A Pleasant Irish Conversation
An Oral History
My Grandmother, mother, and I sit comfortably in the living room as classical music plays softly from the radio in the adjacent room. The dogs, Poppy and Melba, are cuddled up on the couch near Granny as we get started with the interview. It is a beautiful Saturday morning in Atlanta, cold and crisp with clear skies. We start the interview early as with the coming day there is much to do. Soft morning sunlight filters in though the large windows above the couch, and warmth radiates through the house.
To give some quick background, my mother and Granny have both been to Ireland before. Granny goes quite often, so my mother sometimes goes with her. I have sadly not been yet, but Granny says she will take me on the next trip!
Me: So to jump right in, did Thomas Harte meet his wife, Susan, before he came to New York or after?
Granny: After, because she was Susan Fitzpatrick when she got on that boat and came to New York. And he was already here. And they had two sons. Young Thomas who died in the influenza epidemic that killed all of them. In 1901 … they married in early 1901. Thomas Jr. was born in late 1901 and then John was born in 1903.
Me: Okay. And then do you know what their jobs were, Susan and Thomas, when they came to New York?
Granny: Susan kept a boarding house and Thomas was a train … I mean worked on a train shoveling coal into the engine or something like that.
Me: Okay I had found some documents saying he was a coal hoister -
Granny: That’s what that is.
Me: Okay. I was wondering because I found all this stuff on how he might have worked in the mines as a coal hoister, but I thought it was strange.
Granny: No, it seems to me that for a while he had some kind of retail store, but he lost it because he gave people credit.
Me: I also wanted to know about … when did John, your father, come to Atlanta?
Granny: He came to Atlanta in, I think it was 1937. Because I was born in 1939, and he was working in a company called J. D. Mcrary. And the year I was born, 1939, was the year that he open the John J Harte company, his own business. And then they bought the house on Lenox Rd in 1942. I was three years old. That big condominium complex called the St. James is down there on that two acres where my house stood.
Me: What was your childhood like growing up in Atlanta?
Granny: I had a wonderful privileged childhood. The creek that came under Lenox Rd. and went all the way around to the back of our lot used to have crayfish and tadpoles and frogs in it. And snakes. And I’d go down there and catch the little tadpoles and wait till they grew legs and then let them loose. Had a lot of fun playing in that creek. And then the original — wheres that picture?
[She gets up from her chair and walks over to a side table to pick up an old black and white picture in a wooden frame. The glass is cracked but the picture it encases is perfectly preserved.]
See the creek came under Lenox Rd. and then it went around here and then way around back. The original house had a garage that was in the back , this was the kitchen. That was the dining room. That was the living room. That was the screen porch. It was a small house with big rooms. Um… bed room, front hall, bed room, and then Daddy turned that garage around and bricked it in and put the breeze way in, closed the screen porch and added the game room. And then did all this landscaping.
Me: Cause he was an architect right?
Granny: Architect and engineer, yeah. I used to take my tricycle and ride it down those steps. Course one time I thumped over and cut a huge gash in my chin. I’ve still got the scar.
Mommy: You and Madalene. Both have gashes in your chins! [Everyone laughs.]
Granny: Yep! And this was the hillside on which Polly planted about ten thousand daffodils bulbs. It was just a wash in daffodils in the springtime. And she used to cut me big bouquets to take to my teacher at school.
Mommy: Where was your school?
Granny: R. L. Hope. It was up there near Piedmont and Peachtree. If you were coming south on Peachtree going towards Buckhead and you turned right on Piedmont Rd. There’s all that hotel and big stuff in there now. R. L. Hope School rights down in there.
Me: Do you know what education John got to become and engineer?
Granny: He went to …um… well all those Irish Catholics were initially educated by the Christian Brothers. And he went to Columbia University.
Mommy: Where’s Columbia?
