Elevating Workplace Culture through Transparent Leadership | Entrepreneur Tools #10
Executive Summary
In this episode of Startuprad.io Joe hosts for the 2nd part guest Silke Glaab, a leadership and executive coach, who explores leadership dynamics and organizational structures. They discuss the importance of self-reflection, feedback mechanisms, and the shift from hierarchical to more flexible, role-based models like holacracy aimed at boosting innovation. The episode addresses the challenges in management, the advantages of agile frameworks, and techniques beneficial for introverts. Key points include the critical role of communication and accountability in fostering a productive workplace culture geared toward modern market demands.
Effective Communication Techniques: “And if you want to address the you, address it in a way that you have really listened to the other person. You can say, if I understood you right, you mean this and this and this.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
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Effective Communication Techniques: “Invite the other person to talk, you ask questions, you rectify what you have understood, and surprisingly people believe that after that you’re very, very good communicator because they feel really hurt if you are not talking yourself all the time.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
Introduction
In this episode, we delve deep into the evolving landscape of company hierarchy and leadership roles. Silke brings her expertise as an organizational psychologist to tackle the inefficacies of traditional hierarchical structures and suggests a transformative approach using holocracy — a system that streamlines governance by eliminating conventional titles and prioritizing roles, accountability, and adaptability.
Together, they explore how this method not only fosters innovation but also caters to the demands of the market and the aspirations of a younger workforce. Expect discussions on the necessity of transparent communication and agile thinking within teams, the impact of cognitive biases on leadership, and practical tips on how introverts can excel in leadership roles. Silke shares compelling insights from a case study of Bayer, demonstrating the effectiveness of these new organizational models in a real-world setting. Join Joe and Silke as they contemplate the future of leadership and organizational structure, aiming to equip you with the mindset and tools to thrive in an ever-changing business landscape.
Exploring Leadership Self-Awareness: “And if you start to dig a little bit deeper how you’re feeling in a certain situation and how you are reacting as a result of it. This I call self inquiry.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
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Navigating Social Isolation: “If you have the feeling, I don’t belong here, nobody is interested in me, you’re withdrawing, and you don’t, to contribute in any way. And if you just say, I feel left out. I feel the whole conversation is without me, then you can ask yourself, how could I bring myself in?” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
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Innovative Management Strategies: “these other aspects I wanted to talk about, this holacracy is really a very new approach where you can get rid of this kind of entitlement because there are no titles anymore there are roles.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
Questions Discussed in the Interview
- How can the concept of holacracy change the traditional dynamics between bosses and their subordinates in a company?
- Can you give examples of how misaligned values between a leader and their team might impact decision-making and overall team performance?
- Why might feedback from employees about their leaders be crucial for understanding and strengthening a company’s culture?
- Discuss how promotions based on relationships with superiors rather than performance or teamwork could affect a company’s morale and efficiency.
- What are some of the common cognitive biases that leaders may unknowingly exhibit, and how can these biases affect their decision-making and team management?
- In what ways can the use of “we, I, it” as communication frames help improve interactions within a team?
- What tools or strategies would you recommend for introverted leaders to effectively manage and lead their teams?
- How does shifting towards a model with defined roles and greater autonomy potentially affect employee motivation and productivity?
- Can you explore how the transition to a holacratic approach might impact the recruitment process and the kind of talent that companies attract?
- What are the potential challenges and benefits of implementing an agile mindset from the top management down, and how can this impact the company’s adaptability to market changes?
**Defining Organizational Roles**: “A role always has a purpose. So what is the role now? Take like, what’s the objective of the whole thing and accountability.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
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**Redefining Leadership in Modern Workplaces**: “there is still a lead of a circle that this person doesn’t have any title anymore, so that person can give the strategy, that person can allocate some work, can define rules, can ask where people are in the process, but that person can’t hire and fire anymore, and meetings are also not governed necessarily anymore by that lead.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
The Audio Podcast is set to go live on Thursday, May 16th, 2024
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**Transforming Workplace Culture**: “It’s a culture change. It’s not something that you snip, it’s not with your fingers and it’s there, but it’s worth to really think about the way you’re currently managing, and how are your resources are really spread.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
The Guest
Silke Glaab (https://www.linkedin.com/in/silkeglaab/) is a renowned Leadership and Executive Coach who brings to the table an extensive background in organizational psychology. With her expertise, she assists high-level executives and teams in harnessing their leadership skills, communication strategies, and emotional intelligence to enhance their professional environments. A proponent of innovative organizational structures, Silke emphasizes the importance of holistic, agile methodologies that align with modern business demands and challenges. Her approach typically involves deep dives into self-inquiry, leadership adaptability, and strategic rethinking of traditional corporate hierarchies to improve overall corporate health and employee satisfaction.
