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COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press “Listen to the story” above to play the episode. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)

Plus:

  • 💳 Vitalik says the future is $5–10 crypto gift cards
  • 🇨🇳 The Bitmain IPO and Crypto Power Rankings

Thanks to Zach from nycryptoconsulting.com.


Transcript

Aaron Lammer: We’re back in the Crypto cave.

Jay Kang: I have a question for you related to the Crypto cave.

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: Okay. Do you remember when we had-

Aaron Lammer: Ask me anything.

Jay Kang: … when we had the Crypto Cave mascot, which was a gigantic cockroach?

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: Has he been seen? Or she, I don’t mean to-

Aaron Lammer: I don’t think cockroach life cycles … Like, cockroach life cycles are like shit coins. They live fast and hard. That cockroach probably has great-great grandchildren now.

Jay Kang: That cockroach looked like it was like 19 years old, though.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, they are kind of related to lobsters. So maybe you’re right. Speaking of things that can never die, bitcoin and crypto march on to another week. I mean, overall up a bit over the last period … Maybe I’m speaking too soon by the time this airs, it’ll probably be worse than it is now … A little dip today as we go into taping. But nothing dramatic.

Jay Kang: Yeah. It seems like we’re just hovering again. And, you know, every time bitcoin hovers I assume that there’s gonna be like a jolt downwards at some point in the near future. But …

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. There’s something a little bit about like when all these ETFs … So when people started talking about the ETFs I was like … It reminds me of like when a sports team is like on the very, very periphery of the playoff hunt and then someone is like, “I think we’re gonna win the Super Bowl this year!” And it’s like, “Whoa, whoa. Slow down. Like you’re setting yourself up for disappointment.” Like the ETF stuff hasn’t led anywhere particularly good.

Jay Kang: Yeah, the news around the ETF was pretty confusing because the thing that was glommed on by the media was that the Winklevii’s application had been denied.

Aaron Lammer: Right, which the savvier people of the know-it-all crypto online sphere seem to be like, “Well we already knew that the Winklevii … this was just an appeal, this news was already out.” The actual hope is on future ETFs that haven’t been decided yet and they know what those are and I don’t have enough lifespan to actually care enough to research this deeply, but seems like more news to come on the ETF front.

Jay Kang: Yeah it hasn’t been determined. The way that it did sound was that, “Oh bitcoin ETF’s going to happen. Oh, Winkleviis denied, it’s over.” But I don’t think that that’s necessarily true. At the same time, I also think that probably the fact that crypto’s biggest investors, or at least the most public, some of crypto’s most public advocates being denied this probably is more significant than some of the people in the crypto community would say it was.

Aaron Lammer: Well no one wants to hear some bad news, although Vitalik always wanted to inject his own viewpoint. I don’t know if you liked this, tweeted, “I think there’s too much emphasis on bitcoin, Ethereum, whatever, ETFs and not enough emphasis on making it easier for people to buy $5 to $100 in cryptocurrency via cards at corner stores. The former’s better for pumping price, but the latter is much better for actual adoption.” So I don’t think since the Jaxx cruise have we been talking about prepaid cards on this show?

Jay Kang: Yeah, we did talk a lot about it though.

Aaron Lammer: Oh yeah. I feel like we exhausted all of our thoughts on prepaid cards.

Jay Kang: Yeah, whether or not the Applebee’s card is a scam was one, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: But yeah if you go to Target, for example, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: You’ll see that weird aisle, usually near the cash registers where there’s lots of gift cards holding and you and I have never figured out what the purpose of this is-

Aaron Lammer: Oh I think we did, we figured out it was money laundering.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so Applebee’s card money laundering scam. If you’re involved in one, please email us because we’d like to know more about it.

Aaron Lammer: But it goes deeper than that. On Amazon Prime day I noticed, Apple, iTunes credit was for sale $20 for $25 in credit. So some of these gift card pools are also playing on slightly titled economics, this is how credit card points work also, where it’s like you get a cent and a half if you put it on a certain airline. All of these people are basically creating altcoin trading markets for their own bucks which trade between 75 cents and a dollar usually. But what do you think? What do you think about Vitalik’s statement?

Jay Kang: Well, I … okay, so near my house, within two blocks of my house there is a bodega and in that bodega there is a bitcoin ATM and it takes up a large amount of space. I have probably been to this bodega a couple of hundred times and I have never once seen somebody using this bitcoin ATM. Now the bitcoin ATM, if you don’t know, is just a way you can insert in, let’s say $50 of cash and they give you a QR code and that is a certain amount of bitcoin. So it’s not like what Vitalik is saying doesn’t really exist, it’s just that you need to have a bitcoin ATM machine, which is gigantic, to do it and I have no idea why, in the middle of my neighborhood, which does not necessarily seem like a crypto crazy neighborhood has one of these ATMs, nor do I … I actually asked the guy once behind the counter why they had it-

Aaron Lammer: And he was like, “Well Jay Kang of Coin Talk lives in this neighborhood, he’s a crypto celebrity.”

Jay Kang: Well he just kind of shrugged, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I think the idea is that I’m sure the Bitcoin Foundation, or whoever it is that puts out these ATM machines, is paying a monthly rent fee to the bodega to put it in there and they probably have either forgotten it’s there or they don’t care.

Aaron Lammer: Well I think ATMs trade at pretty airport rates.

Jay Kang: What do you mean by airport rates?

Aaron Lammer: I think if you buy bitcoin at an ATM in your neighborhood, you’re getting a very bad transaction rate, which is where the profit comes in for the people who are making bitcoin ATMs. It’s definitely a very specific vision that everyone’s going to go out with their fives and their tens and their change from the bar and go buy $17 dollars worth of bitcoin. That’s not how anyone I know has ever bought in or out of crypto. We talk mostly about people who do the Coinbase thing where you sync your bank account and you put a transfer in. Probably like I think most people are doing that in units of $500, $1,000, maybe minimum a couple of hundred dollars. I don’t know there’s that many people who are doing $7 buys on Coinbase. Is this a democratizing way to pick up crypto? That everyone’s just going to start converting their spare change? I saw another app called Crumbs, that’s another one of these things that takes your change and just auto converts it into bitcoin.

