An Interview with Kevin Vost

The Stoic Fellowship is happy to offer this interview with Kevin Vost. He’s the author of the book “Memorize the Stoics!”, which is available for purchase on Amazon.

SD = StoicDan (Organizer of the Orlando Stoics)
KV = Kevin Vost

SD: Thanks for your time, Kevin! Help us learn from your Stoic life: how did you find Stoicism and what aspects keep you interested? This will help Stoa organizers around the world to keep members engaged in discussions.

KV: Thank you for the invitation, StoicDan! I found Stoicism in the early 1980s as a psychology undergraduate when I learned that founders of the early systems of cognitive psychotherapies Drs. Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis credited the Stoics in general, and Epictetus in particular, with the insight that we can greatly influence how we feel and behave by training ourselves to think properly about whatever difficulties or stressors we experience in life. What has kept me interested in Stoicism for 40 years now is not only its power for helping control negative emotions, but its call to us to grow in virtue to be nobler, more caring people, focused not only on our own tranquility and happiness but on benefiting others.

SD: You recently published a book “Memorize the Stoics!” I liked how you modernized the teachings of Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius. Your introduction starts with ideas like self-control (to overcome desires) and endurance (to overcome hardship). What are the major problems, in your opinion, that the modern world gives us and how can Stoicism help?

KV: Very good question. There were all kinds of temptations and life difficulties in the time of those Stoics two millennia ago that are still with us today, but the modern world has certainly added some powerful new ones as well.

In terms of challenges to self-control, through electronic media, we now have all kinds of temptations, titillations, and diversions available to us 24–7 that the ancient Stoics never had to face. It can be hard to focus on what is truly important, to be able to sit and calmly read for considerable lengths of time, and perhaps to leisurely spend time with, relax, and listen to relatives and friends, if we constantly feel the urge to check our phones, social media, or a universe of web sites. In this regard, I was greatly impacted in my early 40s (20 years ago), by a line in Seneca’s On the Shortness of Life that was translated like this in the Loeb edition: “The busy man is least busy with living.” In other words, as Socrates said, “The unexamined life is not worth living.” When we are constantly on the move with too little time to think and reflect, life speeds past us and we might regret someday that we did not slow down to consider what actions were truly most worthy of our time. In my own case, after reading that at a very busy time of life when I was working full-time, had a young family, and did part-time college teaching, I stopped teaching to reflect more and to read good philosophy like that of the Stoics and Aristotle. Within a year, I ended up writing the first or more than two dozen books. So, in general, I think the Stoics can help us slow down and focus on what is truly important in life.

In terms of facing up to difficulties, the lessons of the Stoics can help us calmly face all sorts of difficulties in modern life from a fender-bender on the road, to personal illness, to loss of a loved one. While each of us may or may not experience such difficulties at various time, I think one problem most of us can probably relate to is what seems to me to be increasing polarization regarding issues like politics, economic, religion, sexuality and more, with tendencies toward demonizing or trying to stifle the voices of people with opinions differing from one’s own. I think the Stoics can be very helpful here in helping us call to mind the humanity we all share in common, regardless of our specific beliefs. I think Marcus Aurelius is particularly helpful when he reminds us that people who disagree with us or might tend to annoy us in a variety of ways think and act the way they do because it makes sense to them within their perspective. If they are willing to reason with us, we might find common ground with them, and even if not, we will feel no need to hate or vilify them. In other words, I think Stoicism can help lead to a calmer, more truly tolerant world.

SD: Your book mentions Dr. Albert Ellis many times. Lately, we’ve been talking about him in the Monday night meetings of Orlando Stoics. How do you view his contributions to psychotherapy and how do you link it to Stoicism?