In addition to her coaching responsibilities, Silke has been involved in various transformative projects across multiple industries, advocating for structural reevaluations to promote efficiency and inclusivity. She has a noteworthy academic foundation, holding advanced degrees in psychology and having conducted research on leadership dynamics and organizational behavior. This scholarly backdrop enriches her coaching and consulting practices, enabling her to offer nuanced insights and implement evidence-based strategies. Silke’s role goes beyond coaching; she is a thought leader in redefining organizational landscapes to foster environments where innovation and collaboration flourish, making her a sought-after expert in the realm of leadership coaching and workplace transformation.
Silke’s Resources
- Website https://brainboss.io
- 5 Habits Highly Successful Leaders Never Do https://brainboss.io/report (English)
- 5 Stolpersteine der Führung https://brainboss.io/Bericht (Deutsch)
Modern Leadership Approaches: “It’s really a new way how you see your employees and a new way of leadership. Because if you go for status, if you go for influence, if you go for power, then this approach won’t be the right one anymore. If you say, okay, actually, I want to empower everybody and I want to get the best ideas from everybody and I want to have an overview what’s really needed in this organization.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
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Interview Part One
This interview is part two of our interviews with Silke. Find the first one here:
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The Interviewer
This interview was conducted by Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. Reach out to him:
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Corporate Agility in Modern Business: “If you want to have innovation, if you want to bring up new ideas, then these kinds of agile teams, bureaucracy are really the new way to go because you also want to react very fast to the market.” — Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach
Automated Transcript
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:00:00]:
Hello, and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from Startupradio dot I o, your Startupradio podcast and YouTube blog from Germany, bringing you again another episode in our series entrepreneur tools. This time again with Silke. You may remember her from the last episode. Nonetheless, would you like to introduce yourself briefly to our audience again, Silke?
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:00:21]:
Yeah. Thank you very much, Johan, for inviting me again. Yeah. My name is Sike Glav. I’m an organizational psychologist and executive coach, and I’m very happy to share some tools that you can apply in your busy daily life.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:00:38]:
Yes. The the last time we have spoken, I titled it strategies to sharpen your entrepreneurial decision making. What are we going to talk about today? Because you did some extensive preparations. We we tried to keep it short this time. Last time, we we went over an hour. We try to keep it a little bit shorter this time.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:01:02]:
Yeah. So today, I wanted to share something on the communication side, what kind of frame you can use to improve your communication skills, and then also a tip if you’re more like an introvert in in as a personality and what kind of tools you can use then, and also some self inquiry as a leader, and if you have then still some time remaining, I would like to talk about something called holocracy. Holocracy, the new trend if you want to expand your business and you start with few people and then you’re expanding very fast. So it’s a new approach to a company structure.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:01:53]:
Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. So let’s dive in and I’ll give you the floor. And as always, I bother you with some questions, here and there. And everybody who would like to learn more, go down here in the show notes. There is a link to our blog post where people can reach out to you on your LinkedIn profile and so on and so forth.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:02:14]:
Okay. Great. So let let’s talk about the we, I, it frame. Some people maybe also know the Schulz von Tuhan model, but let’s talk today about the we, I, it frame. We stands for, first of all, what kind of relationship we have with each other when you’re in a communication. Is it equal? Is there a hierarchy? Is there some disturbance between us? That also goes into the we. Then it’s also important in any way if you negotiate or you have any form of communication, and someone is more opposing. It’s also very clever to use more we.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:03:06]:
So find common interest between you and the other person and then use the phrase we. If we want to achieve that, then we should or we could consider. This brings the 2 parties together and it creates, yeah, a sense that both of you are standing at the same side of the table, so to say.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:03:35]:
It’s also something like like a trick to make it non personal. Because if I tell, somebody, no. You should not do it like that, you’re smart ass. But if you tell somebody, somebody told me to do it like that, you’re not as smart ass. But, basically, you’re communicating the the same information.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:03:53]:
