Transcript: The Reckoning with Gloria Allred
The transcript from Episode 75 of Strong Feelings — a podcast by Katel LeDu, and Sara Wachter-Boettcher.
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Transcript
[Full transcript coming soon!]
SWB Gloria Allred is a lawyer, activist, and advocate, who has dedicated her more than four decade legal career to civil rights and feminist issues. Her firm ‘Allred, Maroko & Goldberg’ has handled more women’s rights cases than any other private law firm in the nation, and President Obama called her “one of the best attorneys in the country.” This year, she’s being inducted into the National Women’s Hall of Fame. Gloria, welcome to Strong Feelings; it’s an honor to have you here!
Gloria Allred Well, thank you so much. And thank you for inviting me, Sara.
SWB I am just very glad you could make the time because you are doing a lot! So, you’re known for representing women who have accused very powerful men of assault or harassment–people like R. Kelly, Roy Moore, Jeffrey Epstein, Donald Trump. Maybe most famously, you’ve represented dozens of Bill Cosby’s accusers. So, I’m curious–when did you realize that this was something you needed to devote your life’s work to? What led you here?
GA Well, like most women, I’m a feminist because of my own life experience, because I never had a class in women’s studies in any level of higher education or less than higher education. So, because I’m a woman and no woman is spared from life’s challenges because we are women, I felt that when I entered the practice of law 43 years ago, that I had a duty to pass it on and help women to have access to the justice system, to educate them about their rights, and to help them to vindicate their rights in a court of law. So, that’s what I’ve been doing. We are the leading women’s rights law firm–private law firm–in the United States and have been for 43 years. We have represented rape victims, sexual assault victims, sexual abuse victims, child sexual abuse victims, women who have been discriminated against on the job because of their gender, because of their pregnancy. We have represented all kinds of victims of gender violence, economic discrimination, reproductive rights discrimination, women who essentially are victims of injustice of all types. And we fight what we call David versus Goliath battle or Davida versus Goliath battles against the rich, the powerful, the famous. We want to equalize the power, we want justice for women, we want the truth, we want accountability, and that’s what we seek–to fight to win–and I am every day inspired by the courage of my clients who want to fight that good fight.
SWB Yeah, so speaking of the powerful, you’ve been doing this for a while, but do you remember the first time you found yourself representing a client against a powerful man and what that was like?
GA Uh, now I don’t remember the first time, [laughs & SWB laughs] but there have definitely been thousands of times, and each and every day, that’s what I’m doing. We’re there to equalize the power. And women have become empowered and this is the age of empowerment of women, it is the reckoning. So, I’m not there to make friends with powerful men, I’m there to seek justice for women and for the victims. So, I do think that when these predators get a letter from me, which often goes to their attorney, and then they hear about it from their attorney, they’re generally taking it very seriously because I don’t threaten anybody, but just the fact that I exist and am breathing and they got a letter from me [laughs] about someone that this person has hurt is generally something that is taken very seriously and they want to see if this matter can be resolved.
SWB Yeah, it’s like your list is the one list of powerful men that none of these guys want to be on, huh? [laughs]
GA Nobody wants to be on it. But it’s so interesting because so many women have lived in fear. Fear has paralyzed them and kept them subordinated. Fear of what if they did take action against a powerful man? Some of them fear “okay, he might physically retaliate against me, he may damage my reputation, I may lose my job, I may”–this or that. All kinds of fears! And I can’t say that none of those fears are unjustified, but we can often protect against some of the fears from happening. And we can talk about the benefits versus the risks. And then it’s for our clients to decide. Do the benefits of taking some sort of action outweigh the risks? They can make that informed decision themselves and they do. And we want them to be rewarded, if it is at all possible to do so, for becoming empowered and seeking justice. So, there are many ways to make these men who have committed wrongs against women–sometimes they amount to crimes, sometimes they don’t, but they are wrongs that hurt women. And we have ways that we think they can be made accountable, and we discuss those ways with our clients on a confidential basis. Because all consultations with us are confidential because people seeking legal advice from an attorney have a right to confidentiality–it can’t go anywhere. They’re voluntary–that’s the choice of our clients. If they want to protect their privacy or if they want to try to resolve their case with an out of court settlement. Then we’re going to do what our client decides is in her best interest.
