Learn from Maria — Investor in several of Germany’s renowned startups
This story was migrated from our old blog, originally published on December 1st, 2020.
Learn from Maria — Investor in several of Germany’s renowned startups
Normally you want to invest in people who you already know.
Maria Pennanen, Startup Investor
The Enabler
This interview is part of our series of startups and investors in the startup scene in the state of Hessen. The whole series is sponsored by Hessen Trade and Invest, you can learn more about our enabler here: www.invest-in-hessen.com
Find all interviews from this series (which is not finished yet) here on our dedicated sub-podcast:
Startup investment is a very risky business
Maria Pennanen, Startup Investor
The Investor
In this interview we talk to Maria Pennanen, she is known to our established audience as co-founder of Accelerator Frankfurt, but she is also a Business Angel with more than 10 direct investments. Directly and indirectly, she is or was invested in many renowned startups like Solarisbank, Clark, Bankify, Savedo or Finance Ads. They have also an upcoming demo day from the Accelerator Frankfurt. You find the registration here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfMyI9LI8Lq-xHOl6qUg6nFsRsq__7QZn0sVmoycvH_vtvsyg/viewform
You can learn more about Maria here:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/pennanenmaria
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariapennanen/
- Accelerator Frankfurt: https://www.acceleratorfrankfurt.com/
- Mindclip: https://www.mindclip.com/
The best thing to start is joining a business angel organization
Maria Pennanen, Startup Investor
The Author
Maria is also the author of the book “how to f*ck up your startup” in which she helps entrepreneurs learn from failures. You can find the eBook here https://amzn.to/3oa2Stw
Affiliate Links
Why not learn from entrepreneurs and executives who are open to share their favorite books. We skimmed through some recommendations and that is what we found.
- Recommended by: Bill Gates
“Enlightenment Now by Steven Pinker” https://amzn.to/2XAENlB - Recommended by: Jeff Bezos
“Built to Last: Successful Habits of Visionary Companies by Jim Collins and Jerry Porras” https://amzn.to/2RGKGKe - Recommended by: Elon Musk
“Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future by Peter Thiel” https://amzn.to/2REbHhw - Recommended by: Tony Hsieh
“Tribal Leadership: Leveraging Natural Groups to Build a Thriving Organization by Dave Logan” https://amzn.to/34KgraQ - Recommended by: Warren Buffet
“Business Adventures: Twelve Classic Tales From the World of Wall Street by John Brooks” https://amzn.to/2K92z06 - Recommended by: Tim Cook
“Competing Against Time by George Stalk and Thomas Hout” https://amzn.to/3cjMMYn
It is very rare that you invest in an idea from people you just met, especially in seed.
Maria Pennanen, Startup Investor
Investment Approach
Maria started out helping founders and getting sweat equity in return for her work. She continues this tradition and mainly invests in people she knows personally. She also invests in SPVs to invest along with other people and spread the risk.
She also believes in the advantages of the founder over competitors, like experience from past jobs. She also likes to invest in companies with at least two founders.
I do need to believe from the beginning that there is an opportunity. For me the personal relation to the founders is very important.
Maria Pennanen, Startup Investor
The Video Interview is set to go live on December 1st, 2020
Further Readings / Additional Resources
You can find my old interview with Maria, dating back to 2018 here:
Currently, Accelerator Frankfurt is running an all-female program, with wave eight. If you want to learn more about their 7th wave, you can do so for example here:
Feedback
Reach out to us, here is our audience survey, to give us feedback, suggest topics, interview partners or just to say “Hallo!” https://forms.gle/mLV6mVKwGwKuut8BA
The Interviewer
This interview was conducted by Jörn “Joe” Menninger, startup scout, founder, and host of Startuprad.io. Reach out to him:
LinkedIn
Twitter
Email
Transcript
[0:00] Music.
[0:19] Welcome everybody this is Joe from startup radio your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany I am bringing you on a Tuesday publication.
Our interview with hasn’t trade in a vest you may have missed last month’s for the very simple reason Corona kind of wrecked havoc on our
schedule an on all the connections as well as our the schedule of our sponsor.
Nonetheless we do have Maria here for an interview hey Maria how you doing.
[0:55] Hi I’m super I’m doing good very happy to be here.
And you just told me that you are one of the top 12 Twitter’s and you know an ecosystem of Germany and start up so I’m in the right place happy to be here.
Yes I do believe in the past this was called an influenza but I’m not sure if I really want to be one we are talking about.
