Episode #29: ⚰️ R.I.P. SUMOKOIN

Aaron buries his first love $SUMO and Jay considers whether the whole universe is a money laundering scheme

Coin Talk
Coin Talk
Jun 8, 2018 · 38 min read

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COIN TALK is produced in partnership with Medium and hosted by Aaron Lammer and Jay Caspian Kang. Press “Listen to the story” above to play the episode. (You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, download the MP3, or email us at hi@cointalk.show)


Transcript

Speaker 2: This episode of Coin Talk is tapped Tuesday, June 5th at 5 PM eastern standard time. The bitcoin price index was $7,592.

Aaron Lammer: Jay. In the Crypto Cave

Jay Kang: We are in the Crypto Cave.

Aaron Lammer: I feel like we tapped that life hacker show and it was a whole different vibe in the sunlight.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I know. You were like on one. You had a checklist in your head of things that you had to shill. Sumokoin to the term coin world.

Aaron Lammer: Yes. Actually I have some Sumokoin related news. Some sad Sumokoin related news.

Jay Kang: What I really hope … You know when you look at things on Twitter and you see that someone is trending and you assume that they are dead?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Okay, now it might seem a little bit grim to say, but every time you bring up Sumokoin and say, “I have Sumokoin news.” Or when you text me and say, “We should talk about Sumokoin.” My hope is that it’s dead so that we never have to talk about it.

Aaron Lammer: I’ll say a few things. 1, Sumokoin is not nearly popular enough to get on Twitter trending if it dies. Even people we know who work professionally in coin world have gone a straight blank when I’ve mentioned Sumokoin. People how have dedicated their lives to crypto currencies don’t even know what Sumokoin is.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Should we just get it out of the way and burry Sumokoin?

Jay Kang: Yes, is it dead?

Aaron Lammer: I wouldn’t say it’s like torn to a million pieces, but it is not presently trading.

Jay Kang: Oh really?

Aaron Lammer: Oh yeah, it’s bad.

Jay Kang: They took it off the exchange?

Aaron Lammer: I’m going to put a huge disclaimer out there. None of this is investment advice. If you’ve already bought Sumo, you’ve already disobeyed that warning.

Jay Kang: I do like how this is not investment advice has been creeping up earlier, and earlier in our podcast.

Aaron Lammer: Well, someone emailed me and Max, my co-host on Longform podcast, saying that he had lost a bunch of money based on my Crypto Calls, and could he get a free Longform podcast T-shirt. So I’m sorry-

Jay Kang: The only investment advice we’ve ever given is to fade our picks. To do the opposite of what we-

Aaron Lammer: There’s no short market for Sumokoins.

Jay Kang: That’s true.

Aaron Lammer: I guess to short Sumokoin, you would just delete your Cryptopia account and stay as far away from Micro cap Coin. I wanted to give people a little history of my involvement in Sumokoin. Me and you both got into Crypto around the same time. Maybe me a little bit before you. We started off buying on Coinbase, we eventually migrated to Bit tracks and some part of my curiosity just made me want to go as far down the spiral as I could.

Jay Kang: That’s a very generous way of saying it to yourself.

Aaron Lammer: Thank you.

Jay Kang: You’ve been very kind to yourself there.

Aaron Lammer: Thank you. I got on Cryptopia, I was already a Monera fan, naturally I found the low cap Monera clone that was available on there, Sumo. I’ve been showing it pretty aggressively on this show, I established my futile lordship over the Sumo lands by buying a big bag and I experienced my first moon shot with Sumo.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: You all remember that.

Jay Kang: That’s the actual relevant piece of information here, which is right after you bought it, it went up 10x.

Aaron Lammer: And I had a very significant opportunity to sell it at 9x, 8x, even be happy with a 5x stop loss, and because I had no idea what I was doing I rode it all the way up and I was like, “Well, if it’s 10x now, wait until it gets to 100x.” I saw big stars in my future. So I held onto it and I rode it all the way down, not quite to where I bought it, but to below a 2x. At that point someone kept trying to hack my Cryptopia account, and so I sold it just because I didn’t want to get hacked and then I got into some deep FOMO. Remember when we did our alt season on the campus quad episode?

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Like all the other alt sumo shows, the little life, and so I bought it at like spring high.

Jay Kang: What is spring high?

Aaron Lammer: It wasn’t the 10x high, but it was the high during the alt season fake out that happened.

Jay Kang: Oh yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Very bad decision. Very bad decision.

Jay Kang: Did it crash again?

Aaron Lammer: Oh yeah.

Jay Kang: Just tell me what happened.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so what happened was … I’m sorry, this story is going to take a second just because it’s very complicated. We had a quick mention of Sumo, that they were rebranding as Ryo Coin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, and we decided it was a terrible idea.

Aaron Lammer: A terrible idea, and should have been a red flag that there was something … I took it as a positive sign. I was like, “Oh. Well, they’re doing something. It’s alive and so far someone has redone the logo.” Once I get there, all Hell is breaking loose in the Sumokoin telegram channel.

Jay Kang: How many people are in the Sumokoin telegram channel?

Aaron Lammer: I would say there is like 100 people, but there is like 2 people who are doing most of the talking.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And other people are just yelling at them. Like, “How do I get my coins off the exchange?”

Jay Kang: Oh, okay, so it’s like two people are represented as a Sumokoin.

Aaron Lammer: Kind of, but it’s harder to tell what’s a real representative and what’s a non real representative. All these people’s names are weird 90s AOL handles, to boot. The explanation that was being made in the telegram channel was they had discovered that the developers of Sumokoin were not real people and were puppets. All the accounts were being controlled, there was supposedly four Japanese people, which was actually one Vietnamese guy named, Vu Quang, I believe.

