COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press “Listen to the story” above to play the episode or read the transcript below. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)

Show Notes (63 minutes)


Announcer: This episode of Coin Talk was recorded Wednesday, January 10th at 4 pm Eastern Standard Time. The Bitcoin Price Index was $14,476.

Aaron Lammer: Hello. Welcome to Coin Talk. Hey Jay.

Jay Kang: Yo.

Aaron Lammer: Slightly inauspicious day to kick this podcast off. Market kind of dropping its pants a little bit.

Jay Kang: Yeah, well look, we can’t just do podcasts when the market goes up, because we’d have nothing to talk about.

Aaron Lammer: I agree with that. You’re taking the New York sports talk radio analogy there?

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah. Like if the Jets and the Mets are good, then what is Francesa going to talk about?

Aaron Lammer: I agree with this. I also feel like when the emphasis is taken off of Bitcoin going to the moon, we start just seeing the weirder and weirder stuff that’s more fun to talk about.

Jay Kang: Yeah. We scratch a little bit more because people aren’t consumed by excitement and greed all the time. It seems like there actually is a lot of weird stuff shaking out right now.

Aaron Lammer: Well, so CES is happening in Las Vegas right now?

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: And the first I heard of this was that Kodak was issuing a mining rig.

Jay Kang: Yeah, and people were, in true crypto form, there were cellphone photos taken of … It’s kind of amazing that, basically, cellphone cameras are just cameras now, but the only place where they look like cellphone cameras where the lighting’s all messed up and there’s distortion is in the crypto world. But there were photos of a mining rig that Kodak had “released” or was showing people at CES.

Aaron Lammer: I’m going to give my unvarnished, first opinion upon seeing the Kodak mining rig, which is it looks like someone bought a mining rig from Bitmain, or a brandless Hong Kong manufacturer and then put a Kodak logo on the side. There’s nothing distinctive about its design at all. It looks exactly like every mining rig you’ve ever seen.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Even the Kodak logo does not look like it was well applied on there.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you can still see them ironing them on before taking the mine out to the floor. So, I am correct, then, that this is not really a Kodak venture. This is somebody who’s licensed the Kodak name?

Jay Kang: Yeah, I looked into this a little bit. It seems like what Kodak has done, or some poor scion, I guess that’s how I think about it in my head, that somebody is signing deals that they don’t really know what it means. Somebody has licensed out two crypto projects at Kodak. The first is this mining system that will be sort of a timeshare in a mining rig. Kodak says that it’s going to use some of its space in its Rochester headquarters to store mining rigs. The second one is Kodakcoin, which as far as I can tell is a blockchain based technology that photographers and other creative image people can use to track rights on the block-chain.

Aaron Lammer: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Is the Kodak miner for mining Kodakcoin, or are they just making a general purpose miner and also happen to be having a digital rights coin?

Jay Kang: Kodak miner is to mine Bitcoin. It is a completely different company that has licensed out the name. I believe it’s mostly like an LED company or something like that. Then, a sort of media company that is called — let me look this up — it is called WENN, which is Worldwide Entertain … News Network, I think. WENN, which is famous for paparazzi photos.

Aaron Lammer: Jay, as a journalist, you of course are familiar with the Worldwide Entertainment Network.

Jay Kang: Well, they have had one hit, which is that many years ago, because they do specialize in paparazzi photos, they were the ones who did the Britney Spears getting out of the car crash photos.

Aaron Lammer: Oh, wow.

Jay Kang: So they specialize in-

Aaron Lammer: Don’t call them a one-hit wonder.

Jay Kang: They seem to specialize in getting out of the cab crotch-shots for celebrities. So, if you do one of those and it ends up everywhere on the internet, you and I as media people-

Aaron Lammer: We’ve both had photos of that in life taken of both of us.

Jay Kang: Sure, but we also have had some interaction, or at least some knowledge that sometimes actually tracking down rights of photos can be difficult for photographers.

Aaron Lammer: Sure.

Jay Kang: So this one maybe, actually has some sort of use case, but as much as anything else.

Aaron Lammer: Let’s pull the brakes here slightly. The idea of selling digital rights of photos makes sense. And, say, creating a digital tool that scans the internet for photos that potentially you own the license of, and ask for money, that stuff is certainly happening. You see that even on YouTube with songs. Making the jump to, “This should happen on the blockchain and it should be with a coin, and that coin should be branded the same as someone who used to make shakable instant film,” you’re just asking people to make so many leaps. I don’t understand how anyone is supposed to get from point A to point B.

Jay Kang: Look, I agree with you. The only thing that’ll say is that you and I talk about this quite a bit, which is that like, “Can we imagine a world in which this product is useful?” I would say that the only thing I will say in Kodakcoins defense is that, as a former web editor who sometimes had to track down photo rights … Honestly I don’t know what the coin would do, but if there was a blockchain based, elegant, fast solution for all of this that allowed photographers to get some money directly who might be getting ripped off in other places, sure that might be a good idea. Is it a multi-billion dollar idea or is it something that should triple … Like, so, today, Kodak’s stock price tripled. Is that a type of thing that should allow a stock price or company valuation, which is one of the storied, great companies in American history to triple? No, it’s absurd.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I mean, I guess you could say the company’s more valuable if so many people want to license its name, but-

Jay Kang: But, two people. Two people.

Aaron Lammer: Two people. But if the company’s now three times as valuable, I just don’t see the incentive for them to actually do any of this stuff. Okay, maybe the coin is going to be traded as a shitcoin on some shit exchange, but, the miner, is just transparently a scam. The miner is selling two years of rights on the miner, and they’re quoting, basically, how much money you would make if the difficulty did not go up at all. Which, we know factually, the difficulty will go up. So, this is literally the same tactic that people use to sell timeshares. It’s misleading people.

Jay Kang: It’s a timeshare scam. It’s exactly a timeshare scam. And, look, the two questions that I have, which if someone works at Kodak and wants to get in touch with us, it’s hi@cointalk.show

Aaron Lammer: They should send us one of these miners.

Jay Kang: Please let us know, because I just want to know who is making these decisions. Kodak, look, obviously times are tough for Kodak and have been for many years. Kodak is one of the great American products and one of the great American companies.

Aaron Lammer: They don’t even make Kodak film anymore, Fujifilm makes it now.

Jay Kang: Sure, for example. Yes, that is true. But someone at Kodak, I don’t know, like Charles Kodak IV who does not have the entrepreneurial spirit that his great-

Aaron Lammer: Lord Ambrose Kodak.