You
today because I do believe you have a very interesting CV you are now living in Frankfurt and you’re the co-founder of accelerator Frankfurt and in this.
Position you’ve been giving us an interview already you can go down here in the show notes and find this one and I do believe you’re right now add already at wave 8 of your accelerator right.
[1:44] That’s correct so now we are on Wave eight I think we started 2015 and been running more or less of course before the corner happened like on-site programs you know three or four months taking start up that way.
In the beginning very early stage but later on wood model is kind of go to market program.
We’re companies who wanted to enter the German Finance Market would go through a program and get to know it and investors and Investments and also for clients to a program and now.
It’s really the weight date.
[2:13] And I have to say students corners of the way 7 was already an online program so we did purely blockchain program with the with the five companies and it was really successful we actually
very surprised of this fact and many of the companies even got Investments through the program so I think it’s always like that at first you think that oh shit you know.
Maybe the pilot but they know that oh what I’m gonna do you know the life changed on what we used to how we used to see it but tell me
we talked about immigrant who is that who is the founder of Exeter banquet that at what you know they’re now is that you know what are we going to do differently
so we said you know what we had nothing to do so that’s that’s you online let’s see how it works and let’s do a bit like a big brother meets you know Lion’s Den
and and see you know what they can do and I think it was very helpful for investors also because they had the chance to pick a bitly deeper into the startups and how they deal with it and considerations and then I think why we did the wave 8 was
it has really been bothering me for a long time that they are so few female Founders and especially you know through our program we had like 40 companies and one of them.
To be honest had like a pure real female founder in it so we thought you know what if it’s really that difficult so why how can we facilitate it
and we also thought that is probably better to go for early stage companies those who don’t maybe have the you know the network they don’t know other people with whom they could find a company maybe they even single Founders and so we started the way bait.
[3:43] And so I’m very happy about that funnily enough you know we have four females which
three of them are fins the maybe they sell something about the Finnish intrapreneurship but we have a one is a German and she’s great Carla and actually too early no two of these Founders do we have in Germany so we have a good to 50/50 split.
[4:04] Besides that you are also the CEO of a small startup company called my clip work can you wrap up in like a few sentences where you guys are actually doing there.
[4:15] Yes a Minecraft behavior is a team development application.
I would say that during the years you know working with startups and helping them and of course working with the corporate also I realized the biggest problem in companies is that
the teams don’t know how to communicate with each other and I would say that it’s a problem for the team members themselves because they they are misunderstood
and they don’t understand that it’s be their own behavior that they actually cause this kind of reactions and for the corporate also it’s a problem because if the teams don’t work well together they are not so efficient
and as we all know people do not leave the company is for they great vision and Mission they announced they actually often leave the company because they have a bad boss and they stay
because I had a great thing so this is to help the team leaders and helping the community members to really work efficiently together.
Yeah the team usually makes a big difference and we are talking to you
now because you were one of the many many many investors living in the right mind region and you’re investing as a business Angel as well as through indirect means and.
The first thing that I was curious with.
How do you decide to become a business center does it happen by accident or do you just do just decide one day you get up as oh
got some spare money let’s reach out to next business Angel Association and do some investment how did it happen to you.
[5:44] Yeah well I think for me it happened I mean started of course quite long time ago when I was still living in China and you know the financial crisis happened.
Two thousand eight and nine and then you have you know let’s say more time in your hands and you have different kind of people reaching out to so I was living in China and had friends you know from Finland where had their business ideas and who were looking for clients and maybe looking for financing
and I was thinking that these people are really different you know they re crazy you know they they are willing to you know.
Everything they have you know they put their house on a mortgage and you know go for an idea that they really believed in and I was starting to think you know
actually I like this kind of not only that the willingness to take risk but also the fact that they were actually coming up with new ideas and testing went out and it didn’t work they would try something new and not get hung on you know do something that that was like a legacy for them
since they of course had none so I think what we’ll for me it happened in like
I would say more gradually so I started first helping these kind of startups and you know I would get Sweat Equity I would help them work and they would give me some shares and and then of course you know we time and you have some extra money and something that you really believed in you know it was normally like friends and you know someone who we knew you know
had a personal relationship with for a long time because it is a very risky business so normally you want to invest in people that you know so I think for me it’s
started like a bit more gradually and I think in a way it led to you know many of the other things that that we don’t need to know setting up the exit to Frankfurt.
[7:10] But I would say that if one is very new in these areas of course the best thing is.
