Snehal Desai on respectability politics, inclusivity and South Asians in theatre

This interview was originally published in the June 15, 2018 issue of The Slant, a weekly e-mail newsletter featuring Asian American news, media and culture. Want more stories like this one? Subscribe for free.

This week, we interviewed Snehal Desai, the artistic director of East West Players, the U.S.’s first Asian American theatre organization. Desai previously directed the company’s productions of “The Who’s Tommy,” “A Nice Indian Boy,” and “U.S v. Bhagat Singh Thind.” He’s served as a literary fellow with London’s Royal Shakespeare Company and received his MFA at Yale University. East West Players is the the nation’s leading Asian American theatre group and has debuted hundreds of plays specializing in the Asian American experience.

We caught up with Snehal Desai over the phone.

Natalie Bui: I remember reading off of LA Weekly’s profile of you — not only do you have an amazing theatre background, but you have done a lot of notable performances specifically to your Indian American experience. Can you tell me a little bit more about your background in theatre and how you got into it?

Snehal Desai: One of the interesting things is that I, growing up in undergrad while I was at Emory, I was a poli sci major initially, and I landed into the theatre department and became a double major. One of the things I was finding, was running into, was hearing, “Oh, you were really great, but you were really young, so we’ll have to cast you as a kid, but then we have to cast Asian parents or Indian parents, and we don’t know if we have those actors or know folks.”

When I went to grad school, what happened was that I was confronted with the white Western canon again, even down to the artists that I studied. So I really struggled. It wasn’t necessarily always my experiences or stories being reflected or told, and I asked myself, “well, would my mom, brother, friends come and see this and enjoy it?”

So I felt really challenged. People started introducing me to other artists of color, like Black American theatre artists, but it told me if I’m not seeing what I want, then I should start developing my own work. And that’s what I did in grad school. I formed a South Asian theatre collective at Yale Theatre School and we produced our own piece called “Fresh off the Boeing.”

And it was stories of South Asian discovery and our identities, and that’s where I wrote a bunch. And I wrote all these monologues, and people were like, “they are really great, but now we don’t know any South Asian actors to perform them.” And that’s how it became my solo show.

It was funny, the Tony Awards was on this past Sunday, and John Leguizamo was on there. And he told on stage a similar story on how he took some acting classes. People told him he was a really bad actor, and people were like, “you’re not doing it.” But he ended up starting to write his own work and he wrote this piece called “Mambo Mouse,” which is winning Obie Awards. He was not only a solo artist, but a Latino artist on Broadway.

For us artists of color and in particular Asian American artists, so much of what we have to do is make our own opportunities, and that’s what brought me to LA. I was in NY for grad school, and I came to LA and I ran into Tim Dang, the former artistic director of East West Players, while I was on a fellowship for the Old Globe in San Diego. And I was telling him what it’s like to be in a large regional theatre and to be the only person of color on staff, and how people talk to you and treat you, and he told he had left East West.

What was funny was that there’s a number of Asian American companies throughout the country, and a number in New York, but East West has their own theatre, space, and visibility. I didn’t know there existed an Asian American company for 52 years! That was where I had my opportunity, and it so happened there was a national Asian American theatre conference happening at the same time in LA. Then there was a South Asian conference that year, and a whole new community of artists was exposed to me that I didn’t know existed.

Whereas in other places, the conversation starts at a different level, right? It wasn’t about “who are you, where do you come from,” you know, those typical conversations you get all the time.

NB: Okay, so many thoughts on that, thank you for that. One of the first thoughts I had was convincing your parents about getting into this role. Because I remember you talking about how so much of the work we do around the arts or around activism is really for our parents. But they might not get that the first time. I currently work at Asian Americans Advancing Justice-LA, and I don’t think they can explain to people what it is that I exactly do, but my work is very much for them. I find it interesting, we fall into these roles to pay homage to our parents, but it’s just a different translation, you know?

SD: [laughs] That’s such an astute observation. We grow up oftentimes — are you first generation, second generation? Did your parents immigrate here?

