealing with.

Aaron Lammer: Speaking of the early internet, one of the things I was curious to get your take on was a lot of stuff has come out in the last couple of weeks about this consortium of venture capitalists, who have been creating a working group and trying to lobby for a safe harbor exemption for certain tokens to not be treated as securities. And basically not be subject to these same regulations that securities are generally subject to and it’s an interesting like echo of that internet. Because I think the guiding ethos at least from Silicon Valley and venture capitalists have been like, “Don’t regulate. Let us figure it out. You’re gonna kill whatever innovation or potential billion dollar, trillion industry by over regulating it. We know best. Let us do it.” And so it makes sense to me that now that crypto’s becoming a big part of what investors are interested in, they would feel the same way about avoiding regulations for crypto. This is a strange time to be making that argument though with Mark Zuckerberg testifying before congress and the biggest products of that Silicon Valley era finally facing some regulatory scrutiny.

Jay Kang: And like a breaking point with the public.

Aaron Lammer: And a break in a public trust.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Yeah. It is a hard time for them to be making this argument right now.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. A year ago would’ve been a better time for the safe harbor act I feel like.

Jay Kang: Tell me a little bit about it because like I’m not quite clear on it, but it’s … They see an inevitability, right? They think that the SCC is gonna be heavy handed and call all these things securities.

Aaron Lammer: I don’t know about all of them, but a lot of them.

Jay Kang: But a lot of them, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Particularly ICOs. So a worst case scenario and there’s an interview in the New York Times with … I think it was Neil Genzlinger-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Who was formerly the CFTC, where he was like, “I’ll just name two.” Two things that look a lot like securities to me are Ripple and Ethereum and if Ethereum’s a security, all of the ICOs that have been done on top of Ethereum are potentially securities also. That would be a major, major shift that would sort of end the ICO market. It would end a lot of the functionality of Ethereum.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but why? Why would it end the-

Aaron Lammer: Well it would mean that only certain types of investors would be able to invest.

Jay Kang: You would have to be an accredited investor. So you’d either have to have over a million dollars in net worth or $200,000.00 a year or something like that. Right? Like isn’t that worth it?

Aaron Lammer: I think … I don’t know that that’s the exact like-

Jay Kang: It’s somewhere around there.

Aaron Lammer: Something around there.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: And additionally, there is a huge amount of work involved in complying with being a security that none of these companies have been doing, none of them want to do and might severely limit their potential.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: When we’ve talked about the Bitcoin apocalypse scenario, this is a little bit of the ICO Ethereum apocalypse scenario. I don’t think it’s likely, but I think when you’re like, “How would Ethereum just go down in like a giant Hindenburg crash?” This is one way it could.

Jay Kang: I don’t understand how they are going to have that much traction honestly. It seems like the SEC is going to do what the SEC wants to do. I read a bit about this. I don’t find the arguments that Ethereum is not a security, but other things are securities. I just don’t find that particularly convincing.

Aaron Lammer: Well there’s two good articles I’d recommend. For the Ethereum is not a security argument, check out our former guest, the Coin Center’s Peter Van Valkenburgh. He wrote about that and I think Preston Byrne had something pretty good that took the other side of that issue. And I think the like central sticking point … There’s something called the Howey Test, that’s supposedly how you test if something-

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Is a security or not. And I think the biggest variable in how we would evaluate something like Ethereum is its decentralized nature. If you believe that Ethereum is a totally decentralized application that’s not owned or controlled by anyone, then it’s probably not a security.

Jay Kang: [crosstalk 00:25:32] why? Why?

Aaron Lammer: For something to be a security, I believe it has to be issued by someone.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And a decentralized … Like Bitcoin was not issued by anyone. Bitcoin is mined but no one’s ever issued someone a Bitcoin token. So what it comes down to for Ethereum I think, if I read this correctly, it comes down to this Ethereum presale. Is that the Ethereum Foundation distributing Ethereum or is that a totally decentralized event like the genesis block of Bitcoin? One of the arguments that Van Valkenburgh is making, which I think is kind of interesting is that Ethereum had two periods, it had the presale period and the current period. And he draws a bunch of distinctions between like in the presale period, the records were kept in a centralized database for the Ethereum foundation. In the post presale period, they’re now held in a decentralized blockchain. So I think he’s basically saying that like yes, the original sale would’ve been a security, but it’s become something different now and that’s not a security.

