Episode #44: š¤·š» āWut Is Governance?ā with Brady Dale from CoinDesk
Aaron and Jay welcome back on Brady Dale from CoinDesk to talk EOS, what āgovernanceā actually means, and exchange-issued coins like Binanceās BNB.
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COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press āListen to the storyā above to play the episode. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)
Transcript
Aaron Lammer: Brady, Iāve been wanting to have you back on show for a while. Actually before I get to what I really want to talk to you about, do you guys would you be up to talking a small amount of breaking news?
Jay Kang: Sure.
Aaron Lammer: Daily news as it were.
Jay Kang: Which is it?
Aaron Lammer: The ETFs are dead now.
Brady Dale: All of them?
Aaron Lammer: All of them were nixed all at once, is that right?
Jay Kang: Nine of them. I donāt-
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I think or at least this batch.
Brady Dale: So itās not just the Winklevoss one?
Aaron Lammer: This generation is dead. In fact, I believe that they expedited ⦠Like, they couldāve waited a week or two. Like, rolling college admissions. And they were like, āYou didnāt get in. And also, none of you got in. Youāre all rejected.ā
Jay Kang: Yeah in fact ⦠Remember the year they had no Pulitzer prize for literature?
Aaron Lammer: Wasnāt that this year?
Jay Kang: No, I think it was a few years ago. I think itās very similar. Theyāre like, āNot only did you not win. In fact, none of you have won.ā
Aaron Lammer: This is the year thereās no Nobel prizes at all.
Jay Kang: Really? Why?
Aaron Lammer: Because of sexual misconduct scandals in the Nobel organization.
Jay Kang: Huh. I donāt know how I feel about that. Is that really fair to the people that might win?
Aaron Lammer: Did you think you were maybe like a ⦠This might be your year and now youāre finally got that theyāre not giving one.
Jay Kang: Well, when I die, Iāll just kind of blame it on-
Aaron Lammer: Look, you understand if they have to take a year of ineligibility because of misconduct, but not during your playing prime.
Jay Kang: Yeah, exactly. I mean, like oh man, if it wasnāt for the 2008 canceled season, I wouldnāt want to-
Aaron Lammer: Wait till Jay stops writing before we stop issuing the Nobels. Okay.
Jay Kang: Look, as Iāve said before, I have divested from writing and journalism, so it wouldnāt be for that.
Brady Dale: But Dylangot it for literature so they could expand eventually.
Aaron Lammer: And I do think of you as a Dylan type.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Jay Kang: Thank you.
Brady Dale: Wait, so I donāt understand what the breaking news is, Aaron.
Aaron Lammer: The breaking news is the ETFs are ⦠This whole like, the last optimistic thing people were waiting for is now-
Jay Kang: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: Gone from like lively to injured to dead.
Brady Dale: The Bitcoin community is so hungry for ETF to happen. They just want it super bad.
Aaron Lammer: Theyāre hungry for any good news.
Jay Kang: Yeah, price didnāt go down very much.
Aaron Lammer: No, I mean the marketās already taken a hit from the last failed ETF.
Brady Dale: I think people largely, I think a lot of people expected it.
Jay Kang: Alright. Iām going to chalk this up as points for my general theory that the price of Bitcoin has nothing to do with news.
Aaron Lammer: Iām going to agree with you in so far as we probably overrate almost all news. Like, the idea that this is news-
Jay Kang: Thatās a better way to put it.
Aaron Lammer: Is weāre scraping the bottom of the local crime blotter to fill a few pages on a lazy summer Friday.
Jay Kang: No, no, no. I think the ETF was big news though, right? I mean, it was the hopes and dreams of people like ⦠Oh, I donāt know who is the ⦠Like the guy from Shark Tank. Remember we read that article, Aaron?
Aaron Lammer: It was big news if it happened. What Iām saying is, itās not big news if it doesnāt happen.
Brady Dale: Yeah, I think the-
Aaron Lammer: We remain in the state of no ETF.
Brady Dale: I think they had priced in no ETF and so thatās when there wasnāt a big change. It would have been crazy if thereād been an ETF.
Jay Kang: When you say āthey,ā Iām curious about this, Brady, who do you mean ⦠Who is they when-
Aaron Lammer: The new world order.
Brady Dale: The Illuminati.
Jay Kang: Thatās right.
Aaron Lammer: The anti-bankers.
Brady Dale: The Clintons.
Aaron Lammer: I think I agree with you because it seemed like a dip to about here during the whole thing and then it just went down for a little bit right when this was announced. Then just popped back up and I have to say, I donāt think anyone Iāve talked to has been like, āThe ETF is gonna happen.ā Iāve heard mostly like sad face about it.
Jay Kang: No, what do you ⦠People that you and I have talked to though ⦠Am I misremembering this? I feel like-
Aaron Lammer: I think if people really thought the ETF was happening, they wouldāve run the price up in advance of it.
Jay Kang: Okay.
Aaron Lammer: So I think the fact that the marketās flat was probably insider information. People basically ⦠Like the more knowledgeable the people, most of them seem to be like, āDonāt get you too excited here.ā
Jay Kang: Iām sticking with my ā¦
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, no news is matters.
Jay Kang: No news about the ETF mattered to the price because no news really matters to the price.
Brady Dale: Well, the real price movement, it tends to happen before the news, right? Itās the rumor time where the real price movement happens.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, right. And-
Jay Kang: But I also think that rumors have no effect on the ⦠Like, I donāt think any piece of information is correlated to the price of Bitcoin in any way.
Brady Dale: Huh.
Jay Kang: Except like, coin base has been hacked.
Aaron Lammer: Wait a minute, when a big piece of news happens and thereās a big spike, like right then you donāt see correlation there?
Jay Kang: When has that happened?
Aaron Lammer: Iāll give the most embarrassing version of this. When the information-
Aaron Lammer: No, on Coinbase when they were going to add a BCH and it shot up right before then.
Jay Kang: The price of BCH shot up. But the price of Bitcoin was the same.
Aaron Lammer: Oh, I see-
Brady Dale: Itās only Bitcoin, youāre saying only bit ⦠Like, other things
Aaron Lammer: Other things correlate to them, okay.
Brady Dale: Perfect.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I mean I would say I have trouble going that news is totally disambiguated.
Jay Kang: But to be clear, right, I believe that the price is almost always due to market manipulation and not due to organic reaction to news.
Aaron Lammer: Thatās what Brady was saying about the price already being cooked in.
