Tan Kheng Hua talks parenting and being parented in Singapore (Transcript)
This interview was originally published in the September 21, 2018 issue of The Slant, a weekly newsletter featuring Asian American news, media and culture. Want more features like this? Subscribe today for free.
This is the transcript of the interview. See the highlights.
Tan Kheng Hua is an actress based in Singapore, widely known for her role as Kerry Chu in Crazy Rich Asians, though she’d cultivated a long career in Singapore, as obsessive-compulsive Margaret Phua Hwee Lian in the sitcom Phua Chu Kang Pte Ltd. Her work on the show earned her an Asian Television Award for Best Actress (Comedy), and she’s been thriving ever since, crossing over to the States in shows like Netflix’s Marco Polo.
We chatted over wine in Santa Monica and discussed Singapore, growing up in a multiracial society, and how bucketing everything and everyone under “diversity” just doesn’t do the concept justice.
I must admit, I wasn’t expecting to be so moved by Crazy Rich Asians, but the scenes you were in reminded me so much of my own mother. It made me very emotional.
First off, Natalie, can I ask where is your family from?
My family is from Vietnam.
Oh, I would have guessed Filipino.
I get that a lot!
And what is your parents’ story?
They immigrated here as refugees after the Vietnam War, were located to San Jose, and I think have built a great life for themselves there.
I think the immigrant story that I have realized needs to be told in a larger way. I, of course, when I accepted the role of Kerry in Crazy Rich Asians, it was from a character point of view, loved this character and completely identified with multiple entry points in terms of how resilient and hard working she is. Also a single mother of a daughter, but not only that! She successfully carved out a very, very close relationship with her daughter using values from her own homeland and transitioning those values into the new world that she is living in requires. I loved all those layers about Kerry.
It did not matter to me that she had in a total three and a half scenes! It doesn’t matter to me when it comes to work. Once I read those scenes I knew immediately that I loved this character.
There is that immigrant angle, but it was also the display of motherhood, which I knew there has been some conversation about the different ways Asian mothers are portrayed.
Even in the character, from Eleanor Young to Kerry Chu — we seem like polar opposites, but at the end of the day, we are bound by the same power of our children and wanting what we want best for our children, what we think is best for our children. I don’t judge her character at all. In fact, when I watch it I completely understand where Eleanor is coming from and I thought Michelle played it gorgeously.
The movie does capture how moms will do whatever it takes to take care of their kid, whatever way it is. I think your scene resonated with me. It was so refreshing to see a mom portrayed in a powerful, kind, playful, way — just like a friend. It reminded me of the ways I want to see Asian moms portrayed! You captured it so warmly, like I mentioned, it reminded me of my mom and made me want to text her right away.
The dialogue that has opened up about mothers is great. And it’s interesting because I have friends who are complete tiger moms. I also have moms who are doormats, whose kids completely walk all over them, and those stories need to be told too on how heartbreaking that is.
And then there’s Kerry Chu, who is doing something that seems to be working and that story should be heard as well. But I think representation from as many different entry points, as many as possible, is where my heart is. I don’t want to see just one type of mom — like only just showing just the good mom.
It’s funny, because I have the great privilege of having played a variety of moms. There are some details about the Asian mom, that I would like to talk about in this particular interview, and one of those details is about my own mom.
I’m really close to my mom, she’s 82. Still highly dynamic, very very energetic. Yet my mother and I hardly hug. She caned me with a cane when I was young. Same with my brothers. We were deathly afraid of the cane. But she is the best mom, I love her to death. She is the center of my family. My brothers and I are completely devoted to her. And everything that she’s done, she does with no guilt. She came from a particular generation, I mean everyone caned their children! It was normal, nothing to do with child abuse or violence.
At the same token, my mother champions me, protects me fiercely, and has great faith. And gives me the freedom for me to do with my life whatever I want. She is a great grandmother! So you see, she wasn’t educated at all. She did what Kerry Chu and Eleanor Young does, and that is doing everything you can within your own circumstances. She never read any books or read any articles that said “caning your children is child abuse, it will affect them psychology for the rest of their lives.”