Jay Kang: Wow. He’s like using the Shaggy defense.

Aaron Lammer: What? It wasn’t me?

Jay Kang: It wasn’t me. He’s saying that the thing that issued the token and kept records in a centralized place and had an entire foundation, like that’s not actually Ethereum anymore. All … That is another thing that just had the same name and at this point, what is Ethereum has sort of … Not even that it’s different, but that it has sort of had this metaphysical and full body change and now it is something different. Like it is … It’s morphed. It’s now a different thing.

Aaron Lammer: I kind of buy it. I mean in so far as something can start off centralized and become decentralized. It’s not the same thing forever. This centrally comes down to like, does Ethereum require any central authority to continue? If the Ethereum Foundation ends, will Ethereum end?

Jay Kang: Probably.

Aaron Lammer: But not necessarily. Like what’s stopping it from … I mean the GitHub page will get real quiet, but maybe there won’t be future development on it. But I think it would continue to work and be used.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Well here’s … I read Preston Byrne’s response. I enjoy his writing even when I disagree with it because I think he makes points very clearly. One of the things he said was that the Howey works, the way that U.S. security law works is that you kinda have to get under the hood and figure out what is actually going on. Right? So you can’t take a 10,000 foot bird’s eye view and look down on and say, “Well that kinda looks like a security and that doesn’t really look like a security.” And so in that sense, I would say that we don’t really know, ’cause we don’t know how decentralized Ethereum is right now. We don’t know who holds a ton of Ethereum. We don’t know how influence really works. Right?

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: Like we have a general sense. We know what Vitalik says, we know what Peter Van Valkenburgh says, but we ultimately don’t know.

Aaron Lammer: We know that it’s more decentralized than it was because people are mining it and more people are holding it. But we don’t know how decentralized it is.

Jay Kang: Yes. And I would say that … And I think that this is what Preston Byrne is arguing in some ways as well, which is that even if it has become more decentralized, you cannot say that it has had a full body conversion and that it is now something completely different. That they did have a presale-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: A lot of those tokens did go to small numbers of people. Right?

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: A lot of those people are now very wealthy and very invested in the future of Ethereum.

Aaron Lammer: And a lot of those people have ties to the Ethereum foundation.

Jay Kang: Exactly. So if you’re trying to say that there’s no longer a central force that’s very powerful and there’s no sort of centralized group that benefits from Ethereum going up or down or the future of Ethereum or people investing more in Ethereum, I think that that probably fails. And at that point, yeah, I do … I would argue that I think that if the Securities Commission was to say that Ethereum is not a security right, then I think that it would be very hard for them to argue that anything is a security.

Aaron Lammer: I kind of agree with you and all the arguments we’ve just made about Ethereum are like times seven if you take Ripple.

Jay Kang: Maybe times a 100 seriously.

Aaron Lammer: Times a 100.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. Like there’s good arguments on both sides with Ethereum. I’d say there’s not very many good arguments that Ripple’s not a security. In my mind, it seems to be very heavily controlled by a central corporation-

Jay Kang: Is Ripple even trying … Is Ripple part of this exemption?

Aaron Lammer: Well one thing that they do have going for them is they’ve got Snoop Dogg playing at their census of that. So that actually gets you a special exemption.

Jay Kang: I feel like that’s proof of centralization. Like Snoop Dogg only really plays at things that are like centralized, corporate events now. The last thing I’ll say about this is that … Or the last question I’ll ask you is, do you think that the argument for that this thing is completely decentralized and that therefore should not be treated as a security … Do you think that that argument is hampered by the fact that they have Vitalik Buterin as a center piece of all this?

