COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press “Listen to the story” above to play the episode. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)


Aaron Lammer: Okay, welcome to Coin Talk.

Jay Kang: Hello, hello.

Aaron Lammer: It’s a quarterly tradition, the bounce episode. Seeing a little light here. As you sourly pointed out, we’ve already done the return of FOMO Kang episode. What bounce was that even? I don’t remember.

Jay Kang: I think it was to 11,000, or something. The alt markets were … We had a alt Indian summer day.

Aaron Lammer: Oh, that’s right. Okay. I do believe that we’ve hit a real bottom. I believe it.

Jay Kang: Why do you believe that?

Aaron Lammer: I just irrationally believe it.

Jay Kang: You’re like, I’ve suffered enough, and therefore things must get better.

Aaron Lammer: It seemed like it took so long to get back up to here, to right now. We’re about 8200 while we’re taping. It feels real to me.

Jay Kang: Okay. What have we actually seen then. Because let’s try and take a rational long-term view of this. Not because I think I’m rational in long view, but just because I think this is something that people do.

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: We have gone from about a bottom of 5800, that was never really established. The real bottom was somewhere in between 6200, 6500. We pushed up almost to 9,000. Now we settled back down to about 8200. All of this happened in about, let’s say the last eight day or so, would you say?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. It happened in several legs. There was a run up to 7400. We didn’t really get that close to 9,000. I think it peaked out around 8500.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. None of this feels like the mania of the previous bull run, where people are FOMO buying it really fast. Each time it pauses. It’s a little more orderly. Also, unlike that period, I don’t really know what’s behind this. I don’t understand the root causes of this.

Jay Kang: What was your explanation for the last one?

Aaron Lammer: The last run up to 9,000?

Jay Kang: Yeah, the parabolic run to 19,000.

Aaron Lammer: The bull run. Mass mania.

Jay Kang: Mass mania spurred by the media and Coinbase.

Aaron Lammer: With some manipulation cooked in to turbocharge the engines.

Jay Kang: Okay. My question to you is now that we are about seven months out from that and when you and I both thought we were gonna be rich …

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, still gonna happen. None of this investment advice.

Jay Kang: … and all the revelations came out, what percentage of it do you think was organic mania, and wild speculation by people who were downloading Coinbase, and people in Asia? How much of it do you think was market manipulation by things like Tether?

Aaron Lammer: The more I’ve learned about both of those, the less I feel like you can see them as totally distinct from each other.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Rather than saying like, “Oh, it really got to 12,000, but the manipulators made it look like it was 19,000.” It never really was sitting at 19,000. The high, as I remember, were 16,000, 17,000. It seems more like the Tether probably kept it from falling a few times, when it would have fall, which kept the narrative going for the mania to continue.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I agree with it. It’s like somebody on steroids or something like that, and then trying to discern how many home runs they would have hit.

Aaron Lammer: It’s a great example.

Jay Kang: At some point the situation changes when you’ve hit a lot, and then you’re pitched to differently, et cetera, et cetera.

Aaron Lammer: Well, and you look at someone like Barry Bonds, and they’re like, “How much does juicing actually do it.”on average makes the ball go six feet further on every hit. You’re like, “That’s not very much.” Barry Bonds was cranking insane home runs. It’s like…

Jay Kang: Fucking really. Somebody from the Bay Area, by the way.

Aaron Lammer: I’m an A’s fan. I’m an A’s fan. But they were like, “Well look, 78 of his home runs that went over the fence wouldn’t have gone over without those extra six feet.” It’s just kind of like, at a certain point you have to be like, “I fold.”

Jay Kang: I hate that type of stuff.

Aaron Lammer: I do believe there’s a real mania, ’cause I saw it in people. I saw those Ethereum team in Korea. I saw, not in person. I wish I had seen them in person. I saw people in your office getting crazy crypto.

Aaron Lammer: But in some ways it felt like the perfect storm of everyone’s winning. The exchanges make money, the Tether people make money, the investors make money, and then my assumption is most of the money lost was the mania. On the way up, lots of people collaborated for the run, and then the mania retail investors took the entire fall.

Jay Kang: Okay, so I think that we can make a couple assumptions here about this price move. The first is I think that we can assume that whatever percentage it was, that was market manipulation, it’s probably a little bit less now. I have no real reason why I think that, except that I think that there are only so many scams that you can do to make a market as big as the Bitcoin market move that much, and that …

Aaron Lammer: There’s also more markets now. It spread over more exchanges.

Jay Kang: It’s become diversified a bit, and I think a lot of the people also who did it the first time probably cashed out very, very, very well. But …

Aaron Lammer: They got so rich that it wasn’t worth it anymore.

Jay Kang: It’s not. But this is behaving a little bit differently. This does seem like we are going up three steps and dropping two, then going up three steps and dropping two, type of thing, which does a little bit more sense. Does that mean, at this point, that you feel like the chances of another catastrophic crash are less? Or do you feel like that probably is still gonna happen?

Aaron Lammer: I think it’s been lowered a bit. One of the ways I was thinking about it was, during the last bull run, it seemed like no one was selling. Even when it was at 15,000, every part of a rational investor should be like, “You just doubled your money. Sell.”

Jay Kang: I seem to believe you ridiculing me constantly over selling any type of gain.

Aaron Lammer: I think that the HODL philosophy was strong there. Then again, it still is strong, but I think more people are in the game who already experience that bull run, and therefore when they see a $9,000, a $10,000, a $12,000 Bitcoin, are gonna maybe sell a little bit of that bag.

Jay Kang: Even though the mania has gone there, more different types of people who are placing a lot of different types of bets on Bitcoin either way, and that might also have a stabilizing influence on it because before it was literally just, this is the future, buy in now or be left behind. Whereas now, I think there are probably smart people who are aware of crypto, who are betting on crypto in different types of ways, which might help stabilize price ’cause they might be shorting it in some sort of way, or they might be placing downward pressure on the market.

Aaron Lammer: For all of the negative things you could think about Bitcoin, less than half of its all-time high right now, its market dominance is up, its fundamentals, like whatever fundamentals people were buying on during the last bull run, are just as strong now if they ever existed. It’s like a good picture. It seems like it’s in a good place.