Jay Kang: … that his great-grandfather had is just selling his name off for anything based on blockchain. I guess my question out of it is, look, there are a lot of companies that are hurting. Is this the sort of thing where you are just trying to catch a wave and just trying to jab your stock prices so perhaps you can sell out? Is this a thing that’s going to keep happening?

Aaron Lammer: I’d have to say until it stops happening that it will keep happening, until it fails for someone. I mean, we already had that iced tea company that pivoted to the blockchain. Long Island-

Jay Kang: Oh yeah, Long Island Iced Tea.

Aaron Lammer: Long Island Iced Tea. So, I mean, to give a little credit to the crypto markets, I feel like people who are interested in the stock market will sometimes look down their nose at the utter stupidity of crypto buyers and how they will buy anything based on vapor alone. I think we’re seeing that people are pretty willing to buy those as publicly traded stocks as well.

Jay Kang: Do you really think people were buying … Well, I guess somebody needed to buy-

Aaron Lammer: Who bid Kodak up three times? Do you think that’s crypto audiences moving over and being like, “Now that I’m getting into the stock market I’ll take Long Island Iced Tea Company and Kodak?”

Jay Kang: I need a more stable portfolio, so this is my crypto E-Trade account.

Jay Kang: It’s strange that you bring up this idea that the crypto audience might be getting slightly smarter, or perhaps the stock market audience is also getting somewhat dumb.

Aaron Lammer: Maybe they’re meeting somewhere in the dumb middle.

Jay Kang: I think that we should talk about the coin that everyone is talking about within this context, which is Dentacoin (DCN).

Aaron Lammer: Everyone’s talking about it.

Jay Kang: It really is. I feel like Dentacoin, in a world of scams, I almost feel bad for it because it gets singled out so much.

Aaron Lammer: I picture you, like on the train coming here, approaching a group of people and being like, “Excuse me. I couldn’t help but notice. Were you talking about Dentacoin?”

Jay Kang: Everyone’s talking about the Michael Wolff book and Dentacoin, if you look at my Twitter feed.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so everyone, specifically like the crypto nerds that Jay follows is talking about Dentacoin. What is Dentacoin and why are they talking about it.

Jay Kang: According to its website-

Aaron Lammer: Allegedly.

Jay Kang: “Dentacoin is the first blockchain concept designed for the global dental industry. The Dentacoin ERC20 token is configured to be used globally by all individuals. Dentacoin aims at improving dental care worldwide and making it affordable through crowd power. Numerous blockchain-based tools will be developed and implemented.” That last sentence is my favorite part. Be like, “Look. Blockchain stuff and global dentistry.”

Aaron Lammer: When they said that-

Jay Kang: And actually at the end, more blockchain shit.

Aaron Lammer: When they said that blockchain implements would be developed, I was picturing one of those picks that you put in your teeth, but it’s connected directly to the blockchain.

Jay Kang: Look the reason why people are mad about this is because it has a billion dollar “valuation.” It seems to be a token that is used so that people in different countries can crowdsource their buying power together and drive down the price of dental work, or something like that. I have no idea. If you read … And look, this is not me speaking out of ignorance. I don’t think anyone really understands what the concept is.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, well let’s not single out Dentacoin, and let’s just say that most ERC20, which are tokens that are issued on the Ethereum platform that have a utility where you’re supposed to use the token to achieve something, it’s not like Dentacoin is any more ridiculous than, let’s say, the average ERC20 utility token.

Jay Kang: No. I mean, look, that’s really just sort of like … The Dentacoin stats here, I just want to read them out. And I want-

Aaron Lammer: Okay, read them out.

Jay Kang: I want you to react to them.

Aaron Lammer: I’ll react in real time, with sounds effects.

Jay Kang: It’s worth $1.3 billion, market cap.

Aaron Lammer: Wow.

Jay Kang: Okay. All right. There are 8 trillion Dentacoins, right now. Or, possible. And 325 billion in circulating supply. The way that they arrive at their market cap is that a Dentacoin costs .4 cents, so it’s like 40% of a penny, and if you multiply that by the total number of Dentacoins, then you arrive at 1.3 billion. The tokenization of everything, is a world in which I think none of us actually want to live. Right, would you want to live in a world in which you have to have a separate token to pay for dental work?

Aaron Lammer: Probably not, but I could see going through-

Jay Kang: How are not … What is the probably from? It’s terrible. Oh, wait. “I can’t get gas on my way to go to the dentist, because I remembered my Dentacoin but I did not remember my gas coin.” That’s sounds terrible.

Aaron Lammer: I think that I’m already engaged in insurance-like experiences around things like dentistry and health where I’m buying into some larger contract. So, if I could buy into that contract as some sort of autonomous Ethereum being, why not?

Jay Kang: Oh my God. All right, so speaking of-

Aaron Lammer: Speaking of autonomous Ethereum beings.

Jay Kang: Let’s talk a little bit about Toshi.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. Well you can’t really talk about Toshi without talking about Brian Armstrong. So, Brian Armstrong is the co-founder of Coinbase. Coinbase, probably the most influential American company in the crypto space.

Jay Kang: I think undeniably.

Aaron Lammer: They’ve caught flak at various junctures in the last few months for a variety of things. I would say the most glaring one being, probably, the role out of Bitcoin Cash on Coinbase, and feelings that the messaging, transparency and-

Jay Kang: Accusations of insider trading.

Aaron Lammer: … accusations of insider trading. In a very San Francisco fashion, Brian Armstrong has a side project that he looks to take over the world with, that is built … I don’t know if it’s built within Coinbase or is a separate project.

Jay Kang: I think separate project.

Aaron Lammer: Separate project, and that project is called Toshi. And much as Brian Armstrong has been criticized for his preference of Ethereum over Bitcoin, which is something that he had stated before that he was holding more Ethereum than Bitcoin, Toshi is very much imagining the universe of the autonomous Ethereum being.

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: You downloaded Toshi before I did. What was your experience like?

Jay Kang: Well, I downloaded it. I signed in. There was like a row of power users that were listed on there. One of them was Laura Shin, who we speak to from time to time.

Aaron Lammer: Shouts to Laura Shin

Jay Kang: The reporter at Forbes, so I sent her a message and said, “Hello. Let’s chat.”

Aaron Lammer: “Hello autonomous Ethereum being.”

Jay Kang: The reason why I signed up is that Brian Armstrong had been saying that there was a version of Twitter that they had made on Ethereum.

