Malicious Hooligan: interview with Slava Mogutin.
Slava Mogutin on his exile from Russia, queer imagery as activism, and how to get Allen Ginsberg to help you apply for political asylum
This interview was conducted on the podcast She’s In Russia. If you prefer to listen, here you go:
Olivia: [Singing to the tune of Hava Nagila] Slava, Mogutin Slava, Mogutin Slava, Mogu…
[Intro music — Shit Happens by Tierra Whack]
Smith: From St. Petersburg and Brooklyn this is She’s In Russia. I’m Smith.
Olivia: And I’m Lily.
Smith: So what’s today’s episode?
Olivia: About.
Smith: About.
Olivia: Today’s episode is Slava Mogutin. He is the episode! So today we have the honor and pleasure of speaking to Slava Mogutin, who is a New York-based multimedia artist, filmmaker, and writer. Slava was an openly gay journalist in Moscow in the early 90s. One of the first openly gay public figures in Russia, at the time. And he was exiled from Russia in the early 90s after a series of criminal charges were brought against him for the content of his writing.
Smith: The first question we have for you is: in a lot of the things I read of your work you call yourself a third generation writer and I notice you don’t talk about your family that much, so I’m just curious like what did your family write about?
Slava: Well the thing is that my grandfather was a writer who was persecuted during Stalin’s repressions so he was sent to Gulag. And I never got to meet him but he was a novelist who was writing about Russian history, I believe. My father is a professional journalist and writer who has published over 22 books of poetry, books for kids, also he published a historical novel.
I actually talk quite a lot about my father because I’m not in contact with him because he’s a born-again Christian, so he’s quite homophobic and he publicly denounced my work in several interviews and he described my writing as “anal filth.” So that was kind of the description that he uses when referring to my work. And you know also I was awarded the Andrei Bely prize which is kind of like one of the most prestigious and oldest literary awards in Russia. And I think there’s some kind of, I don’t want to say jealousy, but you know maybe he thinks of me as someone who’s less deserving than him. My father is kind of an anti-hero for me because I’ve always had this tension with him about different things. You know his Orthodoxy is one of the reasons why we don’t really get along.
Olivia: Okay. I…Yeah I wanted to ask about the staging of the marriage in ’94 with your boyfriend in Moscow. You had said in an interview about that in New York Magazine that “at this time it seemed possible to actually get away with something like this in Moscow” and I’m just wondering if you could explain what you meant by that phrasing?
Slava: Well this event happened shortly after homosexuality was officially decriminalized in Russia. So it happened in '93 and that was an end to 70 years of this draconian anti-gay law, where any consensual sex between two men was considered a criminal offense with up to five years in prison. So it was actually something that was widely used against gay people for 70 years and a lot of them ended up in Gulag. I was actually the first journalist who was writing about the history of gay persecution, I did extensive research about how the whole law was introduced, why it happened and how it was implemented. I interviewed a lot of survivors who went through the prisons and camps for being gay.
So when I staged that event with my then-boyfriend Robert Filippini, it was actually his idea, and we were dating for about a year at that time, I think. And he was a member of ACT UP and Queer Nation, two very important activist groups based in New York. And this was kind of like their way of pushing the issue of gay rights in Russia. I thought this was kind of cool gesture because not only did it involve two people already in a relationship, but I was Russian, he was American, so it was kind of symbolic in that way. And we didn't expect that we would be officially registered as a couple but it was kind of like a personal political performance that we thought would be a good way to address the issues related to human rights violations for sexual minorities in Russia.
And when I said that in the interview that you know I was lucky that I got away with it, I meant that it was actually this brief period of liberalism when there was an emergence of underground gay venues and kinda samizdat zines and publications for gay and lesbian people. And you know it was a very interesting time. And also you know, I was very much involved with the activism part of this whole movement. And at that point it was more liberal approach, because it was kind of like part of this general emergence of subcultures. It was the time of perestroika where this freedom of press and freedom of speech was actually all of the sudden really prominent in Russia for the first time ever. So that event kind of was a part of a larger context, of the lessening of these strict restrictions and oppression. And even though marriage wasn't registered, we did manage to get a lot of attention.