Jay Kang: I agree with that except in one sense, which is that I think that Bitcoin still has this religious aspect to it, and that it needs true believers to go full maximalist. Otherwise, what are you really buying? You’re sort of buying a currency that it behaves in some ways like a security, like buying gold or something like that. The amount of people who feel like if they can’t get 10X rich off of it, then it might be worth doing something else. You still need that kind of dream, that somebody is going to get 1,000% returns on it. I do think that dream has been severely damaged.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I think so. Look the more this stuff is spread out amongst institutional investors and all different kinds of people with all different kinds of money in, if you’re still thinking you’re gonna get 1,000X returns, you’d be buying ICOs and shit coins now, I think. I think buying Bitcoin at this juncture is probably closer to buying an extremely aggressive risk portfolio of stocks.

Jay Kang: Okay, so I have a question for you then. When we were doing well in crypto back in December …

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, when were geniuses. Back during our genius days.

Jay Kang: Yeah, when we were putting down reservations on cars.

Aaron Lammer: Back when this was investment advice …

Jay Kang: Yeah, exactly. What was the realistic expectation for the price of crypto by the end of 2019, for you? Did you think it was … Or I’m sorry, 2018.

Aaron Lammer: End of 2019?

Jay Kang: Do you think it would have hit 50,000, at least once?

Aaron Lammer: In the pie in the sky dream?

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: This is basically like, alternate reality …

Jay Kang: We’re back in December of 2017.

Aaron Lammer: … where it does drop, but let’s say the brakes get pulled at 12,000, and then it just bounces right back up to 16,000, 17,000. We’re hovering at the all-time high, and it’s January of 2018. What’s my prognosis for the next year? Yeah I think the pie in the sky is probably like that it gets up to 40.

Jay Kang: 40?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s probably where I would have pegged it.

Jay Kang: I would have agreed with you. What do you think now?

Aaron Lammer: In the pie in the sky version?

Jay Kang: Yeah for 2018. What’s the highest Bitcoin will get?

Aaron Lammer: Well how many months do we have?

Jay Kang: We have five months left.

Aaron Lammer: Five months. I think the pie in the sky is 20,000.

Jay Kang: Really?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: You see a scenario of 20,000?

Aaron Lammer: I do.

Jay Kang: Why are you not buying a ton of Bitcoin?

Aaron Lammer: I already own it. No, I haven’t bought it. I basically have the same Bitcoin that I rode up and rode down.

Jay Kang: You see scenario for 20,000.

Aaron Lammer: It’s the pie in the sky. In the scenario where we were at 16,000 and I saw 40,000, right now we’re at 8400. Yeah, I could see 20,000. That’s like Bitcoin going 2.5X.

Jay Kang: My prognosis, pie in the sky is 11,000.

Aaron Lammer: That’s your pie in the sky?

Jay Kang: I think that’s the highest I could possibly see it going this year.

Aaron Lammer: To me, the moderate even view be 10,000. I think everyone would feel like, if it ends the year at 10,000 it’s an optimistic view.

Jay Kang: We’re okay.

Aaron Lammer: Over $10,000. To me, the pie in the sky would be and then it doubles.

Aaron Lammer: What are the causes for it coming back here? Other than the pure dumb psychology elements, which I do believe it takes people a certain amount of time to forget about that crash, who are just like, “Eh, wasn’t so bad when I was gambling on Bitcoin. We had some good times.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. That’s basically me six days after every Vegas trip. The first five days are despair.

Jay Kang: There are two things in the news. The first is the Bitcoin ETF is back in the news. For those who don’t know, there are Bitcoin ETFs that exist, but they’re terrible in terms of the amount that they take off the top.

Aaron Lammer: I think they’re also not real legit, full fledged ETFs. You can’t buy your Roth IRA, you can’t put it into that. They’re second world.

Jay Kang: This would be essentially the same as buying an S&P tracker, something like that, or Vanguard, and that it would be built around cryptocurrencies or just bitcoin itself, and that some financial institution would be tasked with making sure that this is legitimate. To get that, they’d need SEC approval. The news was that this might actually happen. By the end of 2018 or the beginning of 2019, which means that large institutional invest …

Jay Kang: I read an article where the person quotes was a guy from Shark Tank, Mr. Wonderful. I was like, “You couldn’t think of anyone better to ask than the TV guy. Come on.” But what Mr. Wonderful said is that this is a good sign for crypto, even though he doesn’t like crypto, personally.

Aaron Lammer: Well how can it be a bad sign?

Jay Kang: Well, he just said this is actually the moment when institutional investors will get into crypto.

Jay Kang: Now we don’t have to rely on Mr. Wonderful’s word. We can just think for ourselves and say, of course this is a time when … If, for example, you or I are 10 years in the future with some retirement savings, hopefully, we’re to tell our money manager, again that’s a optimistic scenario that we would have one, to say, “Hey, let’s get a little more aggressive.” They could actually put some of our retirement funds into the crypto space.

Aaron Lammer: I don’t think it’s saying 10 years down the line. I think it’s saying this year.

Jay Kang: No, I’m just talking about when you and I will have enough money to warrant a retirement account.

Aaron Lammer: But one thing to think about there is this year, we both over the last 12 months, have held Bitcoin, and Coinbase accounts on ledgers. If not in 10 years, but in the next year we had the opportunity to shift those funds and exposure over to a Fidelity account in which we own some Bitcoin ETF stock, would you do it?

Jay Kang: No. No because I am a Bitcoin purist in the sense that I feel like people should just own their own coins because the rest of the market …

Aaron Lammer: I thought you were out.

Jay Kang: Well, I mean, I have a very small amount of Bitcoin. But if I were to get back in, I feel like one needs to have a good faith engagement with the idea that this thing could get massive. For it to get massive, it might get massive because all these derivative markets and products that are coming out, but I don’t think that that’s the vision of Bitcoin and alternate cryptocurrency. I would rather support and believe in the idea that perhaps this thing actually has legs, than to believe that it’s a interesting thing to bet on. There’s enough things in my life that I bet on, that are more entertaining to watch than the price of Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, I hate to be a Bitcoin non-purist, but continually the biggest vulnerability in my entire exposure to cryptocurrencies is losing it, getting hacked,fat fingering it. I think I’d be tempted.

Jay Kang: Fat fingering.

Aaron Lammer: At a certain point I’m like, yes, I’m really glad I experienced raw unrefined powder Bitcoin, and held it and huffed it, but now that I’ve been on that trip, I’d be just as ready. I got some stocks over with Fidelity.