He’s also to you know to join some business Angel you know conglomerates or you like being frank with my mind we have the organization also then find another
opportunities like myself you know investing to us that in like a special purpose vehicle with other people so they so I think there’s more risk-averse where he’s also doing it.
[7:35] Hmm I see Cece and since we are also available on Himalaya FM in mainland China.
[7:45] Just poking a little bit more where did he live in China for how long and can you say it’s a little bit in Mandarin.
[7:53] Meow she Maria water tower Shanghai is onion so yeah so I lived in Shanghai for Paul for two years three years.
Lived a bit also in Hong Kong and yeah I think I would say the Chinese people are very very Innovative I think they are there they’re the ones who are willing to take big risks and I go for it and try things I think I really enjoyed living there in Shanghai very.
Very vibrant environment you know for sure so for startups my personal experience from China is that.
[8:27] Let’s a little bit a post to Germany or Europe you can always feel the pressure of competition there and that’s why I do believe they are
also forced to be Innovative there and.
[8:43] We now know how you became a business Angel but
I would be know a little bit curious how you’re actually approaching in investment because.
Usually it happens that he get that somebody tells you about crazy idea and in the first moment you think
Dell never work no freaking way and then if you look deeper in it deeper in a deeper in it yeah actually find that their son.
That is really working there for example I always want on a party meeting someone who is running a butterfly farm which apparently is also a valid and.
Business so that was one of the moments that actually something really surprised me and ever since I started digging into that is it is it the same for you.
[9:33] Probably maybe not because for me I I do need to believe in from the beginning that it makes sense let’s say all that there is an interesting opportunity that there’s some kind of market for the idea.
But for me it’s very important to know the person relationship I have with the founders so most of the people that I invest in I’ve known them for a long time.
And you know I helped them I give them some ideas and you know I think that’s how the idea of the X-ray different quote was also born.
Because we realize that it takes time to build a relationship I mean I think it’s very rare that you meet someone and they immediately give you the money
I think that’s all three maybe if you are you have too much and you don’t know what to do with them you maybe you throw them around but that would say the normal way is you know to build a relationship and you know to know you in a way in the in the first beginning especially when you invest in seed.
I mean you invest in the person you believe that you know this person is reliable they’re not going to run away with the money in there that they’re doing something that they actually themselves believe in and when they believe in it you are and you know more inclined to believe in it too.
[10:38] Since you’ve been talking about seed which is a very early stage in startup investing
but admittedly one of the places where I could business Angel makes a real big difference um I would be curious how important are.
[10:54] Stuff like getting a pitch deck getting valid numbers on this because it’s almost hard time their estimate something like this.
How important is it.
Yeah I think it’s very important to know to have a deck that people can understand that you know that you can clearly explain because it’s always more you know difficult to explain something shortly
in a very concise and precise way or saying two sentences what is it that you actually doing
so I think it’s important for yourself as a Founder to have a pitch deck that you know that you are because it means that you have
thought about it you’ve done the research and I think that’s the actually the whole idea of doing a pitch deck that you can demonstrate that you understand what you’re doing.
You understand what it is that you want to accomplish in a long run.
It explains that what how do you see the market you know how to see the other players in it you know and that you can do some simple mathematic calculations.
That’s you know with a certain amount of money you know how far can you get an ID that you understand that life nothing is free.
You know there’s this this certain things that cost money and you know you need people and many things you can’t do alone but it shows you that you have logically thought about the whole process and what is it that you actually need to know to go from A to B.
[12:18] Basically you want to know if they set up a project plan how to achieve world domination rate.
[12:25] Yes hopefully in the end I see see see see let’s say you have.
[12:34] Startup and you are thinking about investing in it what.
Be some red flags you you would at least dig deeper into the startup into the background of that.
[12:51] Well I think it’s it no normally if you look at the person who setting up a company of course I think it’s I don’t normally
well I don’t think I’ve ever invested in very young people you know people without any kind of track record because I think it does tell you something about the person for example you know if you had if you had a couple of employment.
Did you stay there for you know three months or one year or you know they did you did you actually stay there for a long time and then you’re setting up a company that actually somehow based on what you did before
so that you have some kind of expertise in the area either you are a great coder or you are creating marketing or maybe you are building a company in a business area where you were in or maybe you found a niche that you actually you know you have a special like let’s say like like it’s kind of an advantage that the others wouldn’t have
because in the end you probably not going to be the only player in the market so the more let’s say I’m a nation that you have on you you know the door easier it is going to be for you
I think if I would say probably you know we normally say that you should you should have a co-founder so you shouldn’t be a sole founder in the company because if you couldn’t convince anyone else you know to join you as a maybe maybe it’s a red flag.
