Episode 8 — Season One Wrap Up
Season One of Sprints & Milestones was all about the principles of digital project management, taken from Brett’s book Project Management for Humans. We released seven episodes full of discussion and stories about our experiences leading projects. It was very much about us, but really it’s for you. In our final episode of the season, we respond to questions submitted by listeners.
Several questions about project leadership came in, so we sat down to share our two (sometimes different) perspectives. At the direction of our listeners, we cover:
- The PM career path
- How to scale your PM tasks on projects of varying sizes
- Questions to ask PM candidates in job interviews
- How to develop trust with a team
- Managing people without being their “manager”
- And more!
Links Mentioned in This Episode
Transcript: Episode 8
Announcer: Welcome to Sprint and Milestones, a podcast where Brett Harned and Greg Storey share war stories, tips, tactics, and anecdotes on navigating the sometimes rough waters of getting digital projects done. If you're leading projects and want some help and reassurance that you're doing the right things, you've downloaded the right podcast. Enjoy the show.Brett: This episode is sponsored by TeamGantt and Harvest, two companies who have supported me and the Digital Projects Management community for some time now. TeamGantt is an online project management platform. It helps you to create intuitive and beautiful project plans. For more information and a free account, visit teamgantt.com. Harvest, if you don't already know, is a leading time-tracking and reporting software that has helped me to keep many budgets and projects intact. For more information and to start your free trial, visit getharvest.com. On with the show.Welcome to the final episode of season one. Over the course of this season, we talked through some high-level topics taken from my book, Project Management for Humans that meant we dictated the content, but for this last episode, we asked our listeners to submit questions related to those topics, so we've got some good topics to cover today, but before we jump in, we want to talk a little bit about season two.We got some great ideas for a second season, but we're looking to go beyond project management. Maybe it's the evolution of project management like what's next? We're thinking about bringing in some other voices to the show and talking about other topics like operations, product ownership and possibly other leadership topics as they relate to design, technology and business.Greg: Before we do that, we'd love to hear from you because we're not going to do this for fun. Although the show is sponsored, all of the money we receive goes directly to the costs to run the show, and we want to make sure that this is something that you're going to like and that's actually going to be of interest and value to you, so we'd love some feedback. How you can do this is, first and foremost is, please give us a rating in the iTunes store. I almost hate to say this, but even if it's a negative rating, we just would love to hear from someone out in the audience. Preferably though, three stars or better, please. The other is, if you could send us feedback via Twitter or e-mail us at firstname.lastname@example.org.Brett: Yes, all ears.Greg: Yes. Now, onto the questions. We received a good amount of questions. We've noticed some themes, and those range from career path to people management, client management and more. Let's get started with the career path questions.Brett: Sounds good. Let's jump in.Greg: Brett, what is the typical career path for a project manager?Brett: It's a really tough question because I don't think that there is one career path that people go on. I think there are many, and if I think of my friends in the field, they're all moving in different directions, so first and foremost, I would probably say project management isn't a long-term career path for most people. I've noticed a lot of people getting burnout and trying to move in different directions. I think one typical direction that I see is project managers maybe moving up to more of a management role, leading a project management team than potentially moving onto more of an operations-focused role in an organization, so maybe pulling back from working with clients or working directly on projects for a little whileBrett: I think some of the other paths that I see is project manages moving into or getting more involved in the creative process. I've seen people move into more content strategy roles, general strategy roles, a little less hands-on when it comes to actual project management. Then, there's always the freelancer consultant path that people have taken, which is the path that I took for a little while, but yes. I think there's no one answer for that. I think the question is, probably for that person, "This isn't a long-term thing for me. What can I do next with my career?"Greg: Yes. I'd say, from what I've observed, because now, I've now worked with persons who were just, I'd say fairly organized with a bit of OCD. They got into project management because they felt they could do it better than what they were seeing, how things were done now but also a curiosity of seeing the start all the way through the finish of a project. I do go back to that natural tendency for people to be fairly well-organized in their own life or how they work. That, to me, is how I see a lot of people walk into project management, but there are some others who look at this as where they intend to work 40 years in project management. I'm referring to those people who actually go all the way to the extent of getting their PMP Certification or move on to other areas too like some kind of Agile Certification or Safe Agile.Greg: Now, those are things, in my experience, that are more in the enterprise world, especially the PMP and the more serious types of certifications or whatnot. I would also echo what you've said, which is, I feel that most people are in project management for a while. Then, they typically move on to something