Aaron Lammer: Here’s the other reason. I think strategically I’d do better with that. If I was just like the price was weirdly abstracted by the ETF where it wasn’t one to one, I was just like, “I just bought some shares in that, and I saw every year it went up X,” that’s probably how I’d manage to hold for a decade, more so than sitting here on GDAX like, “Don’t sell. Don’t sell. Oh God.”

Jay Kang: I get this uncut raw version of Bitcoin though is what’s appealing about it. Not just to me, but to a lot of people. That’s why it’s an interesting investment opportunity. Why wouldn’t you just buy a bunch of weed penny stocks, or any penny stock instead?

Aaron Lammer: ’Cause Bitcoin is way better idea and investment than weed penny stocks, which are terrible ideas and investments.

Jay Kang: I wish you had told that to me three years ago.

Aaron Lammer: Your question is like, “Why don’t you just bet on Stoke City games.” I’m like, “We could, but I think Bitcoin’s a better investment.”

Jay Kang: Yeah. It really is a all or nothing thing.

Aaron Lammer: But I have a worse idea. Like, “Yeah, we could do that.”

Jay Kang: You’re trying to mitigate a little bit of risk. What if the risk was 100%?

Aaron Lammer: The most notable moment during our entire Augur episode was when I was like, “Let’s put in a test bet.” You were like, “That’s it?”

Jay Kang: I still maintain that we should have bet more on that price.

Aaron Lammer: We’re down on that bet right now.

Jay Kang: Oh, did it fail?

Aaron Lammer: No. It doesn’t fail. It positions itself. When the market moves, you get unrealized profit/loss, and then when you exit the market, it pays out that.

Jay Kang: The second reason why the crypto prices are going up, according to the news, is that Asia is interested again in crypto. Now that is a very broad way of saying there’s a lot more volume in Asian markets than there was in the past few months when all sorts of regulatory stuff happened, and there was a big chill, which many people would ascribe to the fact … A lot of the crash and the chop that we’ve had, people think it’s because Korea, and parts of China, and Japan weren’t as crypto crazy.

Aaron Lammer: Well, this is something we’ve come back to several times. One of our first episodes we had a Korean crypto expert on. We don’t know anything about the Asia crypto markets. I’m not convinced that reading things in America gives you a tremendous amount of insight into that.

Jay Kang: Well, we know why the markets cooled, and we know why they went hot, which was almost exclusively Chinese money laundering. We know that it’s harder to launder money through Korean crypto markets if you’re a Chinese billionaire, than it was before.

Aaron Lammer: Our good friend, Chris Dannen, the miner who was on this show, recently made a trip to China to secure some mining hardware. Some of his impressions were interesting. I’m gonna have him back on the show to talk about it. But one of the things he was saying is the Chinese really believe in and understand the mining business, because the mining business is you put in resources, you get paid out. It’s not based on price.

Jay Kang: It’s not speculation.

Aaron Lammer: They think of HODLing Bitcoin as ridiculous. They’re not long-term price speculators. They’re just like, “Let’s get in the crypto business. Let’s mine.” There’s much less one to one speculating. That’s less of a thing there.

Jay Kang: That’s interesting. It’s probably a better business.

Aaron Lammer: If it’s a great business. I think it’s an awesome business if you are successful at it, it’s a great business.

Jay Kang: If you’re not leveraging every single profit that you make off of the price of Bitcoin by keeping all your Bitcoin … Yeah, yeah, yeah. That doesn’t make sense.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, the Chinese are exploiting, as far as I understand, people are in China are good at hardware manufacturing. The resources are there for hardware manufacturing.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: That’s a much better edge than trying to guess the next movement of Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, that’s true.

Aaron Lammer: But anyway, most people are saying that this Asian volume is coming because China is on the verge of devaluing its own currency. I don’t know all the economic origins of that. There’s stuff with trade war politics, and the general continued belief that the Chinese currency is overvalued and propped up by the government.

Jay Kang: Yeah. The idea is that people are once again, because of a potential currency squeeze, trying to ship some of their money out to crypto.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. Into Bitcoin. Which could even be a short-term move where you just buy Bitcoin, wait until the currency devalues, re-buy currency.

Jay Kang: Well look, if that is true, and again, you and I have no reason to believe it’s true or not true, but we did read about it, that means that … I think that that of all things, even more than the ETF is actually probably extraordinarily good sign for the price of Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: I agree.

Jay Kang: Because if every rich person in China, which there are many, decides that they’re gonna put 2% of their assets or their currency into cryptocurrency, that’s huge volume. Actually, now that I think about it, we should figure out if that’s true or not, ’cause that might be the return of FOMO Kang.

Aaron Lammer: FOMO Kang, knocking at the door. Scratching around. Well, I think that this is further. If this is really happening, which giant asterisk on that this is actually happening, but in the scenario in which this is really happening, we’ve seen these examples in Venezuela, in Zimbabwe, where as currency goes in to free fall, people put their life savings into Bitcoin. I’ve always that was a significant use case, but you also could say how much of the use case really is that it if these are nearly bankrupt countries where people are fleeing to Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: The Chinese example of, I see a negative dip for my local currency, I’m just gonna get out for a few months until the risk, or I’m gonna put some of my money as a hedge in Bitcoin. You could really imagine a future in which money is flowing in and out of Bitcoin, as basically a way to hedge and potential even short your own national currency.

Jay Kang: Yeah. If it honestly becomes a way in which large companies and thriving economies where individual people in those economies are using crypto as a way to manipulate their own currency, that means that the volume on cryptocurrencies is going to spike everywhere. It won’t just be through Bitcoin, it’ll be through smaller alts where people with more risk appetite are going to do it that way.

Aaron Lammer: One thing that makes me bullish, generally when we come to this point in these conversations is I don’t think Bitcoin needs to succeed on every front to be worth even that pie in the sky $40,000 valuation. If it’s a place that large percentages of Chinese ultra rich park money in and out of, that’ll …

Jay Kang: Instead of buying paints, which is what they do right now.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, instead of buying New York City real estate, which has been doing just fine. Most of these things that people park money in do great. That is a great place to live.

Jay Kang: Which is why our money laundering ETF is still the best idea we’ve ever had.

Aaron Lammer: Money laundering. Although we always were like, “Oh, Monero.” As people get more sophisticated they’re gonna go for the ones that are even better for money laundering, like Monero. I don’t know if that jump is still ahead, or people are just more brazen and they’re like, “Well I know and trust Bitcoin.” Yes, it’s easier to trace the movements of it, but it’s also semi-respectable.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Semi-semi-respectable.

Aaron Lammer: Semi-semi.