The other people were either fictional characters or one of them was an actual Japanese academic who has no knowledge of Sumokoin. This guy had basically been … I don’t think he was even developing Sumokoin, this is all allegedly, I have no idea what the truth is. He was basically outsourcing the development to God knows who, saying that it was being done by four Japanese people who either didn’t exist or did not have any knowledge of the project, and they brought in an outside developer-

Jay Kang: At what point did they decide to rebrand?

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so I’m going to get to that. They brought in an outside developer, this guy Fire Ice UK, who I think has done some open source Monero stack work. And this guy was behind the rebrand, wanted 30% of the re mined coins in exchange for doing a bunch of work on the code. When he started working on the code he discovered, this is in his accounting, that the six hundred thousand coins for 2018 that were supposed to go to developers, had actually become one million coins, which is to say they were paying themselves …

Not only were the four people one person, that person was paying themselves more than advertised. There was a mutiny in the community, and they split into two factions. One wanting Fire Ice UK to take over the project, he had been part of the Ryo rebrand.

Jay Kang: Was it an actual project? What is the project to take over? This whole thing is a scam?

Aaron Lammer: Just a Monero clone. It’s to keep working on this Monero clone.

Jay Kang: Are people sure that the Monero clone exists?

Aaron Lammer: I mean, yeah it exists, it’s Sumokoin.

Jay Kang: And how do you have any faith that this is anything except a completely bullshit [inaudible 00:09:10] token?

Aaron Lammer: It’s on the RC22.

Jay Kang: No, but-

Aaron Lammer: Oh I see.

Jay Kang: How do you know it’s anything? It’s not just complete vaporware?

Aaron Lammer: We don’t.

Jay Kang: So why are people asking [crosstalk 00:09:19].

Aaron Lammer: So people were asking that in the telegram channel. People were like, “Is it over? Should I dump my coins? Sell them?” People were like, “This is the bottom. If we can recover from this, we can go to the moon.” People would not accept it.

Jay Kang: And by people you mean you.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, people were like, “This could be a great buying opportunity, the revelation of this scam.”

Jay Kang: Oh my God.

Aaron Lammer: So now there is two factions that both claim to be Ryo/Sumokoin. It would have been simpler if these two factions had just chosen one of them to be Sumokoin and one of them to be Ryo coin. Instead, they both claim to represent both Sumo and Ryo coin. It seems to me that a couple days after that trading stopped on Cryptopia and the price is frozen and the people on the telegram are saying that you can’t actually send transfers anymore. Basically both factions are trying to get people to use their, I’m going to mispronounce this word, Damon and Wallet and I don’t understand exactly how that enforces a fork, but they’re both basically trying to create proprietary wallet systems which will define which one controls the project.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Jay seems very interested in this topic.

Jay Kang: No, okay, here’s the question that I have for you. I don’t understand in what world you did not assume that Sumokoin was a scam that did not have real developers. It was all this guy named Vu, who is pretending to be four Japanese people.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so in my opinion looking back, I’m not sure that Vu is a scammer, so much as really incompetent.

Jay Kang: Alright, he is pretending to be four Japanese people-

Aaron Lammer: He had an explanation for that.

Jay Kang: To make a Sumokoin. He is not Japanese, in itself at the very least cultural appropriation.

Aaron Lammer: To be fair, at least one of these fake Japanese people is named Sumoji Tenaka.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but he’s the one-

Aaron Lammer: Which is totally the name in a video game of the Japanese-

Jay Kang: Totally, it’s like Piston Hondo’s brother.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s like the power hitter on the Japanese baseball team in an NES game.

Jay Kang: World NES Baseball. Baseball Stars 2000.

Aaron Lammer: I didn’t think that Sumoji Tenaka was a real person, and obviously I had not done enough research to see if there was any real people associated with … I didn’t even really think that a clone coin needed much development, since it’s just, more or less, tailing on the wind behind Monera.

Jay Kang: I don’t understand how this is not a scam though.

Aaron Lammer: It’s kind of a scam.

Jay Kang: You’re saying that Vu is not a scammer. I think that when you look at the-

Aaron Lammer: It was a long play scam, is what I’m saying.

Jay Kang: When you look at these coins on Cryptopia or these micro cap places … Look, no judgment, I owned a lot of these coins, I never owned Sumo, but that was just because I felt like that was your thing and I wanted you to have your thing.

Aaron Lammer: Thank you.

Jay Kang: But, I just assume they’re all scams.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: What evidence has there been that they’re not all scams? I think that probably … I even kind of thing Litecoin was a scam.

Aaron Lammer: That is what I was going to say. Is Sumokoin more a scam than Litecoin in your opinion? They’re both clones of better known projects.

Jay Kang: Charlie Lee, as far as I could tell, never pretended to be four Japanese people.

Aaron Lammer: That’s true.

Jay Kang: So in that way he has a leg up. However, I would say-

Aaron Lammer: Although ironically, Charlie Lee also sounds like a fake character who was supposed to represent a developer.

Jay Kang: Or a character from a fighting game from 1996. “Charlie Lee.”

Aaron Lammer: “Charlie Lee.”

Jay Kang: I can say it because-

Aaron Lammer: Tiger Boom.

Jay Kang: Tiger Boom?

Aaron Lammer: It’s like an off brand, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter 2 ripoff.

Jay Kang: Charlie Lee with his Tiger Boom. I will say that Litecoin does have some differences with Bitcoin, but not really that much to the point where it actually should matter in any sort of a way. So yeah, I think it’s less of a scam, but look, we’re talking about gradations of stuff.

Aaron Lammer: I think both of them are like, “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if there was another thing that was just like this, but it was cheaper and we could use it for development or whatever?” It seems like a lot of what makes it a scammer nod is the intention of the developer, so I’ll agree with you that it seems like Charlie Lee’s intentions with Litecoin were more noble than Vu Quang’s intentions with Sumokoin, but anyone who is cloning a coin is in some ways just creating a bunch of cloned money and trying to get other people to think it’s valuable, right?

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And so I guess we’re saying if you’re transparent about that, it’s cool, but it’s a scam if you’re lying about it.