And I guess you know that say that what is a problem sometimes for companies that maybe did already the like let’s say the pre-seed round.
An approaching and Seed financing is that they have they gave too much of their company away already too early.
Because you know if the company doesn’t have seven or the founders don’t have 75% when you go to seed round.
[14:20] You aren’t in trouble you should preferably have the 75% when you go to Syria say so but of course sometimes it’s
difficulty you know with the how much money you need to do certain things but let’s say that would be those kind of you know things that many people don’t think about it in the beginning.
[14:38] That’s an interesting perspective because they usually you would say our investors they want to have the maximum of.
[14:48] Equity in there but that’s something I’ve heard from a lot of good business angels that you want to have.
The founder running the majority of the equity because they they have an incentive to push it forward.
But it also heard about business angels.
Who want to be the backseat driver personally I’ve been working very closely with business angels who will work as coaches and advisors and sometimes even
normal employees even though they invested a lot of money in the company what is the kind of soup.
If you have a new found out there let’s say a woman who’s looking around in Frankfurt rhyme an area for business angels what would you advise her besides the money but you can how you can profit from a business Angel what would be great.
[15:43] Gil’s Network stuff she should be looking for it yeah I think it’s always good to look for skills that you don’t have.
Because you know you normally like to compliment you know what you have and I think the problem is of course when you are you know young company you maybe you only two people or three people so obviously you always lacking hands of getting things done.
So I think it’s good thing is always you know as I said to think about what how can they help you how can they complement what you already have.
Maybe you know especially of course when they if they have a good Network that is something always valuable you know they can maybe bring you new Investments for your next investment round maybe they can bring your clients maybe they can bring you other contacts
and you know they only experience and and I personally really think it’s very important that the business Angel also understands their role.
So normally they should be I like an advisor and they can be maybe a board member once you get that far and what they should not try to run the company.
Because this is I think this I would say they are these like these Devils who you know who think that if they want to have you know as you said as much of the company as possible but then it doesn’t make any sense.
Because if you think logically.
That there when is the company going to be ready to be lets say exit it in some way if they’re an IBO or you know somebody a bigger company maybe acquires you probably need at these three for investment drums.
[17:08] And if you think about that each investor is wrong is going to dilute the founders by 20% and if you start with 50 I mean.
After one round you are down to you know 30 after the second round it down to 10% how incentivised are the founders going to be to stay in the company and build it so I think it’s very short-sighted or investor think this way
so I think that’s it like really think carefully if one has the luxury of course that one can choose the investors sometimes you just need to take the money where you can get it but at least try to understand that you know what and make it clear maybe from the beginning what is the expectations of them.
The business angel.
[17:43] Personal experience would have also been working in the past with other startups is they have very good business angels who are
critical voices not to say you have like constant fights within the companies but they give you a different perspective they make you
I think there’s also something I would be looking for in a business Angel as well as if you’re looking like in a B2B context in B2B sales it experiences almost everything there.
And they know all the meatrix there and that is also something in my personal experience that you would be looking for.
In a business Angel if you are going into B2B what.
[18:33] Is a normal way people approach you for.
Investments in their startup is it is it your network is it as something like Twitter
I’ve been already recording an interview with the CEO of HTG F Hi-Tech.
Pune for Europe’s most active seat investor and he said he would even reply to an email that says just in the headline.
We should talk would you do that as well
well I think it depends I would say I don’t think I get investment proposals so much on Twitter but of course a lot through a LinkedIn people sending me but they pitch decks and you know like I could you help us you know Finding find investors I’m like excuse me.
I don’t know you who you are who are you I mean what is the connection here.
And I think of course it depends I would say that normally for me that they would have to somehow be connected to me before you know like it.
That they come to a recommendation by someone else or we build in a relationship over time over even even maybe over online
but I would say still I’m quite traditional in this way so I you know I get to know people you know I want to understand what they’re doing you know so no I wouldn’t probably reply to that Joe email now.
[19:59] I really had to smile here finish girl who lived and worked in Shanghai started being a business Angel all across the world and she says or other more traditional person.
I really like that one when you’ve been talking about Pitch text it was.
When they was just a question we already talked about the importance of pitch decks but what is what are some of the.