It hasn’t affected me at all. When we did good, when we did bad, we were treated as such. I’m very good in the kitchen! A lot of it is because I grew up helping her in the kitchen. She is not academic at all, she’s not caught up on those behavior concepts. She gave me a knife when I was 5 or 6 years old! I was cutting stuff. You learn!
There’s a lot of dialogue around parent shaming — like just talking about how there’s only one right way to do it. Mothers are very complex creatures.
For me, it is so important in motherhood to distill and recognize for your own voice for your own child. So what worked for me and my child doesn’t work for many other mothers. The only difference is that, I have complete trust in myself. And my mother, who seemingly did very un-kosher things like cane me, or make me do housework, somehow in her parenting she helped me have faith in my voice because of her faith in me. And so when I brought up my own daughter, I trusted nobody but myself. I would do things like take her out of school whenever I felt like, “oh, you could do with an extra couple of days for a family holiday,” and without the guilt, she would just handle it.
That leads me to ask about your daughter. You’ve described your relationship with your mother. What is the relationship with your daughter like? And did that inform how you played your role in Crazy Rich Asians?
No matter what role you’re playing, even if you are a mother or not playing a mother, somehow some part of it will be informed by your real life.
Some roles are easier to get into, simply because of the parallels that it has with your real life and I will say that Kerry Chu is one of those. I’m also, I have a great relation with my ex- husband. He’s one of my best friends! But you know, life nowadays is very much just about me and my daughter. I’ve always had a great relationship with her and incredible chemistry. And trusting that chemistry is something I brought into Kerry Chu and Rachel. Don’t question! Don’t question and don’t study why you are so close to your daughter. You just are.
I can imagine that Kerry Chu just dropped everything when Nick called her and asked her to come. I can totally see her doing that because I don’t question the fact that the number one priority is my kid. And if my kid needs me, I will go there. But I brought up my child to have a life of her own. I told her that my responsibility was to equip you with everything you need to make it on your own. Because I’m not going to be around forever. When you’re out there living your own life — I’m going to live my own life too and I’m not going to feel guilty about it!
When growing up, she was used to me performing in a play, which meant that I wasn’t going to be home every night for about 3 weeks. And I’m not going to have weekends with her. But that’s fine! That’s my work, I love my work — don’t take my work away from me!
I love that how you’ve been able to do both. That it doesn’t have to be either/or in this situation. I loved how you encouraged her to live her own life so you could have your own as well.
There are some people, like my best friend, who are absolutely happy devoting their entire lives to their kids growing up. At the same token, by the time there kids are grown up, you must also not back out of your contract! But you must be aware of the contract you make for yourself. If you want your kid to have a corporate career, you must be prepared for the ramifications that come with that!
I was curious about talking about parenting styles and the different representation styles about the westernization of values. Is there that similar dialogue…
In Singapore?
How does that come up?
I think that dialogue is an ongoing thing in Singapore. Where East and West is in constant flux. A lot of the young people I know for example, only eat grilled cheese, hamburgers, drink lots of milk, I can’t drink more than a little bit of milk in my coffee, honestly. This portion is too big right now.
I come from another generation. And a lot of times. I will look at young people in Singapore and yes, I will long for greater amalgamation of East and West. Maybe it’s in my character. I always feel that the way forward is to just accept.
Look, when I grew up, there was not even a pager. I am 55, I have seen the onslaught of pagers, laptops, computers. Kids nowadays are born with a phone in their hands, but that is their reality. But it’s not my reality! You have to accept! The only people you can really control are within your family. There’s my daughter. So for example, how I try to balance things. Meal times no one is on their phone! It’s not a hard and fast rule. But it is a way that we’ve grown up. So it’s not automatic that people bring their phones.
Is there importance in making sure your daughter understands your heritage and history and background? Is that a big conversation with you and your daughter?
No. I think a lot of it is because it’s not a big part of the conversation within my family. There are certain traditions. Rather than it being communicated in a verbal form, it is communicated in festivals, occasions, behavior and action. For example — every Monday my entire family comes and eats at my mom’s. Chinese New Year’s, first day, we always do this. Second day we always do this. There are certain foods that are served on a particular occasion and it’s just like that.