SWB It’s interesting you mention those confidential settlements because I know that’s a topic that has led to some criticism because there are people who think that that’s problematic to encourage women to stay silent or who have pushed back against that. And I’ve seen some of that criticism and I’m curious how you look at it because it seems like you’re very unbothered by the idea of confidential settlements, you see them as part and parcel of the work.
GA In the 43 years we’ve been practicing law, we’ve seen represented thousands of victims of rape and sexual assault and sexual harassment. Women do not choose to be sexually assaulted or raped and when that occurs, their choice to be free of sexual violence is taken away from them by the sexual predator. We believe the victim should, at the very least, have choices when it comes to asserting their legal rights against the person or company that victimized them and we provide victims with legal choices, which include filing a lawsuit or the possibility of entering into a settlement, which avoids their having to file a lawsuit and litigating their case publicly for many years. And often lawsuits only increase the suffering of victims. So, many victims choose to protect their privacy; they want to enter into a confidential settlement to avoid having to file a public lawsuit. And, often, defendants will refuse to settle unless it is confidential. So, I always present my clients with all the benefits and risks of each of their legal options, so that they can make an important decision and choice as to what they believe is in their best interest. We do not tell our clients what to do; they decide. And we think the victim should have the right to choose whether or not they wish to enter into a voluntary confidential settlement. And no one, including the press and including politicians, should take that right and that choice away from victims. We do understand that the press wants to know everything and they’re not in favor of privacy, but there are many people in this country that do want privacy; they don’t want their mother, sister, family-member, workplace to know that they have been sexually harassed or raped. I support my clients if they decide they want a confidential settlement and that’s why I say the press should not be able to take away that right. They want to blame the lawyer who supports her client in a confidential settlement–which is voluntary, the client is not forced to do that, it’s up to her–they want to blame the lawyer, but the lawyer–that’s myself–I’m an advocate. I have a duty to represent and support my client; that’s what I will do. Many people try to take away the choice from women of whether they’re going to have an abortion because they’re against women having that choice! Okay? I support a woman’s choice to have an abortion or not have an abortion. I support a woman’s choice to go in and have a confidential settlement or not have a confidential settlement. And I refuse to let anyone take that choice away from my clients, who are victims; they have suffered enough.
SWB I really appreciate you talking through that because I think it’s very easy for people to, in the name of justice and in the name of outing bad men, to sort of accept women’s retraumatization as collateral damage. And I wanted to come back to something you mentioned earlier. Earlier you mentioned we’re in this moment of reckoning, which definitely we can see that all around us–in the names that I mentioned at the top of the show too. And there’s this moment of women’s voices maybe being raised up more, women feeling empowered to speak up. And it makes me wonder–you’re one of the few people who has been doing this kind of work so specifically for so long. And I’m curious–from your perspective, over these last four decades, what has changed and what hasn’t changed? Where do you feel like we are making a lot of progress and where do you feel like maybe you’re still fighting for the same damn thing? [GA laughs]
GA Well, under the heading of “fighting for the same damn thing,” I love the sign that I saw an older woman carrying at one of the women’s marches that said, “I’ve been holding this same damn sign for fifty years and my arms are getting tired.” [SWB laughs] The sign said, “equal rights for women.” It’s true that we have been fighting this fight for a long time. Remember that the suffragists, who are my sheroes, first demanded the right to vote for women in 1848 in Seneca Falls, New York, where I’ll be Friday night for the reception honoring those of us who are going to be inducted on Saturday to the National Women’s Hall of Fame. And the point is it was in Seneca Falls, New York where women first demanded the right to vote in 1848. It took 72 years to win the right to vote! The addition of the 19th Amendment suffrage to the United States Constitution. So, that’s where it began, and I’m sure they were getting tired along the way too! [SWB laughs] But, thank god, they knew that it was a luxury to give up and be tired, and they kept persisting until they won it 72 years later. In 1923, Alice Paul argued that women should be afforded the right to have the equal rights amendment added to the United States Constitution because the right to vote for women is the only place women are mentioned in the US Constitution. So, we’ve been fighting since 1923. It’s now 2019 and we still do not enjoy the passage of the equal rights amendment to the United States Constitution. We’re still women, although we’re the majority second class citizens in the United States. So, it’s a luxury to be tired. I get up every day and I know what my duty is; it’s to fight for respect and equal rights for women. I’m going to continue to do that. And I don’t get tired; I’m inspired by the courage of women every day to fight the good fight! They have much more difficult challenges than I do in their daily lives. So, if they can do it, I’m going to be there to be supportive of them to do it.