And we also managed to get away with it in the way that we were not gay bashed, we were not arrested. We were not beaten on the street publicly, like what's happening in recent years with the new anti-gay legislation, when people are actually being attacked in broad daylight. Of course we were condemned in most of the Russian media. But the point was actually to bring attention to these issues in the larger world community. And in that respect it was quite successful, but as a consequence you know, there was a criminal investigation against me for my journalism. I was actually one of first openly gay people in Russia in the country of 106 million. Hard to believe, but that was the reality. And unfortunately since there have been several attempts to do the same thing that we did, to register other same sex unions, and they were all failed events and in some cases people were actually arrested. So that's the difference between then and now.
Smith: Ok. I have kind of two questions. The first one, maybe you've spoken about this in other interviews before, but the fact that you were like you know, the only openly gay person like in the spotlight. You know, a well-known journalist. I'm wondering was that a choice you made at one point or was it just like a natural decision, you were just always going to be vocal about who you were?
Slava: Kind of part of it was like my personal decision and another was basically like the circumstances. My family was kind of one of the main factors because my parents got divorced when I was 13 and around that time I realized I was gay and I never really had any problem with my sexuality. Unlike most people who had to deal with the pressure from their families, because they seek their approval, in my case my family was so dysfunctional to begin with that was never an issue. You know I was out and I let them deal with it and my father freaked out. But my mother was actually quite accepting of it. And you know it was at the time when it was still considered a criminal offense. But you know I was a teenager wasn't even practicing sex for a few years and it was more like kind of just a personal decision. And I was out with my friends at the time. It was really dangerous and I was lucky that I was actually surrounded by people that were very accepting and understanding.
And when I started working as a journalist it actually really helped with my career because there were plenty of old closeted gay guys and lesbians working in the Russian media who couldn't come out for various reasons, but they were very supportive of my work, because again for me it was never an issue. And I think the reason why my journalism was...kind of like I was lucky enough to be published in some of the most popular mainstream magazines and newspapers is because I didn't have this image of like an effeminate and flamboyant person, I fit the masculine stereotypes of the Russian psyche. And I think maybe that was one of the reasons why people were more accepting of me being gay rather than some gay activists I knew who were actually like way more outrageous in their personal style.
Also the fact that I was writing about my personal experiences and interviewing people who were actually very sympathetic of my work, that was also very important. I outed, for the first time, some really prominent people from the world of culture and art and show business and sure some of them chose to come out in the interviews I conducted and the other ones I outed because I felt like it was very important for the larger community, you know, to have people who were well-regarded and respected in the Russian culture to come out at the time when it was actually possible to come out.
Smith: Yeah. Can you give some examples of those people that you outed who had outed themselves in interviews with you?
Slava: There was one in particularly who was very flamboyant and he is still around, Boris Moiseev his name is and he was a dancer and performer who would be considered by American standards to be a drag performer. But in Russia, his official storyline was that he was dating all these female pop stars. But in the gay community we all knew of course that he was like a flaming queen.
And so he was kind of like putting advances on me and I basically used that as an opportunity to out him and he was one of those people who was actually very grateful because you know he was in his late 40s. He was in the public eye for like 25 years before I outed him, but all along his image was so blatantly homo that it was just so ironic that he wasn't outed already, you know.
That article was very graphic and detailed because he described how during the Moscow Olympics of 1980 he was forced to perform naked in front of some Communist Party officials and that they forced him to like suck their cocks and stuff like this. So there was a huge scandal and that interview was re-published in several mainstream newspapers. And that was the reason for the first criminal case against me when I was charged with malicious hooliganism and exceptional cynicism and extreme insolence.