Jay Kang: No, but BCH-
Aaron Lammer: The already manipulated the market because they know.
Jay Kang: BCH was market manipulation.
Aaron Lammer: Well, that was the most clearly market manipulation of all of the market manipulations. Brady, you cover this stuff. Youāre writing articles for coin debt. Do you find yourself trying to push smaller things to be news during the quiet times versus the really fast-paced times? Itās like, wow, there was two huge stories at the same time. Because there was a period, I remember, during the bowl run where I felt like there was big news every day.
Brady Dale: Right. So my focus at CoinDesk is on tokens and startups. And so I actually have been trying to ⦠Well, and my editor has asked me to try to do specifically that. But itās not so much because itās quiet but just because we think that there probably are interesting narratives in these much smaller token projects.
Brady Dale: I mean, smaller, but their coins are still worth a few million dollars or whatever. So weāre just trying to get a better sense for companies further down the pipeline and to see if our readers are interested in it. And a lot of times, they are because their stories illuminate weird things about how crypto works.
Brady Dale: Like, today I did a story about how certain companies, I mean, a little company was the focus but also big companies like Binance do this. Companies will do ICOs, sell tokens, then get revenue in the form of their tokens and just throw out some of that, like destroy some of that revenue. And thatās good for token holders. I mean, itās clear price manipulation.
Brady Dale: Illuminating those weird things is interesting to our readings so-
Aaron Lammer: I feel like what youāre covering when you cover Binance burning a bunch of its own tokens is weird new religion ⦠A cult practices being tested out on civilian populations.
Brady Dale: The last time they did a burn, they threw out 30 million dollars worth of tokens, just like threw 30 million dollars out the window.
Jay Kang: What does the Binance token do?
Aaron Lammer: Itās like dust if you do a transaction. They give you your deep change in B2B.
Brady Dale: If you do trades with BNB, as I understand it, you get the trades that lower prices because-
Jay Kang: Oh, so itās like if the Applebeeās gift card gave you a free ⦠If you get a ⦠I donāt know, like a extra Margarita or something on top of it.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you get like extra fries with your orders.
Brady Dale: And itās brilliant because the more transactions happen, the more the value of the token goes up. And obviously, theyāve got a pile of it, right?
Aaron Lammer: Yeah.
Jay Kang: I mean, it seems like what youāre describing there is sort of like a ⦠How does that work in a market sense? Where they give you free fries on top of your burger that you order?
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah.
Jay Kang: And because theyāre giving that to you, that means that the margin of the cost of the fries then gains in value? Like, the thing that they gave you, the fries, then gain in ⦠Like, it seems like what youāre describing is sort of like a [inaudible 00:09:42] inflationary market.
Aaron Lammer: Well, okay, though, I mean, yes. So BNB also, if you refer people. If we were out at a lake on this show, and weāre like, āSign up for Binance the Cointalk way! Binance.com/cointalk!ā
Jay Kang: God, I wish we got paid for that. Thatās such enthusiasm.
Aaron Lammer: So that would be cinched to me and yous Cointalk account in Binance. And if our listeners signed up, thereās a certain amount of the fees, I believe are earmarked.
Jay Kang: Okay, that makes sense.
Aaron Lammer: Letās say thereās a 1% fee, they give ⦠Itās a lot. Itās like half of the fee goes to the referrer. Thatās why you see these guys sharing their referrer links really hard on Twitter. And all the YouTube shows are big on it. So that then, you get paid out. And youāre like, āWow, that could be real money.ā Right?
Aaron Lammer: Letās say someone ran up 200 dollars in fees, thatās 100 bucks to me. Pretty soon, Iāve got a few thousand dollars in fees. But they donāt give them to me in Bitcoin or dollars. They give them to me in BNB tokens. And they themselves are collecting that extra hundred dollars, right. And then theyāre issuing the BNB token. So it all works out really well for Binance.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: And thereās an open market for BNB and itās done incredibly well.
Brady Dale: Yeah, there was a great Medium post-
Aaron Lammer: Itās fucking crazy.
Brady Dale: Yeah. I think his name was-
Aaron Lammer: Itās crazy that we havenāt given out the referral link.
Jay Kang: Yeah.
Brady Dale: Thereās a great Medium poster, really explains economics of it by I think, [inaudible 00:11:18] Mohammed, I probably screwed his name up. I just looked at it again yesterday.
Brady Dale: But he explains how it all works. And heās like [inaudible 00:11:24] in it too. And then on top of that, so they do all this stuff and then periodically, Binance issued I think 200 million tokens. And theyāve committed overtime, every quarter theyāll burn ⦠20% of their profit, came in Binance tokens, and so they burned half of the token supply. Which means the supply is going down as demandās going up, so the value of the tokens just keeps increasing.
Brady Dale: So if you did the referral link and then held on to your tokens and this all keeps working, if people keep using Binance, then theyād be worth a lot more by the end. And at least, the theory. And lotās people are doing this.
Brady Dale: Obviously regulators are like, āThatās price manipulation. Kind of weird.ā In fact, regulators specifically said that about Munchee, which was the ICO that killed last year. It had burning in itās white paper, and theyāre like, āWell, that makes it a security.ā
Aaron Lammer: I mean, that gets more into the markets and second life and World of Warcraft where there is this ultimate market master whoās like destroying and creating on the fly. Okay, if I read this correctly, and Iām not sure I do. What theyāre doing isnāt so different to the EOSā and the Tezosā of the world that have this marketing budgets that are used to advertise the coin, get people to develop the apps on their, right? Theyāre basically paying our money to incentivize people to blow up their party. And BNB is also paying out their own token to get people to come refer people, trade on Binance, make Binance big.
Brady Dale: Well those are little ⦠I mean, the money is being spent by Block One from itās ICO and our Tezos foundation from itās ICO, thatās different because itās not their tokens theyāre spending yet. Though, that is a part of the plan, certainly. That is certainly part of the plan,ā
Aaron Lammer: Oh, but at some point, it unlocks big cashes of their token, right? That they can use for developers.
Brady Dale: I donāt know where that is exactly out on Tezos right now. I think thatās being sorted out. So EOS has roughly 36 million dollars in tokens, new tokens that have been issued by the chain. But they donāt have a system to decide who gets that money yet. So itās just accumulating. If they donāt get it sorted out by the end of the year, the projections will go up to like a 200 hundred million dollar fund. But they donāt have a plan to sort it out.