Aaron Lammer: I do. I think the most notable difference between Bitcoin Core and the Ethereum Foundation is the lack of a figurehead in Bitcoin and I think that’s a very smart decision by whoever Satoshi Nakamoto is. And I think it puts it in this realm where you can truly say the person who made this is anonymous. This could continue for hundreds of years without intervention and this is not the product of a company or a corporation or some issuance. Do you think that if Ethereum had it over again, they would not do the presale?

Jay Kang: Oh, yeah. Well ’cause I mean if they knew that they were gonna be this successful-

Aaron Lammer: Right.

Jay Kang: Like they certainly wouldn’t have. I don’t think so.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. It kinda reminds me of how like before Vitalik started Ethereum, he was like involved in like some kinda scammy stuff supposedly. And it’s like I’m sure he wishes he hadn’t been involved in that before he was involved in Ethereum. You get involved in some more questionable stuff when you’re starting off, you really need the money for your-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: To get your idea off the ground. What if Ethereum had just been a truly mineable project from day one? There was never any presale, then again maybe they would’ve never gotten here then.

Jay Kang: No, and I don’t think they would have. It’s the same thing with Vitalik, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Like if you don’t have Vitalik as the talking head who goes on YouTube or whatever and talks about this thing. If you don’t have the belief in the central figure that you write magazine profiles of, who is quite identifiably a genius-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: You know like … I don’t think it gets off the ground at all. So you have a double edged sword here and I think that at some point, they’re probably just gonna have to be like, “Look, we can make all these arguments we want. But at some point, the SEC’s gonna come and look under the hood and they’re gonna also use sort of a smell test and we probably will fail that.”

Aaron Lammer: Right.

Jay Kang: Speaking of centralization and securities and all these things. It’s been a while since we’ve done this, but I think that we should talk about a specific coin.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I think so too, especially with … There was a fake out alt season this week. Alt season kicked in hard and then like immediately like pulled brakes and jumped back, but I was certainly like scanning my list and being like, “What is that again?”

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: And I think there’s also actually an interesting conversation to be had about … We were just discussing Vitalik as the central figure in Ethereum, Coinbase has Brian Armstrong as their central figure, and I think the coin I wanna talk about is Zero-X. That’s what it’s called, right?

Jay Kang: Yeah. Zero-X. Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. Yeah, it’s ZRX. And one of the reasons that ZRX has been like at the top of my block folio watch list is a lot of rumors that Coinbase is gonna add ZRX next.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. So let’s just be very clear.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: The only reason why we are talking about Zero-X and the only reason why it has been so in the news a lot and the reason why its profile has sort of gone up from only being on Binance and a thing I owned a shit load of at some point.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And then exited-

Aaron Lammer: I didn’t have … I’ve never made any Zero-X ’cause I don’t have a Binance account. It’s not … I don’t think it’s on Bittrex or it wasn’t.

Jay Kang: Man, I … I mean as you know ’cause we talked about this a lot, I had a lot of it and exited at an okay time before the crash. But that has not … But my investment in it has absolutely nothing to do with-

Aaron Lammer: Absolutely nothing to do with it.

Jay Kang: Me believing in it. It was just ’cause like some guy we know told me to.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: But it … I did do some research into it but now it is back. Right?

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: It is … I would say … I don’t think that it’s even controversial, but I’ll say it is the most discussed alt coin in terms of people who are speculating. I mean I get texts about it from my friends more than any other coin and it is all because of this rumor out there that is going to be added to Coinbase. So I think that we should look at least in some of its properties in the context of it being added Coinbase. Like if this is true, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Why this coin?

Aaron Lammer: Okay. Well let’s look back at the history. So Coinbase announced that they would be starting to support ERC-20 tokens, Ethereum tokens. Not totally clear whether that means just custodial, you can store your ERC-20 tokens here or you’ll eventually be able to trade your ERC-20 tokens. Either way, great day for the ERC-20-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Community and market cap. And instantly you have to go, “Well which ones?”

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: You know like what’s the first one?