else that is tangentially related to what they've bee managing during their time as a PM.Brett: Yes, totally agree with that. I didn't mean to say that nobody stays in project management forever, because that's obviously not the case, right, but I do think that there is a career ladder within project management. It's probably going from PM to maybe being a lead PM to maybe being head of project management or a PMO, and that, I think, "Where do you go from there," right? I think it's dependent upon the organization that you're in and the goals that you have within your own career and the types of work that you're really strong at or things that you like to do.Greg: Right. Well, let's go into the next question, which is related to a little bit later on in your career, which is, "Do you have any pointers on how to figure out how to scale project management activities for various sized projects?"Brett: Yes, this is a good question because I think a lot of people tend to think that no matter the size of the project, the scale of what you do has to be the same. I don't think that's true at all. I think there are a few things that you can do just to make sure that you're doing a good job as a project manager. I would say it all focuses on being a really good communicator and setting really good expectations for how the work is going to go down. I think in terms of scale, the things that I would always do would be some level of project brief/kick-off where you're aligning with the folks on your team, the people that you're working with to make sure that everyone's clear about what they're doing on the project, how the project's going to work and how you're all going to work together. I think that's a really simple win that can really help long-term.Brett: I think another thing is doing regular stand-up meetings whether they're daily or weekly or bimonthly, depending on the size and scope of the project. It's just a way for teams to stay aligned and keeping everyone informed about what's happening on projects at all times. I think that's really important. Then, the last thing, I think, would be a status report, a regular status report that is a written communication of formal details of what's happening on a project, including action items and to-dos, upcoming milestones, percent complete on your projects and tasks, an update on your project and potential risks or issues that might exist. To me, that's a central communication that needs to go out no matter the size of the project.Brett: Now, when it comes to scaling down on projects and doing less, I don't think it's a matter of doing less project management work. It might be a matter of less formal meetings and less forced collaboration. It might be a matter of just opening things up and allowing people to be creative to meet shorted deadlines. What do you think, Greg?Greg: Well, I'd say, of course, yes to everything you just said. One of the things I've noticed is, especially for new PMs, I think that they ... I've seen them take a framework or a project plan and tried to take just a single project plan and apply it to projects, no matter how big or small, no matter what the intended outcome is. They're putting everything through the same process. Yes, as a project manager, it's important to understand what are the tasks that are needed, that are appropriate to get to the intended delivery? I can guarantee you, it's not always going to be the same for every project, and so when you consider scale, I see scale to mean there are some projects, whether it's time-boxed or the outcome just isn't that large, you're not going to need a full process that goes deep into research and goes through even the entire design process.Greg: There's times where you have just got to get done as much as you can in a short amount of time. There's going to be other projects that are a year to two years that are going to be arduous and require a lot of rigor and repetition and where there's a lot of ambiguity from all sides where you have to start with a huge research endeavor just to try to bring clarity to the intended outcomes. I'd say it's, especially as a new project manager, what you want to become aware of is all the different types of activities in a digital project or even product, and be aware of those distinct phases, what can come out of those because later in your career, you're going to have to assemble projects or product plans that are going to be a different make-up of those activities.Brett: Yes, so basically, it's one size does not fit all. Don't take a guidance from some processed document. Really think about the project. Talk to your team and do what's going to work for everybody and actually get the project done on time and on budget, right?Greg: Exactly.Brett: Yes. All right. Something that's related to this, a question that's related to this that also came in, which I find is really interesting and I hear people asking pretty often is, "What questions do you ask in an interview for a project manager?"Greg: The PM, as we've discussed in the previous seven episodes, the project manager covers a lot in the life of a project. Even in the down time in between projects, and so, one, there's a lot to ask project managers in an interview and to make sure it's a good fit. Obviously, there's the cultural questions that are important to make sure you've got the right fit for the team, but I see probably the most distinct role of a PM is in the way they manage people and without managing people. What I mean is, how are they at getting, driving consensus when you don't have it at all. My interviews, I think, that I would really focus on is the person's ability to, I wouldn't call it change a person's mind but to get them to understand perhaps a different side or a different take.When have they gone into a situation where the clients and the service provider were just not seeing eye-to-eye? What did the PM do to try to help bring those two parties back together to keep driving the project forward, because that, I believe is, it's a key attribute to a successful PM. More importantly, it's a