SWB I think that’s really incredible that you say that you don’t get tired and you never shy away from that. How do you keep that energy up? Is it really just looking to those clients and that gives you the oompf you need to keep going?
GA Well, I know what’s at stake and what’s at stake is everything. Especially, we see that in the Trump administration more clearly now than ever. The cutbacks and the rollbacks and how women are disrespected and their choices restricted, especially reproductive choices. So, I understand that we each have a finite time on this earth, none of us know how much time, generally. But we do know this–we have a duty to leave this world a better place. So, I value every minute and I know what my duty is, I’m blessed to be able to be an attorney, given that my parents only had an eighth-grade education and we lived on a little row house in Philadelphia, never had a car, never had much economically. So, I know now that it’s my–and I have known this for all these more than four decades–that my duty is to improve the lives of women and help empower them. When women are empowered, there’s just no end to what they can do to improve their own lives and the lives of their daughters. And you see that–I don’t know if you’ve seen my Netflix documentary “Seeing Allred” that is streaming on Netflix–
SWB I have.
GA –and you see many of the brave women who alleged that they were victims of sometimes rapes, sometimes sexual assaults, sometimes drugging and sexual assault, and more–you see them having the courage to fight. So, yes, it’s not an easy battle. It never was for the suffragists. It’s not for me, it’s not for any woman or her daughter out there–an easy battle–but there is a war on women, it’s real. And we have to keep fighting the good fight. And we have to resist, and we have to persist, and we have to insist, and we have to elect those who are willing to share our values, and fight for our values, and fight for our aspirations, and fight for our daughters. And men have a stake in this battle too. We have to improve also the image and the status of women and the condition of women–I know you’re doing that through your podcast and that’s also important. Each thread in this tapestry makes this tapestry whole. And this is what we have to do. We can each do it, you don’t have to be a lawyer to do it. Rosa Parks wasn’t a lawyer, but she decided she was not sitting in the back of the bus and she became the change she wished to see in the world. And each one of your listeners to this podcast can also be the change they wish to see in this world. Each one can speak truth to power, each one can resist and persist and insist and elect. And that’s what I encourage everyone to do because everybody can make a difference. Somebody sent me a birthday card a while back that said, “act as though everything you do can make a difference because it does,” and that’s very true.
SWB I love that so much. And I love that you mention growing up in Philadelphia. We record here in Philly, I live in Philly. And you mentioned coming from a very working-class family here and you’ve made your way from a southwest Philadelphia row house to becoming probably the most famous lawyer in the United States. I mean, not a lot of lawyers have a Netflix documentary dedicated just to them. So, I’m curious if you can share a little bit of that story because I think a lot of our listeners probably haven’t seen the documentary. How did you go from southwest Philly to where you are now?
GA Of course, in southwest Philly, I had the honor of being able to be accepted to the Philadelphia High School for Girls. And I’m a graduate of Girls High. And that was an exceptional time in my life and it really was important for me to obtain that Girls High education, which gave me confidence in myself that I hadn’t had previously. And then from there, because I was a Girls High graduate, I was able to be accepted at the University of Pennsylvania and I graduated from there with Honors in English. From there, I commuted to New York to earn a masters degree and I also taught at Benjamin Franklin High School in Philadelphia. And I was a substitute teacher elsewhere as well. So, I learned quite a bit from my teaching experience and enjoyed it very much. And then I moved to California–I was about 25 years old, something like that, with a five-year-old child, about a hundred dollars, and not a lot of dreams, not knowing where I was going when I got off the plane in Los Angeles, but I thought that I had no place to go but up. So, I became a teacher there eventually. And I had been an Assistant Buyer in Philadelphia as well at Gumble Brothers department store. So, I ended up being a labor organizer for the Los Angeles Teachers Association in Los Angeles, which ultimately became the union. And I ended up going to law school, where I met my wonderful partners who are still my partners today after 43 years of law practice. Nathan Goldberg and Michael Moroka. And, of course, we’ve had other partners and associates. And we love fighting for justice, and that’s what we do! So, that’s the story. And, you know, I faced a lot of life challenges–so many people listening to this show have. Some they’ve shared with other people, some they’ve never shared with anyone. But all I can tell you is it’s been a journey, it still is, and I just love doing what I do and feel very blessed to be able to do it.