Jay Kang: If you pretend to be four people, it’s a scam.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Going onto to scams-

Aaron Lammer: Wait, I have one more thing to say-

Jay Kang: No, please, stop.

Aaron Lammer: I sold most of my bag, but I still have some.

Jay Kang: You still have some.

Aaron Lammer: So it’s not like this story is totally awful.

Jay Kang: You can put it next to [crosstalk 00:14:37].

Aaron Lammer: If you’ve been listening to the show purely for my Sumo updates, don’t unsubscribe. I still have my bag, hold onto your bag. Oh, one other thing is I did try to get them to make me the new leader of Sumokoins.

Jay Kang: What did they say?

Aaron Lammer: I could not get any traction in the telegram room.

Jay Kang: Yeah, well I would have supported that.

Aaron Lammer: Do you think if I would have became the leader of Sumo it would spike immediately?

Jay Kang: No.

Aaron Lammer: Based on my high profile?

Jay Kang: No. I think some ripple of people, who you are now the king of, would maybe buy it. Alright, so moving on. Monster … This is another scam I think. Do you remember Monster cables?

Aaron Lammer: I’m using some in this room.

Jay Kang: Okay, I always assume they were a scam because it’s the type of thing where you used to go to Best Buy and you would buy a new TV or DVD player or something like that and the guy would be like, “Would you like the warranty?” And you’re like, “No, I know that’s a scam.” And they’re like, “Would you like some Monster cables and pay $115 for the blue and red things that connect your TV?” I always just assumed it was a scam. Why would it actually matter what the build quality of those cables are? They cost like 15 times more than the regular cables that you get.

Aaron Lammer: To be fair, all of the cables at Best Buy are overpriced.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but not a $115 for a HDMI cord or something like that.

Aaron Lammer: That’s correct, that’s correct.

Jay Kang: And so Monster I always thought was a scam, however, Monster in their spirit of … You know much more about audio stuff than I do. Electronics.

Aaron Lammer: You know that Monster were the people who were originally the developers of the Beats headphones?

Jay Kang: Yes, I do know that.

Aaron Lammer: So they already missed out on one moon shot.

Jay Kang: Yeah. Well they made enough money selling dumb cords with little gold tips to idiots at Best Buy, so I don’t feel that bad for them. They are launching an ICO of three hundred million dollars.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I have read through some of the description of it and it seems to literally be a Disney bucks project in which you can buy Monster stuff with the Monster ICO.

Aaron Lammer: I almost don’t know when we have to stop covering these things because they’re all so transparently pointless.

Jay Kang: That is my question out if it, right? Which is, essentially is there a point where the public is no longer snowed in by any of this? Is there a point where this stops working? Do you think that this is going to work at all? What do you think the CMO or the CEO of these companies is thinking when they are doing something that is as transparently stupid and pointless as this that is essentially a one time cash grab?

Aaron Lammer: Well it’s not stupid if you get the three hundred million dollars.

Jay Kang: Something that is just a cash grab.

Aaron Lammer: Heres how I think of it. I think a lot of people don’t really know where the ICO is going as a fundraising technique. There is probably some business consultants out there who are like, “Look, you guys need to raise some money. This is how you would do it traditionally, you have to go do a dog and pony show at all these banks and family investment offices and the terms are going to be owneress and they’re going to want a board seat.” I don’t really know that much about this world.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Then they’re like, “Or you can just issue some Disney bucks and get suckers to give it to you. Which one of those is preferable?” If you can easily raise money, you just raise money. We saw this with telegrams, people just want to give you money, take the money. But if it’s going to be hard to get the money, and there’s a bunch of people who would buy your token out there … It reminds me a little bit of the era of Uber, where Uber came in and just started disobeying regulation, and then everyone behind them who was starting startups were like, “Oh yeah, that’s the growth hacker way. Just don’t obey the rules. Start things that don’t obey the rules.”

It seems like, for this kind of fundraising and ICO is at best shakily legal as a way to raise money, and it seems like people are just like, “Hey, that’s the future. A no rules race.”

Jay Kang: What would incentivize anyone to buy the Monster ICO?

Aaron Lammer: Look, I bought Sumokoin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but that was because things like Z Classic and other clone privacy coins were moon shoting, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, but look how well the telegram sale did. It just sold out to a bunch of rich people.

Jay Kang: But that was pretty adjacent to Crypto in general too.

Aaron Lammer: I’m just saying named products have done well.

Jay Kang: But those are Crypto products. Monster headphones, or whatever it is now, are absolutely no connection to Cryptos. It’s just a random electronics company.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s a stretch.

Jay Kang: Here’s the other thing that I don’t quite understand, which is, you know when you go to Target and you’re in the aisle and there’s all these cards and you have no idea what the cards are for so it’s like a $15 gift card to Applebee’s that you can buy?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: First of all, what the fuck is that?

Aaron Lammer: I’ve stared at those for a while too.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: It’s also like, some of those things you wouldn’t give this as a gift, per se.

Jay Kang: $15 to Applebee’s? They stock it so obviously they feel like somebody might buy it at some point, but is that a money laundry technique? I have no idea who would buy some of these cards.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so this brings up an interesting topic that I’ve wanted to talk to you about on this show.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Have you ever checked out Purseio?

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, so for people who are listening, Purseio is basically this service where you want something on Amazon, you list that you want it and what percent discount you’re willing to buy it at in Bitcoin, and then you send in Bitcoin, someone buys it with their Amazon credit and sells it to you at seventy-five, eighty cents on the dollar and you’ve paid in Bitcoin and they’ve paid in Amazon, they pocket the Bitcoin. This is also not some dark website, this is like an IOS app that you can do this from.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Is there any explanation for why this exits other than money laundering?

Jay Kang: I don’t know. Somebody might have jacked a surplus of Amazon credit or something.

Aaron Lammer: How could you have that much Amazon credit? Also, it’s not like one person has all the Amazon credit, it’s like lots of people running lots of transactions.