It’s like something out of 1984, but that was the actual criminal offense against me, punishable with up to three years in prison, I think. And actually the charge of hooliganism was something that was routinely used against anti-Soviet dissidents back in the 70s when they didn't want to implicate them in any political case involving freedom of speech or expression. So they would charge them with disorderly conduct or hooliganism and up to this day the charges brought against Pussy Riot for the anti-Putin performance was of hooliganism, the same charge that I was charged with.
And then another person was Zhirinovsky, who is one of the most flamboyant and outrageous politicians, who kept this image of a family man who got divorced. Anyway he's still in the Parliament and he's kind of like a pocket oppositioner. You know he was also very... like it was kind of outrageous at the time when I met him and he approached me to be his press secretary. You know I...I couldn't imagine having accepted the position. But you know I had spent enough time with him to like figure out what he was about [laughs] and I kind of published the accounts. And that was also kind of you know one of those well known secrets because there were rumors about him being gay for years.
But anyway I was just in my late teens when I was doing that. And at that time, as I said, it felt like anything was possible. It was this period when all the previously banned literature, art, and cinema was all of the sudden available to the general public and it was very interesting and kind of optimistic and I would say a euphoric time in Russian history when communism crumbled, empire crumbled. You know I witnessed the uprising that basically ousted Gorbachev and brought Yeltsin to power. And I was there on the barricades when I saw people rise up against tanks and it was a very powerful experience as a teenager at that time. And I think it also kind of gave me the confidence that the journals had given me this opportunity and the platform to become the voice for these underground subcultures.
I'm not just talking about the gay subculture, which was very underground at that time, but also there was a pretty big arts scene, the rock scene. You know, I was going to all these concerts of bands that were never on the radio, up to that point and then all of a sudden they had the stadiums packed with people. I actually saw you did something on Victor Tsoi and I was friends with him and Georgiy Guryanov who was a good friend of mine and was a drummer in Kino. Yeah, Victor was an incredible guy, he was one of my heroes. And actually in retrospect I still like to listen their music, it's so nostalgic to me.
Smith: Amazing, wow...yeah I guess kind of going off this underground culture you're describing, after this attempted wedding and these criminal charges filed against you based on your journalism. You ended up filing for political asylum in the U.S. and you were actually the first person to be granted political asylum on the basis of sexual orientation. Right?
Slava: Right, Russian to be exact, because there were people from other countries. But at the time when I moved here, I basically managed to escape because I had this invitation from Columbia University for a series of lectures. So I used it to get my American visa. But when I went to the US embassy in Moscow, I basically told them that the main reason why I was leaving is to escape this persecution. And it happened at the time when they just opened this new criminal case against me. It was a very dramatic and traumatic process because at that time I didn't expect that I would be in exile for years and years before being able to go back. I thought maybe for a few months to sit out the charges and I expected that that they would drop the charges and instead they actually issued a warrant for my arrest. And they interrogated the people I had worked with. They shut down two newspapers that were the main outlets where I published my journalism. They were prosecuting two agitators that I closely worked with. They went and interrogated my family. So it was like really nasty. I realize that there's no way I should go back and at that time I had to like file this formal application.
You know that was before the internet so it was essentially whatever articles I had when I left Russia. I had to translate them into English to show, to document how and why I was prosecuted. And then Allen Ginsberg was one of the few people that I met in New York and he helped me organize a letter from American PEN Center. And then after that I got another letter from Amnesty International in support of my case and Committee To Protect Journalists. So it was a big campaign. When I won the case it was kind of a big victory for not just for me but also for my immigration lawyers because they had several other Russians already at that time who were applying for political asylum based on homophobic persecution. And my case also helped them and many other cases that came after would be granted asylum for all those other gay and lesbian people who came from Russia and actually other Soviet republics, former Soviet republics.
Smith: We're going to take a quick break and listen to Slava read from his recent book Pictures & Words
Slava: [Reading a poem]
In the beginning of time of air and storm and fire
The coming of ice and age
Hard times, tough lives. Hard years, muted tears.
Insurgents stormed the machine's eyes when they were very young.
People make the rain.
When the desert grows, a warm, foreign place.
Tales of the future.
Art lives, dirty lies.
Tough love, rough cut.