Jay Kang: In defense of the ATM, I’m pretty sure that when they started it was a marketing technique more than anything.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, and kind of a good one.

Jay Kang: Yeah it was like, “Hey, heres a big thing that says bitcoin on it and it looks like it’s easy to do,” and it also sends the message that you can actually convert money for money, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: So I don’t really think that the bitcoin ATMs being a way to be profitable is necessarily that accurate because I think that they probably just did it at a loss understanding this marketing. With these cards, I have two questions about it. The first is the price of bitcoin, as we know, is notoriously volatile, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: So how do you sell a card? Do you go to a 7-Eleven and if the price of bitcoin is at $8,000 one day and $5,000 the next day, does the guy behind the counter at 7-Eleven-

Aaron Lammer: That’s good point, you’ve already thought-

Jay Kang: … tell you?

Aaron Lammer: … you’ve already thought more seriously about this than I have.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah, well I was trying to figure it out. Because, look, I understand what Vitalik’s general take is which is that if you can buy $20 worth of bitcoin at a 7-Eleven and that you don’t have sign up through Coinbase, you don’t have to worry about any of this stuff, you just have a card, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And that if you have drawer full of cards, those cards represent some space on the blockchain that you own, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: But that actually is a much simpler system and it’s much easier for people and places around the world than it is to sign into Coinbase. So for example, you and I have talked about Hong Kong and Chungking Mansions, which is a place where a lot of people from all around the world hawk things like cellphone minutes, right?

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: If those people in Chungking Mansion when you walk in, instead of being like, “Do you want long-distance minutes so that you can call Indonesia?” Instead if they were saying, “Here’s some bitcoin cards, you can own bitcoin.” Is that an easier entry point for people who just want to buy let’s say $5 of bitcoin?

Aaron Lammer: Maybe. Okay, let me give you a … crypto future vision. Like Kim Kardashian tweeted out, “I’m onto bitcoin.” And something and it was her at sponsored-

Jay Kang: Sponsored tweet.

Aaron Lammer: … poker game with like a physical bitcoin, which I guess the story was that some guy who was in this charity game gave her a bitcoin, which great PR move. Yes, that’s rich, you just gave someone a $7,900 token but well done poker player. Okay, so this idea of physical bitcoin, one bitcoin’s too big, but let’s say .01 bitcoin would be trading right now for $78.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: So it sits on the shelf at 7-Eleven, the Wawa. You go into the Wawa-

Jay Kang: Sheets.

Aaron Lammer: The sheets, and it’s got a little dynamic LED price display which shows the current price of this token. At one point, it cost as much as $180 but today, it’s clocking in … like the price of gas clocks in, around $78. Couple of days ago, it was $82, $83, it’s a little cheaper right now. Maybe it’s a little like the lottery. You know when there’s a really big prize in the lottery, people come out and start buying lottery?

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Buy the dip, you see a dip, you’re at the convenience store-

Jay Kang: I don’t think that’s going to happen-

Aaron Lammer: You drop a little bit out of your paycheck and you pick up a .01 bitcoin.

Jay Kang: I don’t think people would be buying a dip for this, I think they would be buying right into bull markets.

Aaron Lammer: I think the title of this episode has to be “Buying the dip at Wawa.”

Jay Kang: Yes, every time the Mega Millions changes, these convenience stores change the number of the Mega Millions thing, so it is not impossible for them to keep up with a fluid pricing structure, fluid price structure. So maybe it’s not as big as a problem. It does seem though that the price of bitcoin changes by the hour and so it seems difficult to price these things things at mega places, or even out at places like Chungking Mansion.

Aaron Lammer: There’s also where you could do it like the gift card’s 50 bucks and you swipe it when you buy it and it loads at the exact rate of bitcoin at that moment.

Jay Kang: Okay so then you have built that an entire infrastructure.

Aaron Lammer: Look, it’s going to be some shit coin that does this and then their business is like-

Jay Kang: The Jaxx liberty coin.

Aaron Lammer: … tokens that are swipes on the card that are loaded or something.

Jay Kang: Yeah, you can use the card at like six vendors around the world to pay for things.

Aaron Lammer: I guess the utopian vision of this, which is why I think Vitalik rides through this vision, is that you’re coming to ride the Ethereum amusement park and it’s like, oh you just drop 20 bucks on your way in, it converts to Ethereum, that’s your tab on the Ready Player One video game universe that you’re going through and it’s as simple as buying a BART card to buy into Ethereum and use it.

Jay Kang: So it would be like Dave & Busters have you been to Dave & Busters?

Aaron Lammer: Yes, yes.

Jay Kang: You just load up a card.

Aaron Lammer: Ethereum, Dave & Busters, great altcoin idea. It’s like Dave & Busters but it’s an ERC 20 token.

Jay Kang: So that’s what you were saying, you think that it’s like a separate debit card? Or like a metro card?

Aaron Lammer: I think it’s more like it’s on your phone and you just swipe it as you come in and you pay some cash and it loads up your phone.

Jay Kang: But he’s talking about physical cards right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah but that’s the now. It’s acclimating people to just making small Ethereum and bitcoin buys on the fly at a gas station as part of a normalized transaction.

Jay Kang: So months ago we talked about how … and I don’t know if this has happened or not, but how KakaoTalk, which was the most popular chat app in Korea, was going to build a crypto trading and crypto usage layer that was going to built off Bittrex, I think, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yes, that’s right.

Jay Kang: And so the idea was that at some point you, like in China that they do with WeChat, where no one uses cash, everyone just pays for everything with WeChat and perhaps you could do that with crypto.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I still think that that vision is probably the most practical and bullish vision of crypto where it’s app based. My friend just got back from China for a while and he said that it was difficult for him, he spent I think six months there, because everyone pays for everything through their phone through WeChat, but you need a Chinese bank account to set that up, right?

Aaron Lammer: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jay Kang: And so he didn’t have a Chinese bank account because he’s not Chinese and so he had to pay with everything in cash, which was like some Stone Age thing for them.

Aaron Lammer: Made him feel lame.

Jay Kang: Well not even lame, it’s just like you go into some place and they’re like, “You’re the first person in five days who’s tried to pay with cash.” So to get around that sort of stuff, it does make sense and then that way it actually could be truly global in the way that for example the American Express card is supposed to be truly global. So I don’t think that that’s wrong and I do think that Vitalik is right in the sense that the more people who get used to being able to use a swipe based currency type of thing is probably better. I just don’t really know how you start on-ramping people into this system in a way that is efficient or wouldn’t immediately destroyed by bad actors.