NB: My parents are immigrants from Vietnam, yes. So born and raised here, and very much doing this work like, “Uh, this is for you!”

SD: [laughs] Yeah, it’s the ultimate irony because growing up we were told that education is the key. They came here and gave us opportunity, and I often joke that the opportunity was to be a doctor or lawyer or engineer, right?

NB: Yep, seriously.

SD: Yeah, and it takes a lot to grasp, and I still don’t know if they fully grasp what I do. But to also understand how much of what we do is still for their approval —

NB: Oh my god, yes.

SD: And for their recognition. And every show, often times I’m directing, I’m wondering, “If my mom were here, what would she think, or how would she understand this?”

NB: That’s so beautiful that you frame it like that, thinking about how your parents would care about the show.

SD: Very much so. You probably do it as a writer. Because as artists, the more specific we can make something, the more universal it can become. And we always think about who we want our audience to be. And obviously I often think about how to engage our community, and what is the deeper dialogue we can have at East West, that large organizations or predominantly white organizations can’t have with their communities. And more specifically, yeah, I imagine my parents or my family going. [They’re] folks who don’t go to the theatre. And what are they going to think and experience, and how are they going to connect to this piece?

By doing that, it becomes acceptable.

NB: And you’re keeping your parents in mind as you do this. You brought up another very interesting part as well. You’ve done a lot of different theatre work in very different white spaces, and then you entered into a very Asian American-centric theatre space — how was that?

SD: You know, one of the things I talk a lot about is what I want East West Players to be. And that is — we don’t want to check any one box if you will. We don’t prioritize being an immigrant child over being gay over being Asian American. You shouldn’t have to separate parts of yourself or prioritize yourself here, or rank how you are.

What was nice — it was that East West Players felt like that welcoming inclusivity for my whole self in all of its different messiness. That was something I had not necessarily recognized, and what I saw was that I often presented different aspects of myself that I thought would be most welcomed. If the connection was being Asian, I would do that, or if the connection was child of immigrants, or being gay.

And what was beautiful about East West Players, there’s an understanding. That was wonderful and it was very freeing. And it was like “Oh! I can talk more in a way that’s much more specific!” It’s what I found, when I was in grad school, people were talking about finding a mentor and to find someone who looks like them. So I was all, “oh let me find another South Asian artistic director in the country,” and I had a really hard time.

I ended up moving to London to work for a South Asian company there. And it’s very different to work for a South Asian company in England than it is here. The population there is so large, so I felt like there was a different level of dialogue and discourse there. You don’t have to explain what curry is, and they can talk about other things than comparing Indians to food. There’s a longer history.

So yeah, what’s been interesting to me is what happens when people ask me, “what do I want to do next” or “where do I want to go.” I find it amazing for us to be in a place where diversity is kind of the base of everything that we do, that it’s a given, that I don’t have to fight for it here, in ways where everywhere else we have to fight for visibility and recognition and to be seen beyond our skin color.

NB: Right, and those are big battles themselves, so it’s nice to be able to fight those battles and fight for other ones. I remember reading about you wanting to build a more inclusive theatre. Given that you were saying at East West Players, the dialogue around diversity is very different and at a different level, what does building an inclusive theatre look like for East West Players?

SD: Building an inclusive theatre at East West Players means building a place where every part of us that makes us different is welcomed, lifted up, championed. And being a place where you don’t have to hide or feel ashamed of any part of us. And I think about how can we build a space in those ways and how can we do that outside of traditional models.

NB: To have your most full self in this space.

SD: Yes. Exactly. And in theatre, I always talk about this, but I hate the rules of the code, like “the lights will dim and you will sit passively in the dark.”

NB: Oh my god, yes! Like respectability politics!

SD: Yeah! Exactly!

NB: I’ve been thinking about respectability politics a lot lately. And in theatre, there are a lot of rules to follow in such a formal setting. I love that you’re exploring that.

SD: So how can we explore and disrupt that? Does that mean we actually leave the lights on during performance? Does it mean how we welcome folks to the stage? A lot of times before the show, I welcome folks and ask them “who drove the farthest,” “who walked here,” “who is the youngest of the audience,” “who has seen the show the most number of times,” and I ask them to turn to their neighbor to introduce themselves.

