An Interview with Eric Weiner

This quarter, The Stoic Fellowship has interviewed Eric Weiner — an author, speaker, and former correspondent for NPR. He calls himself a ‘philosophical traveler’ and likes to explore the intersection of places and ideas. His latest book is The Socrates Express. It starts with Marcus Aurelius and Stoicism, and then explores the life lessons of other great philosophers, such as Socrates, Rousseau, and Thoreau. The book’s contents would offer any Stoa organizer lots of great material to start discussions in their meetups.

SD = StoicDan (Organizer of The Orlando Stoics)

EW = Eric Weiner

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SD: Your introduction to “The Socrates Express” has some great advice for us in the Information Age. It reminds us that “wisdom untangles the facts” and also “wisdom is something you do”. In other words, we can act upon wisdom, but not raw data. What practical wisdom from Stoicism has impacted your life?

EW: First of all, I’m glad my thought on the “wisdom drought” of the Information Age resonated with you. We often confuse information and wisdom when, in fact, they have little in common. If anything, an excess of information (what a friend calls “data smog”) can obscure our vision and make wisdom less likely. This is where, I think, philosophy enters the picture. It helps us make sense of all that information and knowledge — and, as you say, put it to good use. Philosophy is not only contemplation. It is also about action. Wise action.

This is where Stoicism excels. If you look at the greats Stoics — Zeno, Aurelius, Seneca, and others — -they were all men of action. They were thinkers and doers. For me, this came as something of a revelation — the notion of what I call the “philosopher as action hero.”

One Stoic precept that I keep coming back to, especially this past year, is the notion of control. Specifically, how we have very little control over external events, much less than we think, but much control over our internal reaction to those events.

SD: How did you find Stoicism? Was it through studying another philosophy or perhaps reading a certain author?

EW: It wasn’t one thing that brought me to Stoicism but, rather a steady trail of bread crumbs. Years ago, while researching my first book, The Geography of Bliss, I met a philosopher/therapist named Tim LeBon. He uses philosophy to help his clients navigate life’s choppier waters, and in particular Stoicism. (Stoicism, of course, was born of a shipwreck, when Zeno ran into trouble while sailing.) This makes sense. Stoicism, of course, is the inspiration behind Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Why not return to the original source?

Then I caught wind of a “Stoicon” convention in New York. On something of a lark, I signed up, I was impressed. Here was a group of people devoted to one purpose: wisdom. You don’t see that every day, at least not outside of a religious setting. That is when I decided to include a chapter on Stoicism in my book, The Socrates Express.

SD: You compare Marcus Aurelius — and the large Roman Empire that he governed — to the difficulty that you have in governing your work desk, with magazines and knick-knacks. I thought this was humorous. You also describe mornings as a cloudy and emotional time of day. Why do you think Marcus and his writings are timeless and can help us in these aspects of our lives?

EW: It’s funny because it’s true! I am not master of my desk. Seriously, what impresses me about Marcus Aurelius is not the fact that he was an emperor and a philosopher, but that he was so very human. In Meditations, he lays out all his insecurities, doubts, fears and peccadillos. For a book that was written, some 2,000 years ago, it feels incredibly contemporary.

One of the greatest lessons Marcus has to teach us, I think, is to embrace our humanity, to admit to our failings, rather than papering them over. I mean, if a Roman emperor still has trouble getting out of bed in the morning, then maybe I shouldn’t castigate myself for hitting the snooze button.

SD: In the book, you imagine a scene where Marcus Aurelius is in his tent along the River Danube. It’s a cold day, and the battle is going badly and troops have low morale. In addition, Marcus had other troubles to deal with in life. Why do you think Marcus was drawn to philosophy?

EW: I think Marcus was drawn to philosophy for the same reasons so many of us are: life was a problem for him, and he was looking for answers. Answers no necessarily to “what” or “why” questions but to “how” questions. How to be a “good” person; how to cope with adversity; how endure the unendurable. The only difference between Marcus and us (well, besides the fact that he was a Roman emperor) is that in his day philosophy was considered a rich source of practical wisdom, while today it is, sadly, considered by many (not all) a colossal waste of time.

SD: In another chapter, you present a revealing quote by Jacob Needleman: “Our culture has generally tended to solve its problems without experiencing its questions.” Then you proceed to interview Needleman, which reveals how Socrates altered the way we ask questions and why the answers are valuable. Do you think the Modern Stoicism movement is helping us ask meaningful questions to each other and to build civil discourse?