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: ’Cause that like … Everything we’ve seen about the psychology of … Nubes says like anything near Coinbase or GDAX is gonna get like a lot of attention right out of the gate. And the three coins that I’ve heard rumors about are Basic Attention Token (BAT), Augur (Rep) and Zero-X (ZRX), and all three of those rumors so far as I know originate from Brian Armstrong’s Twitter account. So I think someone tweeted Zero-X has done more for Ethereum than all of the ICOs combined.

Jay Kang: How?

Aaron Lammer: It was not my tweet.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: And then he like very quickly like un-retweeted it. So that’s basic … Like the entire-

Jay Kang: That’s where that rumor came from?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. This entire segment-

Jay Kang: He could’ve fad fingered it.

Aaron Lammer: This entire thing is from that. But he could’ve fad fingered, but it makes sense also-

Jay Kang: Yes. It makes sense.

Aaron Lammer: Which is why it’s a good rumor. So right off the bat, did you … We both independently did a little Zero-X research.

Jay Kang: Yeah. And I think to give some context-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: We have to give some context about Brian Armstrong who we’ve talked about quite a bit on this show.

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: Which is that from what we know about him because … and from the small things in which he’s public about, for example his Toshi app-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: Which he put out, which you and I have discussed at length. Brian Armstrong is an Ethereum Maximalist.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: Like he believes that the future of Silicon Valley in some way will be routed through Ethereum technology-

Aaron Lammer: Future of Silicon Valley? The future of humanity.

Jay Kang: Future of humanity. The future of like basically the complex systems and-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: The ecosystems in which human beings relate to one another, like trade money and built societies will be based Ethereum.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Like I don’t think that’s a stretch to say.

Aaron Lammer: Yes. And the system he imagines that is referred to as DApps, which are interlocking applications and tokens that power all sorts of peer to peer marketplaces and charity and rote labor.

Jay Kang: He has a full vision of it.

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: World is on the Ethereum blockchain and so it would make sense that in his company, that the things that he would want to promote would be things that help along that economy. And all three of those things right, Augur, which is a prediction market.

Aaron Lammer: Basic Attention Token, which is how you get paid out by the Brave browser for your browsings-

Jay Kang: Yeah, and-

Aaron Lammer: For content creators.

Jay Kang: And Zero-X, which is a platform in which you can generate other types of platforms. It’s sort of like a platform upon which to build other platforms, and to also build DApps.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: All three of those help Brian Armstrong’s world and so they’re all consistent with this-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Vision that we’re [crosstalk 00:38:07].

Aaron Lammer: They’re all very different takes on like what an Eth Maximalist worldview could be. In some ways Zero-X is the most neutral take ’cause it’s like Ethereum on top of Ethereum.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: But the other two are like … are practical, real world applications of what could be the first viable DApp for mass consumption.

Jay Kang: Okay. So with Zero-X, what does it actually do?

Aaron Lammer: First thing I noticed when I started looking into it, Zero-X does not have a Wikipedia page.

Jay Kang: That’s very suspicious.

Aaron Lammer: To me, this is like a big thing that’s happening in the world, but not even meriting … I could be totally wrong.

Jay Kang: I mean I have a Wikipedia page.

Aaron Lammer: It’s gonna be really embarrassing when people all send me the Zero-X Wikipedia page. But it speaks to the circularity and repetition of information online about this stuff, where I like … First I googled Zero-X and I was like huh, no Wikipedia page. That’s weird. And then I was like why do people think Coinbase is adding ZRX and it was just a Reddit thread about that Brian Armstrong tweet. And most of the information about why people think it’s gonna be on Coinbase or either from that tweet or people being like, “Many people are talking about this.”

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: Not a ton of information out there and in terms of considering how Zero-X actually works, it’s an open permissionless protocol allowing for ERC-20s to be traded on the Ethereum blockchain. And the research I did would put a bold on the word frictionless.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: A big part of the promise of Zero-X is that these DApps are gonna be able to be moving all kinds of ERC-20 tokens and making all kinds of smart contracts and none of it is gonna cost or burn anything. It will be a perpetual motion machine of DApps controlling your whole life.