Brady Dale: But it doesnāt matter ⦠Thatās not too big of a deal yet because both of those companies have so much money from the ICO anyway. Thatās not the tokens, itās just Bitcoin [inaudible 00:13:55] that people gave them that they can fund all kinds of things with that in our-
Jay Kang: I donāt understand how the thing that youāre describing is appealing in any way to somebody who believes in decentralized economic systems. Like, what you have described is perhaps the most centralized ⦠Itās basically like a dictatorship.
Aaron Lammer: It also feels like it echos these weird, extreme hedonistic decadent eras of in our past. Where like, āOn the first day, we will collectively go and burn one hundred souls and 10 million dollars in gold.ā
Jay Kang: I donāt know if this is a right analogy, but you know how in Portland has a lot of strip clubs?
Brady Dale: Yes.
Aaron Lammer: Vegan strip clubs.
Jay Kang: And theyāre giving you ⦠They have one vegan strip club, but it is the most famous of the strip clubs in Portland.
Aaron Lammer: Yes.
Jay Kang: However, if you go to any strip club in Portland, and you give them 60 dollars, lets say, in twenties. Instead of giving it to you in ones, theyāll give it to you in twos, right. Theyāve all [inaudible 00:14:54] to decide that this is going to be it. So you have so much ⦠There are all these two dollar bills in circulation and-
Aaron Lammer: Well, thatās actually a relatively sound money approach compared to strip clubs where you canāt use money at all and you have to trade money for bucks at the door.
Brady Dale: Iāve never even heard of that.
Aaron Lammer: Thatās how it works in Pittsburgh.
Brady Dale: I mean, Iāve never been to a strip club, or anything. But people have told me that thatās the thing.
Aaron Lammer: Many people have told me that thatās how it works in Pittsburgh. So if you didnāt get a ride home from a strip club, ever, in Pittsburgh, the guy outside with the black car might have told you that he gets insane 600 dollar tips in strip club bucks sometimes. Because-
Jay Kang: Nobody-
Aaron Lammer: Traveling businessmen go in-
Jay Kang: They donāt want to use it.
Aaron Lammer: Wanna swipe a credit card, take out a couple thousand bucks in strip club bucks, donāt use them all, you canāt trade them back. All you can do is hold them forever.
Brady Dale: Does he [inaudible 00:15:52] at 50% off to other people?
Aaron Lammer: Yeah. He doesnāt work for the club, but most of his business pays and he accepts it because the tip ⦠Most people are like, āOh, itās 20 bucks? Hereās everything I got.ā Which is probably the end state of the BNB token too. People are just going to be giving this away at some point.
Jay Kang: The reason why I brought it up ⦠And I actually, the Pittsburgh thing is probably a better example, but is that they wonāt accept one dollar bills in these establishments. And so there is a collective decision made that they will ⦠That this is how the entire economy is going to work. Itās going to work in two dollar bills, right.
Jay Kang: You know, it works. I think itās probably a good thing. Itās better for the dancers, itās better for the club ⦠Itās better to pay people. But-
Aaron Lammer: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Itās a managed economy.
Jay Kang: It is a managed economy and it is not decentralized, it is not like an actual market. Itās just like, if you walk in that strip club, you have to obey those rules. Thatās what this BNB thing sounds like.
Aaron Lammer: Well, can I intercede with one question?
Jay Kang: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: Jay and Brady, both. So clearly in crypto itās a taboo to create an inflationary situation. But isnāt it therefore a Mitzvah to create a deflationary situation?
Jay Kang: I donāt believe so because I think that if you went to Satoshi, who is in the process of starting his publicity rounds for his book-
Aaron Lammer: Brady, since I hope you donāt actually listen to this show all that often, our last episode was on Excerptoshi.
Jay Kang: I think itās our third episode on Excerptoshi.
Aaron Lammer: Anonymous author of the forthcoming Satoshi Memoir, which weāre trying to get a galley copy of.
Brady Dale: Nice.
Aaron Lammer: So that we can read it for the show. But anyway, sorry-
Brady Dale: I do listen some, I havenāt heard that one yet.
Jay Kang: So I think if you told Satoshi thereās going to be one dude and heās going to decide to burn Bitcoin based on the idea that the price will never go down. And if the price is about to go down, heāll just burn more Bitcoin and then thereāll be less of them so each of the Bitcoin will be worth more.
Aaron Lammer: But anyone can burn Bitcoin.
Jay Kang: Huh?
Aaron Lammer: Anyone can burn Bitcoin.
Jay Kang: Yeah-
Aaron Lammer: You could burn your Bitcoin.
Jay Kang: Anyone can burn Bitcoin, but thereās not one person who can burn all the remaining Bitcoins.
Aaron Lammer: Thatās the wildest thing you could do in the club in Dubai. Is just like take out like a ledger nano and just smash it on the floor.
Jay Kang: But that doesnāt-
Aaron Lammer: Say, āI just burned a hundred Bitcoin.ā
Jay Kang: That doesnāt destroy the Bitcoin, though.
Aaron Lammer: Itās not falling out if you keep your secret private key somewhere.
Jay Kang: If your burning your 20 word seed cardā¦
Aaron Lammer: I mean, who knows if these companies are really burning these coins, either. This is totally ⦠I can imagine-
Jay Kang: But thatās what I mean. I donāt think that it is a Mitzvah then to ⦠I do not think that it is a Mitzvah to create a deflationary currency if it means that you have essentially created a completely authoritarian economic system.
Aaron Lammer: How do they defend it? Or I guess they donāt really have to.
Brady Dale: Well, I will say, when this company announced their burn, which hasnāt happened yet, it starts on August 31st, their token price went up. People were excited about it. And I think you can prove that things are burned. I havenāt studied finances token a ton, I just look at it a little bit because of the story. In one of the other examples, and it was one that William [inaudible 00:19:04] had pointed out, and so I just looked at that. But it sort of shows the address they send it to and I guess you can see that like, they moved.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah, I guess you can see on the chain where it moved.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: And in some ways you have to take these future burns with a grain of salt, just as speculating that, well, they promised to burn that much every year and they did the first two years-
Jay Kang: Of course it first went up when they said they were going to burn it. Because there is less of them, so like ā¦
Aaron Lammer: Well, isnāt that sort of the guiding ethos of all this stuff? And I think this pertains to Block One and EOS also, who are probably like, maybe other than Ripple, the most famous potential manager of a block chain economy. Which is, thereās a logic internally that whatever is good for Block One is good for EOS. And whatever is good for EOS is good for Block One. And therefore, the conception of ethics around creating a deflationary environment never come in because everyone is aligned in the same direction towards positive price pressure.