Jay Kang: Of course that’s money laundering.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s text book money laundering.

Jay Kang: People saying, “Well the people want to consolidate Bitcoin.” They could just buy Bitcoin with the money that they spend on Amazon credit. That makes no sense.

Aaron Lammer: Store credit has always been a potent money laundering tool.

Jay Kang: Is it used? Because I would understand it if there’s a massive shortage of Bitcoin that you could buy, but there isn’t. You know what I mean? You can buy it on Coinbase right now, if you want.

Aaron Lammer: Well what it is, is the stuff is not used, it’s new. It’s shipped directly from Amazon to you. It works exactly like a normal Amazon transaction. There is not a shortage of Bitcoin, but there is a shortage of Bitcoin that is not attached to know your customer records. So if you do this transaction, and send the person Bitcoin, there is no record of that Bitcoin purchase.

Jay Kang: Oh, so it’s laundering.

Aaron Lammer: It’s clean Bitcoin is what it is. And you can go buy Bitcoin for a buck over at Coinbase. This is like unanamo Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: Okay, so that’s money laundering.

Aaron Lammer: It’s interesting, it’s kine of cleaning the Bitcoin and coin scrambling it. It’s like, “Where did that Bitcoin came from?” Well, it came from a swap for Amazon credit.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I think this is a fascinating world, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some revelation that a quarter of the Bitcoin transactions going on were like weird money laundering swaps like this.

Jay Kang: Toilet paper headphones or Apple chargers or something like that.

Aaron Lammer: The best thing to do is on a big ticket item where you can get a huge discount, right? If you go and buy a computer for two grand, you can get like twenty percent off by paying in Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: You can do that?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you can buy anything that’s listed on Amazon.

Jay Kang: And it’s totally legal?

Aaron Lammer: That I cannot comment on.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: It totally works. I can guarantee that people I know who have used it, have gotten the products.

Jay Kang: I actually remember … Oh, my point was, I actually thank you for that diversion, because I did not know about that very well, but I had heard about it.

Aaron Lammer: Jay has just ordered some stuff on Purseio.

Jay Kang: My point was, and this is the last thing I want to say about these ICOs that these companies are doing, what is the difference between what they’re offering and the $15 Applebee’s card that you get at Target, that you don’t get, but everyone has seen at Target and puzzled about being like, what the fuck is that? There’s no difference, right? They’re just essentially offering a Disney buck.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I just don’t get it. I don’t understand how this is even a … I don’t understand, other than to dupe really stupid people, how this is a fundraising technique for these companies.

Aaron Lammer: So you don’t get any ownership of the company? You just get free money?

Jay Kang: Yeah, you get like money to buy Monster stuff.

Aaron Lammer: At a discount?

Jay Kang: Unclear.

Aaron Lammer: Also, how much Monster stuff do you really need? Unless you’re in the Crypto Cave, which is replete with one thousand cords. Yeah, I’m very interested in the whole world of those prepaid cards and money cards, because I think that’s, in many ways, the universe that Crypto is creeping out of.

Jay Kang: Yeah, not according to the Jack’s Liberty vision.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, or the hole they’re going to jump into, but clearly there is some use for these cards that hold value for specific store, because you see those everywhere now.

Jay Kang: I know, and I kind of get it for Amazon.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you give it to your grandson for Christmas, it’s Amazon.

Jay Kang: I swear to God they have it for stuff like Kmart and Walmart and Sears.

Aaron Lammer: Even those make sense. Starbucks makes sense. What I don’t get is when you see the super specific one for a store that you’d shop at once every ten years.

Jay Kang: Like Levis or something like that.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Which I think I’ve seen that card too. And why do they sell them all at Target? Who is going to buy a … Could you imagine getting a present and it’s like $150 Levis card? And you’re just like, “What am I going to do with this? Why didn’t you just give me $150?” It is a very bizarre thing. And you know what? I’m convinced right now from us talking about it, that it’s all money laundering. I feel like the Applebee’s cards are money laundering cards.

Aaron Lammer: I’m going to inject a new conspiracy into it, which is, do you know what green dot cards are?

Jay Kang: No.

Aaron Lammer: Green dot is the one that’s for sale that’s just money-money. You can swipe it like a debit card. Instead of it being Kmart credit, it’s just like you pay fifty bucks and you get like forty-two bucks on a debit card.

Jay Kang: What?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s crazy.

Jay Kang: Who would ever do that?

Aaron Lammer: People who don’t have, well like homeless people. People who don’t have any-

Jay Kang: For what? To buy airline tickets?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, to do things that you can only buy with a swipe able card. Green dot cards were really popular. They’re also popular in prison.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: They’re traded and they’re literal stores of value.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: I think they got investigated and I don’t know if green dot itself, but green dot S cards have all gotten shut down because they’re just obviously used for money laundering. So I wonder if the explosion in the Applebee’s cards is to replace some of the vacuum of the green dot style cards that you can’t do anymore. You’re not really supposed to just issue a money card that’s just anonymous, no know your customer, untraceable money. Visa does do those prepaid debit cards, but I think those are a link to your identity in some way.

Jay Kang: So when did green dot cards end?

Aaron Lammer: I don’t think they’re like totally over, they’ve just gotten investigated a bunch of times and a bunch of them have gotten shut down. Here’s a popular scam. I don’t even have to surprise you with this one. You start up a greed dot style company, sell a bunch of cards, turn off the network, none of them are worth money anymore.

Jay Kang: Yeah, that’s very efficient.

Aaron Lammer: Very Crypto, it’s a very Crypto move.

Jay Kang: Yeah. You don’t have to set up four fake Japanese aliases at all there. You just shut it off.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it seems like a lot of the Crypto scam ideas are just updates on pre-Crypto scams.

Jay Kang: Oh yeah. Like weird gambling world scams.