Aaron Lammer: That’s Leroy, right?

Jay Kang: Yeah, Leeroy. So, I tried to sign up for Leeroy, which is supposed to be free, but I could not because there is a transaction fee for a $0 Ethereum purchase, apparently.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, man, you got to pay the gas, man.

Jay Kang: Leroy is free. It costs 0.0 Eth. But you have to pay the transaction fee for 0.0 Eth to sign up. I certainly was not going to load Ethereum onto Toshi to pay the gas on a $0 transaction. So what I did was I screen shotted the transaction thing. We’ll put it up in our show notes. I think it’s pretty fun. Then I never looked at Toshi again.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. So, I gave Toshi a bit more of a chance, at least intellectually. I looked at how Brian Armstrong describes Toshi, it’s on Medium, actually, our partner, Medium, on the Toshi blog. He says “it’s a Dapp browser,” which is a place to browse decentralized apps built on the Ethereum network. Lke CryptoKitties and Leroy would be an example. “It’s a mobile Ethereum wallet.” And “It’s an identity and reputation system.” Kind of a lot to bite off, there.

Jay Kang: What is an identity system? I think, before we go, we should explain to the listeners that this is an app you download onto your iPhone-

Aaron Lammer: Your iPhone or your Android, yes.

Jay Kang: Then when you open it, it essentially becomes another phone, where there are other apps within the app.

Aaron Lammer: The closest I can draw is when they came out with that Facebook phone that was an Android variant, and your whole phone was Facebook. It’s imagining that these de-centralized apps become the App Store on your phone. But there is that weird level there, which is this is not a crypto phone. You are nesting yourself deeper and deeper into this Ethereum universe. I think that’s the thematic thing that I notice about it, which is, it keeps demanding more and more of you to see this vision.

Aaron Lammer: So he (Armstrong) says, “The user receives their first Ethereum from a friend, charity, or job. They write down a twelve word phrase that only they know. Number two, over that time, the value of that wealth will go up. Number three, they start to complete small tasks within the app-

Jay Kang: Wait, wait, wait. Why number two? What is the basis of that?

Aaron Lammer: Because Ethereum keeps being worth more… because that’s part of the worldview.

Jay Kang: Oh, because Ethereum can only go up.

Aaron Lammer: Only go up.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. “They start to complete small tasks within the app to earn small sums, like answering questions, labeling photos, or translating texts. They now have a small way to earn money, a job, even if it is menial to start.”

Jay Kang: Okay, so I have a question here.

Aaron Lammer: So, it’s like Mechanical Turk, you make yourself into a Mechanical Turk.

Jay Kang: Who’s paying me to answer these question?

Aaron Lammer: It’s like Mechanical Turk. There’s a buyers and seller’s market for services that are done through Ethereum.

Jay Kang: So it’s like Quora but the person who asks the question has to pay for the answer?

Aaron Lammer: Well, it’s not necessarily an answer. I might be like, “Transcribe this podcast, .01 Ethereum.”

Jay Kang: Yes, but those aren’t the examples he’s using. He said, “All you have to do is answer a question.”

Aaron Lammer: No, he says, “Answering questions, labeling photos, translating texts.”

Jay Kang: Labeling photos. Okay, so you’re starting-

Aaron Lammer: Content moderation.

Jay Kang: You’re starting out at the bottom and you’re being paid Ethereum and the reason-

Aaron Lammer: You’re doing content moderation for Ethereum.

Jay Kang: Okay. And the reason why this is always going to work is because even if you send a small amount of Ethereum at the beginning, “Because,” according to Brian Armstrong, “It is physically impossible for the price of Ethereum to go down. Since it only goes up, obviously any amount of Ethereum you get at an earlier date will be worth more at a later date.”

Aaron Lammer: Correct. “They’re incentivized by small payouts from a private charity to complete some online classes. Perhaps watching a Khan Academy video academy and taking a short test to demonstrate retention. With education and credentialing attached to their profile, their employability increases.”

Aaron Lammer: One of the really weird things about this piece of writing is the first piece is clearly aimed at cryptocurrency enthusiasts. It says, “There hasn’t been an easy way to store and spend your own Ethereum on mobile to date.” Okay, you got me. I’m with you. Then, like all of a sudden it just takes this hard right, and it’s like, “You’re a peasant. You need an education. You’re going to need to build up some credibility with employers.”

Jay Kang: It’s very video gamey, in like the Sims kind of way-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you got to build up your level.

Jay Kang: … where the whole world starts at, like Civilization or something like that, where you’re just like … Or even like StarCraft, where you start out and you’re a fucking miner who’s like fucking going in and mining mana and-

Aaron Lammer: You’re a serf.

Jay Kang: That’s what it sounds like.

Aaron Lammer: I’m here to be a Sumokoin (SUMO) Baron, not a Sumokoin serf.

Jay Kang: All right, so let’s keep going.

Aaron Lammer: But there’s one final thing. So you asked, “Well, what’s the reputation system?” So : “With this new-found charity, they decided it’s time to launch their own business. They’re able to obtain a loan with a D-app on the platform with the reputation they have accumulated over time. Their business begins employing other in their community, creating a positive feedback loop towards economic growth in that region.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, I mean, this is essentially, it’s a video game. It’s like, I’ve been playing Stardew Valley on my Nintendo Switch. It’s similar to that. It’s just this fantasy that everything is linear and within four days you could have lived half a life. So, why do you think Brian Armstrong is doing this? We’ve talked to other people we know about Toshi. I will say, in Brain Armstrong’s defense that he says, “Look this is very rudimentary. It’s only an idea. Don’t judge it as anything real yet. I am just trying to display what I feel like the entire value proposition of Ethereum is.”

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, and I think that, look, it’s San Francisco. San Francisco is its own universe where this kind of thinking is more celebrated. I don’t necessarily push back at his specific vision. I think he gives a pretty gigantic vision of Ethereum there. What I push back against is that everyone wants to become an Ethereum serf. Like, if that’s the utopia that you’re promising at the end of being a crazy ETH Maximalist, I’m out.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I really don’t want to participate in a world where the vision for education for people is that maybe private charities will somehow incentivize a person to watch a Khan Academy video. That’s his like, dude, that’s his utopia of education.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, okay-

Jay Kang: That is terrible.