Mistakes you are actually seeing like in terms of in terms of mistakes people are making in.
Pitch decks because.
From my personal experience is they are much too confined in that very small world and I only think in those terms and don’t think bigger like.
[20:50] The usual thing you’re saying is in Consulting a slide is good when your grandmother will understand it most of the slides I did not even my mother would understand nonetheless what what are the mistakes you
yeah maybe maybe people should try to be more creative but no I think it’s a I had to say they are some great tools nowadays like you know there’s this company called pitch.com
they tried to make it easy for people to you know to come up with some more may be easy to understand
pitch decks but I think in the end of course the purpose of a pitch deck is just to try to somehow convey you know what is the two doing in a short precise way and making people interested you know the idea is not I think that try to explain everything that you’re doing in a pitch deck is impossible
the idea would be that it’s a support tool that you go you know once you have we always talk about the short deck you know that is.
[21:55] Have to make people curious interested that they actually even bother talking to you and then you have the long day
that you’re actually going to present to the person explaining everything going in detail seeing or what they find in easy to understand what is difficult to understand and I think that the mistake as it were also referring to often is the people try to put too much into the pitch deck
and this is not the purpose you know nobody is going to give you money just based on 10 slides or six slides so the whole purpose is to try to make them think that okay this person actually thought about
what they want you to tell me.
[22:25] Is like you have these 30 second elevator speeches or whatever so trying to make people you know curious understand our is this something I can relate to because normally people invest also in stuff that they understand so trying to maybe take the point of view of an investor so thinking okay what this investor how would I make them interested how can make these make this problem
very concrete for them to understand and we always say you have to stop with the problem and then you come with the solution not that you come up with a great solution and then you try to fit the problem into it.
Which also of course unfortunately happens very often you fall in love in a something that you really like to do.
[22:59] I think like we see a lot with blockchain people try to you know everything is work chain and you know then they find out the reason why this works and should be used and you know whatever but I think you’ll really like
keeping it simple not putting too many words in a slide and as you say it’s time to make a five-year-old understand sometimes maybe they understand more than we think.
But still a couple of sentences in each light and maybe you know trying to use visuals you know somehow to explain and show you know what is it that they actually that you trying to accomplish and of course having some kind of numbers like at least you know.
What is it at how much money you trying to raise and what is it that maybe at returns do with it but I think in the beginning I said the simple deck is just explained what you know there’s a problem
you know why is it the problem and the solutions like this and you know how is urgent you know
solve this thing and why would people in actually spend money in doing this thing that you’re doing and of course if you can show show one you should.
Be able to show some kind of traction if you don’t have clients yet at least show how you develop something in a such a certain time period
to show that you know the sun’s activity going because nobody’s going to invest in someone who has a wonderful idea and waiting for people to give the money before they can start that is not going to happen.
[24:08] Personal experience the pitch decks are usually considered good when you have a compound annual growth rate on it and and it has to be above a thousand percent it goes like this whoa.
Day we could talk much more about this but everybody who’s curious can of course reach out to you directly
this interview is sponsored by a hasn’t trade and invest in head invest in Hanson.com of course go down here in the eternals there’s link and you can find it.
I will be curious what are your thoughts because we know each other for quite some time and.
Can you spill a few Secrets just between you and me and like 20 25 thousand people listening or seeing this podcast with it what do you think about the right mind region as a startup hub from the perspective.
Investor yes I think it’s a
of course I love frank would so let’s let’s see no stop with the Positive no it’s not it’s so I really I really love it I think it’s very International I think they’re great people there and I think we have also great intrapreneurs in people who are willing to you know
take a risk and start something new which is of course super super important maybe because of the let’s say a little bit.
[25:33] Stiff and you know I’m fins are we always say things very directly I would say a little bit and motivating environment that we may be sometimes encounter in Frankfurt from you know certain certain
you know let’s say that if the environment will be a bit more stimulating people maybe wouldn’t go to Berlin or wouldn’t go somewhere else and personally I.
Pinkberry in this nice place to visit but I wouldn’t want to live there so I think I think Franklin has a great potential of really being something where startups actually also want to stay
we have of course couple of good example of also very successful startups that are saying in Frank would like Clark and some others but I think this is probably what what is a little bit needed that it
people would feel and I do think those people who are lived while in Frank would they do also try to stay there you know and and I think also the money is not a problem because a lot of there is a lot of money Frank word and the area you have all these retired bankers and your people with.