key need of the team and of the client. Just no matter what happens in the relationship during the project is, the PM is looked at as the one to keep things moving, keep people talking to each other.Brett: Yes, I agree with that. I think for me, I'm generally thinking about cultural fit and communication style when interviewing PMs because I think when it comes to creating a project plan or managing a budget, I see those as things that mostly anyone could do. Every company has their specific way of doing those things, so to me, that becomes a part of onboarding or training a new PM. What I'm looking for is to find a person who I know is going to fit in well with the team, that the team is going to like and respect. To me, it's less about the questions and more about that person's performance in the interviews.Brett: Maybe letting the team ask a few questions to see how comfortable they are around topics around design or content or development, to see how they can speak on those things at a high level on their own without feeling like you're relying on them to harness a lot of knowledge on those topics but just enough to make them a little dangerous, right? Then, to the performance part of it, I can tell a quick story. I remember when you and I worked together, Greg. I had hired a bunch of project managers.... work together, Greg. I had hired a bunch of project managers, and there was one point where it was really difficult to find the right person. We had brought in a series of people and they just weren't meeting the criteria, the weren't wowing anybody. And I remember I had a phone interview, a screen, with someone and this person seemed really awesome. I was excited to have this person and I was also getting a little hesitant to bring people in because I didn't want to waste your time and the team's time, because we would have candidates meet with the team and then meet with the leadership. So, this person got through the first phone screen, the meeting with the team, things seemed to go well.And then when that person got into a meeting with leadership, you, and I don't even know if you remember this, this person was visibly shaking and nervous. They couldn't hide that nervousness. And right away, that was a no. It's like, if you can't get in front of people who you're a little nervous, who make you a little nervous or a little uncomfortable, and be confident and speak on your own behalf about yourself, how could you possibly do that and speak on behalf of your team and your company and be in an actual challenging situation? So to me, the performance means a lot, because it is a job where you kind of have to be able to shake that stress. So yeah, that's kind of how I think about it.Greg: Yeah. So moving on, we've got some questions, a two-parter on trust. The question is, you've talked extensively about the importance of trust. When you're new to a team or organization, what suggestions do you have for developing trust with your team, and what are some of the biggest things to avoid?Brett: That's a good question. I do think a lot of being a good project manager is the ability to develop trust through solid communication and just relating to people. I think if you're new to a team and you want to be able to build that trust, you have to display confidence. You have to really know what you're doing. You have to keep up on the actual tasks of project management and make sure that the quote-unquote "administrative" side of the job is really airtight, because then people are trusting that you're actually doing your job. Because a lot of people think that that is the job of project management, keeping up a plan, reporting on a budget, and it is, but it's not the only thing.Brett: I think the other side of that is building good relationships with your team and your clients at the same time. I think in terms of suggestions for me, it's really just trying to develop personal relationships by having coffee or lunch with people, getting to know who they are as people, understanding what motivates them, understanding what makes them tick. And I think that, for certain, helps you to build trust.Brett: In terms of the biggest things to avoid, that's a tough one. I think for, if you're talking about being new in an organization, you don't want to come in guns blazing and say, "You guys are doing everything wrong," which I happen to have seen a lot of new project managers do. Like, "Oh, have you tried this tool? We used this tool at my last job," and it's like, why don't you just take a step back and get to know what this organization is about, what your projects are about, what the people are about, before making recommendations for changes. Like, coming in and making changes is not really the way to kind of build that trust. I think the other thing to avoid is the micro-management thing. Understand, like I said in the first part, understanding what makes people tick first, before you're kind of checking in on them and dictating how they should work. That never works in building trust. And a lot of PMs do that.Greg: Yeah, and that's actually the next question, which I can't wait for us to get to. But I'll kind of go in reverse order, just to speak to, yeah, plus one on changing tools. Maybe this is a bad thing to say, but that is, to me, a rookie mistake.Brett: Yeah.Greg: Because tools change, they come and go, and tools do not dictate the success of a good project management program. They are what they are, they're tools.Brett: Yep.Greg: Process and personality, confidence, all of the attributes of a good project manager, those are the things that bring success. I'd also say, just things to avoid is, I've run into people who, when they're nervous, just keep talking and inevitably get into topics that just should not be in the workplace. You mentioned the one-on-ones, which is also a great idea, but when one-on-ones get into some of your edgier topics like politics and whatnot, I wouldn't say this is just a problem with project managers, but just new people in general is, just know when to put some headphones on and listen to a podcast