Aaron Lammer: One of my favorite, I’m sorry as long as we’re on [inaudible 00:27:32] credit, one of my favorite Longform journalism stories ever is the story about a bunch of Irish travelers, you know travelers. They’re kind of the gypsies of Ireland but they’re not actually ethnically gypsies.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: They came to America and ran this scam that netted over a million dollars in Home Depot credit, where they would go to a Home Depot, buy up two hundred cheap sinks that almost looked exactly like really expensive sinks and they had a barcode printer. Then they would go to a Home Depot in another state, return them all with the fancy sink Barcode on them. So they would spend like ten thousand dollars, get back like two hundred thousand dollars in Home Depot credit, and then they would sell that to loca contractors like eighty cents on the dollar, because contractors will always buy Home Depot credit.

Contractors is another money laundry, cash based world.

Jay Kang: Oh they were selling their Home Depot credit?

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: Wow.

Aaron Lammer: So they would turn cash into sinks, the sinks into way more Home Depot credit, and then trade that back for cash.

Jay Kang: How much money did they-

Aaron Lammer: They netted over a million dollars in three months.

Jay Kang: Oh my God. That’s an amazing scam.

Aaron Lammer: They were caught by this one dogged Home Depot investigator.

Jay Kang: Fuck that guy.

Aaron Lammer: He was like, “I’ll take them down.”

Jay Kang: Whoa. That’s a great scam.

Aaron Lammer: It’s a great scam.

Jay Kang: Here’s my other question; how were they not caught very easily? It seems like it would be very easy to catch them where you’re just like, “Okay, these guys bought this sink. These same guys brought these sinks back. Let’s just trace them.”

Aaron Lammer: Home Depot is another place that has no, know your customer policies. This is partially because contracting is a shady, non tax big world.

Jay Kang: Oh, so they just bought cash.

Aaron Lammer: They would go and buy them with cash in one state, return them for credit in another state. One of the big Home Depot things is that you can always return anything with a receipt. So, when the return would come in, no one would know where the sinks were from. And so there is no national network of Home Depots to be like, where did those sinks come from? Then they’d pop up three states over and pull the scam again.

Jay Kang: Oh, wow.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, they were pretty good. They were all living out of a van together.

Jay Kang: The thing that I’m more impressed with than these Irish roamers or whatever they’re called.

Aaron Lammer: Travelers.

Jay Kang: Travelers. Is how shady Home Depot is.

Aaron Lammer: This is what I’m saying. Anything where you’ve got these cash credit economies … Money laundering is worth 20 to 30% of the money. So wherever you can take money in and out of cash. Into Bitcoin, into Monero, any of those transforms are worth a 20, 30% premium, which is a lot of money in many of these cases.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Hey, speaking of a lot of money, do you remember when Kik did that ICO last year?

Jay Kang: Yes.

Aaron Lammer: So Kik, which is a messaging app, some might say it’s the poor cousin of Telegram, raised a hundred million dollars and in an ICO with their own token, which I believe is called, confusingly, Kin. I think Brady Dale actually talked about this.

Jay Kang: Yeah, we had no idea why Kik and Kin were different.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, he talked about Kin for like two minutes, before me and you were like, “Excuse me, what is the relationship between Kin and Kik?”

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: The guy who is the head of Kik was at some kind of a conference this week and was basically negging the Blockchain. He was like, “Yeah, I don’t know if it’s really that useful for very much.” He was like, “Maybe for currencies, but doing anything else on the Blockchain seems like a huge pain in the ass.”

Jay Kang: Fair, fair.

Aaron Lammer: I feel like that’s maybe what happens when you’ve hit the open bar a little bit before you go onto the panel. But it doesn’t bring up the question of how many of these people who are raising money for previously non Blockchain ventures, do-

Jay Kang: You mean like Monster-

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. Launching them, do all those people actually believe in the Blockchain.

Jay Kang: No, I don’t think so.

Aaron Lammer: And working on the Blockchain?

Jay Kang: Look, the theme of today’s show seems to be scams and whether or not we can take these things in good faith or not and I would argue over and over again, that we should just assume bad faith.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: It is a huge cash opportunity. I don’t think that all the people are like, “Ha, ha, ha. I’m going to cashout and I’m going to end up in St. Kit.” But I do think that they say, “Well, this is legal right now and we do plan on being a huge company.”

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: “Is there a tiny bit of scamming to what we’re doing? Yes. But will the people eventually profit? Yes.”” I think that probably best case scenario for what people kind of think. I don’t think that people go in with eyes completely blind and say, “This is the best way to raise money and we’re doing this because we think the Blockchain is great. It’s the future and we are …” I’m not talking about coin projects. I’m talking about existing companies that are ICO-ing. You do remember one of the first shows we did, we talked about Kodak Coin?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Yeah, what the fuck happened to Kodak Coin? Guess what happened? It was a scam. I don’t know if it exists or does not exist, but even that at least had a use case, remember? Because it was going to be used to use the Blockchain to do photo rights, or something like that.

Aaron Lammer: Who fucking knows.

Jay Kang: I just can’t imagine that any of these companies are doing this in complete good faith.

Aaron Lammer: Can I ask you a question? We talked about Sumo, we talked about Monster, we talked about Kik. None of them seem like they’re in good faith. Does all of this bad faith Crypto stuff make you believe in Bitcoin?

Jay Kang: It has no effect.

Aaron Lammer: Okay. I think, ultimately for me, seeing all these people try all these other things makes me go, “Wow, Bitcoin seems like a really good idea comparatively.”

Jay Kang: Yeah, for me it has absolutely no effect. It seems like it’s a completely … It’s almost like something is happening with the same name, but is not the same things and is happening in another state or something like that.

Aaron Lammer: Apples to oranges.

Jay Kang: Huh?

Aaron Lammer: Apples to oranges in your opinion?