Jay Kang: Speaking of semi-semi-respectable, should we call our friend, Doug Kim?

Aaron Lammer: Yes. Our friend Doug Kim, he’s been on the show before. We kid with him. Doug is a big alt guy, and he’s also a big poker player. We’ve been checking in with him at the World Series of Poker as Bitcoin has surged and alts, particularly Ethereum, have not. I’m interested in what he thinks about that, and his life decisions to go all alts.

Jay Kang: I will say that the only way that I’d really can track alt markets right now, because I’m no longer candle watching, is that occasional Doug, after not talking to us for 10 days, will send a FML message to us. Then we’ll be like, “Alts must be dead.” We got one of those recently, so we wanted to check in with him.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, let’s give him a call.

Aaron Lammer: Hey, I’m gonna but in here for a second to tell you a little bit about our sponsor this week, Techmeme. I go on Techmeme.com, sometimes several times a day to find out what I missed in a world of tech. They have now made it even easier for those podcast friendly listeners out there who prefer to get their news in podcast format by distilling all the best of Techmeme into podcast form. It’s called the Techmeme Ride Home Podcast. It comes out Monday through Friday, every day, around 5:00 p.m. Eastern, 15 to 20 minutes long.

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Aaron Lammer: All right, here we are back with the show.

Aaron Lammer: Welcome, Doug. It’s been a while. It’s been a while since we’ve had you on the show.

Doug Kim: It’s crypto winter out there. Winter has come and …

Jay Kang: No it’s not.

Aaron Lammer: It’s not.

Jay Kang: It’s only crypto winter for people in the Waves hall of fame, like yourself.

Aaron Lammer: You’re like someone who moves to Alaska and is like, “It’s real cold here.”

Doug Kim: Yeah, I guess I moved north of the wall, ’cause it’s really fucking cold.

Aaron Lammer: I assume that you didn’t secretly convert all your holdings to Bitcoin since we last talked, in which case you would really, really be sounding good.

Doug Kim: No. Yeah, I am still in the hall of fame in many of these alts that I still currently hold. I have not made a trade, I don’t think, since I want to say April or March.

Jay Kang: For the listeners who are not familiar with Doug, Doug’s strategy in crypto which works and doesn’t work, I would say, I think Doug would admit that, is that he would buy large, large, large bags of alts and then hold them for years. Is that a fair way to assess the way that you have gone into the crypto market?

Doug Kim: Years is a little bit of a overstatement. I’d say months is more accurate, just ’cause of the speed of the crypto market is …

Jay Kang: It feels like years.

Doug Kim: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Doug, what do you think the chances that you’d die still holding your Waves bags are at this point? Where would we set the Augur market on that?

Doug Kim: Oh, my God. That would be a … I don’t know exactly…

Jay Kang: Doug has a bag of the Waves token that he has held for, it has to be over a year at this point in time.

Doug Kim: Over a year, actually. It’s actually over a year now. I got it of May of last year. We’re on long-term capital losses now.

Jay Kang: Doug, what is happening in the alt market right now? Because I think that there was a period of time in which everybody who listened to this show knew what was happening with 20 different coins. I don’t know if that is true anymore. What is the outlook on the alt market right now? You said that it’s winter. How bad is it right now?

Doug Kim: There’s a few prevailing theories that are going around right now. One is that CBOE applied for a Bitcoin ETF, and because of that, people are selling their alts into Bitcoin, similar to the idea from last year where they saw Bitcoin Cash doing so well, so they were trying to sell their alts into Bitcoin to get that S2X coin that never came out

Doug Kim: Personally, I don’t know. It could be true, but I feel like alts are so oversold already as it is. I don’t see anyone really doing that anymore. Who is selling their alt …

Jay Kang: It seems like a difficult scenario to believe. What is the other scenarios? Do you have a better scenario?

Aaron Lammer: I mean I think that scenario is part of it, ’cause it’s not like alts have been getting wrecked. They’ve just not been going up while Bitcoin’s been going up.

Jay Kang: But that’s getting wrecked.

Aaron Lammer: That is getting wrecked.

Doug Kim: Oh, for sure. Even the past couple weeks I lost 20% in Bitcoin value, which although my USD value is okay.

Aaron Lammer: Jay’s laughing right now. Jay’s laughing maniacally.

Doug Kim: It actually hurts more when my Bitcoin … I’ve talked about this before but you just want your Bitcoins.

Jay Kang: I think even after all this, Doug, ’cause you were one of the first people who convinced Arron and I to stop thinking in terms of US dollar value for our portfolio, but only in Bitcoin value because the future is Bitcoin. Are you still fully onboard on that? ’Cause I feel like that dogma which I agreed with at the time, I feel like it’s leashed out a little bit, that people don’t feel as strongly about it as they did six months ago. Are you still on the only thing that matters is Bitcoin value?

Doug Kim: I think I am fundamentally. Obviously thinking about things in dollars and real worth and value, really skyrocketed for me in the past half year as I now know what it feels like to lose millions of dollars. I think I was … I mean, everyone was drunk on the rise of Bitcoin from 5K to 20K.

Aaron Lammer: Who amongst us hasn’t traded drunk?

Jay Kang: All right, Doug, what’s the second theory?

Doug Kim: Second theory is just basically there’s just alt fatigue right now. Without new money in Bitcoin, I think it’s dropped from 20K to 6K and taking the whole market down with it. I think people got gun shy and a lot of the people that got into crypto in the late 2017, probably jumped out and don’t want to come back. With that, you see people just slowly filing for the exit until the next crypto boom, which hopefully this 6K to 8K signifies.

Doug Kim: I think in the short-term, people are looking to sell their alts into Bitcoin, and try to capture that Bitcoin gain. But I think long-term, if this signals a more of a shift in re-interest into Bitcoin and the crypto market in general, I think it could be good for alts. Hopefully money starts to flow back from Bitcoin into alts.

Jay Kang: Aaron and I used to always chart out the psychology of a new user. We would say they buy on Coinbase, they only get three coins. They get a little bored. Some of the coins are expensive, which they psychology think means there’s less room to grow, and so they start looking around and they Google stuff like, “What coin should I buy?” They say, “Ripple is only 18 cents,” and they go on Bittrex, and then they buy Ripple. That’s what fuel the lot of the alt market. The reason why there’s some evidence that maybe this was true was that there did seem to be a slight lag effect, but places like Bittrex and Binance, these alt markets, they capped out their subscriptions during this alt crazy place. You couldn’t even get onto the exchanges.