Aaron Lammer: So he tweeted also, last week … I don’t mean to get on Brain Armstrong. I’m curious about him. He should come on the show. But he says, “I wish there was a way to donate cryptocurrency to charities while knowing that they were going to keep the cryptocurrency and not sell it. Even if they spent the cryptocurrency by sending it to other people but not selling it, that would be fine. Otherwise, someone is going to miss out on the future upside, so you get fewer donation. I wonder about the recent amazing donations done by Pineapple Fund. How many of those charities are chasing out versus holdling it?”

Jay Kang: Jesus Christ.

Aaron Lammer: He said “Holding.” I just accidentally translated that to hodling it. But this is like a pervasive, like your entire life is through Ethereum. Hodling is basically like a religious obligation-

Jay Kang: I don’t think it’s an Ethereum thing, specifically. It’s like a crypto thing.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s like the idea that crypto’s going to take over the entire world. But I think that symbolically, someone like Brain Armstrong having an allegiance to Ethereum rather than Bitcoin is evidenced by this kind of a worldview. This is an Ethereum kind of worldview that every single system is going to interlock.

Jay Kang: I don’t agree with that. I think that it is the very San Francisco vision of somebody who thinks everyone else in the world is stupid. If only they understood that all they have to do is take contribution in Ethereum, put them on Toshi mobile wallet, never touch it, and because Ethereum can only go up, based on the laws of physics, that at some point they’ll have 10X of money that they gave them, and then they can spend it. Or, I think, what he’s basically saying is wait for the Ethereum world to show up. Then you can do charity through Toshi or something like that. Look, this sort of stuff, this is one of the things that I actually find kind of interesting about the crypto world inventing normies like you and me.

Aaron Lammer: You’re not that normal.

Jay Kang: Well, like, look at me, six months ago. There is no way to react to this except to be like, “What the hell are you talking about?” It’s like, I do think there is a separation right now between the people who are tasked with messaging for cryptocurrencies and the general public. This series of tweets, I think is insane.

Aaron Lammer: It does not … Nothing that has happened at Coinbase in the last two months makes me feel confident in Coinbase.

Jay Kang: Agreed. Coinbase — sponsor the show!

Aaron Lammer: All right. Last thing before we get on our guest. We’re about to talk to Mr. LedgerStatus himself, in a bit. But, did you see Warren Buffet was talking crypto today?

Jay Kang: Oh my God, I feel like if you’re a rich guy, if your net worth is over $300 million and you are in front of any sort of report, the first thing they’ll ask you is, “What’s up with Bitcoin?”

Aaron Lammer: He says that. At the end, he talks about, basically that’s what happens when he talks to students now. It’s awesome. Okay. Here it goes.

Warren Buffett: “In terms of cryptocurrencies, generally, I can say almost with certainty, that they will come to a bad ending. Now, when it happens or how, or anything else, I don’t know. But I know this, if I could buy long-term puts, I could buy a five year put on every one of the cryptocurrencies, I’d be glad to do it. But I would never short a dimes worth, because when you start talking-

Reporter: Have you thought about trading futures to take a negative position on Bitcoin?

Warren Buffett: No.

Reporter: You would not do that?

Warren Buffett: No. There’s no reason. I get into enough trouble with things I think I know something about. Why in the world should I take a long or short position on something I don’t know anything about. You know, we don’t have to know what cocoa beans are going to do, or cryptocurrencies, we just have to focus on eight or ten stocks, businesses basically, that we think are decent businesses. But I think that’s what’s going on, definitely, will come to a bad ending. You’ve got virtually everybody …

Warren Buffett: I have 11 schools coming on Friday. The questions will be on Bitcoin. I won’t know the answers.

Reporter: Although when we sat down, Warren, you did say, “I should have announced that we were getting involved in Bitcoin this morning.”

Warren Buffett: That is true. I mean, that would be much more interesting to the audience, that we were going to issue a whole series of cryptocurrencies tomorrow. But we aren’t, believe me. We don’t own any. We’re not short any. We’ll never have a position in them.”

Jay Kang: Whoa. Can you imagine what Berkshire-Hathaway coin would do?

Aaron Lammer: It’s kind of an amazing statement because I feel like every famous rich guy is asked to thread the needle of talking about Bitcoin. Basically people want you to say something negative about Bitcoin so that then they can tell you you were stupid one year later when Bitcoin is worth more. I like what he says, which is basically, “No. I am not gambling on this.” Like, “I have no horse in this race. It would be stupid to be on either side of this. I’m interested in stock businesses.”

Jay Kang: Yeah. Yeah. I have no problem with what Warren Buffett said. I did see some people try and excerpt … I’m glad we listened to the whole thing because I heard some people just excerpting the part where he says, “I don’t think this is going to end that well,” but like, “And-

Aaron Lammer: I like how he says that it’s going to come to a bad end, it’s like the end of a Victorian novel.

Jay Kang: Dude, do we doubt that this is going to come to a bad end of sorts?

Aaron Lammer: I mean, I think he’s like, I don’t think Buffett will be surprised if Bitcoin goes up five times this year. All he’s saying is it’s going to end in tears.

Jay Kang: Yeah. And that also, “I’m not messing with that.”

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, “I don’t mess with that kind of shit.”

Jay Kang: Which is fine.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a valuable perspective. I think that online, particularly, if you’re interested in the stuff on Twitter, there’s this huge belief that if you’re not with us, you’re against us.

Jay Kang: Oh my gosh, that’s the worst part of crypto.

Aaron Lammer: Every person who has any skepticism is spreading FUD (Fear Uncertainty and Doubt), and that, “you’re an idiot if you didn’t buy.” Like if you chose to neither buy nor short, then you’re like clearly on the short side. I think there’s a very reasonable perspective that’s like, “I’m totally neutral on this.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, I mean the part that it is a type of, sort of weird team … I don’t know, it’s just this tribalism that’s very strange, where you have people who will public have sold a lot of their Bitcoin at $2000 three years ago, and-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, then they’re going to be shamed forever.

Jay Kang: … they make a point about technology, you know? Then the first three responses in their … Not to talk about Twitter so much, but the first three response are like, “Aren’t you the idiot that sold that $2000?”

Jay Kang: Just like, “Are you guys … What is going on?” Like this guy has no right to speak anymore in public because he sold Bitcoin a little bit early, that’s insane.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. If you ever sell your Bitcoin, that’ll be on your tombstone.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: “Jay Kang-

Jay Kang: “Sold at 800.”

Aaron Lammer: … “Sold at $1500.”

Jay Kang: “Sold the dip.”

Aaron Lammer: All right, should we talk to Ledger Status?