Jay Kang: Yeah, it feels like its similar things but the people who are invested in Bitcoin, they don’t really care that Monster is doing some bullshit ICO, you know? Even the big money Wall Street investors, who are investing in Bitcoin and real Blockchain projects, if somebody is doing a bullshit thing it’s a little bit annoying, but I don’t think that it changes anything. It’s not like the people are interfacing with any of the real Bitcoin people at all.

Aaron Lammer: I was caught up in the Blockchain hype, and what a lot of people feel like they’re saying when they speak honestly, like this guy from Kik when he’s like, “I think Blockchain is a really effective way to issue a currency, and it may not be that useful for much else.”

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: The fact that people are trying other things and keep coming back to currencies and Bitcoin is the leading currency, does seem to suggest that first time magic. The formula was hit upon. It wasn’t just Blockchain. It was this whole system that Satoshi hit upon and no one has been able to come up with a better idea in the last ten years, even knowing what Satoshi’s idea was.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: He came up with that idea in a vacuum, and you can’t get a better idea even by copying him.

Jay Kang: Yeah. That sounds kind of bad for Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: Okay, I see how you can read-

Jay Kang: There’s been no innovation since this ray of doom [crosstalk 00:35:23].

Aaron Lammer: Both directions.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: Can we go back to making fun of ripple on this show?

Jay Kang: No.

Aaron Lammer: Why do you have a sponsorship deal in the works?

Jay Kang: No, but I do feel like it’s better to have Ripple people as listeners.

Aaron Lammer: I still want them to listen. We have to give them the good cop, bad cop.

Jay Kang: Okay, I’ll be good cop.

Aaron Lammer: We rile them up and then we insult them, then we flatter them.

Jay Kang: I’ll be good cop. Ask that question again.

Aaron Lammer: Jay, am I allowed to make fun of Ripple anymore?

Jay Kang: Oh man, you know we better not.

Aaron Lammer: But Jay, it’s centralized.

Jay Kang: I understand that, but the Ripple people, they listen too. It’s like Michael Jordan said, “Republicans buy sneakers too.”

Aaron Lammer: Is this country fried Jay? I don’t even know what this voice is. It’s like mid-western Ripple fan.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Alright, so we’ve given Ripple some shit. We decided when they gave us shit back and [inaudible 00:36:29] mentions, we should hear them out. We did a great interview with a Ripple fan.

Jay Kang: That was very Trumpian by the way. Great interview by me.

Aaron Lammer: Great questions, many people are saying it was great.

Jay Kang: Yeah, exactly.

Aaron Lammer: Jay didn’t listen to it. Sad.

Jay Kang: I did listen to it. Very charming British guy.

Aaron Lammer: After we posted that, our mentions on Twitter are 100% about Ripple. It’s just like Ripple people high fiving each other. Tipping each other. Oh, shouts to all the Ripple tips we got. We both are now holding a lot of Ripple.

Jay Kang: How much Ripple did you get?

Aaron Lammer: I think we got like 20 or 30 Ripple.

Jay Kang: Really? So how much money is that?

Aaron Lammer: It’s not a collective pot either. Me and you each tipped it individually and I got more tips than you.

Jay Kang: Okay.

Aaron Lammer: I’m just saying, we don’t pool tips and then split them at the end of the shift in Ripple. We each take our own Ripple tips. We’re agreed on that, right?

Jay Kang: No. No, no, no.

Aaron Lammer: You’re going to have to bet me to get this Ripple off of me.

Jay Kang: Okay, I don’t care about the Ripple thing, go ahead.

Aaron Lammer: Alright, so I was shocked by what a unified body these Ripple people are. They like move as a group, they move as a tribe. Whether you think of it as a beautiful, friendly tribe, or an angry mob, they move in lock step and I think that probably has something to do with the fact that Ripple, XRP was put out by the company, Ripple. It has a more unified face. One if the things I like about Bitcoin, is you can kind of project whatever world view you have onto it. You could be a socialist who’s into Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: I don’t think you can.

Aaron Lammer: You can’t?

Jay Kang: No, I don’t think you can.

Aaron Lammer: Why not?

Jay Kang: Because the whole point of it is to destabilize [inaudible 00:38:17] currency and emergency spending so that you get cut down on things like entitlements and welfare, for example.

Aaron Lammer: That’s the safe amuse version of Bitcoin [crosstalk 00:38:30].

Jay Kang: That also the white paper version of Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: That’s true. It’s true.

Jay Kang: I don’t know any socialist Bitcoiners, except for those dudes at the New Inquiry, or something like that, and they also think that Bitcoin is stupid, they just find it to be useful.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, shouldn’t those guys be standing for Monero really anyway? That’s what they’re mining.

Jay Kang: I don’t even know if they are still mining Monero, but I think for a while they were. I also say, regarding the Ripple thing, I don’t know if it necessary because it’s all centralization. This might be two sides of the same coin though. I think that part of it is because all of them buy into Ripple for the same exact reason. It’s not that it’s like one company, it’s like one product, and it’s one ideology. It is literally, there is only one real reason to like Ripple, so if you’re the type of person who likes coins for that reason, then you’re going to like Ripple and then the people around you are going to be like minded and you’re going to be like, “Wow, it’s so pragmatic.” You know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: “I can imagine the world in which it’s in.” All arguments you and I had and talks that we had and points that we chalked up for Ripple, I don’t know, a year ago or something like that?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I think that’s part of the reason why the move as a hive.

Aaron Lammer: One of the things that really fascinated me about my experience in Ripple land, was you made the analogy to MLS fans, Major League Soccer fans.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: Which is, I would say, deeply insulting. And the Ripple people took it as a compliment.