Jay Kang: What is the volume like on these exchanges right now? ’Cause I know that for a while, like right after the crash, places like Bittrex just became a ghost town.

Doug Kim: Yeah. No, it’s exactly that. I think a lot of these places, Poloniex, last year at this time was one of the big players. Now I don’t even know if it’s functioning anymore. I think Binance has taken over as the defacto place to go to for alts. Bittrex is kind of like, yeah. I don’t know. Like the crypto market self, it’s just really fast paced. If you’re not on top of the relevancy here, you’re left in the dust, especially with all these decentralized exchanges coming out.

Aaron Lammer: Let me give a different user profile. We’ll call this person the Aaron Lammer customer, which is, goes through the entire cycle that Jay just described, flowing through the Coinbase coins onto Bittrex, pick up some alts, ride the alts up, and maybe even gain a little Bitcoin value along the way.

Aaron Lammer: This is an idealized version of myself, which this guy just went and bought a bunch of alts during a bull run, you’re gonna get some Bitcoin value if you buy a bunch of alts right before a bull run. Then it peaks and comes down, and you lose all that Bitcoin value, and then some, on the way down. And you go, “I don’t really have any strategy gear about how I’m playing this alts game. It’s just a more volatile version of the Bitcoin game. I’m keep score in Bitcoin. Why don’t I just acknowledge that I’m an amateur player and mostly hold Bitcoin?” I think this actually extends even to some of the more conservative alts. Hold Bitcoin and all of the alts that you knew about in the first month you were into crypt which are Ethereum, for me, Monero, Litecoin, Zcash. That’s basically my portfolio right now.

Doug Kim: It wasn’t Sumo? It wasn’t Sumokoin?

Aaron Lammer: Okay, Sumo’s the outlier in my portfolio.

Jay Kang: Also, didn’t they change their name? I feel like …

Aaron Lammer: No, no, no. There was a controversy and there was a fork, so it became RYO Coin and Sumokoin.

Jay Kang: Do you hold RYO Coin?

Aaron Lammer: I sold my RYO Coin into Sumokoin.

Doug Kim: So you’re still Sumo cum laude.

Aaron Lammer: Yes. I am still … Other than Sumokoin, everything I own is a non-exotic alt.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so what about … I agree that this Aaron Lammer profile that we are talking about is probably the best case scenario for somebody who got into crypto, rode it up, felt like they were gonna be super rich, had all their dreams dashed but then decided to still stay in the crypto space. Do you think that those people are forever going be dissuaded. The benefit here is that we have Aaron Lammer right here. Aaron, are you ever gonna go and speculate on coins just because you like their logo?

Aaron Lammer: If someone makes the most halfway compelling case that there’s about to be a unmissable alt season, I will FOMO in, in two seconds flat.

Jay Kang: But how is your decisions making different? Because before, we were buying based purely on price action, what people on Twitter told us to do based on TA charts and logo quality.

Aaron Lammer: I think I’ll be a little savvier this time around, but not a lot.

Jay Kang: Okay, I am also then in the Aaron Lammer category, as much as I’d like to be the naysayer and the reasonable one on this podcast.

Doug Kim: Oh, FOMO Kang is very real.

Aaron Lammer: My best alt trading experiences were that time when me and you were getting started and you said, “I know this guy named Doug, and he knows about some alts.” I was like, “Yo, you got to text this Doug and get him to tell us which ones to buy.” Doug texted back eight bags I just bought the ball blindly. Held them for three months. That was by far my best run in crypto, except for metal.

Jay Kang: I actually …

Doug Kim: Did you sell them at a profit?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I sold them. There was no way to not make money during the time period. But it was like eight solid alts and in a bull alt market, you can do really well with eight solid alts.

Jay Kang: I feel like we need to clarify this story, or at least fix it for the record, which it was not that I text Doug and asked Doug to tell us what coins. I went back through my Twitter DM history with Doug, found the time when he told what alts he had, screen shotted it and sent it to you. You didn’t even wait for confirmation.

Aaron Lammer: Oh, that’s true.

Aaron Lammer: That’s right. Also, I think I only bought the ones that were on … I basically just signed up for Bittrex and bought all the ones that were on Bittrex.

Jay Kang: To make the historical record completely accurate, I bought the same alts for the same reason.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, let’s see if we can remember what those alts were.

Jay Kang: They’re Metal.

Aaron Lammer: Of course Waves.

Doug Kim: Oh God, Metal.

Aaron Lammer: Also, if I had just held Waves from then ’til now, it would be great.

Jay Kang: Wings, Metal, Waves, Decred …

Aaron Lammer: Decred.

Jay Kang: Viacoin? No, no, no. That was you.

Aaron Lammer: No, not that. I brought that mess into our life.

Doug Kim: Decred actually has been pretty solid throughout this.

Jay Kang: Monero.

Aaron Lammer: Chris Dannen, the miner who was on this show is one of the big Decred traders. Decred’s done very well. That was probably the best of all of this.

Jay Kang: Monero was one of them because Doug has had a huge bag of Monero.

Aaron Lammer: I think Monero actually wasn’t on that list. This was Doug’s exotically plumed alts.

Jay Kang: We weren’t even like, “What alts are you buying?” We’re like, “What are the dumb alts you’re buying?”

Aaron Lammer: We were like, “Which are the ones that can go 10X?”

Doug Kim: All those … Decred’s okay. Metal has been de-listed from almost every exchange.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I got rid of that Metal a while ago.

Aaron Lammer: I can’t even remember … Oh, and of course, our favorite Ubiq.

Jay Kang: No, Ubiq was not on that list.

Aaron Lammer: No?

Jay Kang: No.

Aaron Lammer: I’m pretty sure. Doug’s a pretty huge Ubiq fan.

Doug Kim: I’ve had Ubiq for a while, so it could have been.

Jay Kang: It might have been Ubiq. At that point, that would have been a good one at some point. Doug, how did you choose those alts? Give us a two cent explanation of how you chose those ones back in the day.

Doug Kim: It’s funny because I too am an Aaron Lammer type apparently, because I got …

Jay Kang: No you’re not. No you’re not. ’Cause he’s held these alts the whole time.

Aaron Lammer: Not that I’ve been referred to as the white Doug Kim.

Doug Kim: No, because I too got them off this guy. This guy called Frank …

Jay Kang: Blue Magic Capital.

Doug Kim: … from Blue Magic Capital.