KV: In one semester as a psychology undergraduate, I first became immersed in cognitive psychotherapies writing a paper for an Abnormal Psych course on Aaron Beck’s cognitive therapy for depression and another for a Clinical Psych course on Albert Ellis’s Rational-Emotive Therapy. I read every book and article I could get my hands on about Ellis’s system (now called Rational-Emotive Behavior Therapy or REBT), back in the day before computer-assisted searches. I even tracked down amusing Rational-Emotive songs he wrote and sung to get clients to laugh about their irrational, self-upsetting tendencies. I was intrigued and amused by Ellis as a person too. Though I was a rather reserved person myself, I really admired his bluntness and sense of humor. I also thought his perspective on mental health made more sense than any other of the approaches I’d encountered. He wrote about how when working as a psychoanalyst, sitting behind people on a couch, taking notes on their mental meanderings, he felt he should turn them around, sit them up, and carry on rational conversation with them, which, of course, he would go on to do. He reasoned that if a person is disturbed today, by some even deep in their past, what that person tells him- or herself about that experience today is what is perpetuating their disturbance.

Ellis’s work was also personally very helpful to me. For one example, recent data shows about 77% of people report they have a fear of public speaking. When I was young my fear of public speaking was severe. Of a naturally ruddy complexion and shy temperament, I would blush scarlet red and feel my heart begin to pound as beads of sweat would form even at the thought of having to speak before others, usually in a class at school. Not meaning to be uncharitable, if a teacher assigned some kind of speech at the end of a course, I would wonder about the odds that he or she might get ill by the end of the term so I would be off the hook. Later, people who knew me well were astounded that I would go on to teach dozens of college courses and to give many dozens of public talks fearlessly without a written note. So how did this come to be?

Well, in my senior year of college, I was required to give a talk in front of one of my psychology classes. Fortunately, I’d been studying techniques of cognitive therapy that can help us overcome negative emotions, including exaggerated fears. One technique has been called “negative visualization” by modern psychologists and “premeditatio malorum” by the ancient Stoics. Here, you basically imagine the worst possible outcome of an upcoming situation you fear and train yourself to remain calm about it. Borrowing from the something I read in one of Ellis’s books, before I gave the talk I thought to myself something like this: “Suppose I get up there and turn red as a tomato, my voice falters, I crack a joke and nobody laughs, forget what I want to say next, accidentally spit on the people in the front row, and then look down to see that my shoes don’t match and my zipper is open. Well, I might well be the worst public speaker in the world, but I suppose somebody has to be — so it might as well be me! I still have to do this talk to get my grade, so full steam ahead anyway!”

There is a second technique I used as I actually began the talk. It too has a name in modern cognitive therapy, namely “shame-attacking exercises,” with roots in ancient Stoic philosophy. Modern psychologist Albert Ellis, treating patients in New York City, would advise people fearful of what others thought of them to go out and do things like walking a banana on a leash like a dog or standing backwards in a crowded elevator, so they would see that even if people did notice them and think them odd, it’s not a devastating thing. An ancient form of this method was used on Zeno of Citium, our founding Stoic, by his teacher Crates. Crates realized that Zeno was too shy and concerned with what others thought about him, so he had him join him on a jaunt around Athens while carrying a huge crock of lentil soup. Zeno tried to hide the crock with his cloak out of embarrassment when some people walked by, so Crates took his staff and smashed open the crock, spilling bean soup all over Zeno’s legs. When young Zeno ran off in shame, Crates called out, “Why run away, my little Phoenician…nothing terrible has befallen you.”

So here’s what I did to attack my own shame when I had to give that talk. I brought no banana or lentil soup, but I merely apologized in advance to the class if they could see me flush and sweat and hear my heart pounding within my chest as I gave the talk. In essence, I made my fear that people would notice the physical signs of my extreme nervousness come true, and then I got on with the talk with a lot less redness, sweat, and tachycardia than ever before. To this day, I can give talks without any excessive jitters.