There will be ice. There will be blood.
Smith: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about kind of how your work shifted after you emigrated and specifically using the example of Lost Boys. So when you emigrated, you were more of a journalist, you're working with texts mostly and you sort of pivoted towards the visual arts and in particular photography and you have this book called Lost Boys. And for the listeners, it's a book of portraits of young men and boys from Europe and Russia that belong to different subgroups and I've heard you describe these people as belonging to subcultures. Part of the book is like skaters and punks and skinheads but then you also have this other component that's like military people. So I guess like cadets.
In my mind I don't immediately categorize cadets or people in the military as part of a subculture and I'm kind of wondering what you see as the conceptual through line between a skinhead in Germany and maybe like a 12 year old cadet in some sort of Russian military practice.
Slava: The thing is that I would say that the main theme of my work is kind of a subversion of masculinity and that's especially true for Lost Boys series because I come from a culture where uniforms are traditionally associated with power, authority, and oppression. And I had to wear a uniform from a very young age and you know that was kind of my first introduction to some kind of a performance art almost, because growing up under Communism we had to be involved in these highly ritualistic procedures where we would like pay tribute to the fallen soldiers or celebrate Lenin's birthday or like other important revolutionary holidays. And it was all very heavy on uniforms and paramilitary activities that are basically like preparing the kids for this like very uniformal career. Because it is a mandatory military draft for everyone, right?
And I escaped the Army because I told them that I was a homosexual. I was actually really really dreading the idea that I would have to be drafted, cause I obviously didn't want to go to the army because I am a pacifist. It was at the time when I was arrested for the first time and I realized that people wearing a uniform can cause so much harm to somebody like me, who's against uniforms. So it was this sudden masochistic connection that I found very disturbing and appealing at the same time.
So when I came back to Russia to receive the literary prize and then I was shooting the series that later became Lost Boys. I was really fascinated by the whole idea of this flip side of the uniforms and juxtaposition of these young men who are basically signing their lives to the government to be part of this faceless crowd of cadets or marines or whatever.
And then as an opposite on this spectrum you know like different youth subcultures that are very rebellious against the whole idea of uniformity and conformism and military. And I just wanted to examine how the whole idea of masculinity manifests in these different segments of the new generation of Russians. And also it was at the time when I was able to travel for the first time, so basically the whole premise and idea of that book was to show this kind of interconnectivity between on the one hand these young men who chose this path of extreme conformity and then on the other hand various archetypes of these kind of groups that traditionally signify youth rebellion, something I was personally drawn to.
It's kind of a mind fuck, I guess, in terms of this juxtaposition of order versus chaos, and authority versus nihilism, and morals versus rebellion. And you know it also has to do with different modes of masculinity and behavior that I wanted to examine and also draw the parallels between these oppressive forms of masculinity and then others that are extremely rebellious and nonconformist. So it's basically like this whole spectrum that I wanted to show under one cover.
Olivia: I want to pick up on this idea of subverting images of masculinity, specifically images of gay masculinity and the context is just like this idea that there's like a kind of international, arguably, image of like the ideal gay man as this like David Beckham, sexy, sporty, muscular beautiful man. And there's a relationship to that image of sort of intolerance for those who don't fit into it.
Slava: So it's interesting because actually I talk a lot about the conformity of the gay community. And I think it's it's true for the Russian gay community just as much as American. You know that's one thing, this obsession with body fascism as I call it. It's something that is kind of a sad reality we have to deal with. But it's also kind of part of the consumerist structure of gay identity that is very prevalent in the West in particular. And it is the same model that is pretty much used internationally, I would say. So in my work, I'm very much interested in the idea of subverting and transgressing some of those traditional stereotypes about what makes a man a man. And how that identity is constructed.
When it comes to my Russian pictures particularly, I find the whole paramilitary style of Russian society very homoerotic in a sense because when you talk about uniforms it's a big part of this constructed identity and different cultures have different codes and uniforms that are very highly fetishist, they become fetishes for these communities. My work is very much focused on the fetish aspects of uniforms of all kinds and I'm basically trying to examine how they reflect different societal norms and situations and how they react and how they perform their masculinity.