Aaron Lammer: If imagine all your money’s on your phone, it’s much easier to imagine that a bunch of your money’s in Ethereum or bitcoin or whatever, because who cares?

Jay Kang: Yeah it’s an underlying layer, that’s it.

Aaron Lammer: It’s an underlying layer, who cares? I think if you take the gift card metaphor a little further, let’s say it’s not really a physical card at some point, it’s like a hex code that you hand the cashier 50 bucks and your phone scans a hex, that pops the value onto your phone. Similarly, you’re on vacation in China, you need to take out some cash or pay for something, you display a hex on your phone and can transfer that value. So is it possible that we’re all zeroing around that Chinese cashless future and worrying too much about what currency it’s denominated in?

Jay Kang: Maybe but it does seem to actually … this is interesting in that it seems to bring up the growing divide, I think in crypto spaces, which is that if you ask somebody like a bitcoin maximalist about this, they’ll be like, “It doesn’t matter.” You know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: They’ll be like, “Who cares? The only thing that matters is moving the world onto the bitcoin standard and store value, it doesn’t matter if you can buy a cup of coffee with crypto.” What Vitalik seems to be saying is that we actually should worry about having the world be able to buy a cup of coffee using crypto. Now you’ve been mostly skeptical of that idea, I wonder how you feel about it now?

Aaron Lammer: Well I think if you look at it in this world view, it’s all kind of implied. Once all of the pipes connect to all of the pipes, the difference between buying or selling crypto, or withdrawing or putting into an ATM, or transferring that value for a good, should all just be in the background in the way that it doesn’t really matter … when you’re traveling in a foreign country and you buy something, you pretty much just swipe your credit card you’re like, “They’re going to convert this back into my-”

Jay Kang: “They’ll figure it out.” Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: “ … home currency and they’re going to withdraw it and figure it out.” That vision of Ethereum is the most convincing vision of Ethereum I can imagine.

Jay Kang: Yeah. It goes back to what we discussed about one of one use cases for crypto that had been interesting that was proven out which was people sending remittances back to their home country, like foreign workers. Instead of having to deal … Let’s say that right now, and this is actually I think true, that the economy for those sorts of remittances are done through a series of apps and that it is very hard to figure out which apps are real and which apps are scammy. Being scammed is a real problem, obviously, for people who use remittances, which is why Western Union is popular, despite massive fees because they at least can trust Western Union. If there was one central vendor that did these cards in a way that felt honest or felt trusted, or was big enough, then I think that that would probably be pretty good. But then you’re talking about another centralized authority within crypto.

Aaron Lammer: I have a counterpoint, great article I highly recommend. Jeff Mayshe is a writer, he wrote a story about the rigging of the McDonald’s Monopoly game.

Jay Kang: Oh yeah, right.

Aaron Lammer: There was a guy who was insider in the factory and he pulled all the Park Places and he was selling them to friends of relatives for like $200,000 for a million dollar winning ticket and basically he manipulated every Monopoly game for like 15 years while he was running the …

Jay Kang: I felt so cheated reading that article.

Aaron Lammer: So you’re a Monopoly game enthusiast?

Jay Kang: Oh yeah and it really-

Aaron Lammer: It took America by storm.

Jay Kang: It was one of those things that I really wish that I didn’t know, and did I really need to know that all those hours spent hoping that I got Park Place were in vain? It turns out, yes, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, so that’s probably why we can’t have gift cards and nice things is that the minute that they start getting any sort of traction, someone will massively manipulate them, create fake ones, and that’s true in the prepaid card markets too. Where people sell fake ones or sell you a thousand and the first two on the top work and all the other ones that don’t. This is the world, it’s a scam.

Jay Kang: Yeah and it is just very hard to figure out, given how hard it would be to double check that you actually had the bitcoin, or the Ethereum, how is this going to work? You and I would have a hard time figuring it out I think, much less somebody … whatever Vitalik is envisioning in terms of mainstream adoption. If you gave one of our moms a $5 bitcoin card, how long do you think it would take before your mom or my mom would be able to figure out whether or not it was real?

Aaron Lammer: I think there’s a very strong possibility that Vitalik as just hanging out with crypto [Jimmy Iovine 00:21:03] somewhere probably in Toronto and he got shelled prepaid cards hard and Vitalik was just like, “Okay, I’m going to tie this into the news cycle. What’s so big about bitcoin ETFs? I heard the future’s Ethereum gift cards.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, well they’re both from Toronto, I believe.

Aaron Lammer: They’re both early Ethereum project members.

Jay Kang: Yeah, didn’t Jimmy Iovine buy some $20 million apartment or something like that?

Aaron Lammer: Just to be clear, we’re talking about crypto Jimmy Iovine, not … Yes, he bought the most expensive real estate in Toronto, like the most expensive-

Jay Kang: Jesus.

Aaron Lammer: … apartment in Toronto.

Jay Kang: Well life is good for crypto Jimmy Iovine, he has a penguin backpack that-

Aaron Lammer: We wish him the best with his Jaxx Liberty prepaid cards, we would be happy to shell them on this show if he wants to sell some. We’re wide open to prepaid card shelling.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah I agree with that.

Aaron Lammer: None of this is investment advice of course. Speaking of things I would not necessarily advise as investment advice, did you see that Mike Novogratz’s weird loophole Canadian crypto fund launched?

Jay Kang: Also based in Canada.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s the wild west over there, it’s Deadwood over there in Canada.

Jay Kang: It’s a crypto bank as far as I can tell.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I don’t really understand why it gets the distinction of a bank, that feels like legalese. It seems like it operates like a fund, that it holds a lot of crypto.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so it’s called Galaxy Digital LP and it’s starting freighting soon on Toronto’s TSX Venture Exchange and Mike Novogratz, who is not really known for expressing much doubt in the world, seems to be a little bit bearish on his own project.