EW: I do. What I like about Stoicism is that it addresses both theoretical and practical questions. Unlike some philosophies, Stoicism is very much grounded in the “real world.” By that, I mean healthy civic discourse and civic duty matter a lot to the Stoics. There’s a reason Zeno founded the school under the Stoa, smack in the middle of the bustling agora of ancient Athens. The Stoics believe we are social and political (in the best sense of the word) beings. Stoicism is both an “I” philosophy and a “we” philosophy, if you know what I mean. So, yes, I do think the Modern Stoicism movement does help us ask meaningful questions and, by doing so, enlivens our civic discourse.

SD: You described how people felt terror in the early days of trains. In a letter dated August 22, 1837, the famous French poet Victor Hugo said of a train ride: “The flowers by the side of the road are no longer flowers but flecks, or rather streaks, of red or white…” This reminded me how Stoicism has taught me to value my time and focus better on the fulfilling things in life. How do you focus in your busy schedule?

EW: It’s a struggle, to be honest. I constantly have to triage my activities and ask: what is truly important and what is not? Am I about to do something, anything, because it will, in some small way, make the world a better place, or is it merely to scratch an ego itch? As the great historian Will Durant once said, “I want know that the big things are big and the small things small, and before it’s too late.” I love that quote. I turn to it often when I’m flailing in a million different directions and ask myself: What matters here? What is big and what is small?

SD: Your observation on page 40 was, I think, important for the modern world. You observed that Rousseau (from the 1700s) enjoyed walking, despite that horse-drawn carriages were available. Today, we have all forms of transportation, and soon, driver-less taxis may be plentiful. How can we slow down and enjoy the solitude of walking again? For me, this connects to mindful living, but also allows a person to be a humble and rational thinker (as a practicing Stoic).

EW: You’re right. The pandemic has robbed us of much. There is (still) much we can’t do. We can walk, though, and thank goodness for that. Walking is an act of defiance, one of the few ways we can thumb our nose — and our feet — at the virus that has upended our lives.

Walking soothes and revives, encourages and inspires — and sometimes, walking changes the world. From Mahatma Gandhi’s Great Salt March in India to Martin Luther King, Jr’s 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, walking and protest have been joined at the hip.

Walking is democratic. Barring a disability, anyone can walk. The wealthy walker has no advantage over the impoverished one, nor does the powerful walker best the powerless. Freedom is walking’s essence. The freedom to depart and return when we wish, to meander. to, as Robert Louis Stevenson put it, “follow this way or that, as the freak takes you.”

Many a breakthrough has been stumbled upon while putting one foot in front of the other. While working on A Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens would walk fifteen or twenty miles through the back streets of London, turning over the plot in his mind, as the city slept. Beethoven found inspiration while ambling in the verdant Wienerwald outside Vienna.

Jean-Jacques Rousseau bested them all. He’d regularly walk 20 miles in a single day. “I can scarcely think when I remain still; my body must be in motion to make my mind active.” More recently, studies have confirmed Rousseau’s hunch. Our mind is at its most creative at three miles per hour, the speed of a moderately paced stroll.

SD: The chapter on Henry David Thoreau starts with a very engaging statement: “Some are born Thoreau, others achieve Thoreau. Most have Thoreau thrust upon them.” How did you conceive of this statement and how do you connect this to Modern Stoicism or American Transcendentalism?

EW: Well, it’s true. Back in ninth grade, I didn’t choose to read Thoreau. He was forced upon me. This is a problem. As the great Indian poet Tagore said, “The tastiest tidbit may not be relished when thrown at one’s head.” This why, I think, so many people are turned off by philosophy. It is thrown at their head. Reaching out to these thinkers voluntarily makes all the difference. When I reread Thoreau (not only Walden but his essays and journal entries too) I found a different Thoreau. I found a wise and accessible Thoreau — even, at times a funny Thoreau.

Thoreau read the Stoics, and was well acquainted with the philosophy. He was, in his own way, a Stoic. Like other Transcendentalists, he had faith in things unseen. He was a keen observer, and had no patience for the so-called “view from nowhere.” He embraced simplicity (for a while at least) and public duty. I’m thinking of the time, in 1848, he famously spent a night in jail, rather than pay a poll tax. A fervent abolitionist, Thoreau explained, “I cannot for an instant recognize . . . as my government that which is the slave’s government also.” In other words, he took a principled stand, even that meant he must suffer. That strike me as very Stoic!

DS: Thank you so much for this interview. I’ve truly enjoyed your book “The Socrates Express” and will recommend it to others. Do you have any upcoming articles or events that you can tell us about? We’d love to hear about them.

EW: You’re welcome! Thank you for the terrific questions. In addition to my books and public speaking, I also lead writing workshops. In fact, I will be leading two writing workshops later this year: one in the Himalayan kingdom of Bhutan and another, closer to home, in Arizona. Anyone who might be interested can find more information at my website: www.ericweinerbooks.com.