Yeah. And you always try to bring both sides on board when you say also the we, phrase. You already spoke about the I. I statements are still very important because you don’t want to offend someone and come all the time what you already said with you. The main statement is that you can speak more about your observation. I observe that when we are in this situation, you become a little bit more rigid and I become more defensive. Is there a way we could solve that, to have a better communication with each other? The I statement is really a feeling you have, and feelings can’t be debated because it’s very individual for each and everybody, and the other one is that you speak more about an observation. And then we have the it.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:05:00]:
It can be its facts, mostly facts and data. And with this, also consider what you want. Are you prepared for the theme? Because in each and every communication, you should be also aware where the whole thing is, going. And if a communication is spark, you can also refresh it if you say, imagine. Yeah. If someone is difficult, like, more difficult to follow your advice, you could just phrase it like this, imagine. Imagine this would work out. What needs to happen? And there you bring also the person into a different state of mind because for being defensive and trying to find new arguments, you’re now invited to imagine something.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:05:59]:
This is very clever indeed. And then you still have the you. And if you want to address the you, address it in a way that you have really listened to the other person. You can say, if I understood you right, you mean this and this and this. You can also say, black is how the person is feeling. It seems you feel confused about it. And then the other person can rectify it, and it also gives you a sense, the feeling level again and pulls also that to make aware that you are following what the other person is saying, but you’re also following how the other person maybe feels about a certain situation, And if you really study that frame and you apply it, you will really see a shift in your communication. Even if you want to start an email, just consider these, 4 types.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:07:12]:
The we, form common interest, form common ground, I statement about your feelings, stay to the think, maybe imagine if we do if we did that, this could look like that. And then the you is more in an individual conversation. So with this, we have targeted the we, I, it, Do you have any further questions on on this one, Jan, or some experiences in difficult conversations you had?
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:07:50]:
Nothing I could share public.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:07:52]:
Okay. Okay. Then let’s move on. If you are more an introvert, you’re not the big communicator. It’s very wise be because introverts often have a quiet reservoir of knowledge. If you use text message in form of emails, reports, presentations, to really communicate your vision, communicate what is important for you because introverts are often quite very good in written text. If you want to talk with people, they preferably try to to meet them in one at once. And another very good tip, I believe, is that you are paraphrasing, that you become a very good listener without you talking too much.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:08:57]:
Invite the other person to talk, you ask questions, you rectify what you have understood, and surprisingly people believe that after that you’re very, very good communicator because they feel really hurt if you are not talking yourself all the time. And another one is what I also send a lot with my private clients, or that’s something I invite my clients to do is self inquiry. If you are in a certain situation, just become vulnerable first of all to yourself. What are you feeling in a certain situation? Why are you reacting? Or you can ask yourself, why am I reacting to this situation like this? Say, for example, with Kent. The Kent felt very, like, how can you say, not listened to in group Menninger, and then I invited the client really to go deeper. So what’s really going on in the client’s head? What is he telling himself? What is a feeling reaction he has at that very moment that the whole conversation takes place without him in this very moment. And this really invites you to come more to the bottom. Is there maybe a pukran running that you are quite aware of and that’s running maybe already for a couple of years? And often it stems also from childhood experiences.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:10:46]:
And if you start to dig a little bit deeper how you’re feeling in a certain situation and how you are reacting as a result of it. This I call self inquiry. Another one is also to ask yourself, the way I lead, does that contribute to the purpose of this organization? What kind of values do I have? And also where are my strengths or what are my strengths and where I have some biases, some cognitive biases that I want to explore a little bit more. This is all about you as a leader, and then also you can look how you are practicing or behaving as a leader. Are you able to motivate your team? Are you able to coach them? Are you able to inspire them? And are you also empathic? Can you understand how certain team members are feeling in your team? I I yeah. So this is now in really in in very, like, brief, fast sentences what I wanted to
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:12:03]:
The problem, to me has always been that the worst leaders, think of themselves very highly. But it’s it’s always a problem to really discuss something like this objectively. Many, companies do a review, or the boss reviews his employees, but it’s barely the case that the bosses get reviewed by their employees. And I do believe that’s something you should totally bring up. That is an opportunity to improve. But when you talk about the self reflection, do you have some kind of technique or techniques where you can use? Because, when you just start thinking about one one situation at work or something like this, you usually get on the wrong path if you just try to go down your own rabbit hole. Is there something that would help with those reflections here?