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So your guest today is a guy who you might have seen if you are familiar with crypto Twitter. His name is Brian but he goes by Ledger Status. He started a project in which he is using both his skills that he’s developed as a stock trader since he was 15 years old, and this media business that he is part of to try and chronicle the way in which he has learned about cryptocurrencies.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, to put this in perspective, we caught a little flack on the preview episode, because I kept saying that I have no idea what I’m doing and that me and Jay are total amateurs at this. That is both accurate and inaccurate. I would say that we’re like obsessive amateurs who’ve spent way too much of our free time on this in the last few months. But it’s very obviously when you go on and you start following people on Twitter who really know about trading and that kind of stuff. A lot of them are charlatans. I certainly funneled through a lot of their feeds as I was-

Jay Kang: A lot of them are Pepe avatars.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, a lot of them, there’s some Pepe avatars. There’s some people who are trying to sell you something. I found him to be one of the most reputable, reasonable, and at times, skeptical of those voices. So, he’s been very influential on my own thinking. Jay’s always making fun of me because I will espouse a viewpoint that is actually just a Ledger Status viewpoint. So I mean-

Jay Kang: No. First of all, I’ll just say, “No. I read that tweet too.” Secondly, I will say, I am in agreement with you that part of the reason why I think both of us like him is because he does not have these pretensions that he’s a genius or that he’s a genius picker. That we are going through the process with him, and that’s sort of what we hope the podcast would be as well. So, let’s give him a call.

Aaron Lammer: Welcome Brian Krogsgard AKA Ledger Status.

Ledger Status: Hey guys. Thanks for having me.

Aaron Lammer: I have to admit, I did not know your name until two hours ago. I just thought of you as Ledger Status.

Ledger Status: Yeah, that’s okay. That’s how I’ve marketed myself in this realm. I was findable, but it wasn’t doxed, if you will. That’s what people like to say in this space. A lot of people are anonymous. I never really wanted to be, but it was also kind of a secret side project, so I didn’t really use my full name. But when I started my podcast, I decided I didn’t want my co-hosts and guests to be calling me Ledger, so I started saying, “My name’s Brian.” That’s fine.

Jay Kang: Hey, where does the name Ledger Status come from?

Ledger Status: Well, Ledger because of the way blockchain works and the ledger that’s created when this whole things in operation. Then my main business is actually called Post Status, which is a WordPress news site. It just fit and people seem to like it okay, so I went with it.

Aaron Lammer: What, so what were like the, from that standpoint of someone who worked within the publishing community, what got you into crypto in the first place? What were your first few steps?

Ledger Status: I’m like most people that FOMO’d (Fear of Missing Out) in in 2017, I think. A huge percentage of people trading crypto today were not trading crypto before the year 2017. However, my awareness of Bitcoin and the blockchain space goes back many years, even to when there was the crash that happened before the first bubble popped. For whatever reason, I just kind of ignored, and never got actually into it. Then realized the monetary potential and totally thought the bubble concepts were fine. For some reason, it just clicked this year and I totally FOMO’d into the original Ethereum run.

Aaron Lammer: That was where you jumped in? Like, circa Ethereum going to the moon.

Jay Kang: You’re the second person who has told us that Ethereum was his gateway drug in. For the people who are new to crypto, can you just tell us a little bit about what that was like? The first sort of Ethereum sniff?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, what are the hallmarks of the Ethereum generation? Because I think there are like, even within this year, there are two or three crypto generations. What can we say about the Ethereum youth?

Ledger Status: I was really the second leg of the Ethereum FOMO crowd, because by the time I got in, you’d already reached maximum euphoria for the people that saw Ethereum at $5, $7, $10. So my first purchase was in May, like it was really recent. So it was like $70 or $100. It’s hard to remember anymore. I just remember-

Aaron Lammer: Basically, in eight months you’ve gone from owning no crypto to having part of your identity be @LedgerStatus.

Ledger Status: Yeah, which is ridiculous. I even have new people, like, you know, new Twitter people that will say something like I’m an OG. And I’m like, “What?” They’re completely wrong. I try to be transparent about the fact that I’m new, but there’s this whole group of people that are new enough, but come from a complimentary skillset. So, for me, the nature of open-source software compared with business interests really connected with me, because of what I deal with in the WordPress space, with Automattic who owns WordPress.com, and then the other big companies like GoDaddy, and others that are really invested in the WordPress ecosystem.

New Speaker: Then combined with the fact that I traded stocks when I was 15 years old. You know, my dad gave me a little bit of money and said I could do whatever I want with it, as long as it was investing. So, I got my first online trading accounts when E-Trade and TD Ameritrade and those were really big, back when I was 15 years old, so that was 17 years ago. I remember using Bollinger Bands and these technical things when I was a teenager.

Aaron Lammer: What do you think it would be like if you were 15 now? Like if you had been 15 during the crypto boom, do you think you’d still be alive now?

Ledger Status: I have no idea what I’d be. I think, if I was 15 and I was aware of this, I would probably be saving money from working at the restaurant busing tables to buy a mining rig or something.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah you should be so lucky. So, one thing that we were both struck by was that when we read your website, we learned a lot of this stuff that you’re telling us about. Like, you’re new to the space and that you’re learning as you go along, and that what you want to create is almost like a document of you learning how to do this stuff. What has that learning process been like for you? It seems like you’ve learned a lot quickly. How much of your life has this taken over?

Ledger Status: More than I would have anticipated. For me, everything I’ve ever done, I start to dig in, and for some reason, I’m drawn to share about it. You know, I majored in engineering in school. I didn’t major in web developing or computer science, so when I dug into that space, it was really a matter of just going headfirst. I called it taking myself back to college, basically. In a period of six months, or a year, however long, I learned the skills that would be required to then go do something professionally. I went full-time doing web stuff well before I would have expected, either.

Ledger Status: Then and now, there was a vacuum of people not really sharing what they know, and I’ve always been able to have some kind of knack for taking what I’ve learned, recognizing that I’m not an expert in that, necessarily, but I can always teach people that are a step, or two steps, or five steps behind where I am right now. So even though you don’t know everything, you can transition that knowledge to the people that are newer than you. What’s been interesting about crypto is the fact that almost everyone is newer than you. Like, you know-

Jay Kang: We’re both newer than you.

Ledger Status: … the rate of new users is so fast that every few months, there are probably more people than everyone that existed before, just a few months prior. Because there’s just this swell of new users, new investors, and they don’t know anything.

Jay Kang: What drew you to want to teach? Especially when you’re new yourself?