Aaron Lammer: And Jay, you flagged historically that this is kind of cult thinking. If we all have the same goal, we canāt screw each other over.
Jay Kang: Yeah, and itās also very non-decentralized.
Aaron Lammer: What do you think?
Brady Dale: Well, so first of all, on this specific topic, both EOS and Tezos are inflationary.
Aaron Lammer: Right.
Brady Dale: Yeah. I donāt think thereās a hard cap in one of them either.
Aaron Lammer: But theyāre fixed inflationary? The amount that theyāre going to be inflated is preset?
Brady Dale: Whatās preset, but it can change. Everything on both can change. The idea of both ⦠So whatās interesting about ⦠I mean, I think EOS is super decentralized. It is centralized because of [inaudible 00:20:49] who says that everything, anything, everyone just kind of agrees. So like EOS just to kind of ⦠I mean, itās hard to fully explain EOS. The idea of EOS was to sort of make all this stuff easier, and itās so complicated. And everybody wants to be a valid ⦠Well, all these people want to be validators.
Aaron Lammer: Validators are like miners?
Brady Dale: Are like miners. Yeah, theyāre taking in transactions and theyāre given paid-
Aaron Lammer: Why do everyone have to come up with their own name-
Jay Kang: Yeah, I agree.
Aaron Lammer: For each of these chains. Like the Tezos bakers are the validates-
Brady Dale: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: Was this getting too simple and we needed to create greater symbolic layers on it?
Jay Kang: Itās like a new basketball team. Itās like, we donāt call it the point guard here. Itās like the little bouncy men. But itās what weāre call it.
Brady Dale: The idea of bakers is kind of fun because Arthur Breitman, who came up with the whole thing, is French. Itās a French reference because to be a baker, you have to stake 10 thousand tokens and the 10 thousands tokens are called a roll. So youāre baking a roll.
Aaron Lammer: That is cute.
Brady Dale: Itās cute.
Aaron Lammer: But thatās like occupying a place in my brain-
Brady Dale: That you just donāt use.
Aaron Lammer: But I canāt use for something else.
Brady Dale: For something else, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: But if you just said, theyāre like Tezos miners or theyāre EOS miners, youāre like, āItās crazy, thereās only 21 miners.ā Iām like, āOkay, this metaphor is already complicated enough.ā
Brady Dale: Right, right.
Aaron Lammer: Explain. Okay, so thereās millions of miners-
Brady Dale: Well, EOS actually calls them block producers.
Aaron Lammer: Okay, so thereās millions of block producers on the Bitcoin [inaudible 00:22:10], thousands of block producers.
Brady Dale: Right, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: How do you do it with only 21?
Brady Dale: There are lots more than 21, but only 21 get to actually earn the big bucks from doing. And theyāre only 21 are the official ones. And thereās a constant continuous vote thatās going on, it changes every three minutes. If votes change, itās nuts.
Brady Dale: But the point I wanted to make about EOS here is like, thereās 21 there, thereās lots of other entities that are doing validation on the side. Theyāre getting paid like a little bit and some others are getting paid nothing. Everybody wants to move up in the rankings. And so the way that people who donāt have a lot of money and donāt hold a lot of tokens do it, is they try to build credibility.
Brady Dale: So thereās all these people going out and doing things that are seen as good for EOS. Everything from putting on events, to running a website, to providing certain services. And the idea is if you can get the attention of the community and they appreciate it, it moves you up in the rankings. More people are likely to vote for you.
Jay Kang: Itās pyramid scheme.
Aaron Lammer: They prefer cult.
Brady Dale: Itās this crazily complicated grassroots thing.
Aaron Lammer: It doesnāt sound complicated. You just described Herbalife.
Brady Dale: Well, I mean in terms of yeah, everybodyās doing activities to rise-
Aaron Lammer: Imagine it being in the shape of a pyramid.
Jay Kang: And all of being a scheme.
Aaron Lammer: Getting your neighbors involved in it, yes, itās like Herbalife.
Aaron Lammer: Okay, but beyond it being a little pyramid scheme-like, the part I donāt understand and I wanted to ask, we have to have on journalists to explain these things because we just canāt grasp them. So we had journalist from Wired who described Tezos to use, Gideon.
Aaron Lammer: So what I donāt get here is all this stuff points back to this idea of governance, right. These 21 validators represent votes, the governance system, right.
Brady Dale: Right, right.
Aaron Lammer: What are they governing? Jay is correct, the recruitment scheme is pyramid scheme-like. But itās all to create this giant hierarchy through which decisions are made.]-
Brady Dale: The hierarchy is shaped-
Aaron Lammer: A cult.
Brady Dale: Like a pyramid.
Aaron Lammer: I mean, itās also like early Christianity or something like that.
Jay Kang: But the idea that only 21 people make the money and everyone else is scrambling around-
Aaron Lammer: Thatās not really how it works, though, because if youāre smaller you can join the pool with more people.
Jay Kang: No, no, Iām talking about EOS.
Aaron Lammer: No in EOS, if you own point a little bit, you can get into a pool of a bunch of people that is part of one of those 21s and get a payout.
Brady Dale: I think thatās more how Tezos works.
Aaron Lammer: Oh.
Brady Dale: Thatās more how Tezos works.
Aaron Lammer: Well, I wish everyone had not picked all the different words so I would not be completely confused.
Brady Dale: So the thing thatās funny about EOS on governance. So Tezos is whole thing. I love comparing these two, I think thereās a lot of great comparisons to be made between them. Thereās a lot of great parallels. They both sort of argue that they were about governance. But Tezos in itās original incarnation, did pretty much write all the things it wanted to govern into the code. And the rules are all there. And the thing with Tezos is everything is up for grabs always. Itās always possible to change everything. But itās all got to be code-based.
Brady Dale: Whereas Dan Larimer came out and was like, āWeāre going to make a much faster block chain. Itās gonna much lower fees and also weāre going to fix governance.ā And everyoneās like, āOkay, how you going to fix governance?ā Like, āWell, we donāt actually know, weāre still launching without that. Weāre going to have like a written constitution.ā And that was a real mess and-
Jay Kang: Okay, wait a bit, just go a minute. I feel like ⦠You know, like the early ALI G where heās like, āWhat is politics?ā You know?
Brady Dale: So what I love-
Aaron Lammer: Give me an example of one thing that they would be deciding with governance?