When you look at Lost Boys it starts with pictures of adolescents and young men. It's almost an idyllic state and almost like an asexual context. But then it transgresses to different fetishistic situations and ends up, the book ends up, with hard core images of guys in bondage, and dungeons and some roleplay, stuff like this. Again, I'm showing this full spectrum from like this almost sex-phobic environment that I grew up in. There was a popular slogan, which was absurd, but it's actually used in Russian media "In Soviet Union we don't have sex" [laughing] like on Russian tv "we don't have sex" implying that we don't have it outside of our bedrooms. There is nothing sexual about Soviet Union. This is just the concept that I grew up with.
Olivia: Would you say that the concept that you're interested in, what makes a man a man, and like these different iterations and images of masculinity...is that the explanation as to why you don't really have female subjects in your art?
Slava: Well this is actually not true because this is one particular book that was only focused on men and boys. It had a few women, but they're not principal subjects. But you know I just published my new book of photography where I have actually several principal female and transgender subjects. So there are like 17 different chapters in the book and several of them feature female and trans people.
Smith: Is this the Bros & Brosephines book?
Slava: Yeah Bros & Brosephines, it just came out. I'm not one of those misogynist gay men. Unfortunately, it's also a kind of unpleasant trend that I find really disturbing. When a lot of gay men don't want to include the opposite sex in any shape or form. [laughing] I'm not one of those, I can assure you.
Olivia: Yeah I didn't...I wasn't trying to like imply that you were.
Slava: But Lost Boys was about lost boys.
Olivia: Yes yes.
Slava: It would be weird if it wasn't.
Olivia: As the title indicates. Yes.
Smith: All right. We're going to take a break and listen to Slava read another excerpt from his book Pictures & Words.
Slava: [Reading a poem]
Postmodern postmortem post-punk
post-fuck, post post gay post drugs
stark, naked, exploring your magic
your magic bush
And that's what kills you
Empathy with animals
ingenious dragons that escaped from the zoos
And kept on breeding
Stuck in death valley with coyotes and mountain lions
Black widows and lizards drained their blood and laid their poisonous eggs
[laughing] It's very metaphorical.
Olivia: Ok I have a question that is kind of more about contemporary Russian politics. I think a lot of people know about the anti-gay propaganda law in Russia but what people probably, non Russians, probably don't know about is like the recent anti-US sanctions law that was passed a couple of months ago that like blocked certain medications from coming in to Russia. Like Russia blocking imports from the U.S.
That is particularly something that the gay community reacted to because along with like lots of different kinds of medications, HIV treatment treatment from the U.S. which is like much better than Russian HIV treatment is being blocked now. And I'm just curious, in your positioning as an activist, is that something that you have a position on?
Slava: It's terrible. Well I really...I mean I talk about it in every interview. And you know it's just one of the big subjects for me. And I really think what's happening with the sanctions is hurting ordinary people on both sides. It's like when Russia had that law implemented, it wasn't just about gay propaganda but it was also banning the adoption of Russian kids by same sex couples, which was also not such a big subject for discussion, but it's terrible. As I said, I feel like sanctions only hurt people and they don't resolve anything. And I feel like it just helps to cement Putin's popularity and was the best gift for him that helped him to get reelected, these new Western sanctions on Russia.
I think the only way forward is diplomacy and cultural diplomacy, in particular. You know. Like I had shows that were boycotted sometimes, like I had this show in Indianapolis, it was my first US solo show. And there were calls for boycotting it, because I was accused of being Putin's agent.
Olivia: What!?
Slava: Which is kind of absurd, I know! Considering that I was exiled from Russia for you know being...I mean that was before Putin. But you know, I spoke against Putin so many times and still just because I don't think sanctions are the best way to approach the situation. But I also feel like this whole hysteria about Russia...Russian interference in the elections overshadows very important issues, like the ones we were just talking about. Because you know it dominates the news. In the meantime there are like serious legislations that are passed that are actually hurting people already, you know.