I fondly recall one time in the late 1990s or early 2000s when I got a chance to meet Ellis. A co-worker working on a master’s in psychology told me one afternoon the Ellis was speaking at Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois (about 75 miles from our home in Springfield). By the time we got there the bad news was that no seats were left in the auditorium. The good news was that Ellis said he was willing to allow people to come sit by him on the edge of the low stage where he spoke, so my friend and I got to sit at the feet of the master. When I told my wife when we got home, she chuckled and asked if I’d kissed him.

Anyway, I later obtained master’s and doctoral degrees in general and in clinical psychology, and I continue to believe Ellis made profound contributions to psychotherapy. I am also thankful that he guided me and so many others to the philosophy of the Stoics.

SD: The impressive concept of this book is how it teaches using hand-drawn images, such as a room with furniture, doors, and other items. Each item is linked to one of the Stoic teachings, and together, they become a memory device. If you remember the image, then you can remember the Stoic teachings! I applaud how much work you put into creating these images! How are readers reacting to them?

KV: Thanks for the kind words. The response, so far, has been pretty good. All ratings on Amazon so far have been four or five stars. An earlier version of the method was used in a book I wrote in 2006 called Memorize the Faith! about catechetical information and it remains my best seller to date. I thought about a Memorize Epictetus! book back in 2006, but got busy with others projects and did three other memory books for Catholic publishers before I determined that the time had come to apply the memory methods to Stoic materials. The goal is for the method to be practically helpful, and hopefully an entertaining challenge along the way. The memory method itself goes back to Simonides of Ceos, who lived before the founding of Stoicism and it came down to the west primarily through Marcus Tullius Cicero of the first century BC. Interestingly, Cicero is one of our best outside sources for the teachings of Stoicism as well. Also, for this book my daughter-in-law did the drawings, and it was dedicated to my brother and grandsons, so it made it especially meaningful for our family. It was also a treat for me that we crafted one illustrated “memory room” as a stylized version of the original Stoa Poikile itself. I happened to have seen your video of a tour of the site of the real original Stoa and directed readers to it on YouTube!

SD: About half way in the book, you mention Epictetus and the Olympic Games (page 100). You emphasize how Epictetus wanted us to use philosophy in a practical way, in other words, to directly improve our lives (not just think about improving our lives!). Here, you write “We have studied and memorized so many important Stoic lessons by now, and the worst time to begin

to put them into practice is tomorrow…” How does your book help us stop procrastinating?

KV: Well, I hope it can. The idea draws largely from Epictetus’ brief Handbook in which he advises us to “remember” or “call to mind” various Stoic principles about a dozen times. Hopefully, if we can hold on to at least some of the key ideas of the 53 lessons of the Handbook, the first 50 of Seneca’s Letters, and what I called a “magnificent seven” maxims of Marcus Aurelius, when faced with temptations or difficulties in life, we can call forth what we’ve memorized and try to put it into practice right then. When I was young, I recall reading a motivational writer, I believe it was W. Clement Stone, who advised that when we realize we need to do something we should say to ourselves “Do it now!” and always immediately follow through on what we told ourselves to do! Here is my summary of Epictetus’ 10th Handbook chapter that I think encapsulates this idea: “Whenever something happens to you, remember to ask yourself what powers you have for dealing with it. If you see a beautiful body, call forth your self-control. If hardship comes your way, get out your endurance. If you are insulted, find your patience. If you train yourself in this every day, appearances will not carry you away.” We might add, “and do it now!”

SD: Your book also develops a series of maxims by Marcus Aurelius, and you refer to the scholarly work “The Inner Citadel” by Pierre Hadot. This book has helped many adults understand the value of Marcus and his teachings. However, in reaching young people with Stoicism, I’ve found they identify with Marcus specifically. Have you seen this trend? What do you think fascinates young people with Marcus?