During Chinese New Years, all the cousins get to see each other. They don’t get to see each other a lot. Their relationships are fostered by the fact that if all the parents can come together on this day and be with each other, then the young ones and come together and do the same thing! Not because we told them that this is Chinese New Year, that this what we do and how we do things.
A lot of my understanding of my Vietnamese culture and history, is yes, learning by doing, but also through digging up myself. I did do a lot of my own research to find out more about the things they couldn’t talk about. I realize now that they didn’t think about explaining certain customs to me because for them, it was so normal and such a ritual. For example, my parents put on this entertainment variety show, called Paris by Night, on the background of all family parties. Later, I found out that was their way of trying to get us to understand Vietnamese culture, celebrate it, and see what it’s like for ourselves. Whether that worked, I don’t know. (laughs)
What’s Paris by Night? I’m so curious now!
It’s a large live production that has comedy, modern pop Vietnamese songs, traditional music, that is very nostalgic for pre-war Vietnam. Every Vietnamese household has put it on, almost every Vietnamese American grew up with it, I kid you not.
That’s very interesting! I want to go watch it now!
It’s a popular hit among my parents’ generation.
Now let me ask you something. So do they speak Vietnamese to you?
Yes.
Can you speak to them?
Yes.
Now that is very powerful. That is your X-Men ability. That is very powerful.
My parents made sure to put me in Vietnamese school when growing up.
That was clever of them.
It was a volunteer-based org where parents organized curriculum, volunteers teachers, and devised a whole school system, where their kids could learn grammar, writing, and history on a Sunday afternoon. It’s things like that that I look at how hard my parents worked to retain their culture and pass it on in an American setting.
So that’s even more than what I’ve done for my own child.
Did you feel you needed to do more?
You know how people think people think Chinese is just Mandarin? Well, I’m Teochew. I can speak some Teochew. Well, my mom is Hokkien, another dialect, and married my dad. My dad’s family was more powerful. So my mom had to sit down and learn his dialect. So there’s a hierarchy in languages.
By the time it came to my generation, you know we are a colonial city, the good schools were run by the English nuns. I went to a convent. English is my first language. So we just started speaking English. I could understand a little bit of Teochew but as Singapore developed and became a cosmopolitan city, and English became their business transaction language, and then suddenly all the dialects are falling by the wayside.
And because of that, I also was not diligent in bringing up my daughter with that dialect. But whenever I am with my mom, I do speak Teochew with her. My daughter has been able to pick up a little smidgen of that but many times, my daughter would tell me “why didn't you teach me!”
In school, you had to take a second language that was prevalent in Singapore so I can speak conversational Mandarin.
Are you fluent in Teochew?
I’m not fluent, my vocabulary is not great, but my sound is good! I sometimes wish I knew it more only for more romantic purposes. But with my daughter, I communicate with her in English. The crux of my relationship with her isn’t based on tradition.
That’s interesting because for some families, the crux of it is based on tradition and that’s an interesting distinction to make.
Absolutely! My relationship with my daughter, our closeness is based on trust. Acceptance. And enjoyment. We really enjoy each other! We’re really close! She would say, “I would prefer to travel with you over anyone else!”
That’s beautiful! I would love to talk to you about your journey into this career, but first a question from a colleague, how do you identify as an actress? As a Singaporean actress? An Asian actress? Just an actress?
In Singapore the Chinese are the majority. I empathize with the Asian diaspora, and the feelings that come with immigrants, but that is not my experience. Even though my grandfather was an immigrant, coming from China into Singapore, but it was still an Asian immigrants society. And there’s such a mix of other races: Malay, Indian and mix of any. And there’s a huge influx of foreign workers — people from everyone because Singapore is so cosmopolitan.
Because most of my career has been based on Singapore. They have never been about, I’m casting you cause you’re Asian. It’s never because of that. It’s just because you’re suitable for the role.
So we’ve done Shakespeare! So I can play Lady Capulet because it suits me! And it’s a double edged sword because the more you keep trying to harp on a category on Asian American the more you are defining this category. It’s just like if you’re gay — do you go out for all gay roles? And you’re forcing people to see yourself as just gay. In real life — I’m a mother, I’m this and that. That’s ideal.