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:13:04]:
Yeah. It for me, the the basic terms is, again the feeling. Can you remember last time we also spoke about feelings? And then I said that’s a very important vocabulary for you to inquire because you act because based of certain feelings and emotions you have, and the first step is to observe yourself. That’s actually mindfulness, to hold, to pause, and to become aware of what’s happening inside your body. Maybe in the beginning it’s a sensation in your body and then you label it with a certain feeling, and out of this, you react. And if you are more equipped and better equipped to label your feelings right, you will have different reactions. Let’s go back to that meeting. If that person feels like, not part, not to belong, then you withdraw.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:14:07]:
Yeah. If you have the feeling, I don’t belong here, nobody is interested in me, you’re withdrawing, and you don’t, to contribute in any way. And if you just say, I feel left out. I feel the whole conversation is without me, then you can ask yourself, how could I bring myself in? It’s not so strong then when you say I don’t belong because that’s a really basic need we have to belong. But if you say, I I feel I’m getting more quiet. I observe myself getting more quiet. I sense that I’m going, like, more inside myself. So what’s really going on? Is that I don’t belong, or is it more I feel left out or I I I don’t feel included? And then you can ask yourself, what can I do to to bring myself back into that? Yeah? And, also, saying, still part of the team, they didn’t ask me to to leave.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:15:22]:
It’s now my own reaction to what I feel in that very moment. To ask about your values is to ask, what do I want to achieve as a leader? What is important for me when I’m in the position of the leader? And then you come to your values. Do you say empowerment is important for you, or do you say, status is important for me, influence is important for me, or is it more collaboration? And to ask yourself what kind of motives, what kind of goals do you have in your workplace as a leader? Yeah. That’s some some tools I I would recommend, and then also get, more known about some biases you may have which, also affect your decision making. We spoke about them also last time.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:16:21]:
There’s no experiences here. The most important metrics for getting promoted, getting noticed by by your superiors is something you could see in a PowerPoint presentation or an Excel sheet. The best ways to get your team to work on this is something you can’t capture in Excel sheets or PowerPoint presentations. So that’s that’s basically where you first have to lay the groundwork. You you should be a friend of mine always calls it seagull management. You know, the seagulls, they come in, they scream around, and then they disappear again.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:16:57]:
Yeah. And and you also mentioned that employees are assessing their leaders. It’s in future number of company, it’s quite common to have this 30, 160 degree feedbacks. And this is exactly the what comes from the ground, and, it’s not always very pleasant for for the leader up. It can be also used as some politics around. Originally, it’s a very great tool to get insight or insights and perspectives from different levels to see what kind of culture, is really in that organization, to to also expect feedback.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:17:44]:
You can already tell, that a culture of a company is broken if the leader can select who gives you feedback or if you just cannot select the persons you want to give feedback on. If there are strict rules, if they’re implemented thoroughly, the bosses decide who gives feedback about them. You can already tell, why should they do that?