or some music, kind of have an idea of what topics are just not appropriate in the work place.In terms of suggestions for developing trust, definitely building relationships is gonna be a good way to understand not only what makes people tick, but also what are things that people need. I'd say that more mature folks can understand the type of management that they need from someone in order for them to get work done. Younger people don't necessarily know that yet, and so the best thing a PM can do is go find out a person's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to just knowing what they should be doing day in and day out. Not to the point of micro-management, but just knowing what your stand-ups should look like, what your reports should look like, how do you help prompt people for them to know the right thing to work on at the right time.An activity that I've seen that helps build trust, and this is something that I've seen work time and time again, is when you come in, is try to, in a team setting, each of you put together a presentation of five slides and take five minutes and just introduce who you are, where you come from, maybe where'd you go to school or what's the educational path that got to where you are, show your work and some past projects. Even some work that maybe had nothing to do with project management, but just essentially be a little vulnerable in front of folks, and vice versa, is then have everybody else in the team do the same. It's a great way to get to know everybody really quickly, but again, kind of an expression of vulnerability from everyone means that you all tend to build a little bit of trust very quickly because you've shared that with each other. It's not something I've seen done a lot, but when it's done, it builds some pretty quick trust.Brett: Yeah, I really like that idea. So let's move on to the next question, Greg. How do you suggest redirecting someone who's supposed to be the PM from thinking they're the boss, managing the people, back to managing the project?Greg: This, man, I can think of ... It's easy for a PM to get stuck in that, right?Brett: Right.Greg: If people aren't, if they're not getting work done, I think it's a natural tendency to think, "Okay, I need to manage that person," actually down to the point of managing their day-to-day activities, even down into two hour increments, and I can tell you, in my experience, that does not go well. People have their people manager, and they have their project manager. And I'd say the thing to do is to focus on the work and make sure that people understand not only the deadlines that are always fast-approaching, but the steps that need to be taken and the due dates for their own work, and that's it. Like, stop. And if people aren't getting something done, then it's the PM's role at that point to go talk to the human manager, whether that's HR or the studio boss or whatever your situation is, go find the person that is responsible in a human relations capacity for that person, and relay the problems that you're having with that person getting work done.But once a PM starts dipping their toes into that managing people, that does not go away quickly. The feelings of resentment and hostility and anger and whatever, the negative feelings that people will have for the PM, that doesn't go away quickly. So you really want to be careful, just even playing around in that area.Brett: Totally agree. I think also, it's worth to mention that the actual people manager in this situation probably needs to think a little bit deeper about what's going on. So, not just that this is happening and that it needs to stop, but why is it happening. And I think, what I've seen in many instances is, the PM role is not very clearly defined, or there isn't a manager in the position to actually guide that person. So someone's over reaching just because they want things to get done and they want to help, but their approach is just really terrible. Or it could just be that, you know, there's a lack of trust between people. Someone misses a deadline, a PM feels like they need to go overboard to make sure that the deadline's met the next time around. I've seen that happen. It's never helpful, and it's never correct, right? But I think just trying to diagnose that situation when you're seeing it is probably the bigger thing, because it's not gonna be the same excuse every time around. It's either based on the person or based on a situation that's happened already.Greg: Exactly. So, next question. Some of what you've discussed touched on getting to know people, to build that trust. I've had experiences where clients or colleagues want to be best buddies or really overshare personal issues. I'm laughing because this resonates. How can I push back to keep the relationship professional without offending people?Brett: To me this one is simple, because it's about setting professional boundaries. Like you said before, it's not always about getting personal and talking about topics that are not relevant to your work, or appropriate for the workplace. There is a balance between being personal and professional. To me, in this case, if something is crossing the line of the professional relationship and someone's being offended, then it's up to you to say it in a way that is firm, but also friendly, to get the point across.I'm not sure if I'm really answering that question. What do you think, Greg?Greg: I mean, this is a touchy feely area, right?Brett: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Greg: Because, I'll be honest, what I've experienced is, when this happens and even when you in the nicest possible way go to someone and say, "Listen, no disrespect, you're a cool person, but I'd like to keep this relationship professional," there's a tendency to ... I mean, that person's feelings are likely gonna get hurt in some way. Not every case, but in some way, it's gonna sting. But I think being honest is the best thing you can do with someone, and to keep the discussion concise, and do what Brett said, mention that you want to keep things professional and