But the world is not like that. We kinda do have to categorize. For right now, I would categorize myself as an international actor because I am not American. But I will, necessarily, will have to get the right visa that will enable me to get roles here. Then I will have to play by certain rules of this culture because I have to respect them. In America it’s different. In Singapore, it’s an Asian immigrant society.
But you have to pay respect to cultural climate. If you come to America and you don’t want to be called an Asian American actress, stay at home! Stay in Singapore! Because that’s the culture here. You cannot just come in here and go like “hey I want to be this!” That’s just ignoring hundreds and hundreds of history and culture.
It’s understanding how each country and their own racial relations behind each country is very intricate and unique due to each others political histories.
Absolutely! It’s very funny because the diversity issue, all our English language television and films are all multiracial. But we never sell it as that. That’s never how Singapore markets it. We never sell it as a “most diverse cast” because that is our reality.
But becoming friends with Asian American actors and seeing how American films are done, it is real. The emotions and the challenges and the hardships that Asian American immigrants feel and it is very real. And you must respect them. And until you know details. And until you give everybody a voice and chance, and how they got here — it’s just not enough to just talk about it under Asian American or immigrant.
It’s not enough to cover it in just a word called “diversity.” It’s just not enough to capture all the ways people are carving out the world and all the different ways people are trying to understand the world and find happiness and family. It’s too simple to say “immigrants are this and that.” It’s not fair to bucket it in one word.
What is your family history like?
My grandfather from my father’s side is from Guangdong, China. And his story is very simple. He worked bloody hard. And he was bloody smart. Like many immigrant stories, he got into the trading industry and then he became very successful because he was one of those people who was quite well known actually.
And that’s why I identified with Crazy Rich Asians because of the type of family I came from. I think Kevin came from a very similar family like a Singaporean Chinese Family.
My grandfather came, was clever. One of his advantages was linguistically, he was very proficient in English and as well as in Chinese. And he was a businessman. He became a very successful business man selling rubber, copper, that sort of stuff.
Then he got into banking and that’s how his career took off. He was a part of this smaller bank and it was subsided into a larger bank and is now one of the larger bank that exists in Singapore to this day.
Do you come from a family of bankers?
Yes. Bankers. Entirely bankers.
So what was that conversation like when you said you wanted to get into entertainment?
No problem, because of my generation. For my grandfather, like in a lot of rich, Chinese families, they didn’t bring up their kids. They don’t even talk to their kids. They go to work in a car that’s run by a driver. And the matriarch of their family has servants for their kids. And my father was basically brought up hardly ever seeing his family. It’s very normal. You can Google it!
It is very normal for these large Chinese families to be like that. They are run by servants, you know? So that was my father’s generation. His parents were basically not around. They were busy folks. The mother, the matriarch wouldn’t necessarily work, but had her servants do things.
However, there is a big jump in my father’s generation. In his generation, the prosperity of Singapore really surged forward so from a fishing port to one of the largest ports in the world, and trading which means a lot of different monies and businesses came to Singapore. Suddenly the Asian values are pushed aside and you just got to go with how the world is going. Since Singapore is so small, it changed so quickly.
So by the time I was growing up, my father was continuing the family business, and it was already so successful. He didn’t build it, he just had to maintain it so it was easier for him. But was a good and kind man. A great father.
So, he had a relaxation based on the fact that his family had a successful, ongoing sort of, business. And he had a relaxation with regards to how he wanted to bring his kids. So he was a lot more engaged with us. He worked a lot less. He only had to maintain the business, as opposed to build the business. He was all about fun and joy and let’s do this, let’s do that! He was very liberal. And that’s how I grew up. So both my brothers and myself had a very liberal, accepting, non pressurizing childhood. Yes we were caned, but we were caned for rollerblading over the carpet, not necessarily not studying hard enough. No, no, no. It was very different.
I remember reading in another interview how you said it was great seeing how Singapore was portrayed in Crazy Rich Asians. It displayed how beautiful and fun Singapore it is. In American media, Singapore is portrayed very differently.
Yeah, I do! I feel like all you hear is that one story about how you get thrown into jail for chewing gum. I’m glad Crazy Rich Asians opened up not just seeing Singapore, but seeing lifestyles, and music! The soundtrack of CRA is so great! All art should be consumed to open up people’s mind and people’s hearts.