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: If were to ask me, “Well why do you need that on top of Ethereum to power these DApps?” It seems like the upside of ZRX is that it does some of these things that Ethereum does, but without any friction, without burning anything along the way.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Well it does it by exporting a lot of the stuff that does not need to be on the blockchain-

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: Out of the blockchain. And so it uses less gas, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Like so it uses less space. It requires less energy-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: If you use it. So it is essentially just like an engine in which all of this can run at much, much more efficient pace.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. And I feel like as non like technical Eth developers, we can’t really gauge how important that is or how valuable that would be. When I look at it compared to BAT and Rep, I’m like of these three things, two of them people can wrap their head around how they work-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: And use them, and one of them is kind of like bringing more Ethereum to the Ethereum party.

Jay Kang: And you need a second level of knowledge to understand why-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: It’s necessary. Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: So to me, it seems less likely that it would get added Coinbase except as infrastructure to add more stuff to Coinbase in the future. One thing I don’t totally get about ZRX is like when you build projects on top of the Ethereum blockchain, they use ERC-20 tokens. Like are tokens things that use ZRX? Like ZRX-20 tokens?

Jay Kang: No, but-

Aaron Lammer: Or are they just a subset of ERC-20 tokens?

Jay Kang: No, no. I mean you can print your own but this again is the endless dilemma about these tokens and these ERC projects that … ERC projects that print their own tokens, which is just like … It’s hard to find a use case for these tokens except for using to buy … like the ability … to use it to pay to use the service. And at that point, you’re just like, “Well why don’t I just give you Ethereum? Why don’t I just give you Bitcoin? Why don’t I just give you my credit card number?”

Aaron Lammer: Well there are … We’ve thought of two pretty good use cases, which are Basic Attention Token and Augur-

Jay Kang: No, no, no, no. I’m not talking about those. I’m talking about Zero-X.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. But I’m saying that if we can think of these use cases for Ethereum, we can think of use cases for an even more efficient and frictionless blend-

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: Of Ethereum. And it makes sense to me that there would be like additional layers. if we’re gonna create a piping system to run the entire economy through smart contracts, it’s gonna take more than like vanilla Ethereum to do so. But the other thing that really caught my eye when I was going through it is this is a real Silicon Valley project. Like if you look at the people who are working on it-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: It’s people who are ex-Google, ex-Apple. It has a real startup flavor that’s very identifiable.

Jay Kang: What we do know is that … Again, we are way in Brian Armstrong’s head.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: But like … And it might not be true. The two things that these things have in common is A, what we already talked about, that they are sort of helpers of the Ethereum world that he wants to build. And secondly, they are people who most likely live down the street from him or work down the street from him and that they have been rubber stamped by places that they used to work, the places where they studied computer science. It is not a shady project with a shady team. It is people who have their photos on the website, it is people who you can look up everything that they’ve done in the past. And just from looking at that, diving a little bit into what they have done, you can have a reasonable trust that these people are probably working on something real and they’re not just like sort of sitting around in a room and like looking at a Binance chart and be like, “All right. We’re a little bit richer. Let’s go home.” And I think that’s very, very-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Important for whatever is next on Coinbase. Because with the amount of scrutiny that is around Coinbase and around the crypto world in general, it would be catastrophic for Coinbase I think to link up with something that was a little bit shadier. And not even shadier, ’cause it could be that … like something like Waves that’s in Russia, it’s just as legitimate. But it’s harder for us to verify from here.

Aaron Lammer: I’m pretty sure Waves is not as legitimate. Well I’m comfortable going down that one [crosstalk 00:44:06]-

Jay Kang: You would not say that if Doug Kim and the Waves hall of fame was on the podcast right now.

Aaron Lammer: Well here’s why, ’cause Waves is like housed in a country controlled by Vladimir Putin. I do think that there is a national character to these projects and especially if you’re issuing tokens on top of the project. I would not issue a token that was on a Russian blockchain right now.

Jay Kang: And it is much easier SEC-

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: For example to sort of investigate Zero-X and say, “Okay.”-

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: “If you’re gonna be part of this, then this exchange is not dealing with something that might be fraudulent.”