maybe even offer that you ... You likely don't overshare yourself, right? And so, maybe it's worth pointing out that you yourself like to keep things professional and don't generally talk about things outside of work.I think that's the best you can do, and then if you run into problems, then I think it's time to go find the people manager in the room, or if it's a larger company, there's going to be places you can go to talk about this in an HR type of capacity where they can even help facilitate that conversation for you.Brett: Yeah, I agree. It's kind of like, it's one of those situations that is so personal. You don't want to hurt someone's feelings, but you also want to have those boundaries, so you have to do what feels right for you in that situation. But I think just remembering that you can do something about it, like you can stop that behavior on someone else's part, if you really feel like that needs to happen.All right, let's move on to the next question about expectation management. Are there any key indicators or red flags for you which indicate a change in expectations discussion needs to happen? Not so much getting people back on track, but when expectations might actually need to change.Greg: Yeah, I saw this, I mean, I'm just gonna draw on the theme here of just change, and I think that's any kind of change, whether it's the project needs to pivot, therefore the outcome's likely gonna be different. If you've got clients, stakeholders, that are coming and going, especially on those larger projects. I've had a couple of projects in my past where the entire team that hired us was different than the team that we ended up delivering to, just because of people leaving their employer. I think that's where you've got to get the key people in the room and take a look at, "Here's where we were trajecting, this is what we intended to do. Now here are ..." Whatever's changed, whether that's, again, change-... or whatever's changed, whether that's again, a change in the outcome, an change in timelines. Brett, how many times have you been asked to do additional work, and we've had to put a pause on the project, and get everybody in the room realigned and say hey, we can't do this based on our original estimate both in time and materials, and the best you can is to get everybody back together again, especially the people that are responsible for delivery and responsible for, I'd say, payment. Get those folks back in the room and clearly walk them through what's changed, and how that's going to have an impact on all the different levels, types of outcomes.Brett: Yeah, absolutely. I think you set expectations early on projects, and especially if you're working with a client, maybe not as much at an internal organization. You have a scope document that tells you what you're there to do, and sometimes that scope document even details just how much hand holding there will be from the project manager's point of view or side of things.To me, the biggest red flags are when somebody new enters the project on a client or stakeholder side, the minute that they start having, or are starting a conversation about why things were done in a certain way in the past or how decisions need to change, that is a stop everything and let's discuss what the expectations are for this project, and how things might change if you change something, which can be really big.I also think it's anecdotally like people coming in and sometimes with good intentions, like bringing new ideas to the table when things have already been kind of laid out, that's always a red flag. I think there's lots of things that can happen, even just passively, on projects where you don't realize that things are going off track, like maybe a team member starts missing meetings and that's going to start impacting their work and other people's work.It's those kinds of things that PMs have to have a really good eye on and a handle on to make sure that they're actually assessing the situation, and making sure that something major isn't going to happen, come in and break everything down or stop the work that you've already worked so hard on to deliver and get approved. I don't know that that's really a good answer to that question, but I think to me it's more about managing risk and keeping your eye on things.Greg: If I can just add, yes, that's exactly it, is in this case trying to mitigate and manage risk as much as possible. The other thing I'd like to add is when I feel like I'm hearing from my teams that something may happen that's going to put the project at risk, whether that's a timeline, the quality of the deliverable, whatever that might be, whatever the change to the outcome might be, I don't do this every time but I try to gauge the severity of how bad could this be, in addition to how much of the surprise or shock is this going to be to whomever we are delivering to, whomever we are servicing.That's when I try to get my counterpart on the phone, or I go see them in person. I never handle this through email. It's always in some kind of conversation, live conversation, and I just let them know here's what's going on, we don't know exactly if this is going to cause a big change in expectations. I just try to give them an idea of what might be happening, and how we are working to mitigate that it does not have any kind of negative result. Just so they get an idea.Greg: The last thing i want to do is any time I have to change any kind of expectation, i do not want to bring a bunch of people into the room and that is breaking news.It may be for some folks, but those are likely the ones that are not making decisions. I want my key decision makers to be in the know so that if I have to go back to them and change expectations in a negative way, that they knew about it and they knew that we were working hard to prevent that from happening. So, so, so, that is so important.Brett: Absolutely. That's a really good point. Along the lines, I think, of red flags, we have another question. Do you have any tips for better engaging clients when they tend to disappear?Greg: Red