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:18:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s very, very obvious. Yes.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:18:20]:
I I I’ve seen companies from the inside that do that.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:18:24]:
Yeah. It’s a question to to me.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:18:28]:
No. No. No. No. It’s
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:18:29]:
It’s a statement from Joe.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:18:32]:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I’m sorry, but but that is something, you always talk about employee performance and measuring them, but you don’t measure the leaders. And usually, I do believe that really holds true. The saying goes, people are coming for the challenges and leaving, due to bad management. And I’ve seen over and over and over again that companies just keep the bad managers and hire new people instead of asking different and difficult questions here.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:19:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then you see that through a a more hierarchy level, maybe the upper managers or supervisors, they’re not always aware what other team leaders are doing and therefore these, feedbacks from the employers are a very good tool It needs to be embedded in a culture where it’s safe. We call it psychological safety. Even if that feedback was not so good, it’s not used like an instrument now to downgrade the Menninger, but to really have honest discussion how that manager can improve. And this is what I call psychological safety, so it’s for everybody in that organization. And then you also have a higher chance that that leader takes it up and really tries to to grow in it.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:20:06]:
The yeah. What I want to add is that I’ve made the experience in more established companies. The people get promoted because their bosses like them and not their employees like them. And if you really want to work on a company culture, you should question this old paradigm.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:20:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s also like the con the cognitive biases of maybe that person is similar to me and therefore I like it. I like that person.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:20:36]:
Not not only that but also the bias. He has now the title of whatever. He is now a director of many, many things, and therefore, he knows it better than the people he has worked with in a team for 5 years. Why? It’s just a title.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:20:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and therefore, these other aspects I wanted to talk about, this holacracy is really a very new approach where you can get rid of this kind of entitlement because there are no titles anymore there are roles. So it’s a new approach. You you want me to to go further on on this one? Yeah? Joe, well, accuracy also stems from where agile management, somehow stopped. And then there were some great guys who said, okay, let’s bring that even a little bit further on an organization level, and it’s quite appealing for start up companies because you may start with, some few employers and then rapidly you grow, and in this case the the founder, the CEO, is not able to take all responsibilities anymore. So these guys, they said, okay. Let’s just leave any director and vice president and whatever the names are and really look deeply what kind of activities.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:22:09]:
Let let’s the hypothesis that you said that you had maybe 4 employees or 6 employees, and you did also quite a lot for yourself and then it’s growing now, and then you really define what activities are really needed in this organization, and then you give it a role. A role always has a purpose. So what is the role now? Take like, what’s the objective of the whole thing and accountability. So a role can be that, doing website development and purpose is to create an excellent website and activities is the whole design work. Then also maybe someone who is responsible, has the role to alert if there are any kind of bugs in the system and then my accountability is that I also take care of that one. And in these activities, I do everything when it comes to web design. But maybe I also have a role in marketing because as I know the whole software, I know the the software design and graphic design are also very good in selling. So I also have a role in the sales team.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:23:35]:
So it’s more that there is a marketing team, and there are only the marketeers with a role you can be part of different circles. So departments become circles. And I found that really interesting because with this, you can cover up whatever activity is coming up. Now you will ask so that’s very confusing. Yeah? So if everybody has a role now, who is now the lead? And, actually, there is still a lead of a circle that this person doesn’t have any title anymore, so that person can give the strategy, that person can allocate some work, can define rules, can ask where people are in the process, but that person can’t hire and fire anymore, and meetings are also not governed necessarily anymore by that lead. The lead is there to make sure the strategy is there. There is a vision for this circle and that, like, to to follow-up and more monitor the process, and he can’t just say you have to take up that work. So you can’t just say okay do this one now, you have to request.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:25:10]:
There is a new way how you bring people together. It’s a mode of conduct. So as a lead, you can request that someone takes additional work. Other team members can also do that, and the person that it’s us can say yes or Joe, but if the person says no, they have to really bring arguments that rectify that where the person can’t take up further work. Then, also, as a leader, you can request that people prioritize their task. So if you see that according to the strategy, certain task needs to be done, and someone is working on something else, you can streamline that. You can say, according to the strategy, kindly everybody in that role, prioritize now on the strategy. And you can also request that people, open up their work, what they’re doing in that very moment.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:26:17]:
So the the miniature becomes more the lead the lead of the circle, But meetings will be governed by someone else because in that circle, there’s also the role of holding a meeting, like the facilitator of the meeting, and that’s not necessarily the lead of that team circle. So I found that really, really interesting because at any time, you know what the role and accountability of a certain person is. Do you have any is this new for me that you never
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:26:56]:
I’ve seen so many companies from the outside and the inside, during my 15 years of consulting work. And I do believe, a lot of people are now getting really confused. How can I enforce the rules? And other people, I I I know, especially in higher management, they pride themselves. Yeah. I have 15 direct reports. If you’re leading a circle, you can’t talk about direct reports anymore. So I do believe that that alone will be some, some some some obstacles to change. But guys, don’t get me wrong.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:27:33]:
I’m not necessarily bashing your traditional models and saying they’re all wrong. I’m giving you some examples in order for you to think about how your organization should be, how it is, and what else you could do. Joe, basically, you could see it between, Circle who gives you new ideas. And I give you some old ideas and you can think about what will work better for you. There’s no judgment either way. Only only only you should allow every employee to to leave a review for every employee.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:28:09]:
Yeah. And in this model, of course, it it’s, really a cultural change, and it’s easier if you start from a start up, yeah, and and you apply that. They are really governing rules, Jorn, in in that approach, alone that you say there is really this all agreement of transparency, then this thing to prioritize, and also to open up where you are in in the process, Then even you have discovering meetings where everybody, like, in very brief Menninger, say where they are and what they need. Do they need any resources? And the the manager as such is not relevant anymore. It’s more to give him the strategy. And if someone in in the team in a government meeting says, okay, I’m now totally overworked, or I realized we don’t we we haven’t covered a certain role, then even a team member can request a new role. It it’s a culture change. It’s not something that you snip, it’s not with your fingers and it’s there, but it’s worth to really think about the way you’re currently managing, and how are your resources are really spread.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:29:39]:
And also in this, people have autonomy Joe they can define how they interpret this role in what like, in which way they want to fulfill their task, but they also are bound to certain restrictions so that they actually always, when they’re requested, they they really have to open up where they are and they also ask to prioritize. And if it comes to budget, you can’t just spend things Joe there is another, like, lead or circle that’s responsible for for this one. And it’s really a new way how you see your employees and a new way of leadership. Because if you go for status, if you go for influence, if you go for power, then this approach won’t be the right one anymore. If you say, okay, actually, I want to empower everybody and I want to get the best ideas from everybody and I want to have an overview what’s really needed in this organization. It’s not to come out with with job descriptions, but with, yeah, prescriptions of where you’re responsible for accountability and define that for what that person is accountable for and not to have an endless job description. So you can act quite ad hoc if a new activity needs to be covered. You can easily discuss that within the circle.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:31:24]:
We will take it up.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:31:26]:
And I was wondering when you’ve been talking about that. It’s not about status anymore. It’s not about titles anymore. If you’re considering to implement this in your company, you should also think about how it will impact your recruiting and what different people that approach may attract to your company.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:31:47]:
Yeah. Definitely more the the younger generation, who really like to work in teams with each other and who have this transparency. And with this, if you are there actually is no research, so a hierarchical structure is quite good if you have to make a very fast decision or it’s a very complex thing. Then you have all the hierarchy the the process is very well defined, but it hinders innovation. If you want to have innovation, if you want to bring up new ideas, then these kinds of agile teams, bureaucracy are really the new way to go because you also want to react very fast to the market. And I don’t know if have you followed Bayer? Yeah? They really had to change immediately, and it’s a big complex company with several hierarchy levels, and they realized that their shares are really falling and they also realized that they are not near to their customers anymore. And then this new CEO came in, and he said Joe only way this company can survive is if we have this kind of teams circles, and then it was discussed with the union. And just to save also jobs, there will be a lot of hierarchies are already not there anymore.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:33:26]:
And they work in this kind of everybody has a new word for it, but in the end, it’s circles where people have defined roles and they can be member of different circles to bring really up the best talent, innovation, and the strength someone is bringing to the team and to react very fast and, very individual what customers need.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:33:56]:
Another aspect that comes to mind when you’ve been talking about that, not being close to the clients anymore. I’m I’m not saying that this agile mindset will change that necessarily, but I’ve heard from, several people, over and over again. There’s a certain size, maybe 3 and a half 1000, maybe 5,000 employees when a company just getting busy with itself and kind of losing touch with the market because they have so much internal administration, so much internal politics. And you should also keep that in mind. Maybe a few of the listeners out there are building up companies that will get you this size at one point. And so that is also something you should have in mind. As I said, no no challenges, no best, no worst approach, just a lot to think about here.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:34:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. And how do you want to govern your organization? And also in desulocracy, you can also still as the CEO, you can still be part of circles. You also have a specific role in the circle so that you keep, like, the overview, and you are also part of the board that’s now surrounding each, of the circles. I personally found find it a very interesting approach, especially when it comes to volatility, what is expected from organizations and if you have the chance to build it up in this way then you’re already, like, proven for the future. And the other ones, just just think about it. Yeah. Is that something you feel aligned? Because this will evolve, involve really in cultural change.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:35:45]:
That’s not something, okay, we just put bring some agile tools into our organization. We do some stand ups instead of long Menninger. We just stand and then everybody just reports where they are and what they need and then maybe you have a kanban board but that won’t make you agile only because you’re just applying some interventions. It really needs the complete mindset of, agility and leading differently.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:36:17]:
Mhmm. And it usually doesn’t work if you want to press an agile mindset into existing project portfolios. I’ve seen that and basically it’s it’s it’s like you want to hammer a square into a circle. It just doesn’t work. It breaks it breaks at the end. So, usually not a good idea.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:36:40]:
Yeah. Completely not good idea. And and therefore, if you really go for it, it has to start with the top management. People have to be trained, have to be adjusted, yeah, and bring the right people in in into the teams. Because everybody before I I ask the question, what kind of motives or what drives you as a leader? So are you going for empowerment, collaboration, or are you going for what I repeatedly said power, influence? And then you will always have different people in the team and then mix them up. Yeah. Because you don’t want only people who like to be social. You also want to have maybe some people in the team who look and try to influence that that people are moving forward and not only have a nice time with each other.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:37:41]:
So bringing different characters into a team, I I believe, is also important.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:37:48]:
Mhmm. Exactly. Throwing together the the the the the most diverse people has always helped me as one of the best projects I was in was when I was boss of, 45 people from 9 different countries, was very, very interested very interesting project there. Sorry. Go ahead.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:38:09]:
Joe these were some ideas concerning, yeah, your communication, your self inquiry, and, holocristy. It’s something to really ponder about and search search for these different approaches. And I I hope you got some new knowledge, some food for thought. Yeah. This would make me really happy. Johan, anything that you are interested in?
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:38:48]:
I also do have a lot to think about because in the past, I’ve I’ve worked with agile methodology with different build up approaches, and I’ve been always kind of swinging between corporate world and Startupradio world. I that that’s why I try to contrast you in the second piece a little bit more for the very simple reason. Because one is very, very much picture book Startupradio. The other one is very, very much active lift corporate life, large corporate life. And there’s always a truth somewhere in between that you should find out there either as an employee and look for the right company with the right culture with the right approach Or if you’re yourself in charge of company or parts of the company, you should think about what do you really want and contrast both ways and actually not try to do everything because that that always just doesn’t work.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:39:46]:
Yeah. And and start with a pilot. So if you’re already quite a mature company, maybe you start in one, department with this new approach. We because, like, I I don’t even know how they manage to break all these hierarchies and force people in into these teams, but but it’s forceful. I
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:40:10]:
I I do believe they could only do it with economic necessity because if there
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:40:16]:
No. It’s out of necessity.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:40:18]:
Suppressing economic need, you would navigate that change too Would work.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:40:24]:
Yeah. So but but that’s happening there. So if you’re, like, okay, I I’m quite intrigued by it and you’re open minded, then we always, yeah, I always recommend start with a department that’s also open minded and try this new approach out, and then you may spread it to other departments too. So all these agile things, they started in software development. If you are in software development, maybe you’re already doing it with your programmers. Yeah, where we’d start in a department that’s easy and open minded to try it out and then, make a baseline, measure was there an improvement, and then you can discuss how you want to bring it further.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:41:21]:
Actually pretty good closing words. Everybody would like to learn more, go down here in the show notes, and there’s link to my LinkedIn profile, and there’s a link to CIRCLE’s LinkedIn profile. We can leave some feedback as well as give us a good review and thumbs up wherever you’re listening to this or watching this.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:41:39]:
Yeah. And I say really thank you, Jiran, for giving me this opportunity to share, these tools on your podcast. And to all the listeners and watchers, I hope you can really take something for yourself out of it. Also, really pleasure.
Jörn “Joe” Menninger [00:41:56]:
Pleasure was totally mine. Have a good day. Hope to have you back someday. Bye bye.
Silke Glaab — Leadership and Executive Coach [00:42:02]:
Bye.