Jay Kang: Oh that’s right.

Aaron Lammer: Oh right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I noticed when I found Blue Magic Capital that all your picks were the same picks as Blue Magic Capital.

Doug Kim: Yeah. Which is suspect because he is not been anywhere to be seen for the past six months. No one knows where he is.

Aaron Lammer: He probably took worst losses than you. He was in some crazy alts.

Jay Kang: He was in really crazy alts.

Aaron Lammer: The Blue Magic Capital Extreme Portfolio, which is where I got my Darcrus pick from, had some wild shit, like toxic plutonium kind of shit.

Jay Kang: Yeah. He was really into GameCredits token, I remember.

Aaron Lammer: MaidSafe too.

Jay Kang: Yeah, MaidSafe Coin.

Aaron Lammer: Basically, me and Doug both took our picks from a 21 year old who may have disappeared.

Jay Kang: For him, there was no verification that he wasn’t just beep booping and typing random shit.

Aaron Lammer: He’s probably a CIA agent or something.

Jay Kang: That’s amazing. Doug, basically your strategy was to take the equivalent of a Tout, like one of those people who say, “Pay me $2,000. I’ll give you my NFL picks.”

Doug Kim: Pretty much.

Jay Kang: But it worked out for you in a lot of ways, at first.

Doug Kim: Sort of. I mean …

Jay Kang: At first, you made more money in crypto than anyone I know, personally, because of this strategy.

Doug Kim: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. At first.

Aaron Lammer: You bought some big bags.

Jay Kang: You bought Monero at $12, or something like that, right?

Doug Kim: $14.

Jay Kang: $14, because of this type of strategy, which I think is still probably very plus. Monera is not $14 now, is it?

Doug Kim: Under 40,

Aaron Lammer: Most of what crypto consists of in the long run is when you bought it, not what you bought.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Yeah that is true.

Doug Kim: Oh yeah, sure.

Jay Kang: Yeah. If you had bought anything at that point, then you were probably doing okay.

Aaron Lammer: Well except all the coins that went out of business.

Jay Kang: Like Metal probably, not great.

Doug Kim: I mean, honestly, I could have corrected a whole host of errors if I just fucking sold the shit ton during the 20K bonanza. I feel like a lot of us are just greedy. Going from 5K to 20K, I don’t care what the technology is or what the fundamentals are. I feel like that’s a good time to take something off the table when something 4Xs in a month, especially with the magnitude of how big Bitcoin was already. I think it went from 100 billion, to 400 billion. I think when that happens, it’s time to take some chips off the table, regardless.

Jay Kang: Okay, my question to you, follow up, is that if we have another bull run like that, are you going to be cost averaging out? Are you gonna be taking profits?

Doug Kim: Oh, of course not. I’m a fucking degenerate.

Aaron Lammer: This is what we were just talking about earlier. We were like is this next time there’s a bull run, is it gonna move more slowly because people have learned their lesson and are gonna take profits along the way, sell at each station, which would really slow growth? We were like, “Yeah. Maybe people will do that.” Probably not though.

Doug Kim: No. Yeah. Because at the end of the day one to three percent of the world’s population even own crypto. If there is another bull run, it could be even more powerful than the last one.

Aaron Lammer: It should be. I mean, we were giving … Okay, so we did this earlier in the program. We were saying two scenarios here. The first scenario is alternate scenario where it never crashed. We got all the way up to 16,000, 18,000. Say it crashed at 12,000 and then bounced right back up, so it’s January and it’s sitting at 18,000. What’s your pie in the sky fantasy of where Bitcoin is at the end of 2018, in that scenario?

Doug Kim: Oh, at the end of 2018?

Aaron Lammer: When you were at the highest, when you were at your peak, what were you like, “This is where it could go?”

Doug Kim: I guess 50K.

Aaron Lammer: I said 40. We’re in the same ballpark. Now under the real scenario, which is that it’s at 8200 or something, what’s your pie in the sky, Bitcoin scenario?

Doug Kim: Ah, geez. I would be happy just to get back to 20. But I think realistically, I would say … I mean, I don’t know. It’s tough to say if this is the bear market that everyone says, what happened from 2013 to 2015, with how long it will be, but I’d say … There could be another late year rally. I’d say realistically, I’ll give a target of 12K, conservative target of 12K.

Aaron Lammer: You landed exactly. Jay came in at 12, and I came in at 20. You’ve described both personalities in one analogy.

Jay Kang: As the biggest bagholder that we know of alt who is still holding them, just give us a sense of how you feel about the possibility that we’ll see another alt season? Do you think it’s definitely gonna happen? Do you think it might never happen?

Doug Kim: Oh, I think it will definitely happen. It’s just how long it will be ’til it happens. That’s the big kicker and how long alts will bleed until it happens.

Jay Kang: Okay. Follow-up question then, which is do you think that a next alt season though, because these things, there’s a new coin that still comes out almost every single day, there’s newer cooler versions of all the bags that you and I held. Do you think that the new alt season will just be different alts? Or do you think that it will make it so a project like Waves, which has a long history … Why wouldn’t it just be the new, shinier Waves that goes up?

Doug Kim: I don’t know. It could be. We did see a lot of that in the last alt season while traditional alts did rise, there were these “new and shiny” alts, that in my opinion, were pieces of shit, but that still skyrocketed like Verge, or I don’t know …

Jay Kang: Tron.

Doug Kim: Tron. Tron’s still in the top 10,

Jay Kang: Lumens, XLM.

Doug Kim: Yeah, exactly. All I know is that most of the alts will rise. I just think alts in general would rise, but as far as the magnitude in each rising … I do think that there will probably be some new, shiny alt that will 1,000X overnight, and they’ll be hard to predict what that will be because there is an element of potential is more sexier than actual real world application and use, ’cause the sky is the limit in terms of like, “Oh, this could be applied to all aspects of life,” or whatever. This new blockchain idea, or whatever. Whereas if you have something in the late stages that is already developed, it’s like, “Oh. This is all it can do.”

Aaron Lammer: We’ve been playing with Augur. I don’t know if you’ve played with it at all.

Doug Kim: I have not played with it. I’m familiar with the platform, but I’m not exactly sure how it functions.

Aaron Lammer: The strange part about Augur is there was a period during the alt season heyday that we discussed where someone would be like, “We’re coming out with this experimental test net,” and it was up 17% that day. Now you have companies like Augur that are putting out a real, usable product on the Ethereum blockchain. People are actually covering it. People are making bets on it. There’s was a little nice action and popped back down. Not really trading notably at a different amount rate than when they had nothing, to say for their name. What do you make of that? What do you make of how indifferent the market is to these kind of things now?