Jay Kang: What?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, they were like, “It’s kind of right on. That is how we see ourselves.” Most people are like, “MLS is going to overtake the premier league in a decade? Yeah right.” And it’s a long shot dream but someone’s got to believe in it in Seattle.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Aaron Lammer: And I think that’s how the Ripple fans see themselves. I think sports is a really good way to understand Tribalism and Crypto. I think people pick a team for whatever reason, these Ripple people pick it because of the way they feel about bank transfers, Bitcoin people feel a certain way about eating all meat or whatever. You pick your team, and you just have to dig in your heels and really fight for that team. Which is interesting to me, because this is not how people outside of Crypto think of Crypto. People think, “Oh someone is into Crypto or not into Crypto.” But within Crypto, it seems almost impossible not to have a strong, tribal, team based identity.

Jay Kang: Well what team are you on?

Aaron Lammer: I was on team Sumo, but we just got relegated below the first division, so I’m on team Monero really.

Jay Kang: You aren’t really in team Sumo, you were always on team Privacy Coin.

Aaron Lammer: Well, we’re like coin moderates, where we can stomach a little diversity of coin.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but even from the very beginning you were into Privacy Coins.

Aaron Lammer: I was, yes. Yeah.

Jay Kang: I would say that your interests mostly lay in Privacy coins.

Aaron Lammer: You can see the same thing in Ripple. A lot of people are Ripple. There’s some Stellar people in there, because Stellar is the original founder of Ripple, is a Stellar person. So it’s not like you can’t have a second or a third coin, but you have this strong coin identity, and I think it must be really hard to shift those coin identities.

Jay Kang: Yeah, I’m just trying to think about what my coin identity was. I don’t know if I had one.

Aaron Lammer: As soon as there’s, “Fuck you guys, I’m going home.” Coin, you can like … Your coin identity is exiting the market.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Your coin identity is Fiat currency.

Jay Kang: [crosstalk 00:42:14].

Aaron Lammer: US dollars. I believe your coin identity is Amazon stock.

Jay Kang: Amazon stock? That’s true.

Aaron Lammer: I do think that’s an interesting way to see this whole world. Remember when we were starting off, we were like, “Well, what is the psychology of these new buyers going to be? They’re going to go from Bitcoin to Ethereum and Litecoin and Coin Banks, they’ll eventually go to Bittrack.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: So what is the psychology of this tribal, sports fan based-

Jay Kang: Yeah, you know, that’s actually an interesting thing because we haven’t talked about that in a long time, and part of the reason is because you and I don’t talk about the market anymore.

Aaron Lammer: We should.

Jay Kang: And we don’t talk about buying and selling as much anymore, and I think that there is two reason for that. The first is that we got bored of talking about the market.

Aaron Lammer: Well, because we lost money.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but also because the market has been pretty flat.

Aaron Lammer: It was fun to talk about while it was going on.

Jay Kang: Yeah, and it was fun to talk about when it was crashing.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: But it is not fun to talk about when it is just totally flat and just kind of gets-

Aaron Lammer: Well, there’s no news. I have to start off every episode and be like, “Jay, Bitcoin, still around seventy-five hundred this week.”

Jay Kang: So the one thing that we do know is that there is a flood of people that came in, in November and December.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, Thanksgiving babies.

Jay Kang: And they exhibit a pattern of behavior that was very easily trackable for anybody who is in Crypto for longer than them.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Some of those people are still around, right?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Some of those people are still interested in Crypto, and I feel like I have no idea what they’re doing. Are they just sitting on coins and waiting for the next bull run? That’s kind of what I’m doing. I have a small amount of coin, and some Fiat and I’m just waiting for things to shake out. Or have they sort of joined some of these tribes? Have they found, as they do research, as they get more and more into it think we can charitably say that a lot of these people are probably very smart, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: Do they find something that they believe in, and they just sort of become part of those next tribes?

Aaron Lammer: One thing I have always wondered is, can you buy … If you bought Ripple at three dollars, and really believed in it and now it’s at sixty cents, would you stay in that tribe?

Jay Kang: No, but I don’t think that the people are Ripple stands did that. Because the amount of time where Ripple was at three dollars was very short lived.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: And the amount of time that it went from eight cents to twenty cents was very, very long lived, you know?

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: You and I both could have bought Ripple at twenty fucking cents, you know? I think we both did buy Ripple at twenty cents.

Aaron Lammer: I think if we had bought Ripple at twenty cents, we would have still been wrecked to Bitcoin thought. Bitcoin has gone up more than Ripple in that space.

Jay Kang: It went up 10x?

Aaron Lammer: No, Ripple’s at like sixty cents now dude.

Jay Kang: No, I’m talking about the spike to three dollars.

Aaron Lammer: Oh yeah, if we had sold the [inaudible 00:45:12].

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Well you can see what my track record is on selling double digit multiples, high.

Jay Kang: I sold zero, I think I sold zero-

Aaron Lammer: Even my fantasy scenarios I assume that I ride it all the way up and all the way down. I’m just like, “It would have been thrilling to break even after a wild rollercoaster.”

Jay Kang: That is true. That actually did happen, where you could not conceive of a world in which you sold the top.

Aaron Lammer: I don’t even think about selling tops anymore, but I do think that Crypto generations are real, and I think that first wavers are more fanatical and more tribe than second wavers, so I think Bitcoin has actually been moderated by its own popularity.

Jay Kang: Yeah, but now it’s on its 15th wave.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it’s like each wave the Bitcoin cash fork washed out a few crazies. A few people became ETH Maximalist when ETH came out and the people who are left over are being diluted by new people who are more reasonable than them, and less knowledgeable than them.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: I guess what I’m asking is, starting from that tribal standpoint, and moving towards a more moderate world view, where does that psychology lead you as an investor?

Jay Kang: I’m not really a Crypto investor.

Aaron Lammer: Well, I’m not really a journalist, but we both pretend to be.

Jay Kang: Alright. I think that it makes me less excited about the market because I want a rationality, right? I want massive spikes, I want this market to behave in ways that the stock market does not. Otherwise, if it’s just about reasonable gains over time, there are a lot more stable things and a lot less shady things to invest in that have clear tax codes, and which don’t require you to worry every single time that the whole things is gone.