Brady Dale: I mean, fundamentally, the most important thing of block chain, and especially like these sorts of block chains has to decide is is anyone trying to fuck with the system? Right, so if someone got into one of the 21 block producer roles and was trying to put fake transactions in there. I mean, thatās the most important thing you got to decide, is ⦠Everybody else is just like, āOh, I think number 17 is actually lying about some of these transactions.ā Thatās the biggest question.
Aaron Lammer: Okay, and weāre just going to keep pausing you along the way. Bitcoin seems like it solves that problem. Like, Bitcoin is not ⦠As far as I know, Bitcoin does not have all these crazy governance techniques.
Brady Dale: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Aaron Lammer: Yet there isnāt massive disputing about which is the correct chain in the block or everything.
Brady Dale: Yeah, because thatās the problem when you have only 21 entities with so much power.
Aaron Lammer: Right.
Brady Dale: And thereās some very clever engineers running them.
Jay Kang: Why would you set it up that way though?
Brady Dale: Because everything in crypto is about trade-offs. So when you have more validators, itās more secure, itās way harder to put a phony record. And thatās why Bitcoin is almost impossible to fake. When you have fewer validators ⦠When you have fewer validators, you can do much faster transactions much less expensively. Like thatās a-
Aaron Lammer: So basically all of these environmental issues around scaling Bitcoin, itās going to heat up all the electricity of the world. Itās like, āHey, we only have to run 21 of these generators.ā
Brady Dale: Theyāre vast ⦠I mean, it isnāt even generators, itās vastly less. Itās vastly less electricity, so thatās certainly something.
Jay Kang: Okay but why is it ⦠I donāt get it then. If itās 21 people, and itās not decentralized in that way, and those people have vasts amounts of power-
Brady Dale: Right.
Jay Kang: Right? It doesnāt even feel like itās a crypto currency.
Aaron Lammer: This isnāt a dictatorship, itās a feudal lordship.
Brady Dale: Yeah, like someone-
Jay Kang: Me and the 20 Dukes have decided ā¦
Aaron Lammer: Me and my [inaudible 00:27:43] are the only ones who deserve democracy.
Brady Dale: So hereās a great governance story, I did this story I think in late June. And this is a great example of things that come up when you have these sort of governance issues, right. So this guys, Dean [Igamen 00:27:59] described EOS as an attempted democracy hiding their true oligarchy, which I thought was pretty good.
Brady Dale: So what happened was, the first mess that happened with EOS is that when they sold all the tokens, they were originally ERC-20 tokens, okay. And now theyāre all on the EOS block chain. So when EOS was about to make that move, they told everyone, āYouāve got to prove that you have these tokens to this smart contract on a Ethereum, and lock them in there and it will generate a proof. And youāll create an EOS wallet that will match that proof and then it will know when EOS goes live, that those tokens, they were on ERC-20, are now over on EOS.ā
Aaron Lammer: Itās like if Arbyās merged with Burger King and it was like, āThis is the last day to trade your Arbyās bucks for King bucks.ā
Brady Dale: Totally, that is-
Aaron Lammer: āAnd if you donāt, your problem, man.ā
Brady Dale: Yeah, that is totally what happened. But because it was complicated and weird and people couldnāt figure out how to do it, all these people starting setting up websites that would help you make the transfer, that were just clearly fishing sites, right.
Brady Dale: And so just put your private key here, and weāll take care of everything for you.
Aaron Lammer: Can we just pause for a minute and appreciate how technology changes and money changes, but the same scams exist from when we were like 17 years old. Which is like, put your social security number in here.
Jay Kang: Itās a great scam.
Aaron Lammer: No oneās going to get approved on the tell me your password.
Brady Dale: Exactly what happened.
Jay Kang: You canāt beat that scam. Itās the best scam.
Aaron Lammer: Wow. So how much do you think that those scammers made of with in the EOS transition?
Brady Dale: Yeah, it wasnāt that much but like ⦠I mean, I think some people did pretty well. So okay, so hereās what happened. So then as ⦠It was a whole mess to get the chain live, then it comes live. And one of those groups out there that was trying to get attention for doing good things in the world was telling people, āIf you got hit by a fishing scammer, bring us all the proof you can, and weāll look into it. And if we think itās right, we will recommend the account that holds it is frozen, so we can get it reassigned back.ā
Brady Dale: Because these 21 block users have that much power, right.
Aaron Lammer: Thatās pretty non-decentralized.
Brady Dale: Oh, totally. So then what happened-
Aaron Lammer: That would be kind of what I was trying to create, the democratic system to prevent-
Jay Kang: I am going to go ⦠Look, my Dad is really in good with these 21 dudes. And heās going to go to them and heās going to tell them to just hook you up. But in exchange, I need something.
Aaron Lammer: This is basically like-
Jay Kang: This is like the dumbest ⦠Okay, I donāt know if like ⦠I donāt mean to slander EOS, but this is crazy.
Brady Dale: No, itās intensive.
Jay Kang: Why is this appealing to anyone?
Brady Dale: So they ⦠Hold on, weāre not-
Aaron Lammer: It has a lot of cult-like fun to it.
Brady Dale: Weāre not done with how crazy it gets though.
Brady Dale: So this group was like, āOkay, weāll look into it and then if we agree, weāll pass our evidence on to this thing called the EOS arbitration forum.ā
Jay Kang: Do they have cops?
Brady Dale: Well, so there was kind of meant to be cops.
Aaron Lammer: This ends in Hasidism where they have their own police force, they vote as a block ā¦
Brady Dale: They kind of did. So there this arbitration forum-
Jay Kang: Yeah, like when I was on Twitter I used to follow them on Twitter.
Aaron Lammer: Full disclosure, Iām a Jew. So just as Jay has a lot of Korean jokes about Koreans, I have Jew jokes.
Brady Dale: I at least have Kansan jokes.
Aaron Lammer: You can chime in with some comparisons of this to early Christianity. Because this does really seem like we picked ⦠Like, Jesus died, we picked 21 prophets, whatever they say is the word, thatās the word.
Brady Dale: So the ideas was it wasnāt meant to really just be entirely up to them. There was supposed to be a process. There supposed to be this arbitration forum that would take complaints and then they would vet it and then once they agreed, they would take the 21 dudes. That was how itās supposed to work.
Brady Dale: The problem is, EOS had never actually dealt with their whole governance plan when they actually launched. So there were all these people who were like, āI had my tokens stolen.ā There was people who were like, āYeah, we think these guys really did. We think itās true.ā And people were freaking out. Take these people tokens back away for them, donāt let them have been robbed.