Ledger Status: I’ve always had this draw towards some form of community within what I’m doing. I don’t know why, per se, I just love sharing stuff. So, within crypto the best way to keep up with the news and, “Why is the price doing what it’s doing?” Has always been Twitter. Then disseminating that information, beyond Twitter, I feel like, is important because normal human beings aren’t going to read crypto Twitter all day.

Jay Kang: God, that would be terrible.

Aaron Lammer: So, how do you feel your approach differs from the average, “Buy these bags,” kind of account?

Ledger Status: Yeah, I really like to address, as much as I can, what the risk profile is and basically share things as if someone was sharing it with me, like what they’re investing in. And being as real as I possibly can, and that includes wins and losses. I think what sets me apart is people that have been in this space longer than me, like maybe they were in this when there was no one on Twitter taking their advice like it was gospel in 2015 or 2016, or even sooner, and now people really are taking that pretty seriously. So I try to be-

Jay Kang: Oh my God, yeah. You can see a 1:1 correlation effect when an influential Twitter person pimps a bag. It really does jump a little bit, depending on the market cap. But the smaller ones definitely do.

Ledger Status: It’s certainly no reason to buy, because those things equalize over time. You know, new market makers are getting involved, like big money that makes that go away. Everybody gets into this because either they’re excited about the technology, or they’re excited about the financial elements of being able to make a little money and there’s nothing wrong with that. So if I can help guide someone in the right direction, preferably to teach themselves, or to show them how to learn, and not just they look at my chart, I say it’s a good buy so they go buy. That’s not going to help them in the long run. They’re going to lose their money, probably. Or at least their Bitcoin, if not their US dollars.

Aaron Lammer: How are you dealing with this era? We were talking earlier on this show about Dentacoin and when you name what week it is, it would be a different coin, but there’s always going to be something kind of ridiculous happening. A mega pump on something that’s very hard to see the utility of, and I’m curious, does it bother you to be like, “Well, this is a good buy, but this is totally a scam,”?

Ledger Status: Yeah. There are certain ones that I really don’t like to be involved in. Like some of the ones where I feel like they’re … forking Bitcoin, for instance, is a really big way to get a big surge in price right now. I don’t like those, especially if they’re trying to steal the Bitcoin name. I’m a pretty anti-Bitcoin Cash person, but for that reason, because I think it’s a threat to the overall economy. But then there’s others, like all these alt coins that seem very scammish, like where the team controls 40%. They have no real product. The white paper’s copied. I don’t like those either. I really try to steer away from them. There’s always going to be scams and you just got to be careful. On the whole, though, the scams are fewer today than it used to be. There used to be even more, and I’ve learnt that from getting to know people that have been around for several years.

Jay Kang: I think when people enter this space right now, and they want to learn about chart analysis, they see these terms like cloud entry, or Fibonacci Resistances. For people who are starting out in crypto who are interested in trading who, like yourself, want to start to learn this stuff, what are three things that you think they should know?

Ledger Status: Sure, the first is that you need to know the current market cap of whatever you’re trading, because these things surge in rankings, essentially. People will buy something because it’s a low price, like maybe it’s $0.06. But, it might be worth $20 billion in market cap. Therefore, it’s going to be less likely to go to $1000. It’s not like you’re buying Bitcoin at $0.06. You’re buying something that has a much larger supply than Bitcoin, which has 21 million supply. It might have a billion supply, or whatever, so that’s why the price is low. So you need to know what the price is relative to the market cap in supply. That’s definitely number one.

Ledger Status: If I’m looking at one within the market cycle, which is also the second indicator that I would recommend, crypto’s all about market cycles. So, over the past couple of months, it would have been of great value to choose something that’s in a lull, with regards to market cycle. If you’re trying to choose between one that’s ten cents and one that’s $100 in terms of the retail price, the ten cents is probably going to do better because of that herd mentality of new people that think ten cents is cheaper than $100, even if the market cap of the $100 is much lower than the one that’s ten cents. So, if I was trying to choose between both of those, both of them feel right to gain value versus Bitcoin, then I would probably choose the ten cents, if I equate all fundamentals and everything else. So, yeah-

Jay Kang: How do you figure out what market cycle we’re in? Because I think the thing that you are talking about right now is something that everyone was observing, but just one of the things you learn, I guess, when you’re gambling, essential, is don’t follow that sort of money. Don’t get more aggressive just because someone’s bleeding money. Just wait and they’ll get to you. How do you determine what a market cycle is in crypto?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I’m also curious about, someone just showed me a chart that was like, “Hold in January and February. Buy alts in March and April.” I was like, “We all just started doing this is 2017, so how is there an established yearly market cycle already?”

Jay Kang: I have no other January to compare this with.

Ledger Status: Well, you do. You can always look at the history of the charts for older coins. So I would advise, look at Bitcoins historical pricing. You can use a site like TradingView to do that. And look at some of the older, more established coins and see how they’ve cycled. One that has done that is DASH, every year seems to have this markup cycle. Or, Monero’s (XMR) kind of done that. Another one is Syscoin (SYS), which is like a much lower market cap, but you can clearly see these yearly cycles and markups.

Ledger Status: Basically, though, the best way to determine that is to look at price relative to Bitcoin, and this would be my third big thing. Looking at US dollar value in crypto can have its advantages, but for the most part, unless you are really, really a dead project, everything’s gaining in value relative to the dollar. But, if you’re investing in anything other than Bitcoin and buying and holding Bitcoin, if it can’t outpace the growth of Bitcoin, during whatever trade period you’re looking at, then you might as well just hold Bitcoin. Because, one, you may be creating a tax event for yourself.

Ledger Status: But, #2 is, if you’re bullish on crypto, then you basically have to be bullish on Bitcoin, or at a bare minimum, Ethereum, because if something major happens with one of the two of them, it would affect the entire market in at big way. So, I always say, “Bitcoin is king, and Bitcoin drives the market cycle.” So you can look at the price versus the dollar, and it looks like it’s basically straight up with these months of flatness. During these months of flatness, it was probably a matter of Bitcoin going crazy. So, relative to Bitcoin, the price was going down. When Bitcoin is pumping really hard, I look at it in terms of velocity. If Bitcoin is high velocity … So remember it felt like we went from $3,000 at the end of the Bitcoin cash fork drama, initially and then all of a sudden after Thanksgiving it was $17, $18, $19,000? That is high velocity Bitcoin movement and during that time it was not a great time to be in alts.

Jay Kang: No it was not.