SWB I think a lot of your clients would also say they feel very blessed to have you able to advocate for them.
GA Thank you.
SWB And I want to go back to some of that too because I know you’re known not just for representing clients when it comes to their civil cases or going to court with them, but also for making a lot of their cases very public. So, a lot of things that you see a lot of is the TV appearances, the press conferences, making sure everyone knows about the case when, of course, the client wants that. And I know you’ve gotten some pushback from folks who think seeking that kind of publicity is somehow wrong or inappropriate, and you seem very unbothered by that. You seem very clear on why it is you want to get publicity for these cases and I’m curious if you can talk about why that is.
GA Yeah. We don’t consider it publicity for the cases, we consider it coverage of issues of public interest and importance. And it’s really up to the client, as well as me, as to whether we think it will help to accomplish the client’s goal or whether it will hurt the client’s goals. I agree there are many people who wish women would just suffer in silence and not have a voice and not be heard. And when I began practicing law 43 years ago, generally women were not heard from. [laughs] Lawyers spoke for them and you never saw or heard from the client. I met Mitch McKenzie who did the wonderful television BBC series about the suffragists in England, UK. And she did a book, “Shoulder to Shoulder,” which I still have in my office. And she said, “Gloria, women’s history or herstory is still happening now; you need to help women have a voice. Because if they can not be heard about the injustices against them, nothing will change for them.” I took that very seriously. But we’re very strategic about this too. Most of our cases you’ll never hear of, it’s completely confidential. And our clients don’t want to be public. We don’t urge anyone to be public and we don’t say, “don’t be public.” We give them the benefits and risks, we talk it through, we think it through, and then we decide what we’re going to do. So, again, I do not put my finger in the air like some politicians do and say, “oh, is this going to help my reputation or is this going to hurt my reputation?” I’m a civil rights lawyer, I’m a women’s rights lawyer, and I do what is right for my client. And there are people who are against women’s rights and then later they come to me and they say, “Oh, we’re so sorry we criticized you, can you help us now with our legal problem?” [SWB laughs] And, of course, I say yes! If I can! Because I understand they just didn’t understand how bad it is for women or they had a political agenda that was different than mine. So, all I can say is nothing will stop me. If they’re calling me names, then I feel that I’ve won because it means they don’t have a good argument against what I’m saying. Because if they had a good argument, they would give it! If they don’t have a good argument, then they’ll call me by pejorative words for women’s genital areas. And that’s how I know I’ve won; they might as well just haul up the white flag of surrender because I know that they’ve lost the battle in the court of public opinion with me. And sometimes people who have criticized later say, “oh, I apologize, I just didn’t understand!” That’s fine. I don’t care. There was a famous saying by the suffragists that women who are not willing to risk the displeasure of men will never do anything meaningful for women’s rights. So, I just soldier on, we win millions for women, and we win accountability from sexual predators for our clients. So, my clients are happy and that’s what’s most important to me.
SWB You know, it makes me think of something I heard you say in the Netflix documentary. You said, “I decided I should be strong and I should show no fear.”
GA That’s right.
SWB Yeah! You talked about being that unyielding, confident person in the face of all of these clips from the 70s and 80s of men on talk shows belittling you, yelling at you. [laughs] And I’m really interested in and inspired by that–deciding to go out there and face that and be strong and not show fear. But I’m also curious if you feel like anything has changed in the world. Is there more space for different types of women’s voices to be able to be heard? Can women get out there and be successful making change without necessarily putting on that kind of persona?
GA Well, there are many ways to win change and you have to be strategic and think about the best way. Depending on what the facts are and what the law is and the risks you are willing to take and accept, and whether you think it’s a risk worth taking. Not every battle should be fought, but that’s a decision that each person has to make for herself. Which are the important ones? No one in their lives has the energy to fight every single battle presented to them in life! In some cases, you have to decide that a problem is not really a problem or if it is a problem, that it’s not worth fighting or dealing with. Maybe it’s an opportunity, not a problem. So, what I do often–a lot of what I do is teaching moments. So, everybody can help to win change, you just have to decide which battles you’re going to fight and how you’re going to fight them and what the outcome is that you’re seeking and how to get there.