flag. Yeah, yeah, speaking of. You want to get them on the phone, you want to go talk to them and you can't find them. This has happened to me. I feel like, severely enough that I wrote an article for Dear Design Student on this. I've had clients, there's three clients that I can think of that disappeared. Two of them, which meant, actually in all cases, I went to them. I found a way like where they were, and what was the most convenient time and place for me to go to them, and I'm going to put air quotes around "in person," and I'll tell you why.Two of them meant that I actually hopped on a plane and went to them, in some cases, one time I spent an entire day in a casino in Reno, Nevada waiting for the client to finish, I kid you not, finish mapping out his territory out in the desert by plane and helicopter. We didn't exactly know when he was going to finish, so I was told, instructed to go to this casino and wait. And then I would get a call, and then within a half hour I could expect to meet with this person at the board room at this casino. That was as weird as it sounds. But I got to play a free game of Keno, so that was okay.The second weirdest one is where I asked the client, I said, "Where can I come meet you?" and he gave me the log-in instructions for an online video game. Think of it like text-based World of Warcraft, where I had to go download some software and telnet into a server, and once I got in I was instructed to whisper to this person, and then the next thing I know I'm transported into a room, and if you've ever played Zork, where it describes the room and tells me that my client is in the room, and so I chat. I walk him through design and chat in this text adventure game. The weird thing was is he would emote, which means he would type in a command that would say, "The wizard nods in approval."That's all to say that sometimes you, if you can't get them on the phone, they're not answering email, the best thing to do is get in a car, get in a plane, do what you can to go meet them face to face or wizard to wizard in a text adventure game.Brett: All right. I'm off mute. I was laughing so hard. Never heard of Zork, and I don't think that I would ever do that. I think I would have to draw some kind of personal boundary there, like a shell boundary. I'm not downloading whatever and getting into some secret backstage area of a video game to talk to a client. Nope. Sorry.Greg: It's the only way I could things done, right?Brett: I guess you do what you gotta do. I think for me, to give them more of like, less situation-based like that, the thing that I do is just badger the hell out of people. Email, text, voicemail, figure out where they are, leave messages that say, "I'm really concerned our project's going sideways and I can't get in touch with you. We're probably going to have to put this thing on hold if I don't hear back from you in the next 24 hours." Something like that.I think the backup to that is Carl Smith had come up with the pause clause, right? Something that they did at Engine Works back in the day, which was a simple clause that they put in contracts that said, basically, if you disappear for however long and we don't hear back from you, we have every right to stop the project and pick it back up again when we're ready to do it. To me, that's such a powerful clause that you can put into a contract to avoid this kind of situation, and hopefully not have to get into a video game.But I think at the same time, I sit here and say, "Nope. There's no way I'd do it," you do have to have empathy. Like in the back of your head, you're thinking, "What's going on with this person?" Like maybe they're leaving their job. Maybe something really terrible happened in their life and you don't know about it because you're not connected to their organization and coworkers to find that kind of stuff out, or nobody thinks of letting a partner know about it. So that's something to keep in mind.Greg: I had one client, he disappeared, and I found out weeks later after finally reconnecting, that he had started hiccuping one night and it didn't stop. He, if you can imagine, hiccuping every 15 seconds and it's a known thing but there's no necessarily like a cure for it, but he had to go to hospitals and doctors and was just out of work for two weeks straight, not knowing how to stop hiccuping until he finally learned how he was going to have to treat this, live with it for a while until it stopped. So that empathy thing is so important.Brett: Yeah. I hope people made it to this last question, because I think you had some of the best stories of the entire season wrapped up in that last question, and we're going to share the link to Dear Design Student so people can check that out. But I think that's a wrap on season one. I'm sorry if you submitted a question and we didn't get to it. We did have a few that we couldn't get to. And this is actually our longest episode of the season. Greg, I've truly enjoyed doing this. I hope that you can say the same.Greg: I can.Brett: Cool. And I hope that we do it again, and season two is going to be even more awesome. Just to echo what you said in the beginning, everyone who's listening, please go to iTunes and rate Sprints and Milestones for us, and definitely send us feedback via email or via Twitter. We want to hear what you think about the podcast and any ideas you have for us moving forward, or if you're one of those folks that wants to talk to us in the next season. But again, thank you for listening to season one of Sprints and Milestones. Please keep in touch and watch out for more announcements around season two coming soon.Greg: Yeah. Thanks, everybody.Brett: Thanks, Greg.Greg: Thanks, Brett.Announcer: You've sprinted to the end of this episode. Milestone complete. Thank you for listening. If you're looking for more resources on digital project management, check out Project Management for Humans, by Brett Harned, which is available on amazon.com or through Rosenfeld Media. And of course, don't forget to subscribe on iTunes. And check out our show notes and more at sprintsandmilestones.com.