Aaron Lammer: Well the weird thing is, this is the second time he’s done this. When he was raising money for the project he was like, “Wait, I’m pausing fundraising, this is a terrible time to raise a crypto fund, you’ll all see in a few months.” Now it’s out and he’s kind of like negging it again.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so his quote to Bloomberg was, “‘If I knew what I know now, knew the crypto markets were going to swoon as much and it was going to take so long, I might have stayed private for another year or so and then gone public, but I don’t think it’s a mistake.’ Novogratz says he has no regrets and remains bullish as ever on blockchain’s potential to revolutionize finance but his eight month odyssey is a cautionary tale for others looking to use Canada’s capital markets as a short cut to going public.”

Aaron Lammer: So the basic backstory behind why he’s in Toronto, where … or I don’t know if that exchange is in Toronto-

Jay Kang: He’s in Toronto, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: … where it seems like all the cool crypto bros are ending up is, there’s some loophole in the way that Canadian exchanges work where you can reverse takeover a previously listed company which I believe is where the wonderful Galaxy Digital title comes from.

Jay Kang: Like it was a galaxy that swallowed another galaxy?

Aaron Lammer: No, I think it’s just a previously traded company called Galaxy digital that you basically can do a takeover and buy it out and then get their trading symbol, I believe.

Jay Kang: You should have bought a Daily Fantasy Sports company or something like that, Hockey Sports.

Aaron Lammer: Lord knows what Galaxy digital was, it sounds like a Chinese import/export company to me. Anyway, so he took it over and then they’re launching, this will be a publicly traded stock in Canada. To do this in the US takes minimum two years and I think they’re able to do it in six months in Canada, although he’s still complaining that it’s taken forever and he’s like, “Oh, now crypto’s down now that I’m finally here.”

Jay Kang: Well the fact that a lot of this business is going to Canada’s pretty interesting to me given Canada’s taxes, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I suppose that if you were a hedge fund billionaire like Mike Novogratz, you realize that those 18 months are important as opposed to doing it in two years in the Unites States. I kind of wonder what he thinks is going to happen in 18 months.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I don’t know.

Jay Kang: Is this like a, “We need to get out in six months, cash out in nine months, and then crypto will be over?”

Aaron Lammer: It’s weird because generally accepted crypto wisdom is such this Obi-Wan Kenobi, just hold out for ever, and Novogratz has made a big name for himself but he seems to be on the verge of panic selling at all times.

Jay Kang: Yeah, have I told you on the show about my meeting with Mike Novogratz?

Aaron Lammer: I don’t think you’ve ever told the story on the show.

Jay Kang: Okay, so I met him at the Ethereum-

Aaron Lammer: The CryptoKitties auction?

Jay Kang: The CryptoKitties auction, yeah and he was wearing a … I don’t know how to describe the material except that it looked very expensive. It was like a very lightweight satin.

Aaron Lammer: A sateen?

Jay Kang: It was not sateen, but we’ll call it sateen. He was wearing like a sateen Guns N’ Roses jacket-

Aaron Lammer: Whoa.

Jay Kang: … and white parachute pants.

Aaron Lammer: Chinese democracy tour?

Jay Kang: No it was from the early days, like the early 80s.

Aaron Lammer: Vintage.

Jay Kang: No, I don’t think it was vintage in the sense that he clearly had it made.

Aaron Lammer: Oh I see.

Jay Kang: For very expensive prices and he was standing next to one of his friends and they were just bidding up every single thing. He told me that … he lost the CryptoKitties auction, he didn’t actually buy it as people might know on the show that CryptoKitties went for somewhere over $100,000 and he told me as I was interviewing him for the show I used to work on that he had basically done it to drive up the price on the other guy who was some other crypto …

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, well didn’t he say ultimately, “Oh it’ll probably be worth more in few years.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, I don’t know if he still feels that way though. I would say that it actually gave me some insight into what true freedom looks like and I was like, okay, so true freedom is being so rich that you can show up in white parachute pants and a sateen Guns N’ Roses jacket and bid up some other guy and then that’s your day. That’s what you accomplished for that day and you’re happy about it.

Aaron Lammer: I feel like being truly rich is also being like, “Hey everyone, invest your money with me. Okay, I got the money, I don’t know if this is even really a good idea. Crypto seems like it might not come back, what do you guys think?”

Jay Kang: Yeah also, “This is not my fault, this is Canada’s fault.”

Aaron Lammer: I assume that once you’re that far in, you just play out the string and play out the hand. I think some of these guys also … I’m not sure, are also sometimes invested in big mining facilities also, so there’s all kinds of weird different exposures they have. Speaking of gigantic exposures in a very successful light, Bitmain, the maker of the Antminer-

Jay Kang: Yeah, Jihan Wu.

Aaron Lammer: Jihan Wu’s empire.

Jay Kang: Really, you got to say it, if we were going to do power rankings of people in crypto and Satoshi can’t be on the list because he’s off drinking pina coladas, writing the rest of his novel, where would you put Jihan Wu in the … like they have the Forbes power list [crosstalk 00:27:59].

Aaron Lammer: I think he’s a secret top ten player.

Jay Kang: Why would that be secret top ten? What does that mean that he’s not top three?

Aaron Lammer: Just because I think people have trouble reading Jihan Wu because a lot of people think he’s just in the pocket of the Chinese government or that he’s being controlled by other people and it’s unclear what the real ownership and power structure is.

Jay Kang: Outside of that, like-

Aaron Lammer: No, I think he’s definitely as influential as Vitalik or any of these other people. He basically controls a huge amount of the mining.

Jay Kang: Yeah and he could shut it off whenever.

Aaron Lammer: Shutting it off would be a pretty strange move but I would say that his power’s in that he’s taking most of the money. So Bitmain has a valuation of $14 billion or something like that, it’s making several billion dollars a year. It’s a much better business being in than any of the stuff, it’s even better business than making a coin. It was just printing money.

Jay Kang: Bitmain made a billion dollars in profit in three months. The first three months of 2018, while crypto prices were dying-

Aaron Lammer: Just mine even more.

Jay Kang: … doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter.

Aaron Lammer: And I would assume that they’ve done very well and that they held a lot of the wealth of the company in various times in bitcoin and have also seen incredible gains by just happening to be sitting on a lot of bitcoin during huge runs.

Jay Kang: Yeah, at some point somebody that I know gave me a WebCrawler address, not WebCrawler, whatever, like block crawler address and it was for Jihan’s bitcoin cash wallet.