Brady Dale: But the block producers were all like, āNone of the conversation is legitimate because nobody has ā¦ā Because there was supposed to be a constitution that sort of designated the process but that never got ratified by anyone. They didnāt really know how to ratify it. But then, there was so much pressure that the block producers were like, āFine, weāll just do it. But this feels like maybe a bad idea.ā And then they did it again later the next month.
Brady Dale: And then what happened is after they did it that time, somebody else put a fake document up on Telegram that purported to be from the arbitration forum, it purported to be proof that certain funds should be moved around. People were like, āI think this is fake.ā Because it just didnāt have anything sorted out.
Aaron Lammer: To be fair, this is what Ethereum did when they rolled back the DAO hack.
Brady Dale: Right.
Jay Kang: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: So they just had one big claim that-
Jay Kang: But they donāt have a-
Aaron Lammer: We lost a bunch of shit.
Jay Kang: They didnāt have a structure. I mean, what youāre describing me is essentially a ⦠This is like the fourteenth metaphor that weāve used for it, but itās like ⦠Youāve all seen the movie Casino?
Aaron Lammer: Yes.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Jay Kang: Yeah, itās like basically, the bosses meet in the back of that ⦠Itās like the mafia. You have different bosses, right. And you can put up complaints to them and you hope that the people will listen to you. And that those people can make things happen for you because you canāt go anywhere else. The only difference is that this is a completely voluntary thing that youāre [inaudible 00:33:23] into and they canāt do anything for you.
Aaron Lammer: And those bosses are supposed to represent the interest of the local bosses in their cities. Theoretically, these 21 are supposed to like-
Jay Kang: How did they flag the 21? Are they like all the cousins of the dude who fucking started Tezos?
Brady Dale: So it is interesting to me. Iām not saying ⦠Iām not necessarily endorsing the mafia metaphor, but itās also interesting that the largest token holder out there-
Aaron Lammer: Cointalk has Brady Dale-
Brady Dale: Yeah, exactly.
Aaron Lammer: Saying Block One is a mafia.
Brady Dale: So hereās the thing-
Jay Kang: Also, theyāre all cousins.
Brady Dale: Hereās the thing, Block One holds 10% of the tokens. So all voting ultimately comes down to token holding, right. So they [inaudible 00:33:58] the tokens, they announce they were going to start voting them soon. I donāt think they have yet. But it is kind of like the big, big boss hasnāt even spoken yet but theyāre going to say something at some point.
Brady Dale: And this is hard to explain, but hereās how the top 21 get hits. If you hold any EOS tokens, you can designate those tokens for voting. And you have to stake them to do it, which is cool because most people are holding on to them, thatās fine. And when you do, you can pick up to 30 block producer candidates you want to vote for. And all your tokens go for all of them.
Brady Dale: So I could vote just for Aaron if I had 100 tokens, they would all go for you. If I voted for Aaron and Jay, you would both get 100 votes. And thereās no way for me to break it up. I canāt give like 30 to you and 50 to you.
Aaron Lammer: You know, usually when we bring up a coin on this show, at a certain point, Jay and I just start buying the coin in the middle of this. I couldnāt be less interested in what you described. Yeah, itās like a crypto that has like a student council election tacked on to it.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Jay Kang: But itās really corrupt.
Aaron Lammer: Iām like, āCan I vote for-ā
Jay Kang: And also, itās highly sensible to misinformation.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: And itās also just like ⦠Itās tough enough to vote for my local congressmen, much less my EOS
Brady Dale: Yeah, 30 strangers, you have no idea who they are, even like where they are. They say theyāre in Canada, I donāt know.
Aaron Lammer: Thatās a real question, though. Is there anyone whoās not a strident libertarian who represent a EOS block?
Brady Dale: Well, no one who a bunch of them ⦠Because one of the complaints, also, is that a lot of these people put all of this effort in the grassroots level to make everything work nice and well. And then a bunch of those people who put a ton of time into making this all happen or nice people didnāt end up in any of the top 21 spots. And they feel like they shouldāve because they did all of this work. And a bunch of entities no one had ever heard of in the larger EOS community, just all of a sudden appeared at like spot 10.
Aaron Lammer: Just like real politics. A bunch of people do grassroots work, and some asshole makes it to Congress.
Brady Dale: So much ⦠Only way more so because it was very clearly like the more tokens you have, the more power you have. So what was obviously the case is you ⦠And you can just see it on the chain, that these stranger who just appeared and got these 21 spots, just had some giant whale vote for them.
Aaron Lammer: Itās just like-
Jay Kang: Evidently, itās got to be like Bernard counts for other people on the board. I bet some of those were not real people.
Aaron Lammer: If I was producing the EOS movie, all like the 21 ⦠What are they called? The validators?
Brady Dale: Block producers is the official name.
Aaron Lammer: The validators would all go to a hotel together and theyād all be like locked ⦠Itās like when they decide the new Pope. The 21 would have to meet and it would be like, they are like cloistered in seclusion until they decide on these vital EOS issues.
Brady Dale: So the fun thing in that ⦠Thatās true. One of their fun thing about it is ⦠And maybe this is good, maybe this is bad. I donāt know. But there is technically an election like every three minutes. Because it just ⦠The system, every time it goes through a full cycle of all 21, it just rechecks what the votes are. So itās like-
Aaron Lammer: Oh, okay. So itās almost like a constant vote of no confidence that you have to survive.
Brady Dale: Yeah, you can be voted out any minute.
Aaron Lammer: Right. Do they change though? Minute to minute, like who the 21 are?
Brady Dale: I think at the low end, they do. Like I was looking, I had been looking lately. I was looking a lot early on and they changed a lot in the early days.
Aaron Lammer: These are minutes of your life youāre never going to get back, monitoring EOS elections.
Brady Dale: I know, I really wish someone, and maybe someone has. I wish somebody was sort of tracking that over time. But yeah, so changes, it changes constantly. But one of the things I donāt understand it, so okay, you got these top 21, it can change any minute, what if you had some really close vote over some crazy thing like freezing accounts or whatever, right?
Aaron Lammer: Yeah.
Brady Dale: But in the time, you guys spent like three hours all emailing over Skype about what to do. The vote was like 11 to 10 and then by the time everyone decided, 2 people were voted out. Does the vote still count? What does everyone decide to do?
Aaron Lammer: I mean, this is like what would happen if Roger [inaudible 00:38:01] was an EOS whale, which is like people would make massive buys and sells that would swing power for a brief moment. Like, do something crazy at a vote and then dump.