Aaron Lammer: Hey, I remember that.

Ledger Status: But, last alt season was when Bitcoin was dealing with all these uncertainties. That’s why I didn’t first buy Bitcoin. I first bought Ethereum because it was gaining massive amounts of value versus the dollar and versus Bitcoin, because Ethereum had all these new and shiny ICOs that made it very interesting. Bitcoin had all this, “Are there going to be two Bitcoins, or three Bitcoins? Or what’s the deal? Why are these businesses fighting developers? I don’t get it.”

Ledger Status: That was scary to me at first. Then I slowly became a Bitcoin Maximalist, in the sense that I think Bitcoin’s success overall is so important to the broader ecosystem that I want Bitcoin to go up. For me, the time to buy and then to be in alts the most is when Bitcoin is at a little lower velocity. So right now, I’m happy for Bitcoin to go up. But when it goes up 15% in a day, it’s going to slaughter alt coins. Or when it goes down 15% in a day, it’s going to slaughter alt coins. There’s a common meme that’s like, over the fall, “Bitcoin pumps, alts dump. Bitcoin dumps, alts dump.”

Ledger Status: If you really want to gain Bitcoin, you want to get new Bitcoin, you do it by trading alts. Alts will most likely have their opportunity to gain value against Bitcoin when Bitcoin is sideways or low velocity. So I don’t think alt coin pricing has a super significant relationship to Bitcoin pricing up or down. I think the relationship is actually more correlated to Bitcoins velocity. When Bitcoin has a super high velocity one direction or the other, that’s not good for alt coins. But when Bitcoin is a little more stable, like you’re not freaking out about what Bitcoin’s going to do that day, there’s more people willing to go and play in the alts market and you have a chance to make some money on alt coins.

Ledger Status: That said, most people should probably buy and hold. Look for a decent entry and then hold on for a while.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, we’re definitely down against hodling, both of us.

Jay Kang: Oh my God. It’s not even close.

Aaron Lammer: We’ve done well on many alts, when you actually put in the actual dates, it can be a bit embarrassing.

Jay Kang: A bit? It’s thoroughly embarrassing. We will also hold it.

Ledger Status: The best traders you follow, they probably hit their Bitcoin all-time high, like the ones that are experienced, they probably hit their Bitcoin all-time high, sometime in mid-summer 2017. Then, even doing a decent job, they probably bled their Bitcoin all-time high, until the first week in December.

Jay Kang: I want to ask you something, because it’s something in the space that drives me absolutely crazy. Which is like, everybody that says that when you’re choosing an alt that what you should, you should read the white paper. You should research the team. And that you should try and figure out what the use case for this things is. I promise you, I really do this with every single Shitcoin that I buy, and I have found that it is absolute nonsense. The white paper is mainly nonsense. The idea that the team is important …

New Speaker: Like, there are exceptions, for example. I think a coin that you talk a lot about, like 0x (ZRX). If you look at the people, they have worked on real projects. But for the vast majority of the people, you see the coin being discussed on Reddit or Telegram or something. They’re like, “Oh this person took a class at Stanford, so therefore, the team is good.” There’s no way to verify any of it. It’s four photos, usually of people, and it says random words next to it. I mean, how do you actually make a decision beyond this, though, because for so many of these projects, this is actually the extent of the information we have about them?

Ledger Status: Yeah, at the end of the day, for me, it’s going to matter in regards to what the chart looks like. However, the biggest wins are fundamentally based. So, Ethereum itself, for instance, the biggest win would be finding something that’s like Ethereum, or XeroX is one you mentioned. Even 0x (ZRX) it went down for months. I have the chart, literally right in front me. It went down for months relative to Bitcoin because it was stable versus the dollar.

Ledger Status: But taking an idea like that, a fundamental idea, and buying it at the right time and then holding on for the longer term. DASH is another great example. You could have gotten DASH for some absurdly small amount of money, and now it’s worth $1200 or $1400 per, are something. Or Monero (XMR. Those are fundamental decision. But those are cream of the crop alt coins.

New Speaker: There are new cream of the crop alt coins, now, that aren’t billion dollar valuations yet. Maybe they’re 10 million. Maybe they’re 50 million. Those are the gems where you go in and you put a small investment, like 1% of your portfolio into that, and then you let it ride for years.

New Speaker: But for the most part, if I’m looking at one now and I’m choosing alt coin, I care that it’s not a total scam. But for the most part I’m looking for price velocity. So I’m looking at how good is the setup versus Bitcoin? Do I have an opportunity to make money? And how’s the entry? If you marry your bag, as they say, eventually you might get burned, unless it really is going to be one of those fundamental winners.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I mean to come at this from the opposite side of the same divide, it makes sense that most things are crap. Most everything is crap. You go to a film festival, most of the movies are crap. You look at-

Jay Kang: That’s such a weird example.

Aaron Lammer: You look at seed investment in technology. Like look at the portfolio of someone who’s a real seed investor in startups. They’re investing in trash all the time. Just things that have such a, such a small chance of succeeding. So, if there really only are a handful, a dozen, a few dozen legit alts, that shouldn’t really be that surprising to us. But I’m curious your view-

Jay Kang: I feel like Aaron, right now, is defending his Sumo (SUMO) investment and his Zoin (ZOI) investment.

Aaron Lammer: I will admit-

Jay Kang: We’ve had this talk before.

Aaron Lammer: I will admit that I have been dabbling in the shallower waters of cryptopia recently. But, we’ve been talking about Ethereum today, too. Ethereum’s pumping. We’re starting to talk about potential flippening again.

Ledger Status: Yeah, most people would say that by the time you start talking about the flippening, it’s time to sell Ethereum, but …

Aaron Lammer: Well, my question was going to be, would anything change? So much of the orthodoxy of crypto trading right now is that you’re building Bitcoin value. You’re basically playing a game to try to get as much Bitcoin as possible. I’m wondering if anything could shake you from that viewpoint? What would it take to not trade that way, or to start ignoring Bitcoin? Would it just become Eth, or is there a legitimate future that doesn’t include either of those being dominant?

Ledger Status: For a long time, people that were investing in Bitcoin and crypto, they weren’t 100% sure that Bitcoin would be the one. Bitcoin was an experiment until all of a sudden it was the industry standard. It’s possible that Bitcoin could be unseated. The type of thing that it would take for me to not believe in Bitcoin would be a drastic failure in terms of its network effects. So, network effects meaning exchanges giving Bitcoin base pairs for what you trade against.