Aaron Lammer: Is that a little bit the poker player in you also, where you’re like, “If people aren’t going to be betting crazy at this table-”

Jay Kang: I’m out.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, if everyone is going to be play pretty conservatively well, let me find another table.

Jay Kang: Yeah, because what is the point of investing in Crypto if it’s not spiking wildly or if there is no potential for it to spike wildly? Is it to use it? No, no one would argue that it’s to use it. Even Saifedean Ammous would be like, “No you should get it at store value.” But if there is no reason right now to buy it at store value, you might as well not buy it as store value, because you can assume that later on you might be able to buy more.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: That’s sort of where I am right now with it, where I don’t see a psychological reason why in the next few months it will spike. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it will ever spike, or it won’t spike maybe even this year, but I just have a hard time trying to figure out what’s going to cause it to jump. The fact that it is stable, the fact that it is behaving a lot more like a reasonable thing right now, does sort of bring more credence to the idea that a lot of the things that were happening with price spiking over the past six months, seven months, were due to mass market manipulation.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, you really want that to be true.

Jay Kang: Yeah, the DOJ is investing-

Aaron Lammer: You and the DOJ just won’t let go of this idea. No, I think that’s right. People have been like, “Bitcoin won’t have arrived until it’s stable for a long time.” But I don’t think that many people have actually thought through what a stable Bitcoin world is.

Jay Kang: I agree. That’s true. They’re just saying some words there. They happen also to be right I think.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: The reality is that stable Bitcoin means that we’re between six and eight thousand dollars for maybe like nine months.

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: That’s not a bad thing I don’t think.

Aaron Lammer: One of the things that, I think Marty Bent tweeted this, about how as societies like Venezuela, economy crash, people convert their money into Bitcoin, the whole idea of central planning becomes pointless so people aren’t using your currency. You can’t centrally plan Bitcoin. If enough people in those markets start pushing into them, and we have Zimbabwe, Venezuela, or whatever, there almost become a shadow world economy that’s the linked economy of Venezuela, Zimbabwe and these places where people are holding a lot of their wealth in Bitcoin, and in that case, I think stability is better and in some ways … I know we’ve been worried about this world where these futile overlords hold ten percent of the world’s wealth in a bunker. A stable Bitcoin and a flow from crashing currencies into Bitcoin is a different narrative outcome that could occur.

I don’t know if people in those countries have enough money to actually get much of the Bitcoin that instead, is going to go to Peter Teal, but it’s an interesting scenario to play out.

Jay Kang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Maybe Peter Teal actually wants that to happen and maybe he doesn’t consolidate because it just means if he doesn’t steal all the Bitcoin then his Bitcoin is worth more.

Aaron Lammer: Well, the best hedge against Bitcoin tyranny, is to spread the Bitcoin out and have small individual investors invested in Bitcoin. So everyone do your part. By a little Bitcoin. That includes you, Jay.

Jay Kang: Yeah. I do have a … I think you’re right. At some point they have to understand that too much consolidation will lead to a drop in adoption.

Aaron Lammer: Yes.

Jay Kang: And there is an optimized place where they can be like extremely wealthy and still have the thing work.

Aaron Lammer: Right.

Jay Kang: And have a bunch of worthless Bitcoin.

Aaron Lammer: I mean, it doesn’t really matter what the price of Bitcoin is if you’re in Venezuela and you’re trying to get out of the Bolivar, you’re going to buy it. I still think no matter what the price of Bitcoin, these sort of economic shifts are there, but I think that not the first or second, but the fifteenth country that has hyper inflation and goes to Bitcoin, that starts to become the actual market for Bitcoin. I don’t know how much of the world right now is that.

Jay Kang: Warrant, those two countries do a lot of business between one another.

Aaron Lammer: Right.

Jay Kang: And that this is an affinity point between two countries that might not have any sort of affinity point before. It opens a new pathway for new economy stuff.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah, it will be interesting to see if countries really go Bitcoin. Will they have Bitcoin trade agreements? You could see Central America going Bitcoin and then having open Bitcoin borders. Sort of in the same way that the Euro functioned.

Jay Kang: Sure.

Aaron Lammer: And the Euro is falling apart right now while this is happening. I think actually, if there is one thing that has been a positive story for Bitcoin this week, it was the collapse of the Italian bond market, in relation to the politics that are happening there. If truly the Euro were to split apart, the Euro is the closest to a utopian cross boarder currency that we’ve come up with.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: Exciting times to live in.

Jay Kang: Yeah.

Aaron Lammer: So you’re not buying though?

Jay Kang: No.

Aaron Lammer: What would make you buy?

Jay Kang: I don’t know.

Aaron Lammer: Really good news?

Jay Kang: I think that … Two things would make me buy. The first would be that if some sort of sustained upward motion and spike and interest in Bitcoin. If it dropped to three thousand I would insta buy.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah.

Jay Kang: I don’t care what the news is. It could be like … Someone could come out with an article that said that every single Bitcoin ever used was done for murder or drugs. And then I would think about it, but any reasonable amount of news that came out that dropped it to three thousand, I would just insta buy at three thousand.

Aaron Lammer: I think I know what’s going to get you back into Bitcoin.

Jay Kang: What?

Aaron Lammer: Pursio purchasing.

Jay Kang: Buy a bunch of dumb rugs and sound equipment, camera lenses.

Aaron Lammer: Yeah. Alright cool. We’ll back again next week.

Coin Talk

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Coin Talk

The official podcast of Bitcoin crashes. Hosted by @aaronlammer and @jaycaspiankang. Mailbag/contact: hi@cointalk.show

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About this PODCAST

CoinTalk

Come ride the crypto rollercoaster with hosts Aaron Lammer and Jay Kang (and guests) as they laugh their way through the week in Bitcoin and beyond.

Come ride the crypto rollercoaster with hosts Aaron Lammer and Jay Kang (and guests) as they laugh their way through the week in Bitcoin and beyond.

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