Brady Dale: Well, so what Block Oneās saying theyāre going to do is Block One is saying, A, they want to expand it so you can vote for up to like 50 block producers. They want that option. And then what they want to do, since they havenāt voted yet, and the biggest accounts that ⦠People at the top of the voting ranks only have like 3% of the tokens voting for them. Thatās a high level, right.
Brady Dale: So Block One holds 10% of all the EOS tokens out there. So what they say theyāre going to do is find the 50 most technically sound and honest people, and then just vote for 50 legitimate ⦠What they say are legitimate block producers. Any of these would be good. And that basically means if there is bad block producers that have the backing of some whales, since Block One is bigger than all the other whales, those entities will just be shut from the bottom and everyone can effectively only choose from the ones that Block One says you can choose from.
Brady Dale: Which is like maybe nice because they might do really good vetting. But on the flip side, they are ultimately the big boss. Theyāre also saying, āIf weāre not down with you, youāre out.ā
Aaron Lammer: This sounds as complicated are regular poli-
Jay Kang: This is the dumbest thing Iāve heard.
Aaron Lammer: This is as crazy as regular politics, but I donāt quite understand how it improves upon the crisis.
Jay Kang: Yeah, I still donāt understand ⦠And this is not your fault, Brady. I still donāt understand the answer to the question that we started of with, what is governance? What is ⦠I have no idea.
Aaron Lammer: Letās take what is governance from a different angle. What are actual ⦠Itās clearly an elaborate apparatus to give the chained democracy.
Brady Dale: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Aaron Lammer: And I understand that like mining itself, itās really hard to ensure the integrity of a chain.
Brady Dale: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Aaron Lammer: You need a lot of electricity. I understand itās hard. But when I think of what chains have actually decided of importance, the two moments I can think of are, a Ethereum rolling back itās chain to erase the [inaudible 00:40:06] hack, which created a Ethereum classic. And at the time seems pretty wildly unethical, I would say. But history has been pretty kind to it, I feel like. I think, at that moment, [inaudible 00:40:16] said, this is what the community wants. People were like, āWow, that doesnāt seem very decentralized.ā And he was like, āYOLO.ā And people just accepted or weād be talking about ETC now not a Ethereum.
Aaron Lammer: And then the other one is the whole drama around B cash and the failed 2x fork, which is another time in which Bitcoin was going to have to perform a democratic exercise with people voting with mining, and mining was centralized.
Aaron Lammer: So I get the idea that mining is the home of politics in crypto. But this idea that whoās in charge is changing every minute, what issues are they possibly going to-
Brady Dale: And so another issue-
Jay Kang: Logo choice.
Aaron Lammer: Yeah.
Brady Dale: I mean-
Aaron Lammer: I feel like weāre just doing a redesign every day.
Brady Dale: Well, at some point, I mean, at some point theyāve got to decide to move on chain governance onto the chain.
Brady Dale: Another big thing is ⦠And this is true for Tezos, too. They both have this, is some of the inflation is spent on paying people to do things that are good for the system. EOS first needs to have a governance system in place, then they need a referendum system thatās legitimate to make their decisions. So then that referendum system needs to approve a separate government system which they call the worker proposal system. And the worker proposal system is what decides how to spend the money that is accumulating from the inflation to do good things for EOS.
Brady Dale: And again, thereās no rush because if anyone has any great ideas, Block One will just fund it right now.
Aaron Lammer: Okay, so as I see it, the governance is dissolve disputes in the community and the tokens are to recruit more people in the community, incentivize them.
Brady Dale: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Aaron Lammer: So youāve created the Tibetan freedom festival at which people are pushing for every political cause and a bunch of people are like, āWhy are we here? Like, whatās the show? What are we going to do?ā
Jay Kang: [crosstalk 00:42:07].
Brady Dale: For example, it does do transactions super fast, like crazy fast. You can have a really high transaction volume.
Aaron Lammer: Because thereās only 21 validators-
Brady Dale: Right.
Aaron Lammer: Dealing with this enormous chain just bouncing all over the world.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Jay Kang: Is it faster than American Express?
Brady Dale: No. Nope. But for example, I think the first big thing to go on there, and I meant to check before coming to see what was going on with it, and I didnāt. But you know the Everipedia, the Wikipedia competitor thatās going pay you for doing edits in itās crypto token, itās token is powered by EOS.
Jay Kang: No, I was just saying that I have to update my ⦠Because someone told me that something was on it-
Brady Dale: Trying to get Everipedia in free?
Aaron Lammer: You cannot update a Wikipedia entry. It can get flagged.
Brady Dale: Well this is your Everipedia.
Jay Kang: I can update ⦠I can edit my own Wikipedia, right?
Aaron Lammer: Hell nah.
Jay Kang: Really?
Aaron Lammer: Iām banned from Wikipedia for editing the Francis and the Lights Wikipedia page in like 2009.
Jay Kang: Really?
Aaron Lammer: Yeah.
Jay Kang: I think you can edit your own Wikipedia page.
Brady Dale: Well, you can, I mean you donāt-
Aaron Lammer: You definitively canāt. One of the things you can get flagged for is editing your own Wikipedia page.
Brady Dale: Donāt log in and donāt do it from home, I mean ā¦
Aaron Lammer: Iām going to tell you that the EOS constitution is no way ambiguous on this.
Brady Dale: My ex-girlfriend was dating this guy for a while, and I found a Wikipedia page for him, and thereās no way anyone but him wrote that.
Aaron Lammer: Oh, I mean people do it. There was a bunch of scandals where weird edits to Wikipedia pages were coming out of Congressional offices.
Brady Dale: Oh, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: And they tracked what Congressional offices had edited what Wikipedia pages.
Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah Wiki-
Aaron Lammer: Thereās like Congress offices that were editing climate pages.
Brady Dale: But this is Everipedia, not Wikipedia.
Jay Kang: I feel like thereās a lot of action in this. But I also donāt really understand in any way what theyāre doing. If theyāre just like, āWell, we can do fast transactions, but to do a transaction, you have to basically take a purity test and take this 15-part survey and they you have to go out and canvas for EOS for two days.ā Theyāre doing this terrible.
Aaron Lammer: Theyāre doing a Ethereum, right? Basically Ethereum and EOS and Tezos are all fighting to be the chain of record-
Brady Dale: Yeah, theyāre smart.
Aaron Lammer: That powers this decentralized world.