Doug Kim: I think if you think about it from a market perspective, you think, “Okay, they have a cool product, but when is it gonna be available for primetime?” If you think about it from a startup perspective, if I’m thinking about something like Snapchat, or Instagram Stories, or something tech-related where it’s like, “Okay, I see this cool product. Now if you disseminated it, it’ll instantly go viral.” Whereas Augur is like it’s end user, random people who want to predict shit, which is most population, probably a lot of them haven’t heard of cryptocurrencies in general anymore.

Doug Kim: That leap from end user to the product is still dependent on the proliferation of cryptocurrencies in general. When you have that upper limit set, it is dependent on the price of Bitcoin, and the price of Ethereum, in terms of where it’s at, user base wise.

Aaron Lammer: I think that all makes sense. For me, I’m surprised that we’re not handicapping the projects that have at least been able to build something much more favorably, compared to the people who are just working from white papers. But I guess in a market where nothing’s really moving, no one wants to be the first person to make that move. Maybe once someone like Augur gets added to Coinbase, or it becomes easier to buy it.

Aaron Lammer: I also do wonder, we’ve talked about this, you don’t really need the REP token to use Augur. Ultimately I would say Augur is more bullish for Ethereum than the REP token itself, which is almost an after thought. We haven’t really validated the hypothesis that these companies that are building Ethereum products and using their own token, it really exerts such a positive pressure on the price of the token.

Doug Kim: Right. You’re saying that they don’t even need to use the REP token for their …

Aaron Lammer: Well you do to make markets, but you don’t to bet.

Jay Kang: You can bet however much you want without being involved at all in the REP token.

Doug Kim: Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah, I don’t see how that would incentivize holding REP tokens.

Jay Kang: Only if you want to make a lot of markets, which is what I want to do.

Jay Kang: Doug, the last time we were checking in with you via Telegram, you were at the World Series of Poker.

Doug Kim: Right.

Jay Kang: How did you do?

Doug Kim: Did probably that worst that I could do. I made Day 3, and I didn’t make the money, which basically means that you play for two and a half whole days, and you lose money. It’s cool, it was a fun experience, 85% of the time you walk away with nothing, so it’s to be expected. I had a good time, just I spent a week there. My first table, I knew it was bad because people were talking about mining cryptocurrency, and there was a guy there to my right or left, who said he ran 400 miners in Canada or something. I was like, “Oh shit. This is probably a shitty table.”

Aaron Lammer: Why would that be a shitty table? Don’t you want rich people at your table who are just throwing money around?

Doug Kim: Oh, they’re not the type of rich people that I want at the table. They’re the type of people who …

Aaron Lammer: You don’t want rich people with a background in probability and mathematics or something.

Jay Kang: That’s true. That is true. Doug, my main question for you, the reason why I decided to have you on the show is because there is no community in the world that is more deeply into crypto than the poker gambling community. This is really the first World Series of Poker, post bull run, because last June, July, August, when the World Series generally is, over the summer, Bitcoin was starting, it was talked about a lot, but it was still around 3500, $4,000.

Jay Kang: A lot of the people who you and I know, who are heavy into gambling and also were heavy into crypto, at some point now they might have lost it all at this point, but at some point, they became mega rich in the past year. My question was always, how does this affect the poker economy?

Jay Kang: Now one thing I know happened is that during the mega bull run, we’re talking about 14,000 to 20,000, a lot of the big stakes nosebleed games in Las Vegas dried up. People stopped playing super high stakes poker because they were making so much money. I don’t know if they completely dried up but there less action because people making so much money in crypto, that they stopped relying on gambling as a source of income, which means that there is gonna be less gambling because a lot of these guys they would rather do something else than sit at poker table.

Aaron Lammer: I would have loved to see an infographic that takes a snapshot of the casino that the World Series of Poker was hosted in, all of the players’ collective net worth December 2017 and February 2018.

Doug Kim: Oh my God. That would have been incredible.

Aaron Lammer: It’s probably like the entire net worth of an entire continent.

Jay Kang: The chart would look exactly like Doug’s chart during that time.

Jay Kang: What was it like ’cause there was a lot of entrants this year. I think this was the second biggest field of all time, second to the year in which you came in sixth, or seventh. What place?

Doug Kim: Seventh. Yeah. That was 8,733 players that year.

Jay Kang: In the biggest World Series of Poker, for those of you who are not familiar with Doug, Doug came in seventh.

Aaron Lammer: I did not realize that there was an elastic number of players in the World Series of Poker. I thought it was the same number of entrants every year.

Jay Kang: No you can buy in up to a minute before start.

Aaron Lammer: It could be in 20 years that there’s 10 times more players in the World Series of Poker?

Jay Kang: I could be, or there could be 800.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, ’cause people gave up gambling.

Jay Kang: Yeah, right. Exactly. Doug, what was it … I imagine that a lot of the talk was about crypto. The guy who ultimately won the entire thing for a day or so, he was wearing a Blockfolio patch on his shirt.

Doug Kim: Oh, of course.

Jay Kang: How much of the conversation at the World Series of Poker was about crypto?

Aaron Lammer: How much do you get for wearing one of those patches on your shirt?

Jay Kang: I have no idea.

Aaron Lammer: Doug, has anyone ever sponsored you?

Doug Kim: Unfortunately, no.

Aaron Lammer: Doug, how much would we have to pay to get you to wear a Coin Talk patch next time you’re at World Series of Poker?

Jay Kang: I think it’s more than Coin Talk is.

Doug Kim: Just a 1,000 Sumokoin.

Aaron Lammer: That’s locked now. Regardless of what the price of Sumo is. We’re gonna pay you 1,000 Sumo. Our patch is gonna look kind of like a Premier League jersey where you have a tight shirt with Coin Talk and the Lambo painted on the front.

Doug Kim: It’s got to be really big. Really big.

Doug Kim: Nice.

Jay Kang: Answer the question. How much do you think you’d make for wearing a Blockfolio patch?

Aaron Lammer: Doug, just answer the damn question.

Doug Kim: There’s so many questions you’re throwing at me right now.

Jay Kang: On the last day of … ’Cause this is pretty deep into it. This was with eight players left. He was wearing a Blockfolio patch. What do you think he gets paid for wearing that?