Aaron Lammer: Wow, white hat hacker Kang in the house.

Jay Kang: Well it’s all public but it was like four hundred and something thousand bitcoin which at the time I think was somewhere around $2,000 or $1,600. Just imagine how much bitcoin he has. I really think that the rumors that people are spreading that Jihan had sold all his bitcoin for bitcoin cash are probably not true.

Aaron Lammer: I assume that all of those guys are doing weird fake out spreads between bitcoin cash and bitcoin are doing a lot of trading back and forth between them to optimize profit. They’re so in control of bitcoin cash also, that they’re in a very good position to mine, pump then dump bitcoin cash, re-buy bitcoin cash. These are the people who are the real winners of crypto, it’s not the Reddit dorks who bought $10,000 worth and are now millionaires, that is not the real winner. The real winner is Jihan Wu.

Jay Kang: That’s why I would argue that in my power rankings, I think he would probably me maybe number one. I just can’t think of somebody else who has more power and money in crypto than Jihan Wu. Mike Novogratz might have more money, period, but certainly not more leverage into crypto.

Aaron Lammer: If you’re as rich as Jihan Wu should be and based on his bitcoin cash wallet that we have no idea if it’s real, maybe he is, can you be that rich in China?

Jay Kang: Yeah of course, there are tons of people who are that rich in China.

Aaron Lammer: Would you be worried in Russia if you were to get that rich, you would be a target of someone like Putin at a certain point and you would have to be a cooperator or live in London?

Jay Kang: Not if you were a government friendly oligarch, right?

Aaron Lammer: Right. So I guess my question is, is Bitmain government friendly? Is China in favor of mass mining?

Jay Kang: Well apparently … it must be-

Aaron Lammer: I guess it must be.

Jay Kang: It must be because for China it’s a great thing where they’re like, we’re not exposing too much of our public to what might end up being a Ponzi scheme but we control this global Ponzi scheme.

Aaron Lammer: We’re bringing a bunch of … When countries want to improve their trade deficits, you want to just bring a bunch of other people’s currency into your country and if you just mine a bunch of bitcoin and then run some kind of crazy trader out to South Korea in which money is laundered back and forth and ultimately foreign currency is flowing into China, what’s not to like?

Jay Kang: Yeah, it’s a win win for Jihan and for China and its IPO is interesting because I would say of all the businesses that I think don’t need public funding, I think Bitmain might be it. But I guess they’re just going for the stars.

Aaron Lammer: At a certain point, why not? Why hold the risk yourself? Just sell it to investors.

Jay Kang: So I have a question then. You recently, I don’t know if we’re supposed to … but you recently put a reasonably sized investment in mining.

Aaron Lammer: Yes, I won’t say who with but some people I know who are involved, who have a small mining effort, I invested some money in there.

Jay Kang: Would you rather put your money in that small mining effort or would you rather just buy Jihan Wu’s Bitmain IPO?

Aaron Lammer: I think that there’s a few asterisks to put on the Bitmain IPO which is they’ve enjoyed this incredible competitive advantage, which is they have a monopoly on miners they produce, they make money on the ones they sell, they make money on the ones they mine with. I have heard things from various people who are involved in mining to the effect of there’s a new generation of miners coming that are going to blow all the previous generations out of the water, off the rack chip mining’s going to be dead and there’s going to be a lot more real competition for Bitmain miners.

Aaron Lammer: So I think that there is a reasonable investment hypothesis that the best times for Bitmain where they were the only player in the game, I think it’s a solid investment. I think once you start trading it as a public stock in China, I become less clear on exactly how your money is directly correlated to the mined coins and that kind of thing. Like anything else in crypto, it’s appealing to me to have a direct one to one relationship with mined coins, rather than own a more abstract stock.

Jay Kang: But you were saying that you would buy the bitcoin ETF though?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I vary back and forth there because I’m so incompetent and so badly trading. Literally every day I just wake up and my US dollar value is about the same or a little down and my bitcoin value is down. All I’m doing is just hemorrhaging bitcoin value slowly over time. That’s basically what you can assume that I’ll do in any [crosstalk 00:34:31].

Jay Kang: Are alts down right now?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, every time bitcoin dips down, alts dip down a little harder, nothing’s popping.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Not even those coins that are going to be added to Coinbase, no one gives a shit.

Jay Kang: I would say that if I am able to invest in the Bitmain IPO, I will invest.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, so would you be able to buy into that from a Fidelity account-

Jay Kang: I don’t know.

Aaron Lammer: … that kind of thing?

Jay Kang: I don’t know.

Aaron Lammer: Or do you need like a Chinese VPN to buy it?

Jay Kang: You can buy Alibaba.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you can buy Tencent.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so I don’t know why you wouldn’t be able to buy this but again, not financial advise, you and I have no idea what the answer to this question is.

Aaron Lammer: I think the product that I would actually buy the most would be some sort of actual ETF that combined a bunch of Chinese technology companies like some of these digital payment companies.

Jay Kang: Those exist though, I have some.

Aaron Lammer: Well I guess I would say that I would think that buying into Bitmain is sort of like a complimentary stock amongst all of those, because it’s not really a direct crypto investment because some of what they’re doing is retail, they’re just selling miners. It’s like investing in NVIDIA or something, which has been a great investment.

Jay Kang: Yeah, that was a good investment too.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. I don’t know, I’m pretty comfortable putting money anywhere in this world which is weird because crypto’s totally down, but it seemed like a good time to just ride all this stuff.

Jay Kang: Yeah I guess so. I think I would actually invest in them.

Aaron Lammer: Jay.

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: Recently this week, we were in a discussion about whether anyone gave a shit about crypto anymore and I referred to my traditional rubric of are people buying or selling crypto mining rigs on Craigslist. Basically, how many are for sale? In a bull market, you can expect very few are for sale and really inflated prices, when no one gives a shit about crypto, it’s like everyone’s trying to clean out their closet and they’re like, “Oh God, this fucking Ethereum mining rig.”

Jay Kang: You should go be an analyst at Mike Novogratz’s crypto bank.

Aaron Lammer: Yes, yes, this is actually a proprietary announcers method. If you want to get the white paper I issue quarterly, called the Craigslist Mining Review-

Jay Kang: And our coin.