Brady Dale: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: So theyāre basically like all trying to do the same thing, but they have different approaches to how they run internally. One of them is from a company like Block One has an association. Ethereum is like a non-profit foundation. Tezos is this whole other thing.
Aaron Lammer: Theyāre all kind of imagining this same world, they just believe thereās different ways to get there.
Jay Kang: Like ETHworld?
Aaron Lammer: Yeah. Jay, donāt act like you havenāt been to a Ethereum amusement park.
Jay Kang: Oh, I have been there.
Aaron Lammer: Donāt act like you havenāt had some decentralized cotton candy.
Jay Kang: Yeah, Iāve watched a lot of Khan University videos.
Aaron Lammer: Look, EOS amusement park is going to be just as fun and when you have a dispute about being overcharged at the restaurant, youāll have this robust democratic system on it.
Brady Dale: So hereās a fun fact about EOS, it is right now the most active block chain in the world in terms of it has the most transactions going on on it. But the overwhelming majority of those transactions are one guy just sending this message like four million times a day thatās just like, āWe love BM.ā Which stands for Bite Master, which is Dan Larimerās name online. And this guy is just sending this transaction over and over again.
Brady Dale: And the reason you can do that is because you donāt pay per transaction-
Jay Kang: It doesnāt sound like ⦠Actually, breaking news here, somebody that Aaron and I know mutually, told me some dirt on Aaron and his fantasy basketball strategy.
Aaron Lammer: Lammerballs before they changed the algorithm in Yahoo fantasy basketball by changing your lineup and releasing player every night and getting a totally new lineup of players playing that night, you could easily manipulate the sanctity of their fantasy basketball tabulator.
Aaron Lammer: Itās been fixed, donāt try it at home.
Jay Kang: But wasnāt every time-
Aaron Lammer: Itās like a PED.
Jay Kang: You can have like ⦠Going in first and you spend like 45 minutes every night doing this and every night you would send out a message that the only words are āLamer ball.ā This [inaudible 00:46:33] is lamer ball. [crosstalk 00:46:35]
Brady Dale: Only this guy does it four million times a day.
Aaron Lammer: EOS started as an ERC-20 token. These projects are all trying to be the backbone of this central world, computer world. Are they the top three? Would you rank them in terms of the most highest percentage chance of actually achieving this decentralized-
Brady Dale: Well, the thing is I think, I donāt think it will be one. I mean, the thing that weāre starting to see more and more of are people ⦠For example, David Floyd did a good story recently. That it was about this company thatās trying to basically make magical gathering but electronically.
Aaron Lammer: Oh yeah, I saw that.
Brady Dale: Yeah, and so-
Aaron Lammer: Thereās a car that hasnāt even launched and thereās a car thatās worth over 50 thousand dollars.
Brady Dale: Well, thatās a different thing. Thatās Gods Unchained. This was one was like a-
Aaron Lammer: If youāre listening, Gods Unchained, I sent your CEO an email. Come on the show. Donāt be a coward.
Jay Kang: Thatās like a card game thatās on the block chain?
Aaron Lammer: Itās like magic the gathering on the block chain
Brady Dale: But Iām not sure. Itās not right, it was some ⦠No, it was Ether Monster, which is also basically magical gathering. So theyāre going to keep all their ⦠Your cards and your card stacks will stay on Ethereum because itās the most secure. But theyāre going to run the operations on this other chain, Ethereum is way too slow to do it and way too expensive to do it.
Brady Dale: So theyāll create a relationship between the two chains to run those actions when youāre playing the game. And I think weāre going to start seeing a lot more of that. I think if this all works, itās not going to be one chain. And Iām starting to see this with startups I talk to, theyāre like yeah, we have a multi-chain plan. Weāre kind of building it on a few. So I think that probably will be how it works out.
Aaron Lammer: I mean, certainly it gets hard to imagine that the whole thingās going to literally operate on a single block chain. There is some sort of Morris law thing of chains getting faster and faster. And people are going to want to be on the faster chain. Just thinking right now though, it feels like even if thereās multiple chains in the future, someone has to win. Someoneās got to shut Jay up, you know what I mean? Like someoneās got to like achieve some of this stuff that theyāre setting off to do.
Brady Dale: I think thereās two winners. Maybe three. And Iām just sort talking on the top of my head.
Aaron Lammer: Not investment advice for many of us.
Brady Dale: Yeah. So I guess the three big questions in crypto are like, speed, security, and just function as money, right. And so I think you could imagine a world where lets say Ethereum is the one where things really canāt be screwed with. Itās super secure. And it stays kind of slow, but it could do things like storing the really important records that you manage.
Brady Dale: And then something else say, Tezos, is super fast and so you create a bridge between those two things to communicate things so itās a duopoly. And then maybe, like for example, as this stuff becomes super popular, Bitcoin wins as fundamentally money as sort of this standard account of everything.
Aaron Lammer: And then thereās some sort of a miniature lightning-ing that works that actually wrap things quickly.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: And all of the pipe works. I sort of buy that, but I donāt ⦠Okay, I heard about that Gods Unchained. And thatās an ERC-721 token.
Brady Dale: Sounds right. Another one of the AMTs, yeah.
Aaron Lammer: So I guess Iām like, why start over? From EOS, like EOSā Dan Larimer was previously involved in Ripple? No, thatās not right.
Brady Dale: He did block trades in Steam.
Aaron Lammer: Steam, thatās it.
Brady Dale: Yeah.
Aaron Lammer: So these are people whoāve worked on multiple projects. It seems like everyone like sees this problem and theyāre like, āI have to do mine. My own.ā Like, why not build on top of Ethereum?
Brady Dale: Because you donāt get free money that way. I mean, thatās really it. I always ask people this question, they always give me some hustle-y answer, but the truth is, if I do it myself, it will be worth something for a while and I get a bunch of free money. And that allows you to do crazy hustles. Like you can basically pay people to join your network. And obviously, at some point, some smaller number of these have to win. Though, I bet itās going to be a larger number than we expect. But yeah.
Brady Dale: So guys, I super have to run, actually.
Aaron Lammer: Oh, get out. Alright.
Jay Kang: Brady, thank you for coming on the show.
Brady Dale: Thank you.
The official podcast of Bitcoin crashes. Hosted by @aaronlammer and @jaycaspiankang. Mailbag/contact: hi@cointalk.show
The official podcast of Bitcoin crashes. Hosted by @aaronlammer and @jaycaspiankang. Mailbag/contact: hi@cointalk.show