At a big level, that’s how community is made. That’s how we start to take down those barriers of isolation and take down the proprietary of this space, with these rules of how we have to be. For me as an artist, knowing an audience is there and having them there to engage with you in conversation makes it a dialogue. If I didn’t want that kind of feedback, then I would be making TV or film.

NB: You’re right — because you’re seeing their reaction in real time. So how do you cultivate that space, where people can become more comfortable with their fuller selves? It’s cool to hear you challenge those ways and essentially decolonize the space.

SD: Yes, exactly. It is decolonizing behaviors and practices. It’s to make inclusive spaces and ask, how did we get here? How did we get to this way of being? And asking whether it is a barrier.

I was in a meeting where we were talking about our space and that everyone is welcome here — and we hope that it is — so actors of color should apply. Well, have you invited them into your space? That’s the other part. If one hasn’t been traditionally welcome, than why should they come? What do you have to offer and how welcoming are you going to be and how comfortable are you going to make them?

And I think that’s a very Asian thing, right? Taking care of your guests.

NB: [laughs] That’s so true. I wanted to ask about something you mentioned earlier and I think it goes to the power and impact of theatre. You were saying if you weren’t going to really understand people’s reactions, then you would have done film.

SD: Yeah. All art forms have their strength and weaknesses. TV is in a very interesting era of content and production and breaking the mold, but it’s not a present, active dialogue between presenter and audience. That’s what I meant about theatre. It requires that people make it an experience — and no two performances are the same. Everything is one and done and it varies night to night and its impact varies from night to night depending on who is in the room. It varies for the artist involved, about what they are discovering, who they are reaching, and in what moment.

It’s the same with audience. For us, we did “Allegiance” with George Takei and last year we did “Next to Normal.” “Next to Normal” is about mental health and we don’t really talk about mental health in communities of color. We don’t talk about depression, suicide. And what was astonishing was that it was a cathartic experience. It was amazing how many families came back again and again to see the show. And how seeing that show allowed the conversation to happen. “These are things that I’ve been wanting to say to my dad, mom, and my cousin — but I haven’t. And what I was able to do was to bring this show to them, and I was able to have them see me in a different light, and have conversations in ways in which I was never able to have before.”

People ask me what I love about East West, and what I found unique was that a couple of years ago, when I directed my first show, “A Nice Indian Boy,” and that was about a gay Indian man who wanted to have a big Bollywood Wedding but was marrying a white guy.

NB: Oh! Double whammy.

SD: Yes — double whammy. What was astonishing was that we have previews for East West, we have four shows typically. And before the show was even done, people were going to see the show a second and third time. And I never experienced that at any theatre I’ve worked at before. And I constantly see that at East West.

When we tell a story and we do it well, our community will come back again and again, and it comes from wanting to support and champion these stories where you see yourself. But also just seeing it here, you ask, “will I see another South Asian story on stage again?”

NB: That’s powerful, and a unique experience to tell the story, so it removes that weight off of one’s self to do so individually. Are you seeing more South Asian representation in theatre? I’m curious about that.

SD: I would say for sure. We’re at a critical mass of artists and here at East West. There was initiative to produce one South Asian play a year for five years, to build visibility to community and artists and to build that artists. And that is something that I’ve seen continue as I take the helm. Something I also talk about is prejudice and racism between communities of color.

NB: Yes. Yes.

SD: And that is something we don’t talk about. Even in Asian Americans there’s a hierarchy of race, let alone talk about how Asian Americans treat other communities of color, like Latinos or African Americans. We recently did a play called “Yohen,” and it was revival of a play with Danny Glover. And it was about an interracial relationship between an African American man and a Japanese woman and because again, those relationships are out there, but we don’t talk about them, we don’t do a lot of intermingling. What can we do to create that dialogue?

But for South Asian artists, you see Kal Penn, you see Mindy Kaling, Aziz Ansari. And you see the visibility. But there are amazing writers, directors and they are going into the program, getting the training and honing their craft for sure.