Granny: New York City. And he was supervising the construction of a water treatment plant in Jamestown, North Carolina right outside of Highpoint about 1927 or something like that. And at that point my mother would walk from Grandmother’s house, down the road to take care of an old neighbor. And the story goes that Daddy would stop of offer her a ride,and she would toss those red curls at him and go, “Ugh, I ain’t getting in the car with any Yankee!” [Everyone laughs.] But I think finally the story goes on rainy day she did get in the car with him, and he drove her home. And my grandmother and all the family just adored him. Even if he was an Irish catholic from New York!
Mommy: Well, so what were they? Presbyterian or Methodist?
Granny: Good God no. They were Baptist and Methodist.
Mommy: Okay. But they were Scottish?
Granny: The Kivetts were originally from the Netherlands. They were originally Dutch. They came to this country, came down, settled in in a place called Rocky River, North Carolina which is near Jamestown and Highpoint and Greensboro. And the Vestals, my grandmother was Ester Jane Vestal, they were an old North Carolina family. But Ester Vestal married William Larkin Kivett, and he bought that farm in Highpoint on Kivett Dr., and farmed it for years. And he developed, he was a horticulturist, he developed a wilt-resistant cabbage. I’ve got a letterhead from that. And he got blown up by dynamite when my grandmother was about 40 years old. Lets see… Seline was married. Gladys, she had eight children. Polly, Hal, and Rich were still little when that happened. Gladys was at home. Seline was married. Bern as a child had gotten lock jaw and died of tetanus. And then Garland, one of them, was killed when the stunt blew up, and it blew my grandfather to smithereens. I remember Aunt Gladys when I was a child telling me, “And Susie Q I walked out of that house and I said I saw Papa’s head in a tree!” [Laughter.]
Me: Oh my goodness! . . . I was talking with Daddy and he said that when John’s parents died of the Spanish Influenza, he was raised by Catholic Nuns. Is that true?
Granny: He was raised by the Christian Brothers which educated young Catholic boys back then. Boys and girls did not go to school together. The nuns raised the girls, the Christian Brothers raised the boys.
Me: Oh okay, that makes sense.
Mommy: So did his brother die the same time his mother died? Or was he being raised by the Christian Brothers as well?
Granny: The older brother Thomas and Susan … Susan died in 1920. It was the 1918 influenza epidemic, and the three of them died in that, and Daddy had an aunt named Delia , Bridgett or Delia. I still go to the cemetery where she is buried outside of New York. And she took care of Daddy who was then a teenager.
Mommy: Now where do the Christian Brothers come in?
Granny: The Christian Brothers are like . . . they are Catholic men, priests who were educators.
Mommy: So they were educators. That’s were he went to school.
Granny: Yes.
Me: Can you tell me about the family we have over in Ireland?
Granny: Ya, those are all Fitzpatricks. There are a gillion Fitzpatricks in County Cavan, and it took me years to find them. But this lovely woman named Conceptum McGovern who worked for the genealogy society in County Cavan finally hooked me up with Shaun my cousin. His father is Pat Fitzpatrick. Pats now about 92 in very bad, failing health. In and out of the hospital all the time, kidney dialysis every other week or something like that. But Susan Fitzpatrick, my grandmother, would have been Pat’s aunt, but she died before he was born because she died in 1920 and he was born after that.
Mommy: And what was Shaun’s mother’s name?
Granny: Rose. Pat and Rose had Shaun, Jarrod, Porrick, and Oliver, and a daughter who died. And the four boys are still alive. Oliver is the only one who married. He married Adel, and they got Lily Rose, Eve, and Finn Oliver. Finn’s the little boy they finally had. Shaun lives up the road from his daddy’s house in County Cavan. Jarrod works in Dublin. Porrick lives wit his father down the road, and Oliver and Adel live in County Galway.
Me: Okay. When I was researching I found that Thomas Harte is from County Sligo right?
Granny: He’s from County Sligo, and when Davis went with me we finally located this woman who was a Harte from County Sligo, Margret. She’s a lawyer in Dublin, and we met her at the Sligo Southern Hotel. She took us around to where some of the Hartes were buried blah blah blahblahblah. I didn’t much like her. And then her husband led Davis and me. Davis can drive on that side of the road, I cannot. I wouldn’t dream of it.
Mommy: Its not fun. [Laughs.] I had to do it.