New Speaker: A great threat would be like what I see with Bitcoin Cash (BCH), if they succeeded in hijacking the Bitcoin name from Bitcoin, and all of a sudden the real Bitcoin, if you will, becomes Bitcoin Cash and it’s controlled in a centralized manner by Roger Ver and Jihan Wu, and their interests. That would be highly concerning to me, and I would be looking for alternatives. What I would probably be looking for in that case, because I think of someone dethrones Bitcoin as the gold standard of crypto, I think that would be a highly bearish move in the short- to mid-term, so I would probably be looking at being in $US Dollars (USD) in that case.

Jay Kang: So, look, one of the things that I have noted is that you seemed to have learned a lot of this technical analysis stuff very quickly, and it’s self-taught, it seems like. I don’t know, but I assume you’re not taking university classes on technical chart analysis right now.

Aaron Lammer: How to Trade Shitcoins 101.

Jay Kang: Yeah, exactly.

Ledger Status: That’ll be the top.

Jay Kang: What’s the best way to learn this stuff, because I think there are a lot of very smart people that I know who are starting to get into this space. They have much better abilities with things like math than I do, and they don’t know what a cloud entry is. They don’t know what resistance lines are. But there are things that I think these people could pick up much more quickly than I am. For somebody who is so inclined and who probably could do it, what is a way in which they could learn the things that you have been learning over the past, let’s say ten months to a year?

Ledger Status: Yeah, my podcast co-host is Josh Olszewicz, he’s known as @CarpeNoctom on Twitter. I think he’s done a better job than anyone. I’ve tried to emulate him, except I’m more willing to play in the deep, dark alt coin world than he is. He sticks to pretty large cap stuff, and I’ll chart anything.

Aaron Lammer: You’re willing to get dirty.

Ledger Status: Yeah. But Josh is really great at explaining things, both from a fundamental and technical perspective. When you talk about cloud entries, he brought the cloud to crypto more than anyone, probably. Especially when you see certain cloud settings. But, learning, you can read traditional technical analysis books for traditional markets. Then what you do is you take any concept listed there, like a Fib extension is one that you mentioned. So the golden ratio, Fibonacci numbers, these are not limited to investing. Weirdly enough, stock charts and crypto charts, they tend to obey some of these Fib levels. So a .618 would be an extension, how much you can expect something to go up from the previous high, down to a low, and then reach that previous high and then go beyond it. 0x (ZRX) is on that right now. I’m looking at it on a chart.

Aaron Lammer: How many charts do you have open at a given time? Describe your computer for us.

Ledger Status: My watch list of stuff that I follow is probably 50–60 coins. Each one has the Bitcoin chart and the USD chart, and sometimes, the Ethereum chart, so that I can see what it’s doing compared to each of them. If it’s Bitcoin alone, I have Bitcoin for four or five different exchanges, and I’ll chart different things on them. It’s pretty crazy.

Aaron Lammer: Now that you’re kind of like a known expert in this field, and as you said, progressive waves are getting bigger and bigger, are people that you were surprised, in your life, getting into crypto, who you never would have thought would have?

Ledger Status: The Thanksgiving and Christmas effect was very real. And also-

Jay Kang: Yes it was.

Ledger Status: Yeah, and also, I went to a conference for my regular job. I run a trade business. It was a tech conference, sure, but no one even knew what @LedgerStatus was. They just knew that I had done a little bit of Bitcoin investing from, probably, three or four tweets, and I got asked about crypto stuff constantly. So everything from work conference to my mother-in-law forwarding me emails about Bitcoin being dangerous to my-

Aaron Lammer: She’s not wrong.

Ledger Status: Yeah. My 92 year-old grandmother who has long enjoyed the stock market was asking me about crypto because my mom had told her about it. But she was interested in it, and my 92 year-old grand other had heard of Bitcoin, so it’s everywhere. I’m actually surprised the Christmas effect wasn’t quite as strong as the Thanksgiving effect. After Thanksgiving, Bitcoin just went insane.

Aaron Lammer: Well, we are really enjoying everything you’re doing. Where can people find the podcast that you do with CarpeNoctom, if they want to subscribe?

Ledger Status: Yeah, they can just search Ledger Casts in pretty much any podcast app. That would be great, if they want to subscribe. We try to give people enough information, and then there’s tons of show notes on ledgerstatus.com. So my user name on Twitter is @ledgerstatus on ledgerstatus.com. The podcast is there, and then I have a lot of other stuff I’m working on that will also go on the website.

Aaron Lammer: Very cool. Well, will you come back on the show and give us an updated lesson at some point?

Ledger Status: Yeah, I’d love to come back on the show any time.

Aaron Lammer: All right, thank you so much.

Ledger Status: All right.

Jay Kang: All right, Brian. Thanks a lot.

Ledger Status: Thanks for having me, guys.

Announcer: This episode of Coin Talk was recorded Wednesday, January 10th at 4 pm Eastern Standard Time. The Bitcoin Price Index was $14,476.

Aaron Lammer: With that, we bring to a close the very first episode of Coin Talk. Thanks very much to my cohost, Jay Crypto Kang, for being along with me on this journey. Thanks to Ledger Status for being our sacrificial first guest. I don’t think he realized he was the first guest, but he was. Thanks to the good people at Medium, they’re our partners. They help us make the show possible. The show lives at medium.com/cointalk.

Aaron Lammer: Basically what’s going to happen is we’re going to record the show, get it up as quickly as possible, and then we’re going to do a transcript for the show and get that up as quickly as possible. We’ll have show notes with all sorts of stuff that you can read that we talked about on this episode. So, if you’re a Medium person I recommend you go over there and subscribe. If you’re more of a listening kind of person and less of a reading the transcript kind of person, you should subscribe to the show in the podcast app of your choice. It’s in Apple. Just got an email that it’s gotten added to Google Play. I think it’s in Stitcher now. It should be everywhere within 24 hours, if it’s not now. So, go to subscribe and tell all your friends. Tell all the people that your texting and Telegram channeling with about crypto about the show. We need your support to make it huge.

Aaron Lammer: Send your questions, comments, recommendations for guests and whatever else you got going on. Oh, hey, if you want to sponsor the show, get in touch. We are looking for sponsors, hi@cointalk.show. Again, hi@cointalk.show. We’re also on Twitter @cointalkshow, and Instagram @cointalkshow. We’ll be putting up little clips from the show and all kinds of stuff there, so follow us everywhere you get media. Okay, we will be back very soon.