Aaron Lammer: … you can of course email hi@cointalk.show. However, I found something in between all of the weird, poorly lit photographs of people’s janky mining rigs, there was someone who was marketing himself as a crypto consultant. Someone who would help you get set up in crypto.

Jay Kang: Okay, before that Aaron, I want to ask you something on a personal note.

Aaron Lammer: Sure. We always try to keep it personal here.

Jay Kang: Which is that I don’t know anyone else who spends any time on Craigslist except for you.

Aaron Lammer: I buy all of my audio equipment on Craigslist. If and when I buy a mining rig, I will be hunting for Craigslist bargains.

Jay Kang: So are you the last real Craigslist believer out there?

Aaron Lammer: No.

Jay Kang: How much of your stuff do you buy on Craigslist?

Aaron Lammer: All of the audio equipment is bought and sold on Craigslist, I think a lot … like computers and stuff. I don’t know, I think it’s a thriving marketplace.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: For used stuff. You’re never on Craigslist anymore?

Jay Kang: I have started to buy dumb photography equipment.

Aaron Lammer: That’s exactly the kind of thing that … when you asked what’s still happening on Craigslist? People are still buying used photography equipment.

Jay Kang: And buying lenses.

Aaron Lammer: But apparently they’re also offering cryptocurrency consulting, so I’m going to read you a little bit from this ad. “Have you been interested in the emergence of cryptocurrency markets? Want to get invested but do not know where to start? With the recent dip in both the stock market and crypto markets, now is the time to invest in knowledge and experience. I’ve been involved in crypto space since 2012 and can show you how to put your money to work investing in the crypto revolution.”

Jay Kang: Great.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so these are the things that he advertises that he can help out with. Technical support, buying bitcoin, setting up a wallet, sending transactions, security advice, private keys, hardware wallet set up, multisig wallets, market heuristics, valuation methods, historical overview and the current landscape. So, what I propose Jay, we ourselves are in need of consulting.

Jay Kang: Oh for sure. Your bitcoin value goes down every morning and I’m too scared to enter the markets.

Aaron Lammer: I would say that we have really not even taken our own advice regarding security, wallets, et cetera, so I say that we call this consultant and ask him the basic questions and get some honest to goodness simple advice.

Speaker 3: (singing)

Jay Kang: Let’s do it.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. Hey, if I may pause things here for a minute to give a word from our sponsor Techmeme. So for a significant portion of my life, I would keep techmeme.com open in my browser, refresh it a couple times every day, sometimes a couple items every hour to find out what tech stories I had missed. I wish during that whole period, that they had had the Techmeme Ride Home podcast which is bit like NPR’s Marketplace, but for tech news, all of the headlines, context and conversation, tweets, everything.

Aaron Lammer: They condense it into a distilled 15, 20 minute podcast Monday through Friday, comes out around 5.00 pm Eastern each afternoon. The host is Brain McCullough, who also hosts the Internet History podcast. I really recommend it if you want to keep up with the same kind of stuff we talk about on this show but about the broader tech world. You can find it in your podcast app, Techmeme Ride Home. You’ll be helping support this show and you will be keeping up to date with all the important stories and not wasting your life refreshing a browser on your phone.

Speaker 3: (singing).

Aaron Lammer: Thank you very much to Techmeme for their sponsorship of this show, here is the show. Hey Zach, this is Aaron and Jay from the podcast Coin Talk.

Zach: Hey, how’s it going guys?

Aaron Lammer: So Zach, we saw your ad and part of the premise of this podcast is that Jay and I are both fairly new to crypto and fairly terrible at trading and just about everything else.

Jay Kang: Yeah, we like to think about crypto a lot, but we are both bad at it and we generally rely on one another and so it is two people literally leading each other into the fog.

Zach: Gotcha, yeah. Yeah, trading is hard even for experienced people I think. It’s not for everybody I don’t think.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so we have a few questions for you, maybe we can ask you questions as if we’re total newbie simpletons, as we basically are, and you can give some of the advice that you might give to someone in one of your consulting sessions, without of course giving up the crown jewels, which you’ll have to set up a private training session with Zach to really understand.

Zach: Okay.

Jay Kang: The first thing I wanted to hear about from you is, so you’ve been involved in crypto since 2012, how did you get interested in the first place?

Zach: Yeah I think I first heard about it around 2011. Some friends of mine were buying bitcoin and using it to buy things online and I think there as an NPR story around then, I forget exactly when the NPR story was but that’s when I first heard about it and it wasn’t until 2012 when I really started to get interested and that’s also around the time where I started learning more about finance and what exactly happened in 2008, when I was fairly young then. I knew it happened, I didn’t know exactly what happened. That kind of made me more interested in bitcoin and then I started falling down the rabbit hole in 2012, set up the bitcoin core wallet and it was still kind of hard to actually buy stock but when I eventually did, you had to use Dwolla, go through Mt. Gox and all that stuff.

Jay Kang: I have a question for you, professionally. When people come to you, what level are they generally at and what sorts of questions do they have and why are they interested in getting in this space? If you were to make a, “My customer’s X,” and you were to explain in two sentences, what would you say?

Zach: My customers usually have at least a little bit of experience with Coinbase, or they’ve started to dip their toes in but they’ve become overwhelmed by all the implications of … I’ve had people freaking out about taxes or security or whatever, they just hit this point where they just get overwhelmed with the vastness of the space and having seen it evolve for six years now, I just realized oh, I can actually explain these things to people. I also do tutoring for physics and math so I can help people learn new things so that’s also kind of why I started doing this.

Aaron Lammer: So when you come across people now and they’re like, “I want to buy bitcoin, I want to make my first bitcoin purchase.” What is your number one advice? Are you a Coinbase person? Gemini?

Zach: I will usually tell them to go through Coinbase, just because it’s easy and a lot of the people asking that don’t have a lot of technical expertise. If they are a little bit more computer literate, I’ll say use Coinbase Pro to avoid the fees, they charge you more for using Coinbase.

Aaron Lammer: It’s funny, I think we end up criticizing Coinbase a lot on this show, but I would still probably recommend it to someone without hesitation. Jay?