SWB Do you feel like your voice has evolved in that over the years? From when you first started out and the way that you would speak to these issues and the way that you would speak truth to power? Has that evolved as the years have gone on?
GA I don’t know if I’ve evolved, I don’t think about it. I think about my clients and the best way and the clearest way to present what has happened to them and what their goal is. So, it’s about my client. They get approval of how it’s going to be presented, if it’s going to be presented, the way it’s going to be presented, and it’s really up to them. They think it out and they’re very thoughtful about it. And so, again, if we’re not getting any pushback, we probably haven’t said anything very important. [SWB laughs]
SWB That’s a good rule to live by!
GA It’s true!
SWB So, I do want to ask about one other thing that has been coming up in the news–that’s the new book, “She Said” by the two New York Times reporters who helped break the Weinstein story.
GA Mhmm.
SWB And I know that in the book, they reveal that your daughter, Lisa Bloom, who is also a civil rights attorney representing women in high profile cases in some similar ways, right? That she’d advised Harvey Weinstein on how to discredit accusers, how to plant stories, how to make people like Rose McGowan appear unglued…
GA Yeah, I don’t have any comment on that.
SWB Okay! That’s fine. [laughs]
GA She has commented herself.
SWB She has. I mean…
GA So that…I, I have no comment. And she’s commented from her law firm, which is a separate law firm.
SWB Yes, I understand. So, she’s apologized. It’s something that’s been super prominent this week and I wanted to touch on it, but I hear that. Okay! So, we’re going to wrap here in just a couple of minutes, I want to ask just a couple of closing things. So, we’ve talked a bit about how we’ve been at this for four decades, you’ve achieved many lifetime achievement awards, you’re being inducted in the women’s hall of fame–
GA The National Women’s Hall of Fame.
SWB The National Women’s Hall of Fame.
GA Yeah.
SWB And that would probably be enough for some people, but I know that you’ve also said that you plan to keep doing this, you’re going to be doing this in ten years, this is your life’s work, and you’re not slowing down. Is there anything that you would advise to people who are listening who want to be able to harness that kind of energy and that kind of passion for their work for the long haul?
GA I say fighting injustice is very good for the health! So, I suggest fighting injustice to others would be good for their health as well. Turn the rage and the anger that you feel about injustice to you that you’ve suffered, don’t try to tranquilize yourself out of it–don’t take drugs or alcohol to try to escape the pain you’re feeling–take that rage and anger, which is a source of energy for you, and move it outward into constructive action to win change. Find out your legal options from attorneys, get involved in the political realm, support those who run for office who share your values or you run for office yourself. Make your voice heard on the internet if you think that’s appropriate. All of us can be part of this change, so I find it is a source of energy for me to keep going and I just have a very positive view of life and of what can be accomplished if we all work together to accomplish it.
SWB Alright, well you heard it here: Gloria Allred says you should go out and run for office.
GA That’s an option! And some people who think, “oh, I can’t run for office, I’m not an attorney,” you don’t need to be an attorney. You may have more common sense than people who are attorneys [SWB laughs] if you’re not an attorney. And you have a life experience to bring to the job, so you really should seriously think of yourself as a candidate. We had more women running for election last time and more women than elected I think than ever before. So, you can go, any of you thinking of running for office, the National Women’s Political Caucus, NWPC, will be happy to help you for free and help you to understand how you can put together a campaign, think about fundraising, help represent yourself in the media, all kinds of useful information. So, get involved! We need you…now more than ever.
SWB And on that note, Gloria, thank you so much for being on the show and congratulations again on the National Women’s Hall of Fame induction.
GA Thank you so much, it’s been a pleasure. Keep up the good work.
Transcript by secondhandscribe.com.
Strong Feelings is a weekly podcast about work, friendship, and feminism. Because life’s too short to bottle things up. Hosted by Katel LeDu, and Sara Wachter-Boettcher. Produced by EDITAUDIO. Made with ❤ in Philadelphia.