NB: That’s awesome. You’re so right about [the divisions] within the Asian American community and the hierarchy within Asian American groups. At the Slant, we discuss, “what does South Asian representation and Southeast representation mean?” We have been exploring a lot about the term “Asian American” — on how all-encompassing it is and how it can lose folks as well. It’s challenging and has been a series of dialogues that continue to happen.

I’m curious about the challenges you face in promoting inclusive theatre at East West players — what makes it hard and difficult?

SD: There’s a couple of different challenges. One is that I don’t want our artists to be viewed as lesser or our work to be viewed as lesser. Just because our work is to give artists of color more visibility doesn’t mean that our work is of lesser quality or standard of excellence out there. That great artistry and social justice work aren’t mutually exclusive things. It’s one of the things I talk about.

NB: Do people view them as lesser when there is a social justice component tied to it?

SD: I would say yes because people tend to view it as didactic or preachy. You know what I mean? They think we have an agenda. It’s a colonial thing — that work that has a social justice aspiration tends to be viewed as not great art.

NB: I guess you’re right. I have been scared of coming off too strong or closing off members, but I hadn’t considered that before.

SD: That’s a part of it. And I think getting folks to not be pigeonholed by the race or ethnicity of what we do. The “Allegiance” play is about the Japanese American experience and George Takei’s life. I think it has relevance to the South Asian community, but our community tends to segregate themselves, so one of the challenges — like one of the plays we have now is “As We Babble On.” It won our playwriting competition, and the theme of that competition was “2042: See the Change.”

And everything, leading forward right now, I’m interested in commissioning [and] producing work that has cultural intersectionality at its core. Because where is there a piece of work where you and I are having conversation as ourselves on stage or on TV and film?

NB: Seriously.

SD: Right? It’s rare. What would you think if predominantly white institutions and even network programs that are doing things that are all-Asian, or all-Chinese, or all-Japanese, or all-Black? That’s not going to roll anymore because that’s not where we’re heading as a society. “As We Babble On” is about five artists of color, three of whom are [mixed race], of all backgrounds and ethnicities engaging with each other.

The common thing is a dialogue around class and being an artist and what those challenges are. That’s what I don’t see, and that’s what I want to promote, where because as you are doing work that’s culturally diverse and intersectional, it’s oftentimes hard to reach specific communities. Because they’ll be like, “well, who is Vietnamese in that?” But it’s like, “well, it’s all of us, and it’s all of our stories.” And that’s what’s really reflective of Los Angeles and New York today.

NB: You’re right — we’re not heading towards a segregated community, we’re becoming more integrated. To end this interview — what’s a question or topic that you don’t get asked enough and you want to explore more?

SD: One of the things that I would love to talk more — like you and I were talking about earlier — is about what our parents wanted us to be, how they moved here to give us opportunities. How important it is that we have visibility of communities that come in different ways, but it also comes from making sure that our stories are heard and made visible.

So that means we are going to have to have Asian American artists. And for me, I’m wondering how do we do that for social change. And it’s like, “oh, we’ll do it through policy. Or public health.” But for me, the other way is attaching a face, name, and a story to a cause. That’s the other way.

Right now we’re talking about the immigration policy, refugee policies in our countries, and how it separates kids from their families. It’s hard to grapple with statistics — but you know that image, that 3- or 4-year-old boy sitting in Syria after the bombing? And you are a very stone-hearted person if that didn’t make you want to take action. Because you cannot deny, with his face, his name, his story at that moment and how it can affect change. But I want to talk about how our communities support those artists to bring those change.

NB: So it’s not about how we bring about the different ways of change — the non-traditional ways and creative ways to affect change. But it’s more about how our communities can support those non-traditional ways to bring change.

SD: Yep.

Snehal Desai is a writer and actor, and the artistic director at East West Players — the country’s leading Asian American theatre group. He is a Soros Fellow, a London’s Royal Shakespeare Company Fellow, and a recipient of a Tanne Award. Desai has directed plays from The Old Globe in San Diego to the Old Vic in London, and countless others in New York City. Find East West Players on its website, Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.