Jay Kang: Yeah, what about for people who are a little bit further along. I’ve actually wondered this, which is that, for me when I think about it as a resident of the United States who wants to do things legally, are there alternatives from Gemini and Coinbase or other exchanges like Kraken, I guess for a while was allowing you to onboard fiat currency through there. If you were consulting with me and Aaron who are dumb but also able to do certain things in crypto, is there another option that you would suggest?

Zach: A lot of the laws are kind of gray area for the US and I’m based in New York so-

Jay Kang: You’d be like, “Meet on the corner of 16th and Broadway and I’ll have a-”

Aaron Lammer: Meet me in the parking lot of the McDonald’s at the Meeker Morgan exit. Pull up alongside, turn your brights on.

Zach: Yeah, people have been arrested for doing that. So if someone’s worried about that, I definitely wouldn’t even recommend local bitcoins, even though I think it’s great that people can do that, it’s just … it’s risky.

Aaron Lammer: So among the people who come to you for advice, are most people willing to sync up a bank account, send in their drivers license, go through the know-your-customer kinds of hoops?

Zach: I haven’t had anyone who’s not been willing to do that. Normally when they come to me … I had a lot of people that could buy bitcoin through Coinbase but then they were like, “I want to buy this random altcoin that I heard about and how do I do that now?” You know?

Aaron Lammer: Right.

Zach: So I try not to give them too much financial advice and I’ll tell them what I know about it and try to keep it more objective. Usually they’re dead set on buying whatever altcoin and they want to figure out how.

Aaron Lammer: So you’ll tell them about Cryptopia, but you won’t actually sign them up for Cryptopia?

Zach: Right, right. A lot of people were just dying to get into Bittrex when they weren’t accepting new people.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, we almost sold our accounts on the show, we should have sold our accounts high.

Zach: Yeah, I even thought about it-

Jay Kang: Something that you put in your ad that was actually interesting to Aaron and I which was that you have identified this as a good time for people to get into crypto because it is a bear market and that there’s been sort of a dip, right?

Zach: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jay Kang: Why do you think this is a good time? Because I will say, as somebody who used to have a certain percentage of my net value in crypto, and now have almost zero percent in net value, I’m still scared to invest in this market. Why do you think that’s a good market?

Aaron Lammer: Jay is our resident quasi no-coiner pulling it out of the muck and I’m our resident permabull so please defend me.

Jay Kang: Why should Aaron keep his money in crypto or put more money into crypto?

Zach: Well as a caveat, I should say I haven’t updated my ad in a while, not that my views have really changed, but maybe I should change it with the [crosstalk 00:47:12].

Jay Kang: Oh that’s from the 2013 bear market.

Zach: No I just put it up maybe when it was around 6,000 or so.

Aaron Lammer: To be fair, if you posted it then, it was a good time to buy bitcoin.

Zach: Right, right.

Jay Kang: Yeah, so why is this a good time to buy bitcoin? Or to enter crypto?

Zach: So I experienced two … well this is my third big bubble. I got in, never really expected it to … I didn’t put a ton of money in at the time, I didn’t expect it to really blow up like it did. When it hit 266, I think it was in 2013, that really caught me off guard and I had sold some on the way up and after that, that correction only went down to like … First it went down to $60, $50, $60 and then it stayed around $100 for a really long time. So that kind of made me mad at the time. It just taught me how hard it is to time this market. I’m more of a long term investor than a trader, although obviously taking profit is never a bad idea.

Jay Kang: Do you think we’re in that time right now? Hovering around 8,000? 6,000 to 8,000 time?

Zach: What scares me is the volatility right now. Usually, in most of the other bubbles, it just flattened out for months and then from there, it kind of developed a floor. So that does concern me that it’s still very volatile but there’s no reason it has to retrace 90% or 80%.

Aaron Lammer: Assuming that you stay in the game, which I am, unlike Jay, I think we’ve gotten kind of familiar with the best practices around hardware wallets and storing your private keys on a slip of paper, you hide it, put in a bank vault et cetera, but I’ll admit that my actual OPSEC is quite different than my knowledge of my idealized OPSEC. There’s a part of me that is just kind of like, I don’t know, I’m used to using these online services, I use Gmail not ProtonMail, I just want to leave this bitcoin in my Coinbase account and I’m going to trust that and also it’ll be a lot easier to cash in and out if I ever want to do it that way. How dumb would you say I am on a scale of one to 10?

Zach: It depends on how much money you are leaving in Coinbase.

Aaron Lammer: We’re talking about single digits bitcoin.

Zach: Like full bitcoin? Or single-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: So anywhere up to like $90,000.

Aaron Lammer: Somewhere between $80,000 and $10,000 on Coinbase.

Zach: The thing about Coinbase obviously seeing the fallout of Mt. Gox, made me very hesitant to keep anything on a chain. Now Coinbase is insured technically, but I think that’s only for fiat deposits. I might be wrong but I haven’t seen any indication that they insure bitcoin. So I don’t know, I don’t think that’s a good idea to leave that much on [crosstalk 00:50:18].

Jay Kang: Well what would be the better alternative then? Because between Aaron and I, I think we own the vast majority of dongle wallets, like Trezor and Ledger.

Aaron Lammer: I have a Ledger.

Jay Kang: I will say, as somebody who has my small amount of bitcoins left on one of those things, it doesn’t necessarily seem like a great alternative either because I read about these scams where they have Google Chrome pop ups that make you enter all your information into them that look exactly like the other ones. Also sometimes I look at the piece of hardware, I’m like, this is a little piece of shit. Having this amount of money invested in this thing, what happens if the company goes belly up or the founders disappear with a large amount of money? I’m shit out of luck then. Would you suggest a hardware wallet? Because I know that about a year ago, that was the conventional wisdom.

Zach: Yeah, I still suggest a hardware wallet, I like Ledger. They’re using the same protocol as a lot of other wallets. I think even the Ledger software is open sourced, I don’t think Trezor is. So if they do go belly up, like you were saying, you can use your 15 word, or I think it’s 24 words for Ledger, seed phrase to get your wallet back up and running on any other service. So I wouldn’t worry too much about that. As far as the viruses and malware, yeah you still have to be careful, it’s not like-

Aaron Lammer: Don’t get phished Jay.

Jay Kang: I almost certainly won’t get phished.