Olivia: Yeah yeah. Ok so we’re just thinking about the larger context but to go back to like the context of the gay community in Russia, do you consider yourself to be part of that community or are you...like as an expat, as a Russian expat in the States are you involved as an activist with what's going on in Russia?
Slava: I’m actually more involved in bringing my message across to new places where I've never been before and it's like one of the advantages of being a visual artist, it doesn't require translation. My visual art and my photography is a continuation of the work I was doing as a journalist. I mean I still do journalism. And a big part of my work as a journalist again is just basically like bringing a message. Like everything I do could be considered as activism, because the kind of a queer imagery I work with is probably the most effective weapon against censorship and homophobia and hypocrisy and xenophobia and all that. You know traveling the world with my work and I do artist talks every now and then and I always talk about Russia and my past and my story in relation to current events and what's happened in recent years.
Unfortunately it's definitely you know taking a few steps back. I do consider myself, to answer your question, I do consider myself a part of the larger community. I don't want to say that I specifically belong to the Russian community simply because I don't live there anymore. But I do follow the news cycle. I regularly talk to friends who are still there, I see them when they come to New York or wherever. I get a lot of mail from people who ask for my advice when they're trying to escape the country. The sad truth is a lot of Russian gays are trying to escape and they don't see the situation getting any better. It's quite the opposite. So you know that's the sad reality and I actually meet more and more Russian expatriates here in New York and they are new refugees, gay refugees, who actually managed to get political asylum here after the new anti-gay law was adopted.
So maybe that's the only positive side that came out of it, but it's just sad that all these talented people are leaving Russia in large numbers. Because I always say that I don't think that Russia is any more homophobic, or Russians are more homophobic than any other nation. It just has to do with the policies and the government that is using this anti-gay card in a larger political game. And traditionally if you look at different dictatorships throughout history they have been using gay people as a scapegoat but also as a part of a larger campaign on other minorities and political and moral dissent. And Putin's regime is no exception in that regard. It's basically what's in common between Putin and some dictators like Robert Mugabe In Africa. I feel like things are not getting better and you know the bubble we live in, in places like New York or even Moscow and St. Petersburg for that matter, is not available to the vast majority or even in America.
You cannot be really true to yourself in certain places where sodomy is still illegal. We cannot take any of these freedoms and rights for granted, you know. And as I said, I see queer imagery as a way to address all these issues. And also it's something that is worth fighting for, because I'm still being censored just as much as I was in Russia. But now it's happening on a more daily, routine basis on social media, you know.
[Outro music]
Smith: All right. That's the episode. If you would like to find Slava out on the internet, be sure to visit his website slavamogutin.com, that's S-L-A-V-A M-O-G-U-T-I-N dot com. He has a lot of his work on there and some biography stuff. It's a really nice website so I recommend checking it out. In addition if you live in New York City he's going to be doing a book signing at the MoMA store in Soho at the end of June for his collection of photos, Bros & Brosephines. So we'll be posting a link to that event when it gets closer.
If you live in Germany, he'll be doing an artist reception and artist talk at Gallery Kernweine which is in Stuttgart Germany. The reception and opening are on Saturday June 9th at 8:00 p.m. and the artist talk will be on Wednesday June 20th at 7:00 p.m. If you want to buy the book from which Slava read, the book is called Pictures & Words and it is available on Amazon. And thank you very very much to Slava for coming on and talking to us.
Olivia: Yay. It was fun! [in muppet voice] I don't have anything else to add. Thank you Slava.
Smith: We really really really [in muppet voice] really appreciate it.
Olivia: Okay you're not going to use that voice. You can't take my voice.
Smith: And then of course, don't you dare forget to follow us on Twitter, Telegram and, Arena at shesinrussia. If you have a question about Russia give us a call plus 1 3 4 7 2 9 2 7 1 2 6. Sign up for our monthly image based newsletter at She's in Russia dot com and we will see you next week.