Aaron Lammer: And I do think like it’s strategically makes sense for Brian Armstrong and Coinbase to take their company this direction because if you win, it’s a bigger win. It’s like a bigger pot. If smart contracts take over the world, I think that is more profound than simply taking over money, which is Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: It’s also a bigger risk and a bigger gamble. Why I think that Bitcoin has been validated as something that people want and wanna use, ERC-20 tokens have not really been totally validated under that hypothesis. But this is how a Silicon Valley mindset operates. It’s always make the bigger bet. Do not take the 10 X-

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Go for the a 1,000 X. It doesn’t matter if you’re risking the 10 X and it’s just-

Jay Kang: This is Brian Armstrong’s do you know what’s cooler than a million dollars moment?

Aaron Lammer: Pretty much … I mean like I think he’s … I don’t think it’s … I think that moment was like two years ago for him.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I think you look at Bitcoin, you almost have like two strands in the family tree of crypto, which is this one strand that starts with the dark web, and starts with people who wanna do semi-anonymous, shady online transactions and that accidentally create an entire decentralized … Not accidentally, intentionally create an entire decentralized currency around it. And then there’s this other strand of people who want smart contracts to power everything about your life and everything about your banking and identity, and everything else. And I almost don’t … Like I don’t see those two paths ever crossing over each other again. The only war they’re really at with each other is for market share. Right? Do you feel like the Bitcoin and Ethereum world views even really matter much to each other at this point?

Jay Kang: No, actually … You know that’s good ’cause that’s actually the last thing I wanna talk about on this topic, which is that from a zoomed out perspective-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: It really does seem like they’ve been more divergent in the past few weeks or … past few months. You know that you do have stories about Ethereum that do seem to be closer to being able to articulate a world in which Ethereum is a big deal and that it replaces a lot of the functions in which we use on our phone or on the internet.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And that it affects large portions of our life and that they seem to not really even be interested in talking about Bitcoin-

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: And whereas Bitcoin seems to be sort of going another path, which is actually somewhat closer to the origins of Bitcoin right, which is we are looking at a world in which a deflationary currency is a good idea, and that’s what we’re concerned about. So like nobody in the Bitcoin community is saying like let’s build Bitcoin apps. Like BApps and figure out ways in which we can like create a better version of Twitter or something like that. And I don’t if it’s for any other reason than I feel like the people who are behind Ethereum projects have recently been able to articulate their ideas a little bit better.

Aaron Lammer: And that makes sense. Like it makes sense that the V1 is different from the V3 and that people have to experiment and pivot. I think we make fun of some of the ideals of Silicon Valley. But these are people who are experienced at building giant ideas that seem silly at first.

Jay Kang: Or might be horrible for the world.

Aaron Lammer: Or might destroy the world. It seems like Bitcoin is more comfortable with Bitcoin being the whole idea. I don’t think Bitcoin necessarily needs to like change what it’s doing a lot in the next few years in order to validate its importance and its hypothesis. And I think that’s like made me a bit more of a Bitcoin Maximalist recently. It’s just like I get what I’m support … When I support Bitcoin, I think I’ve wrapped my head around at least like 50% of it. I don’t really understand a lot of this Ethereum world stuff and maybe Brian Armstrong understands it better than I do and he’s seeing a future that I can’t see.

Jay Kang: He probably does.

Aaron Lammer: He probably does but-

Jay Kang: But his extrapolation … or his conclusions might be worse.

Aaron Lammer: Well they need … I do think that those people need to get better at articulating the world that they’re imagining. It can’t simply be like more, more, more tokens, more … like more Ethereum, more everything. Like has to be like a pause where we start actually showing people like what to do with this stuff.

Jay Kang: But what if they’re in the MUD phase right now? Which I think that’s what they would argue. Right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Like what we talked about earlier in the podcast. Like it’s very hard to articulate and extrapolate out of what we have right now, what it’s going to be, but that clearly it’s going to be something.