Aaron Lammer: Here’s my professional advice, don’t fall for a phishing scam.

Jay Kang: Says the guy with somewhere between $10,000 and $90,000 on Coinbase. So far it seems like Aaron and I are not doing well by your consulting standards, because-

Aaron Lammer: It’s not a competition. Also, I have a question about altcoin tradings. You said some of your clients want to get involved in altcoin trading and I’ve been involved in some very poor altcoin trading, which has diminished my bitcoin value. Clearly the proper thing would be to just stop trading altcoin, but for people who do want to trade altcoins, what toe-dippy advice do you give people?

Zach: Let’s see, I have people ask about Icon, about … I’m not a huge fan of altcoins honestly, I’ve seen the first crop of altcoins, most of them disappeared. I don’t think it’ll be quite so bad this time around and if people really have a conviction about a certain altcoin, like this guy did with Icon, I can’t say-

Jay Kang: What is Icon? Is that Carl Icahn’s …

Aaron Lammer: No.

Jay Kang: Is that Carl Icahn’s-

Aaron Lammer: It’s like ICX.

Jay Kang: Oh, I see.

Zach: Yeah it’s supposed to be the Korean Ethereum or something.

Jay Kang: Oh yeah, yeah, that’s the one that Carl Icahn-

Aaron Lammer: Jay come on, it’s the Korean Ethereum.

Zach: So I just told them to be careful and to keep … he’s like, “Oh they’re going to … “ there’s some big news coming out soon about and he’s been reading up about it and he’s very excited and I just told him to be careful because you never know, it could drop 90%, or it could go up 10,000% who knows? I’m glad I told him, “Be careful,” so he can’t come back and blame me because I think when he bought it, it was around $10. I don’t know what it is now but it lost a lot.

Aaron Lammer: I feel like if we had a generic term for failed altcoin, we could just call them all Korean Ethereums.

Zach: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: That’s like a generalized baseline description of so many things that I’ve heard described.

Jay Kang: Yeah, the lame country’s Ethereum.

Zach: Yeah, I’m just waiting for the North Korean Ethereum.

Jay Kang: There was Thailand Ethereum for a while.

Aaron Lammer: Of course Russian Ethereum.

Jay Kang: Russian Ethereum.

Aaron Lammer: Big one.

Jay Kang: Marshall Island’s Ethereum.

Aaron Lammer: What was the Chinese Ethereum?

Jay Kang: Neo.

Aaron Lammer: Neo is the Chinese Ethereum.

Zach: Oh Neo, right, yeah.

Jay Kang: Aaron and I are clients right now, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And we are individual investors with different profiles and different risk profiles. What would you tell Aaron to do? If you were going to suggest a certain mix of altcoins and Ethereum and bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: Let’s say I’m holding a few alts and some bitcoin and I’m hoping over the next few years to double my money.

Zach: To double your money? Well honestly I’m maybe a softcore bitcoin maximalist, I guess.

Aaron Lammer: We identify as crypto moderate, so you’re in a safe place here.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Zach: Okay, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Not with the bitcoin maximalist, but just with the general softcore everything.

Jay Kang: Yeah, we’re softcore, I can’t think of one thing Aaron and I are hardcore about.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, nothing.

Zach: It’s important I think to be a bit flexible, because honestly, being so into bitcoin for so long, I missed a lot of the big alt pump and some people who were just getting in who were a bit more open minded either made or lost a lot of money, it’s a double edged sword.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah you must have seen Ethereum swim by you and people were like, “Buy Ethereum at $1, buy Ethereum at $5, buy it at $20.” You must have declined that opportunity many times.

Zach: Oh yeah and it was right there in front of me, it’s the craziest thing.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah you had bitcoin at that point so you had the tools to buy Ethereum.

Zach: Yeah, and I watched the Dow hack happen and I thought, “Well that’s just awful, how can … this is not ready for people to be investing this much money in and then there it goes.”

Aaron Lammer: So have you ever wavered in your bitcoin maximalism, or are you pretty firmly in that camp? Because I think we are both ultimately have kind of landed on bitcoin maximalism but I have certainly flirted with some Monero beliefs and I think we’re all still interested enough in the Ethereum universe that I like to hold a certain sliver of my portfolio in Ethereum.

Zach: Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that Monero and Ethereum are doing, which hopefully one day bitcoin will be able to do, but it’s not yet. So I can certainly understand why people have really short investment term about these coins and I even own some Monero and Ethereum just because, you never know. You can’t project your own ideas on the market and say the market’s going to … everyone’s going to believe what I believe, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Zach: In the hopes that they do, but that’s just not the case. Look at how many people were excited about Ripple, and I couldn’t figure out why, it just didn’t really-

Jay Kang: It seems like you’re aligned with our general thoughts. You might also be a crypto moderate.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And so you’re the third.

Zach: Maybe, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, our final question. Your prediction, bitcoin January 1st, 2019.

Zach: Let’s see, January 1st, 2019.

Aaron Lammer: Actual prediction and pie in the sky fantasy.

Jay Kang: Yeah, we ask everyone this.

Aaron Lammer: This is what we like to know is what you really think if you were gambling and in your weird dream you woke up from and your phone was on fire, what is bitcoin at that point?

Zach: Okay, actual prediction, let’s say it flat lines around 7,000. Pie in the sky prediction, I’d like to see it hit the next Fibonacci number so I’ll go with the 33K by January.

Aaron Lammer: 33K.

Jay Kang: Wow.

Aaron Lammer: I like it. Yeah, ring the bell.

Jay Kang: Well, thank you for coming on the show.

Aaron Lammer: Do you have website or any way people can find you?

Zach: Yeah, I started a website nycryptoconsulting.com.

Aaron Lammer: Check that out people if you want to get Zach to review your strategy with you. You’ll probably need it after you’ve been listening to this show. It’s like going to a chiropractor. Go to Zach, get yourself realigned, it’s 100 bucks for a two hour intro sessions, is that what it is?

Zach: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Then 60 bucks an hour after. It’s probably, for a lot of people, this is worth it. If I had talked to you, I wouldn’t have fat fingered two Monero, which are lost forever.

Zach: Yeah, you know it helps.

Jay Kang: Thanks Zach.

Aaron Lammer: All right, thanks Zach.

Zach: All right, thanks a lot guys.