Even though it’s a romantic comedy, don’t judge it for being a romantic comedy. Pop songs, The Beatles, have opened up English culture to the entire world. Don’t judge, you know?
I know you’ve also done a variety of work in the entertainment field, from TV, to theater, to film. Do you have a preference?
My preference is good work. No matter if it’s three lines, or it’s three scenes, it doesn’t have to be a movie that made 19 million in two weekends, though crazy for Crazy Rich Asians though, right?! The role just has to be good!
Crazy Rich Asians has opened up a host of international agents that have wanted to see me. My daughter is all grown up, my mortgage is all paid, I’m free as a bird! I’m on my own. And I want to see what other sources of work there is and where it can take me whether it’s Paris, LA, or Turkey.
About 5 years ago, it would be very hard for me to get a role where I have to be away from Singapore for a year. But now I can since my daughter is all grown up! So when I talk to the agents now, it has a sense of freedom.
Crazy Rich Asians came at this time in my life. So all these Hollywood and UK agents are knocking at my door. But Crazy Rich Asians could have come 7 years before and it could have been completely different. It had to happen right now when I’m free so I can accept this.
With Crazy Rich Asians, what were the most surprising moments within filming this?
What surprised me the most was the ease of the machinery. For example, a lot of times, when you’re working with smaller projects — this is easy because it’s small. Of course I’m not a producer, I felt as an actor, I felt as loved and protected and taken care of with a group of people that didn’t know me at all. In Singapore — every team you’re working with, you’re going out with somebody, dating somebody, married. Everybody knows somebody. But here it’s a new thing.
What was the most fun you had shooting?
The cast is really fun. People like Jimmy O Yang. Ken Jeong, Ronnie Chang, Nico, I went to see them in my first ever stand-up, put together in conjunction with Crazy Rich Asians. I had never seen stand-up like that, and their talent was just — I bring them up because comedy is impossible to do. But wow! Their level of talent is amazing. It blew my mind. They are funny all the time! On our WhatsApp group, they are funny all the time.
There is so much talent. I love being surrounded by the talent — not just from the cast, but the camera people, the sound people, the costuming. They are just as important.
This is a previous question from our last interviewee, Katherine Ho. She did the cover of “Yellow” by Coldplay. She wanted to ask you, “Did you have a chemistry read with Constance and was it surprising to you?”
Everything you see about Constance in Crazy Rich Asians is — she is such a talent. For example, she is one of those actresses, in the scene in the bedroom, she is emotionally there at every take. She’s present and an excellent actress and I know even without Crazy Rich Asians she’s going to go far. She just oozes talent out of every pore. I really look forward to seeing where she goes because she’s an excellent actress and she’s funny and could do a great drama.
People were really curious about that death stare you had with Eleanor Young.
“Don’t mess with my kid!”
How was it filming that scene?
It was so easy because Michelle Yeoh is such a queeeeeeeen. She is such a queen. She is a glorious and gorgeous human being inside and out. Being on set with her is knowing you have a queen who is compassionate and beautiful and intelligent and talented. You feel so safe. She has this way — she’s so light! She’s just like, “Hello! Hi! Hey do you want this! Do you want this! Do you need water! My assistant is going out to get drinks — do you want one?”
She is like elegance personified. She’s very present and talented. And I love her! But one must not forget, the main manipulator of that scene, of everything good who has a big hand in it — is Jon M. Chu. Who would whisper in my ear, you know, “Your stare! It’s not ‘fuck off’. You have to layer it with a bunch of things.” It’s Jon as well, who has a very strong relationship with his mother. The layers you see in this scene had to do with Jon. It has to do with everyone around us.
It takes a village. And for one stare to get that, you need the camera man! I loved my camera man and the team. To make sure to capture it. They all take care of it! You step here, you look here — so they captured it all. I love it. As an actress, I enjoy this stuff. The feeling on set is that you’re very supported by everyone.
How was it working with Jon Chu?
He’s the best company. He’s an excellent director. Every actor will be very lucky to be able to work with Jon.
Tan Kheng Hua is a Singaporean actress, who recently appeared in Crazy Rich Asians. See her in that film, or find her on Twitter.