Granny: Oh my God. [Laughs.] Her husband led Davis and me back to the hotel in Dublin that’s right next door to the airport. I can’t remember the name of the hotel. He was nice. . . Margret Fieny is her name, and I really haven’t kept contact with her.
Me: Does Shaun have a job? What does he do?
Granny: Shaun does have a job. What does Shaun do?
Mommy: He works for . . . its like Purina, like a dog food company, a pet food company. But not pet, but for livestock. All kinds of food for livestock and that kind of thing.
Granny: Ya cause they have — on this small farm they have, they have cows or pigs or something like that.
Mommy: Yes, cause we saw the cows. Whose the sweet cousin we went to see, and she gave us the Irish whiskey? That has the dogs?
Granny: Oh that’s Antoinette Charadone.
Mommy: She has pigs which were over by the house that Pat was born in.
Granny: Oh yes. The Charadones live up on a ridge. And she fixed us that Irish whiskey.
Mommy: But Shaun works in the offices of the company.
Granny: And Jarrod, I think, does something with computers in Dublin. I can’t remember. And Porrick stays home and takes care of his dad, Pat, and the animals. And Oliver engraves, I think he works at a company that engraves tombstones or something like that, and Adel works in a restaurant. She manages a restaurant. Did we eat over there?
Mommy: I didn’t, no. I think you and Davey and Davis did.
Granny: Could be yes.
Mommy: Cause we didn’t go to Galway.
Granny: Yep. So Antoinette Charadone, shes some kind of Fitzpatrick. I mean all the Fitzpatricks are in County Cavan.
Mommy: Shes Shaun’s cousin, I believe.
Granny: Something like that, ya.
Me: Back to Thomas Harte. When he came to America, do you know what his financial status was?
Granny: Probably poor as a church mouse!
Me: Ya I was thinking so.[Laughs.] Do you know, well with John being an architect and engineer he was pretty well off —
Granny: He became well off.
Me: Yes, so he went from being poor to richer.
Granny: Growing up poor, but then his father, brother, and mother all died within a year or two of each other, 1918–1920. Although I think the brother maybe lived to be 19, 26, or something like that. Anyway, it was 1926 that Johnny had finished school and went to Jamestown, North Carolina to supervise this water treatment plant, and that’s where he met my mother.
Me: And what was Polly doing before she met John?
Granny: She was at home. She was walking down the street everyday to look after old Mrs. Wannick who was a neighbor of theirs that lived down the road.
Me: How old was she when she met John?
Granny: She was born in 1909. She was about 18. All the Kivett girls had gone to a school called Bowie’s Creek Academy that is now Campbell's College in Bowie’s Creek, North Carolina. It was a boarding school type thing. Z. T. Kivett was one of the founders of Bowie’s Creek Academy. Campbell’s College from 1887–1974.
[She picks up a near by book about the school and reads a few sentences from it.]
“January 5th 1887, 21 students showed up for the first day of school at Bowie’s Creek but five of the boys agreed to help finish building the school house.” Okay, “Trustees Campbell College, Willis Z. Kivett from Southern Pines, North Carolina and Z. T. Kivett from Bowie’s Creek, North Carolina.”
[We look back at the picture of Granny’s old house, and talk shortly about her grandmother’s house.]
Granny: There were trees by the drive way that went around the back of the house and came back this way. And those Dr. Van Fleet pink roses, Grandmother grew those. I mean she was a legendary gardener. And this right here — [She points back at the picture of her childhood home.] Those were store rooms off of those bedrooms, and you’d pull a door to open it. And Polly kept all her hats in and her winter clothes in hers, and I kept dolls and doll beds in mine.
Me: Can you tell me about your education growing up and the colleges you went to?