Pockets full of money that don’t know what to do with it
joke aside side but the I think it’s you know you have great infrastructure you know have a you know big airport you can fly anywhere you want to go go with the train whatever means of travel you choose and of course nowadays.
[26:43] You know you can do actually a lot do remotely and I think but maybe some people are still a bit more you know traditional and would like to meet in person if you have no other let’s say strong links to it your person so I think from work
from an Investor’s point of view is always and all the more of course startups you have the bigger chance you have that some of them are good.
So I think that the main point for Frank will be too how can you stimulate that more people would actually you know found their own startup so then we have some more to choose from.
[27:13] And probability probability commands that the more startups you have two more good ones will be.
Between them and the more ultimately very successful startups will be there actually would with a have seen.
Tendency.
After the crisis I’ve experienced so far here is after every crisis there is like a handful of or more than a handful of people just a handful that I meet.
Who are leaving the corporate job and setting up startups I do believe that is also something you don’t usually
half in a lot of other places its unique here and.
I also do like that even though Frankfurt I would say is a little bit more on the B2B side as opposed to other places like Berlin where they a little bit more on the b2c business to clients I did do you think that as well.
[28:16] Yes and I
of course I’m I’ve never really you know I my expertise is nothing B to C so I personally believe that there’s a lot you can do with B2B and of course the thing is maybe it’s a longer
road so to say to get the client but once you have them let’s say you are probably more secured in also to keeping them
so I think it’s you know in a way every ecosystem or every city should or whatever area they should concentrate in what they’re good at and I think Frank would has this unique opportunity that we have so many financial institute’s and so many banks there and also I think I would say for people who are maybe wondering of if they should set up their company or not is that they should
test out you know you shouldn’t just quit your job and you know I’m going to be interpreted and you can also do that some people have I mean some of us
do that but they know it’s not for everybody but I would say
you can if you can experiment a lot of stuff you know with even when you are working but like on your own you are you’re a great example of that I mean you tested your idea before you decided to do go full on.
And I think that is that is.
Right way to do it you know to like test it out because sometimes we have a maybe a bit glorified idea how great the thing is that we want to do so it’s better maybe to test it out talk to people you know and find some.
Some feedback and and you know to then do it on your speeding when you feel that okay this is actually has a let’s say more than 50% chance of becoming a success so go for it.
[29:39] And the full disclaimer you don’t need to be in the podcast charts of 41 countries from Japan to Paraguay from the S to Hong Kong before you can start on your own it’s
it’s totally sufficient if you do your first sale and that should be totally fine.
[29:59] That would be one more thing I would be curious about where can.
Apply for like the next wave of the accelerator Frankfurt where they can learn where can they learn more about you
of course we link stuff like accelerator Frank for Twitter account your personal LinkedIn profile I do believe you have a personal Twitter account as well we link.
Here as well and so people can reach out to you stalk you everywhere and that’s totally fine.
[30:30] Just when is the next wave starting and would it be all once again an all-female program.
[30:39] Well I think it’s too early to say so the current way where we have this four amazing women you know me and I know Hannah and Carla.
So we are you know they all B2B but some of them are you know like Carla’s really early stage is still looking for her
perfect co-founder and as our say that they know very very very difficult decision is more than you know finding the right husband is because you’re really stuck this on once we set up a company anyway
but I think the you know the did they demo day is going to be on the 16th of December and there’s sure they’re certainly going to be another wave in Spring
I think the idea will probably be maybe at that is going to be a mixed one but let’s say if we are overflown floated by insanely good to female Founders we might need to run another female program who knows.
[31:28] But I think the idea is to not to see that if you could run a normal program for you know diverse.
Survival you know and I think now we have a greater chance to do do do know to crack the numbers and that’s having you know
it’s non-existent percentage of females but the I think the best way to find out you know how is the program how is it working is probably to reach out to the people who have done the program already
and I’m sure if there’s a female Founders Day wandering and
I mean all these ladies are there amazing you can you can reach out to them and show to LinkedIn and ask them of their opinion but you can always send us you know emailed a school for information but I would say the best thing is always due to go to the website
WWE you have it that downstairs exit frankly.com and the film defecation form and then you will be in a contacted in due course wonder when the next way we start.
[32:20] Great thank you very much that was everything I want to know one more question can you can you say goodbye in Finnish.
[32:31] Nega mean.
[32:36] Thank you very much bye bye thanks bye.
[32:44] Music.