KV: I have found this trend with people of all ages, including my younger, little brother (who just turned 60). I think Aurelius appeals to the young and to adults because by his life he so directly counters the common stereotype that people who love philosophy are impractical people with their head in the clouds (as Aristophanes so amusingly parodied millennia ago). Who could possibly have to face more real-world practical challenges than the leader of the greatest empire on earth at that time? Emperor Aurelius also provides a beautiful exception to the idea that power necessarily corrupts people’s morals. It is amazing to read the humble reflections of the most powerful man in the world, leader of Rome’s great legions, chiding himself not to become puffed up and act like a “Caesar,” though his awe-inspiring official title was indeed “Imperator Caesar Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus.” He exudes gratitude to others and reminds himself not to get upset if someone accidentally injures him when sparring, and not to get upset with the most annoying, nosey, unneighborly of people, by reminding himself that their actions make sense to them, and that we are here on earth to cooperate with one another. I think his nobility, integrity, and humility really appeal to young people inspired with idealism to become the best people they can become. This I think explains the appeal of recent of books about Aurelius like Ryan Holiday’s The Boy Who Would be King and Donald Robertson’s graphic novel Verissimus.

SD: Which Stoic annual conferences do you enjoy and what topics are they advancing?

KV: I spoke at my first live Stoic conference at Stoicon X Milwaukee in 2019, (it’s up on YouTube) not long before the pandemic hit. Since then, I’ve made virtual contributions to Stoicons, most notably on a panel for the big international Stoicon in 2021 and again on a panel of authors in 2022. I really enjoy these. I hope more live events will be forthcoming, and I find great value in the virtual events too. I try to watch them all day if possible. It is amazing to see how Stoic ideas are helping people in so many ways today and I particularly enjoy hearing people’s personal stories. It seems like a recurring theme in recent years is how Stoicism is focused not only upon one’s self, but upon others around us, all citizens of the world, and upon the cosmos itself.

SD: Thanks so much for your time today. I’ve saved the difficult question for last(!). When your book reviewed the teachings of Marcus Aurelius, you list the major themes in his book “Meditations” (page 177). One theme is “Rising to the Work of a Human Being.” In the last few years, we’ve seen people struggle with careers and finding purpose in life, while at the same time, also struggling with the pandemic and its stresses. So, my final question is: how can people break-free from the hindrances of modern life and find purpose using Stoicism?

KV: This is a particularly interesting question to me, since I officially “retired” from 32 years of full-time work in the disability evaluation field back in 2016, years before the pandemic. Now, my own “work as a human being” mostly involves writing books and articles, which I can do on my own time schedule. I’ve seen how the pandemic has affected the work habits and situations of family members and friends in a variety of ways, from those who no longer work, to many who now work remotely from home, at least a good portion of the time. Regardless of one’s employment situation, I do believe Stoic principles can help virtually every person rise to their “work,” even if it involves not wage-earning, but proper management of their household, property, and care for family, friends, and community. Aurelius writes nobly about performing our duties to our fellow person, and Epictetus writes again and again about performing our proper duties in life. Of course, Aurelius sat at the top of the pyramid in terms of employment. Nobody was his boss! And yet, what stresses he must have encountered.

Right before my Stoicon in Milwaukee in 2019, I’d been invited to give a talk at the national conference of Catholic Medical Association in Nashville, Tennessee. The theme that year was “medical burnout,” a growing problem among doctors and health-care professional at the time — months before we ever heard of COVID-19. It occurred to me that if anyone should have been stressed with job burnout it would be Marcus Aurelius, and indeed, in one part of my talk, I shared some of Aurelius’ lessons on coping with stress, particularly his statements at the start of Meditations, book 2, about how to talk to oneself first thing in the morning to prepare for the stresses of the upcoming day.

We can also glean plenty of insights on work from Epictetus, even in the brief Handbook. He essentially stresses the importance of giving our best to whatever work we do and not to be obsessed with obtaining higher positions that may not match our true abilities.

Seneca’s writings, several of his Letters, and his essay On Leisure might be particularly helpful for people who have retired or are not employed, perhaps due to disability, giving guidance on how to make the most of life and contribute the most to others.

Thanks again for giving me a chance to share in a few ways the Stoics have been such a boon to me for so many years. All the best to any who might read this.