Granny: Okay. I went to R. L. Hope and Atlanta Public Schools until 6th grade, and then Daddy thought I needed to be in a private school. So then I went to the private school down there at Brookwood Hills, big motel there now, called Washington Seminary, and I went there. There was an another school called the North Avenue Presbyterian School down on Ponce de Leon that became the Westminster Schools, and it bought Washington Seminary, and the schools merged. And they moved to the Westminster campus which is now out on, way out on West Paces Ferry Rd. And so I was there freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years at Westminster. And then I went to Sweet Briar College which was then the most expensive girls’ college in the South. Went there for one year, but I was in love with your grandfather. And I had a big fight with my mother about coming home, so I came home and went to Emory for a year. And then we got married and blah blah blahblahblah. And then I went back to Emory and finished my undergraduate and got my first masters degree there. Taught for about five years, and then went to journalism school at the University of Georgia, got my masters in journalism. And the rest is history.
Me: What jobs have you had?
Granny: Well lets see. I worked as basically a bed pan emptier on the — Emory then had a twenty bed psychiatric unit that was across from where the clinic is now and I got a job there, and then I got promoted and got the assistant occupational therapist job. And I kept that until I went back to school, and then worked part time for a sociologist named Ky Eriksson. Then I taught. Then I went to Georgia and I worked for a man named Jim Foey as a teaching assistant in the graphics lab. That was part time. When I finished graduate school, I got a job as an editor of weekly business paper called the Georgia Commercial Post that was the predecessor of the Atlanta Business Chronicle. And then I went to the merchandise and apparel marks at ADAC director of public relations, and I was there until I went to the newspaper doing fashion. And I did fashion until I got transferred to business news. That’s where I stayed.
Me: How did you like journalism?
Granny: I loved it. I mean I worked for some absolutely shitty people down there, but the jobs themselves were wonderful.
Me: What was your favorite thing to write about? Fashion or business?
Granny: Business. Ya, I learned how to read balance sheets and do earnings reports, and during the Olympic games Dave McNaughton who was my editor and I were sitting up in the newsroom writing earning reports. He now lives on Tybee Island where Melissa and Tom used to live. Hurricane City! [Laughter.] You could not pay me to live there!
Me: So you have duel citizenship with Ireland right?
[Granny nods.]
Me: Why did you apply for that?
Granny: Because I could. Wanna see my Irish passport?
Me: I would!
[Granny gets up and exits the room. She shortly returns holding both her American and Irish passports.]
Granny: This was a pain in the butt to get. When I traveled to Ireland with my Irish passport the they wouldn’t let me into the country with it when I returned.
Me: Back into America?
Granny: Yes. I didn’t know I needed to have a US passport to get back in the country. But anyway, I did. My US passport had expired, so the man took mercy on me and let me in the country and said, “Ms. Harte you better renew this passport ASAP.” So I did. So this is a good passport now and this is the Irish passport. [She points to the passports laid in the side table near us.] But the Irish passports go through the male line. They discriminate against women.
Mommy: No. Really?
Granny: They used to, and I don’t think that’s changed. It means I had to prove that I was John J. Harte’s daughter and that he was the son of Thomas Harte.
Mommy: Okay, so it couldn’t have been Susan Fitzpatrick, it had to be through Thomas Harte.
Granny: They couldn’t have cared less about her.
Me: So do you feel a deep connection with Ireland?
Granny: Absolutely.
Me: Would you ever like to live there if you could?
Granny: We’ve talked about it, and an American, you know, duel citizenship blahblah, you know, I could do it,but the problem is that I love this house so much.
Me: I love this house too!
Granny: I would hate to leave this house. Give this house up.
Me: But you would love to be in Ireland?
Granny: If I didn’t have to give up this house?
Me: Yes, yes.
Granny: Hm, but they burn peat. They’ve got, Shaun’s got smaller stoves, but they burn peat in those stoves, and peat stinks. I mean it doesn’t stink, it just smells different.
Me: But you love visiting? You love the culture and the people?
Granny: Oh yes. I mean I have been grocery shopping in Ireland with Shaun.
Mommy: The food is wonderful.
Granny: Well Shaun cooks. Hes a good cook, so whatever he cooks is good. Its the English that are supposed to be such horrible cooks.
Me: Yeah! [Everyone laughs.] That’s what I hear. Did you guys go to any historical monuments in Ireland?
Granny: Well, he took us to a coal mine didn’t he?