Doug Kim: For the final table, because it was on ESPN, Pay-Per-View, I think he probably would have got 10K to 20K for that.

Jay Kang: The year that were in it, you were at the final table. It was the height of the poker boom. It was still, to date, the biggest and richest World Series of Poker of all time. Did nobody approach you to put a patch on?

Doug Kim: I already had deal with PokerStars at that time. I think they did this with all of the qualifiers. Basically if you wore their stuff throughout the thing, you got an extra $1,000, in addition to the package that you got from winning from them. They had another stipulation is, if you made it to the final table with their stuff, they have you an extra 100K. I got an extra 100K from them.

Jay Kang: What?

Aaron Lammer: Oh, that’s pretty good.

Jay Kang: 100 thou … That’s pretty good.

Aaron Lammer: See that’s the smart way to do. ’Cause I was gonna ask, do they do the sponsorships in the early rounds, and they just have to get a bunch of people so that they end up having people in the later tables. But what they do is they stake you early really small, and then they’re only paying out big to the people who actually make that final table.

Doug Kim: Right, exactly.

Aaron Lammer: That’s a pretty good amount of money to wear that patch.

Jay Kang: Yeah, that’s pretty good.

Doug Kim: I would have got an extra mil if I won the whole thing from them, and then a quarter mil if I made the top three.

Jay Kang: Doug, I have a pretty good memory. My memory of what you wore during that final table was you were wearing a Yankees, sunglasses and a hoodie. Is that right?

Doug Kim: I was wearing a New York Mariano Rivera jersey, a Duke shirt underneath, I think, and that PokerStars hat.

Aaron Lammer: Wow, you were on full trail mode. Yankees and Duke at once.

Doug Kim: Just to fuck with Jay.

Jay Kang: You didn’t even know it then.

Doug Kim: For the past. Exactly.

Jay Kang: I was just like, who is that Korean guy who just won $2,000,000. That’s amazing.

Jay Kang: Okay, let’s go back to the first question we asked.

Aaron Lammer: Doug, why won’t you answer the question?

Jay Kang: How much of the talk at the World Series of Poker was about crypto?

Doug Kim: I think it varied from table to table.

Jay Kang: Was there a lot of crypto talk?

Doug Kim: Oh, yeah. For sure. Even last year. Last year, someone was wearing a Dash pin. The talk as already started from last year, but this year people were saying, “Oh man, imagine if the World Series was in January when shit was going crazy.” They were saying like, “We could have easily hit 10K players in the main event,” or something.

Jay Kang: I’m being completely honest here. If it was in January, I would have played. I would have played like, “All I have to do is sell half a Bitcoin to go play in the World Series of Poker. I’m in.”

Doug Kim: I actually talked with some high stakes pros. One of them I talked to actually was just full-time in crypto, and he just came out here to play tournaments. He said he was one of the top 20 players in Pot-Limit Omaha, but nowadays, he just quit all that because you’re making magnitudes higher money than you could ever make playing poker in these markets right now.

Doug Kim: Yeah, I’ve been talking to plenty of former high stakes pros who are just like, “Yeah, I’m just here to have fun and chill,” and just play the occasional tournament.

Aaron Lammer: Are most of these players holding just to have huge stashes of crypto, or are they doing a lot of day trading also?

Doug Kim: Tough to say. I think it varies from person to person. I did see Jason Les around. I’m sure he’s more the day to day trading, and strategizing, and stuff. But I think a lot of them got into Ethereum and Bitcoin really early, like before 2017, and just probably cashed out a decent amount where they’re at a loss as what to do now.

Jay Kang: Do you think they actually cashed out? Did a lot of people actually cash out? ’Cause I know there are two things about the poker community which is that they’re very smart, analytic people who are looking for alternate forms of a living. That obviously matches up. I would say that all these people are extremely bright. The other thing is that the majority of them are degenerates. I could see that most of them wouldn’t ever cash out. Now at some point, if you buy in early enough, it doesn’t matter if Bitcoin is 6,000. You’re still really, really rich.

Jay Kang: What was the sentiment around what Bit … ’Cause I would trust these peoples’ assessment over a lot of peoples’ assessments. Were they bullish on Bitcoin still, and crypto in general? Or were they bearish?

Doug Kim: I mean, yeah. I don’t think that any of them fully cashed out. I think a lot of them probably still have a shit ton of money in crypto. I think that even at this price point, a lot of people are still big believers in crypto. But I do think that many of them who did get ridiculously rich probably did cash some out. I mean, you do have to pay for Lambos in dollars still, right?

Aaron Lammer: That depends on what site you’re at. I think there is some high-end Lambo for Bitcoins

Doug Kim: There was this one guy who wrote “Lambo Club” on his sweatshirt. I was like, “Oh gosh.”

Jay Kang: No. No.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, fuck that guy. You don’t have a patch bro? Come one, check out this Coin Talk patch.

Doug Kim: Oh, no. It said, “Future Lambo owner.” That’s what it said.

Jay Kang: Oh that’s it?

Aaron Lammer: Future? Lame.

Aaron Lammer: Doug, what’s going on with Just Doug and your film ventures?

Doug Kim: Just Doug is still on the pitching tour. I’m still trying to get it developed, trying to get it sold. I have a few meetings in the coming weeks that look promising, but with anything in this industry, nothing’s set in stone.

Aaron Lammer: Look, if you want to support this show, first bet on our Augur market, then go pick up Doug’s TV show. It all supports the show.

Doug Kim: I got to make a Augur market for it.

Jay Kang: Doug, where can people find you on social media?

Doug Kim: They can find me on Instagram as @vindicatingjustice, or Twitter and @sweetjutsice.

Aaron Lammer: All right. Well thank you very much, Doug. Come back on soon. Hopefully next time we talk to you we’ll be in the alt spring that we all dreamed of.

Jay Kang: Oh my God. I want a alt season so bad.

Aaron Lammer: Once the market goes up, you’ll be rich, and we’ll be able to afford the Coin Talk patch for your next World Series entrance.

Doug Kim: You’ll have to remind me to slap myself, to sell when it gets to 20K.

Aaron Lammer: Okay yeah. I’m gonna enjoy it. Let’s put a bookmark guys. We’re gonna talk to Doug about how he should sell the next time alts are at least 2X from where they are now. And we’ll see what he says.

Doug Kim: Nice.

Aaron Lammer: All right. Later, Doug.

Doug Kim: Later.

Jay Kang: Thanks, Doug.