Aaron Lammer: I agree with that. I think we are in that MUD phase. It’s weird to talk about the joint like Ethereum, Bitcoin market cap as a result of that, ’cause I don’t understand why if Ethereum moves past its MUD phase, that’s a bad thing for Bitcoin, or Bitcoin should be like, “Oh, we’re in decline.” In some ways I always think that Bitcoin will be the gateway drug to all of this stuff ’cause it’s like much easier to understand at the gateway at least, like what you’re doing. And I expect that over time like if Ethereum is right, if the Ethereum world is right, then over time it will become bigger than Bitcoin. I think.

Jay Kang: Yeah. No, I totally agree with that and it does seem in the last six months at least or three months even, that there has been more diversions than there was in the past year and a half if that makes sense.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Like the two were always compared to one another. The question you and I always get is, “Hey. Like should I buy Bitcoin or should I buy Ethereum?” And I think what Ethereum wants …

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: And maybe what Bitcoin wants as well, but what the people who are backing Ethereum really want is for that question to end.

Aaron Lammer: Yep.

Jay Kang: Like they don’t wanna be involved with Bitcoin at all.

Aaron Lammer: And I think that it’s proper to think of Ethereum and Zero-X more in terms of startups. I think that they’re like startups that have a certain amount of runway and they have to make a strong case during that runway, that people should invest more in them and that their vision is gonna take over the world, or it’s gonna like fall apart. Whereas Bitcoin, I think the vision has already been executed and we can start thinking about Bitcoin as a store of value, as something that has like a long term place to park money and wealth. And if Bitcoin is basically exactly the same thing, but a little bit more efficient and has figured out some lightning network stuff in the next couple of years, I don’t feel like Bitcoin will be like behind as a result. I think Bitcoin is in somewhat of a more stable position despite the price not being stable ’cause the idea is stable.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Sure. I mean I still don’t wanna live in Brian Armstrong’s world.

Aaron Lammer: You wouldn’t wanna live in anyone’s world.

Jay Kang: I mean I’m okay living in this current world. Cool. Is there anything else you wanna talk about?

Aaron Lammer: Oh, yeah. I got something for you. You’ll see here this lovely book here. I’ve purchased The Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean Ammous.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Do you know how to say his name?

Jay Kang: Famous eater of only meat. I think he’s a carnivore.

Aaron Lammer: Carnivore. I’m gonna start this book. I was wondering if you would like to read it alongside me and we could start a little podcast book club.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. Let’s do it. I mean look, I … The books that I tend to read these days are really not gonna be that much better.

Aaron Lammer: I mean I’ve heard this book getting a lot of praise. So if you’re interested, let’s say we’ll do it in quarters.

Jay Kang: Yep.

Aaron Lammer: So we’ll do it over four weeks. We won’t start this week ’cause we’ll give you time to go buy the book.

Jay Kang: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do I have to buy it with Bitcoin?

Aaron Lammer: No. I’ll … Yeah, you can get the Kindle one. I’ll tell you, the printing is very cheap. So I don’t even know if I totally endorse getting the print copy, but pick it up in the Kindle. It’s only a few bucks, read alongside us. We’ll announce next show what the page numbers we’re gonna go up to are. I think it will be nice to … we’re like budding up against the limits of like how we can discuss this stuff based on a like 200 word CoinDesk article.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: And hopefully the book will provide a framework for us to get a little deeper and people who are reading along can send in questions. We’ll answer them. Maybe we’ll have a guest or two who’s read the book on. It’ll be fun.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: All right. Cool. See you next week.

Jay Kang: All right.

Speaker 2: This episode of Coin Talk was taped Wednesday, April 18th at 9 P.M. eastern standard time. The Bitcoin price index was $8,111.00.

Aaron Lammer: That was Coin Talk, edited this week by James Nicholson. Thanks very much to my cohost Jay Kang. Thanks to our partners at Medium. You can find every episode of this show including transcripts at medium.com/cointalk. It’s kind of a fast way to get through the archives if you like to read this kind of thing. Also you can send us an email hi@cointalk.show. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next week.

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The real ZRX

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The official podcast of Bitcoin crashes. Hosted by @aaronlammer and @jaycaspiankang. Mailbag/contact: hi@cointalk.show

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