Mommy: Oh yeah we did! That was pretty cool! Went to an Irish coal mine, and it wasn’t any better than it was for the men in West Virginia. Still like a really rough life.
Granny: And then there was a historical place we went to and it really offended me because it made light of the genocide that happened when the English basically tried to kill the Irish during the potato famine. This made very light of that, and it made me mad.
Mommy: A lot of the historical houses were owned by the British.
Granny: And taken away from the Irish.
Mommy: That’s right.
Granny: The British took Irish lands, and settled their own people on them. The English could be very cruel.
Me: Oh yes.
Mommy: Really any of the historical homes are like that. so while they are fascinating and historically beautiful, they were essentially taken from the Irish and they were exploited.
Granny: I remember when Daddy and Polly and I went to Europe and Ireland, that picture of Daddy up there [She points to an old photo of John Harte standing by a lakeside.] was taken by Lake Geneva. But the Shelbourne Hotel is the finest hotel in Ireland, and we stayed there. And when Kelly and I were going or something I looked it up and my God it was $500 a night per person. I mean it was fantastically expensive.
Mommy: But we stayed somewhere nice that you stayed at when you were a little girl with your parents.
Granny: We did. It used to be the Railroad Hotel. Sligo Southern Hotel, yes. It was right by the train station, and I stayed there, I guess with Davis, the last time I went.
Mommy: Ya, I love that hotel. It was nice. . . And we did not have enough Irish whiskey! Like I would have more of that, but I didn’t drink very much when we went over there. My friends like to go out for Irish whiskey in the winter.
Granny: Hot toddies?
Mommy: Hot toddies, ya.
Granny: Remember when Antoinette told us how to make a hot toddy? I have since forgotten, but Jamerson’s Irish whiskey is what you use.
Mommy: Yep! Liam enjoyed that!
Me: Well thank you so much for having this interview with me!
Granny: My pleasure!
How does your tradition-bearer’s story relate to your community in both the present and the past? How does it relate to you?
My grandmother grew up in Georgia, and so did I. The story of the hardships my family went through to give Granny and me this life made me realize that hard work will take you far in life. My great grandfather, John Harte, was orphaned early on in his life, but he didn’t let that stop him from moving forward with life. He got a good education and became an architect and engineer. He earned his place in this world and rose up to provide a wonderful life for Granny. This is a story that many people today can connect with as people work hard to overcome obstacles in their lives. I can now understand the struggle my family persevered through and apply it to my life. Hard work will lead to success and happiness.
How did your perception of community history change, from before the interview to now?
This interview changed how I thought about my family. While researching I was very focused on the facts, but through sitting down and talking with Granny, I was able to connect to the heart and soul of my family. I now realize that even though my ancestors were alive a long time ago, their decisions and actions have influenced my entire life. Small actions can have a great impact on the future, so it is important to look back and realize how history has been changed in even the smallest of ways. Everyone has an impact on this Earth, and it is worth learning more about.
How did this project inspire you to learn more about your family and community?
I have always had an interest in my family and the history behind it, but I never took the time to explore the deep history behind it all. This project gave me the perfect excuse to start doing just that. I have done research on Irish culture, but I never did research with my family as the main topic before. This project inspired me to take my previous knowledge I gained from prior research and apply it to my kin. It was an amazing journey, and I now know where one side of my family comes from and the history they were a part of.
What were some of the challenges you faced during this project? What could you do differently in your next oral history interview?
One challenge I faced was the question of what I was going to ask Granny during the interview. I had a general idea of what I wanted to ask and know about, but I never took the time to write down solid interview questions that flowed into one another properly.
One thing I would do differently is ask the questions in an order that makes sense. I was kind of jumping around in this interview, and if the questions had flowed better, I may have found out more about my family.
If the roles were reversed and you became the tradition-bearer, what stories would you like to tell?
The stories I would tell would be the ones that helped shape me into the person I am today. Experiences I had with my family and friends that had a great impact on my life are important to pass down, so that the next generations will remember who I was and who my family and friends were. Those experiences are valuable for families’ to cherish as they created the people we know today.
